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DB Cooper

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4 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

Nobody said they were designed to fail in 6 months, you made it up. 

Not sure why you feel the need to do that.

ABA and Federal Reserve straps are made from white kraft paper. One of the strongest papers when dry but weakens significantly when wet..

It can degrade in weeks depending on environment, 3 months is max outside and wet..

I have no idea what type of glue was used in 1971.

Brown or white? Contact glue or lickable? Any lettering on the straps - which bank?  How many straps used on the $200k ? And did Cooper pack money or newspapers as insulation inside his cloths before jumping? What type and brand of underwear?   

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9 hours ago, ParrotheadVol said:

Very cool indeed. I thought the first one looked too young. I wish they would have done the Schaffner sketch that is often compared to Braden.

Yes, I agree and actually thought the same for the second one, that while there was some aging, it didn't give the 45ish type feel.  Not sure if those were real people or just computer generated.  

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14 hours ago, JAGdb said:

thought this was pretty cool, they morph the composites into live faces:

 

I saw that vid,, sketch A was no good, so toss it, the vid images look too young and not particularly swarthy/latin,, the hair doesn't match the witnesses of curly, wavy, marceled..

 

 

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(edited)

Adding money bands to the money equation produces some notable results! Everyone including Tom Kaye may have to go back to the drawing board. Let's do some basic math.

$200,000 grouped by 100 bill PACKETS, = 100 packets each with a "bank type money band" = strap. So says Tina and H etal according to FJ. FlyJack may want to issue some amendments to this formula ?

FJ notes these straps comply with Federal Reserve and ABA standards as to size, kraft paper?, and weight. Those numbers are:    Standard size (7.75 x 1.25 In) at 100 g/sqm each.

Total amount of kraft paper in the the bag with the money is:  6.7 Square Feet of Kraft paper at 22.046 lbs of money straps alone in addition to the weight of the money!

Conclusions:  we now have to recalculate the weight of the money bag ?  Tom Kaye must go back to the drawing board. This affects conclusions about the 305 Flight Test. etc etc etc etc ... all because of Kraft papere money straps left out of people's original equations!  We must add 6.7 Square Feet and 22 lbs of Kraft paper to the environment of the money bag and the natural physics of that environment .... and a whole lot of people may now have egg on their faces  due to incompetence failing to Kraft paper money straps which FJ insists were on the DB Cooper money bundles ! But math does not lie in any event. ;)

Edited by georger

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33 minutes ago, georger said:

Adding money bands to the money equation produces some notable results! Everyone including Tom Kaye may have to go back to the drawing board. Let's do some basic math.

$200,000 grouped by 100 bill PACKETS, = 100 packets each with a "bank type money band" = strap. So says Tina and H etal according to FJ. FlyJack may want to issue some amendments to this formula ?

FJ notes these straps comply with Federal Reserve and ABA standards as to size, kraft paper?, and weight. Those numbers are:    Standard size (7.75 x 1.25 In) at 100 g/sqm each.

Total amount of kraft paper in the the bag with the money is:  6.7 Square Feet of Kraft paper at 22.046 lbs of money straps alone in addition to the weight of the money!

Conclusions:  we now have to recalculate the weight of the money bag ?  Tom Kaye must go back to the drawing board. This affects conclusions about the 305 Flight Test. etc etc etc etc ... all because of Kraft papere money straps left out of people's original equations!  We must add 6.7 Square Feet and 22 lbs of Kraft paper to the environment of the money bag and the natural physics of that environment .... and a whole lot of people may now have egg on their faces  due to incompetence failing to Kraft paper money straps which FJ insists were on the DB Cooper money bundles ! But math does not lie in any event. ;)

So you are saying 6 square feet of paper makes a huge difference?

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1 hour ago, georger said:

Adding money bands to the money equation produces some notable results! Everyone including Tom Kaye may have to go back to the drawing board. Let's do some basic math.

$200,000 grouped by 100 bill PACKETS, = 100 packets each with a "bank type money band" = strap. So says Tina and H etal according to FJ. FlyJack may want to issue some amendments to this formula ?

