bigway 4 #1 August 2, 2006 There are so many threads going on about this argument. I had a great time there but i also think it is the most dangerous dropzone i could ever imagine. I just saw this awesom pic. My mate was on this load and the lightning was hitting the landing area while he was under canopy after jumping from the Pitts. 10 minutes before this photo was taken manifest was warning us of a level 5 storm coming in and there was a tornado warning. I could not believe that they let the jet load then go up after this warning was made. About 10 seconds after this canopy landed the wind and rain was so strong that it snapped wood in half on many tents. How can anyone say that this event is safe? There was no dz briefing, no landing patterns, and no idea what planes were dropping after you. I had a student still on radio exiting an aircraft before us with an 8 way and then our 9 way were freeflying after him. The event is awesome and a great time, very very cool people and some awesome jumps made, safe it was not. We were let out of a balloon where there was nothing but 8 foot corn to land in, the one house we could have made it to was full of power lines. there was nothing else there but corn and bean fields. Another instance was all loads were called off for weather reasons and then 10 minutes later they called the jet load to jump but kept other loads on the ground. Jumping out of the jet is a free for all.... I was in sit and then thought shit there will be rw in the sky in front of me and there they were with my 6 way screaming past them in sit. All this event needs is a safety officer there. Someone making as rule for landing patterns, someone making an area for students and a seperate area for swoopers. Golf carts should not be buzzing all over the PLA. I watched a tandem land inside a tent and break the tent wood, the same tent a tandem landed on top of. Another p-erson landed on top of a tent and then someone goes and gets killed by hitting a truck. Sort the shit out, just get a safety officer, make some rules, at the moment it is a free for all where everybody expects someone to die. I was at eloy last xmas, safe boogie, more jumpers than the wffc and there was no deaths expected. Here is a pic that should be viewed. If you say this is a safe boogie this pic will prove you wrong. Bear in mind this lightning was going on for about 10 minutes before this photo was taken, and before this load took off. 2 minutes before this photo was taken there was a whole jet load under canopy in the sky. My friend landed before this canopy and he saw lightning hitting the PLA and the runway. http://www.freefall.com/webcam/2006pics/ground/index19.html Third photo on that page. .Karnage Krew Gear Store . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Croc 0 #2 August 2, 2006 Thunderstorms and tornado warnings are common in the midwest this time of year. I went to the WFFC this year and so did many of my friends. I didn't hear any negative reports except that it rained a bit more than usual."Here's a good specimen of my own wisdom. Something is so, except when it isn't so." Charles Fort, commenting on the many contradictions of astronomy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
indyz 1 #3 August 2, 2006 Personal responsibility, man. I don't think racing thunderstorms is a good idea, but some people are ok with it. It's not like any reasonable person can't predict the effects of getting caught in a t-storm. If they still want to go, then whatever. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bigway 4 #4 August 3, 2006 They should not be ALLOWED to go. The operators have to take some sort of responsibility. .Karnage Krew Gear Store . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jdatc 0 #5 August 3, 2006 QuoteThey should not be ALLOWED to go. The operators have to take some sort of responsibility. I was desperately firing off shots with my rebel trying to get a shot like that but I failed. I only got lightning or canopies. Missed getting both. Anyway, I think we don't want to have the operaters take responsibilty. As the other thread states we need to be a self policing group.... But it's stuff like this that pisses me off when someone goes running to the FAA about a BASE rig that almost got on a balloon. No one says a word to everyone who got out of the jet on that last load. And since I was up in the glider while the jet was taking off, I can tell you without fail what the ceiling was..... But, We can't have things both ways. We can't say these people need to take some responsibility for this, and then those people should be responsible for that. It is up to us to be responsible for ourselves. The same goes for safety infractions. if you aren't going to talk to all the people breaking the rules, why talk to one. That's hypocritical in my eyes. Apathy man. it kills everything. Fuck it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rosalita 0 #6 August 3, 2006 You have a choice to say no I do not want to go on this load! You need to be responsible for yourself! To many people expect everyone else to take care of them. We are Adults!!!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 15 #7 August 3, 2006 The balloon is a crap shoot where you are going to land. Everyone knowsd that before you ever get on a balloon to jump it. I've been faced with Corn, beans, a small yard and power lines on every one of my balloon jumps and thats the priceyou pay to make one. If there is a storm coming in don't jump. If you want to go up with a storm right there its your own fault.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bob.dino 0 #8 August 3, 2006 Remember that bigway mainly jumps in the UK, where things are rather more regulated. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