FJ notes these straps comply with Federal Reserve and ABA standards as to size, kraft paper?, and weight. Those numbers are:    Standard size (7.75 x 1.25 In) at 100 g/sqm each.

Total amount of kraft paper in the the bag with the money is:  6.7 Square Feet of Kraft paper at 22.046 lbs of money straps alone in addition to the weight of the money!

Conclusions:  we now have to recalculate the weight of the money bag ?  Tom Kaye must go back to the drawing board. This affects conclusions about the 305 Flight Test. etc etc etc etc ... all because of Kraft papere money straps left out of people's original equations!  We must add 6.7 Square Feet and 22 lbs of Kraft paper to the environment of the money bag and the natural physics of that environment .... and a whole lot of people may now have egg on their faces  due to incompetence failing to Kraft paper money straps which FJ insists were on the DB Cooper money bundles ! But math does not lie in any event. ;)

Georger goes into a funk mode now and then and plays the histrionics and exaggeration game for attention,, perhaps out of frustration, a cry for help or an attempt at sarcasm..

Best to just ignore..  clearly nonsensical.. 100 straps is obviously not 22 lbs.

 

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2 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

Georger goes into a funk mode now and then and plays the histrionics and exaggeration game for attention,, perhaps out of frustration, a cry for help or an attempt at sarcasm..

Best to just ignore..  clearly nonsensical.. 100 straps is obviously not 22 lbs.

 

God Bless Him!!!!!!

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(edited)
6 hours ago, Slim King said:

So you are saying 6 square feet of paper makes a huge difference?

Well it might make a difference. Keep in mind we are now assuming FJ is right - paper straps, without any confirmation of that. Do we just continue on the assumption FJ is right, to keep him happy and tranquil?  And that Ckret is wrong. FJ right. Ckret wrong! Headline in the Oregonian tomorrow!!

Mucklow recalls that at this time while the passengers were unloading, in an attempt at being humorous, she suggested to the hijacker ‘that there was obviously a lot of money in the bag and could she have some’! The hijacker agreed with her suggestion and reached in and took out one package of the money, denominations not recalled by Mucklow, and he handed the (single) bundle of money to her! Mucklow states that she laughed and gave the money back to the hijacker stating ‘she was not permitted to accept gratuities’, or words to that effect. In a similar vein Mucklow recalls that at one time during the flight the hijacker had pulled some single bills from his pocket (change from a $20 he was given earlier for a drink he had purchased) and attempted to (give the bills back) to tip the girls on the crew. (He was told then they could not accept tips). So again, they declined in compliance with company policy.       

took out one package of the money,     and he handed the (single) bundle of money to her!

No mention of paper straps there. Hmmmmmmmm. How did he get through the paper straps to "one bundle" without Tina seeing it and remembering? But when Tina utters the words 'bank type bands' - FJ uses that to indicate "straps of money and paper straps, and rubber bands "! Tina also refers to the money as "bundles" in another passage. So, straps of money because H said that, paper straps because FJ says that, rubber bands because people saw that, and bundles of money because several people and FJ said that, and Kraft paper ... and a partridge in a pear tree. 

Ive been through this debate before (with Carr and Ingram) and it took a week + to resolve. I wonder what Tom Kaye will say .......... in 2054!  Will Georger dissolve into jello waiting ? 

Extremism is as Extremism does.

Edited by georger

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(edited)

Federal Reserve Services re- bank strap regulations:  https://www.frbservices.org/resources/financial-services/cash/depositing-ordering/visual-reference-guide.html

Were money straps thinner in the 60s/70s than they are today ?  See previous posts at DZ about how the money for Cooper was prepared; stressed the time factor involved and security concerns. Ckret posted about this topic. Now we add bank straps also applied ! Note the Fed Reserve stipulation that  straps must not interfere with any rubber bands also being applied.

So far as I know the world has yet to identified one piece of a rubber band from the Ingram find. Tom Kaye looked but could find none, as I recall. Maybe rubber bands were just assumed but never used either? Can anyone show us a rubber band fragment today?     

What was Tina referring to when she referred to a "bundle" but also said "bank type bands" ?  The only way to find out is to ask her and that has not happened since the hijacking happened! Maybe it's time to finally ask her ? 