divnswoop 0 #9 August 3, 2006 QuoteThey should not be ALLOWED to go. The operators have to take some sort of responsibility. As much as I agree we have to be big boys and girls....if something happens you know the backlash that will result towards the dz and plane owners. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
normiss 622 #10 August 3, 2006 none given the waivers we sign! unless an attorney gets involved anyway! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nicknitro71 0 #11 August 3, 2006 Dude, nobody forces you to jump between t-storms. I sat on my ass for many loads because I thought it was too fucked up to jump while many inexperienced jumpers where going up and down. It's your call man and just your responsibility.Memento Audere Semper 903 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #12 August 3, 2006 As I've said before WFFC is a fucking zoo and always will be.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,400 #13 August 3, 2006 > They should not be ALLOWED to go. The operators have to take some sort of responsibility. Operators have a responsibility to operate the planes safely. Organizers have a responsibility to plan safe formation skydives. Jumpers have a responsibility to jump safely. Wingsuiters have a responsibility to plan their patterns safely. The one responsibility the WFFC staff _does_ have (IMO) is to inform jumpers what sort of environment they will be facing. I've tried to do that; I've written several "How to survive the WFFC" articles (I think they put one of them in the 'program' now.) But this doesn't even sound like something that's specific to the WFFC. Every skydiver knows you shouldn't jump near a thunderstorm. If they don't, they're lacking some very critical education, and it will burn them (no pun intended) at any DZ, not just Rantoul. BTW this is one of the things I wrote: --------------------- Summer is upon us, and soon the hordes will descend upon Rantoul for this year's World Freefall Convention. Lots of people will jump. Unfortunately, some will get hurt, and some may die. How can you make sure it's not you? Presented below are some tips to help keep you alive at the biggest skydiving boogie in the world. 1. Do only one new thing at a time! Many jumpers show up and are awed by the array of canopy demos, big ways, new planes (with new exits) and new styles of flying. Indeed, the WFFC is a great place to try new stuff and jump new planes. But showing up, grabbing a demo rig with a tiny main, getting on a new type of airplane, and trying head down for the first time is not such a good idea. Want to try a new rig? Great! But first make a few jumps with your old rig. See if the canopy traffic near the landing area is OK with you. If it gets a little too intense, you're still in good shape, because you are familiar with your canopy, and are in a better position to handle lots of traffic. After your first few jumps on the new canopy, you can make a better decision whether a smaller canopy is a good idea, or if you want to land that smaller canopy in an alternate (i.e. larger, lower traffic) area. 2. Make small changes. If you do decide to jump that demo rig, talk to the folks at the canopy tent and get a canopy they recommend. I would hesitate to downsize more than one size at a time at the WFFC, no matter how good you think you are. 3. Know who you're jumping with. You're generally not going to know everyone on the dive, but at least make an attempt to not to jump with all unknowns. Skydiving is still small enough so that your friends probably know their friends, so ask around to determine their skill level. Ask them how many jumps they have, but be aware that this isn't always indicative of skills, and people sometimes lie about their number of jumps (which is really stupid.) The WFFC organizers are a good option here, since they have a lot of experience matching people and planning safe dives. Even if you don't want to jump with them, you can ask them for recommendations on other people. Chances are one of the LO's knows them or has jumped with them at some point. Also, avoid jumping with people who seem to have taken an excessive amount of drugs recently. All too often I've noticed drunk or drugged up skydivers do stupid things and get hurt. Which leads to: 4. Jump with a clear head. The WFFC has some excellent parties. But if you were up all night, maybe it would be a good idea to get a little sleep before jumping. Adrenalin can't always make up for a hangover. 5. Plan your outs. The main landing area by manifest is popular, but a lot of people have gotten hurt trying to land there. If dense canopy traffic worries you, land somewhere else. Also, if you open and you're far out, pick your outs at 2000 feet, not at 50 feet. You don't have too many options left at that altitude. 6. Learn to flat turn and flare turn! This is really important. You will be in big crowds of jumpers flying back. At some point, someone will cut you off. If it happens at 50 feet you have three choices: make a hard toggle turn (and plow into the ground) run into them or flat turn away. Two examples: Four years back I watched them life flight someone out after he had turned way too low. The story was the same - he never did hook turns, yet here he was turning hard at 50 feet because someone cut him off. Honestly, i think he would have been better off colliding with the other jumper at 30 feet and falling the rest of the way. At least his canopy would have had a better chance at slowing him down. On the same day, one of the load organizers was landing in a bean field when a pickup truck pulled right in front of her. She flat turned away and flared immediately afterwards. Total damage - muddy knees on her jumpsuit. (The people in the truck laughed and drove away, without even offering her a ride. Ah, Quincy locals.) So be sure you can both flat turn (turn with minimal loss of altitude) and flare turn (turn right and left in the flare) before you get to the WFFC - it can be a lifesaver. The WFFC can be a dangerous place. But with a little planning and some common sense, you can spend your time at Rantoul jumping and partying rather than taking the "other" helicopter ride. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nathaniel 0 #14 August 3, 2006 Quote There was no dz briefing, no landing patterns, and no idea what planes were dropping after you. Not sure about this year, but in previous years they have held meetings to go over the basics. And there's no shortage of experienced jumpers, not to mention volunteers, staff and organizers on the grounds to ask if you have questions or concerns. QuoteI had a student still on radio exiting an aircraft before us with an 8 way and then our 9 way were freeflying after him. Load order isn't everything, the order can be manipulated if you adjust the time between groups accordingly. It's worked out OK at the WFFC because the jumpruns are fixed and the students land short of where the other groups get out. Likewise wingsuits get out before everyone else at the WFFC, which is the opposite of the norm at most DZs. IMO the jumpruns at the WFFC are about as well planned as could be expected. Quote We were let out of a balloon where there was nothing but 8 foot corn to land in, the one house we could have made it to was full of power lines. there was nothing else there but corn and bean fields. Corn is rather safe to land in, as are beans. You can be confident in that area that the ground is soft and has been tilled. On the other hand, if you don't feel safe you are never under an obligation to jump. The balloon pilot rides the balloon down, I'm sure he'd take you down with him.My advice is to do what your parents did; get a job, sir. The bums will always lose. Do you hear me, Lebowski? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
normiss 622 #15 August 3, 2006 Likewise wingsuits get out before everyone else at the WFFC, which is the opposite of the norm at most DZs. not true bro...i was on almost every wingie jump..we ALWAYS got out last....even before the crew guys...just like normal...including the jet...and every other craft there... this all comes down to us BEING LICENSED to jump on our own...that means making the decision on your own...in my opnion...if you need someone else to make your jump call or decision..,maybe you SHOULDN'T BE AT THE WFFC?!?!?!?!?!? just my .02 worth anyway... I never saw it as unsafe...there are sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo many outs in Rantoul for Christ's sake! I landed in soccer fields, football fields, the city pool area, side of corn fields... Come on man!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rasmack 0 #16 August 3, 2006 Hey Gareth I know you mean well by this but I thinkyou may be missing the ball a little here. When I first arrived at the WFFC I didn't like the winds, so I stayed on the ground. When the first thunderstorm started I sat my ass down at the first sound of thunder. These are easy decisions that everyone should have been raised to make by themselves. It is not the job of "the man" to tell you when to stand down. You shouldn't need an FAA hold to tell you when you probably shouldn't get on a plane. As for Mark hitting the truck I think it is sort of a low blow. It was parked next to a tent and he would have been dead even if it hadn't been there. Also I fail to see how it can be the responsibility of the organizers that a guy with two out thinks he can control the canopies only to find out that he is wrong. All that being said there is a certain amount of truth to the lack of briefings. There are no organized briefings only broad agreements that you sort of have to pick up. I never had any problems though, apart from having to fly in in half brakes sometimes to hold my place in the pattern. Sorry I didn't make it to the party tonight.HF #682, Team Dirty Sanchez #227 “I simply hate, detest, loathe, despise, and abhor redundancy.” - Not quite Oscar Wilde... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