Screenshot 2022-08-18 at 23-22-10 Deposit Visual Reference Guide.png

Edited by georger

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(edited)
9 hours ago, georger said:

Well it might make a difference. Keep in mind we are now assuming FJ is right - paper straps, without any confirmation of that. Do we just continue on the assumption FJ is right, to keep him happy and tranquil?  And that Ckret is wrong. FJ right. Ckret wrong! Headline in the Oregonian tomorrow!!

Mucklow recalls that at this time while the passengers were unloading, in an attempt at being humorous, she suggested to the hijacker ‘that there was obviously a lot of money in the bag and could she have some’! The hijacker agreed with her suggestion and reached in and took out one package of the money, denominations not recalled by Mucklow, and he handed the (single) bundle of money to her! Mucklow states that she laughed and gave the money back to the hijacker stating ‘she was not permitted to accept gratuities’, or words to that effect. In a similar vein Mucklow recalls that at one time during the flight the hijacker had pulled some single bills from his pocket (change from a $20 he was given earlier for a drink he had purchased) and attempted to (give the bills back) to tip the girls on the crew. (He was told then they could not accept tips). So again, they declined in compliance with company policy.       

took out one package of the money,     and he handed the (single) bundle of money to her!

No mention of paper straps there. Hmmmmmmmm. How did he get through the paper straps to "one bundle" without Tina seeing it and remembering? But when Tina utters the words 'bank type bands' - FJ uses that to indicate "straps of money and paper straps, and rubber bands "! Tina also refers to the money as "bundles" in another passage. So, straps of money because H said that, paper straps because FJ says that, rubber bands because people saw that, and bundles of money because several people and FJ said that, and Kraft paper ... and a partridge in a pear tree. 

Ive been through this debate before (with Carr and Ingram) and it took a week + to resolve. I wonder what Tom Kaye will say .......... in 2054!  Will Georger dissolve into jello waiting ? 

Extremism is as Extremism does.

You can believe anything you want, if you think "bank type bands" means rubber bands that is up to you, if you reject all the other evidence that is up to you..

However, posting fake evidence is dishonest and misleading for forum readers.

The Campbell interview doc quote you posted was doctored from the original, it has errors and was edited.. somebody typed up a doctored version for some reason.. 

Here is the original Campbell interview from the FBI files... the part you cite does not exist in the original it was added by somebody recently in an unofficial document.

It is not clear if Tina took a single "packet" or a single "bundle" because the terms "small packages" and "package" was used. Elsewhere the FBI used the term package to refer to bundles, groups of packets. But package can describe both.

74034455_ScreenShot2022-08-18at9_40_39PM.png.743f2b7c8fa4af1e6cb936267af9dcdd.png

Edited by FLYJACK

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I know there are very few verifiable facts, so to speak, in this case.  For me, I am accepting as a given for now, that there were rubber bands.  The Ingram family have been steadfast that there were rubber bands when they found the money and that they basically crumbled away.  I don't see a reason that they would make that up, the only other possibility is that they saw something that they mistook for rubber bands, but I can't go there.  For folks that have spoken directly to the Ingram family, whether it be TK/EU or anyone else, have they gotten into specifics about how many rubber bands were observed ? Were there rubber bands around each of the 3 packets ?  Georger, you posted the below on dbcooperforum #3195:

'The money was badly decomposed and was held together with rubber bands which were so old they crumbled away immediately upon handling. They took the money home where they showed it to INGRAMs brother-in-law, who took the rest of the rubber bands off and was going to dry out the money and try to reclaim it. They had no idea at this time where the money had come from.'

This sounds like the Ingrams have provided some more details beyond just, "there were rubber bands".

I also think that Tina's "bank type bands" phrase, coupled with some of the other statements that Carr has made after speaking to the bank employee, would seem more likely to imply that there were also paper bands involved.   In my opinion, when someone sees a rubber band, I tend to think that they would use the word "rubber" when describing it to someone. The fact that Tina didn't say "bank type bands...that were rubber" or "bank type rubber bands" has me leaning toward the take that she saw paper bands.  The link that Georger posted had pictures of straps with paper in the middle and rubber bands on both edges...that's interesting.