normiss 622 #17 August 3, 2006 Yahtzee!!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mx757 4 #18 August 3, 2006 Bigway do me a favor next year STAY HOME IN THE UK! you've whined and bitched about the WFFC a month before it ever started, no you whineing cause we didn't shut it down when Mark Foster screwed up a landing and killed himself (canopy pilot error) now your whining the WFFC is unsafe.... stay home! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pincheck 0 #19 August 3, 2006 Sorry got to agree if you can't decided for yourselfs at your experiance level then your friend should not have went,no one forces you onto the plane. You are still the only person who is repsonsable for your safety and if you think you or your friends jumped in dangerous conditions,well it down to your own bad judgement. I also agree with Mike,you have whined constantly Dude. Give over you seemed to enjoy it so why bitch about it after. Billy-Sonic Haggis Flickr-Fun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Suavel 0 #20 August 3, 2006 And for the record, I got at least some semblance of a breifing when I showed up in registration. They said when jumpers with lower numbers(I had 52 at the time) show up, they like to show them the overhead photograph and give them a rundown of aircraft and skydiver landing patterns. The only reason I used "some semblance of a breifing" is because I don't know how intense you expect a breifing to be. What I was given was great for me, and the worst injury I got was a slightly skinned knee from landing on asphalt. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Buried 0 #21 August 3, 2006 QuoteLikewise wingsuits get out before everyone else at the WFFC, which is the opposite of the norm at most DZs. Quote not true bro...i was on almost every wingie jump..we ALWAYS got out last....even before the crew guys...just like normal...including the jet...and every other craft there... yeah this year was a little different since planes wheren't turning as fast as they could or like previous years and jump runs were not really done in parallel this yr. It was still busy and all. the reason why we switch it around b/c the one of the first WS jumps we did the uppers were strong and we got pushed over some other people for part of the jump (when going out first). as for the jet, of course going out last is a fine option, but really as long as you are on the second pass you are ok. i ended up going first out on the second pass and couldn't have been more safe. got some great visuals too of the plane and people falling out Where is my fizzy-lifting drink? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rasmack 0 #22 August 3, 2006 QuoteAnd for the record, I got at least some semblance of a breifing when I showed up in registration... In all fairness, I asked at registration and the rigger at gear check promptly pulled out a photo of the place and told me about local rules.HF #682, Team Dirty Sanchez #227 “I simply hate, detest, loathe, despise, and abhor redundancy.” - Not quite Oscar Wilde... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites winsor 186 #23 August 3, 2006 QuoteThere are so many threads going on about this argument. I had a great time there but i also think it is the most dangerous dropzone i could ever imagine. Your imagination is limited. Look up Ted Mayfield. The reason jumping near a storm was not dangerous to me is that I was on the ground. One reason I did not impact like Mark Foster is that I execute comparatively conservative landings. Even with all the regs you might want to put on the sport, it will still be a somewhat Darwinian activity. I prefer that the sport should remain in the realm of personal responsibility, rather than one where safety decisions are made by either quorum or committee. For the groups that jump with us ( the Load Organizers, Tent 3 in particular), the Convention has historically been quite safe. This goes as well for the people who follow the recommendations contained in articles by Gary Peek, Bill von Novak and me - of which there are rather a few. If someone wants to try to get one last jump in before a squall hits, I would advise against it but hey, best of luck. If you want to jump when winds are 20 kts and squirrely, I will not stop you. I will, however, scratch from the load in a heartbeat. My point here is that the WFFC is not inherently more dangerous than any other event of similar size. Such apparent danger is typically the result of people who wish to prove Booth's Law. If you want to jump in an environment with more rules than you could shake a stick at, you don't even have to leave the UK. You also get really shitty weather in the bargain. In any event, I had a great time, and was not worried that I would screw myself into the ground or get sucked up into a towering cumulonimbus. YMMV Blue skies, Winsor Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Remster 24 #24 August 3, 2006 No one said any DZ was safe. Its skydiving. You're used to the UK where safety officers almost hold your hand through the entire day. The US, and especially the WFFC are a lot more about individual responsability then the UK skydiving scene is. QuoteSort the shit out, just get a safety officer, make some rules, This is what many people who come to the WFFC dont want. If you dont like it, dont go.Remster Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites carbonezone 0 #25 August 3, 2006 QuoteBigway do me a favor next year STAY HOME IN THE UK! you've whined and bitched about the WFFC a month before it ever started, I SECOND THAT REMARK <> Tami Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 Next Page 1 of 4 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