I think it seems plausible by all of the discussions and parsing of words of the participants and witnesses, that there were probably both rubber bands and paper bands.  

All this said, what is the value in this discussion? I can think of at least two and I am sure that there are more:

1) Does it help us understand how the 3 packets arrived at Tena Bar ?   Three straps, bundled together into one makes it easier to explain how it was found, one on top of the other i.e. human intervention not required to place them like that in a burial scenario.  

2) If it could be said that the money was delivered secured/bound in one way, but it was discovered to bound in a different way, then that implies someone changed it....that would be a big deal.

The above are just my opinions and conjecture.

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4 minutes ago, JAGdb said:

All this said, what is the value in this discussion? I can think of at least two and I am sure that there are more:

1) Does it help us understand how the 3 packets arrived at Tena Bar ?   Three straps, bundled together into one makes it easier to explain how it was found, one on top of the other i.e. human intervention not required to place them like that in a burial scenario.  

2) If it could be said that the money was delivered secured/bound in one way, but it was discovered to bound in a different way, then that implies someone changed it....that would be a big deal.

The above are just my opinions and conjecture.

Yes, everyone believed the money arrived as three separate packets meaning it had to be placed/dropped or landed in a container.. the evidence indicates that individual packets were rubber banded together into bundles and the TBAR money was one single bundle of several packets, that opens up the means by which it could have arrived. The paper bank bands don't play a role here.

but, if the individual packets had paper bank bands how does that change the TBAR dynamics. Paper bands deteriorate quickly when wet and would not survive out in the elements until spring '72.. 

This suggests the money was stored out of the elements until it was introduced into the River in a Spring and that the money arrived on TBAR very soon after going into river..

 

 

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(edited)

From Tom Kay at CS web site:

"The rubber bands around the Cooper bundles were extremely degraded but still in their proper positions when found."

I haven't read the CS website in a while:
https://citizensleuths.com/rubber-band-analysis.html

But the line stating that the rubber bands were still in their proper positions must have come from the Ingram's right ?  And he is using the plural form "rubber bands", so the Ingram's observed more than one rubber band.   If so, it sounds like it was part of a more detailed description that we have not fully seen.  What else was part of that description ?  Did they clearly state that there were rubber bands on each of the three packets/straps ?  Were there two rubber bands per strap ?  How many rubber bands were there ?

In the money analysis that CS performed:

https://citizensleuths.com/moneyanalysis.html

Tom shows a picture of one packet with only ONE rubber band, is this based on what Tom understood the Ingram family to have described?

ughhh....around and around we go :-)

Happy Friday to all !

Edited by JAGdb

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11 minutes ago, JAGdb said:

From Tom Kay at CS web site:

"The rubber bands around the Cooper bundles were extremely degraded but still in their proper positions when found."

I haven't read the CS website in a while:
https://citizensleuths.com/rubber-band-analysis.html

But the line stating that the rubber bands were still in their proper positions must have come from the Ingram's right ?  And he is using the plural form "rubber bands", so the Ingram's observed more than one rubber band.   If so, it sounds like it was part of a more detailed description that we have not fully seen.  What else was part of that description ?  Did they clearly state that there were rubber bands on each of the three packets/straps ?  Were there two rubber bands per strap ?  How many rubber bands were there ?

In the money analysis that CS performed:

https://citizensleuths.com/moneyanalysis.html

Tom shows a picture of one packet with only ONE rubber band, is this based on what Tom understood the Ingram family to have described?

ughhh....around and around we go :-)

Happy Friday to all !

It was never determined.. there were no fragments remaining or locations determined by Tom..

There was the report of rubber band fragments attached that broke when touched.. 

and there was a report that one packet had no rubber bands.. 

So, if there were two rubber bands holding several packets in a single bundle there would be fragments on two of the packets..

Inconclusive..

 

 

 

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(edited)

Rubber bands belong to a class of materials known as elastomers. Elastomers comprise “coiled up flexible polymers that are 'crosslinked' by chemical molecules, chiefly sulfur." Because of these polymers and their chemical bonds, a rubber band behaves as an “entropic spring,” meaning that it is “happiest” — or most stable — when at rest.