mx757 4 #18 August 3, 2006 Bigway do me a favor next year STAY HOME IN THE UK! you've whined and bitched about the WFFC a month before it ever started, no you whineing cause we didn't shut it down when Mark Foster screwed up a landing and killed himself (canopy pilot error) now your whining the WFFC is unsafe.... stay home! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pincheck 0 #19 August 3, 2006 Sorry got to agree if you can't decided for yourselfs at your experiance level then your friend should not have went,no one forces you onto the plane. You are still the only person who is repsonsable for your safety and if you think you or your friends jumped in dangerous conditions,well it down to your own bad judgement. I also agree with Mike,you have whined constantly Dude. Give over you seemed to enjoy it so why bitch about it after. Billy-Sonic Haggis Flickr-Fun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Suavel 0 #20 August 3, 2006 And for the record, I got at least some semblance of a breifing when I showed up in registration. They said when jumpers with lower numbers(I had 52 at the time) show up, they like to show them the overhead photograph and give them a rundown of aircraft and skydiver landing patterns. The only reason I used "some semblance of a breifing" is because I don't know how intense you expect a breifing to be. What I was given was great for me, and the worst injury I got was a slightly skinned knee from landing on asphalt. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Buried 0 #21 August 3, 2006 QuoteLikewise wingsuits get out before everyone else at the WFFC, which is the opposite of the norm at most DZs. Quote not true bro...i was on almost every wingie jump..we ALWAYS got out last....even before the crew guys...just like normal...including the jet...and every other craft there... yeah this year was a little different since planes wheren't turning as fast as they could or like previous years and jump runs were not really done in parallel this yr. It was still busy and all. the reason why we switch it around b/c the one of the first WS jumps we did the uppers were strong and we got pushed over some other people for part of the jump (when going out first). as for the jet, of course going out last is a fine option, but really as long as you are on the second pass you are ok. i ended up going first out on the second pass and couldn't have been more safe. got some great visuals too of the plane and people falling out Where is my fizzy-lifting drink? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rasmack 0 #22 August 3, 2006 QuoteAnd for the record, I got at least some semblance of a breifing when I showed up in registration... In all fairness, I asked at registration and the rigger at gear check promptly pulled out a photo of the place and told me about local rules.HF #682, Team Dirty Sanchez #227 “I simply hate, detest, loathe, despise, and abhor redundancy.” - Not quite Oscar Wilde... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
winsor 186 #23 August 3, 2006 QuoteThere are so many threads going on about this argument. I had a great time there but i also think it is the most dangerous dropzone i could ever imagine. Your imagination is limited. Look up Ted Mayfield. The reason jumping near a storm was not dangerous to me is that I was on the ground. One reason I did not impact like Mark Foster is that I execute comparatively conservative landings. Even with all the regs you might want to put on the sport, it will still be a somewhat Darwinian activity. I prefer that the sport should remain in the realm of personal responsibility, rather than one where safety decisions are made by either quorum or committee. For the groups that jump with us ( the Load Organizers, Tent 3 in particular), the Convention has historically been quite safe. This goes as well for the people who follow the recommendations contained in articles by Gary Peek, Bill von Novak and me - of which there are rather a few. If someone wants to try to get one last jump in before a squall hits, I would advise against it but hey, best of luck. If you want to jump when winds are 20 kts and squirrely, I will not stop you. I will, however, scratch from the load in a heartbeat. My point here is that the WFFC is not inherently more dangerous than any other event of similar size. Such apparent danger is typically the result of people who wish to prove Booth's Law. If you want to jump in an environment with more rules than you could shake a stick at, you don't even have to leave the UK. You also get really shitty weather in the bargain. In any event, I had a great time, and was not worried that I would screw myself into the ground or get sucked up into a towering cumulonimbus. YMMV Blue skies, Winsor Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Remster 24 #24 August 3, 2006 No one said any DZ was safe. Its skydiving. You're used to the UK where safety officers almost hold your hand through the entire day. The US, and especially the WFFC are a lot more about individual responsability then the UK skydiving scene is. QuoteSort the shit out, just get a safety officer, make some rules, This is what many people who come to the WFFC dont want. If you dont like it, dont go.Remster Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
carbonezone 0 #25 August 3, 2006 QuoteBigway do me a favor next year STAY HOME IN THE UK! you've whined and bitched about the WFFC a month before it ever started, I SECOND THAT REMARK <> Tami Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