Unlike a paper clip or staple, a rubber band comprises material that automatically returns to its original shape after being deformed. When rubber bands stretch or are heated by sunlight, the polymers contract, which makes them less flexible and more brittle. Stretching a rubber band induces "strain crystallization," of its latex polymers, strains its sulfur bonds. Therefore, simply using a rubber band eventually causes it to reach its 'melt transition phase' followed by crystallization, then becomes brittle before turning to dust.

https://ourpastimes.com/facts-7313310-do-rubber-bands-break-old-.html

The Ingram bands had completed their full chemical life cycle.

' ... the boy turned up three bundles of money wrapped with rubber bands, which was a short distance below the surface of the sand.  The money was badly decomposed and was held together with rubber bands which were so old they crumbled away immediately upon handling. They took the money home where they showed it to INGRAMs brother-in-law, who took the rest of the rubber bands off and was going to dry out the money and try to reclaim it. They had no idea at this time where the money had come from. '

No paper straps were seen or encountered.

Edited by georger

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(edited)
5 hours ago, The Cooper Vortex said:

New episode is up now.

 

DB Cooper's Criminal Profile with Robert Fuller. Check it out!

 

https://thecoopervortex.podbean.com/e/db-cooper-s-criminal-profile-robert-fuller/

I'm listening now. I enjoyed the last one I listened to.I sent you an email last week ... How long should I wait for a return?

Edited by Slim King

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I read somewhere, and I can't find it now, that the psychologist assigned to the case said that he thought that Cooper might really blow up the plane. This is why they circled around over Puget Sound just in case he did pull the trigger on the bomb. The cockpit crew also wanted to fly south over the ocean. Can anyone direct me to the book I remember this from?

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20 hours ago, Slim King said:

 Who made sketch number 1 (The one that looks different from the others) and who was he interviewing to get the information? Was it made in Reno?

Thanks

Dave

Las Vegas,, the stews were interviewed a few days later in Minneapolis for Sketch A which was later deemed poor and redone.

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17 hours ago, The Cooper Vortex said:

New episode is up now.

 

DB Cooper's Criminal Profile with Robert Fuller. Check it out!

 

https://thecoopervortex.podbean.com/e/db-cooper-s-criminal-profile-robert-fuller/

Ouch, lots of misinformation and over reach,,

I'll only address one item..

I did a deep dive on the ICS matchbook and posted about it here over a year ago, it was a marketing item which could have been picked up almost anywhere in the US and Canada where you buy cigarettes. There is no direct connection to the correspondence School. To claim Gossett or any suspect enrolled in that correspondence School because they had that matchbook is ridiculous. It was mass distribution of advertising material. Further, the empty matchbook Cooper took had notes written in it, that is why he took it not because it had some meaning to him..

and to put a fork in it, I think Gossett became a priest years later..

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(edited)
16 hours ago, Slim King said:

I read somewhere, and I can't find it now, that the psychologist assigned to the case said that he thought that Cooper might really blow up the plane. This is why they circled around over Puget Sound just in case he did pull the trigger on the bomb. The cockpit crew also wanted to fly south over the ocean. Can anyone direct me to the book I remember this from?

It was an FAA Psychiatrist. Cooper didn't blow up the plane or force crew members to bail with him - did he ? !  The psychiatrist was reading a script.

The record of the Cooper Hijacking is like a high school play with every cast member reading their scripts. Various cast members are still reading their scripts to this very day, with the same results. Ckret became a cast member in 2008. The Ingrams became cast members in 1980. Ulis is one of newest cast members. . . . . . the script hasnt changed in decades. As DB Cooper Turns. 

This is how it appears to a social psychologist.

One interplay of stories and scripts occurs between the Ingrams and the FBI just after the Ingrams appear with FBI agents at the Portland news conference, 1980. After the event a member of the Ingram family calls the FBI and tells them a conflicting version of the money find story the Ingrams have given. She places the money find location closer to the river, 20 ft closer, and with a different series of events. It may be this is the same area where Schreuder etal found their fragment field. But it does not appear that any 302s released to date have documented this story or embellished the full facts.

Lots of scripts being read and played out in the DB Cooper case. That is a fact.  

Edited by georger

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