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DB Cooper

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(edited)
10 hours ago, Slim King said:

I've been researching the F 106's since this post. Is there any proof that they can't go at 200? Maybe a pilot on here would know? I see they were used for lightning tests at 350 .... Plus ... Am I the only parachutist here that has jumped in what you claim is the jump zone? I jumped in Toledo in 1979.

I have an F-106A spec doc that states minimum speed is 150 kn (power off).. that is probably true airspeed but doesn't say.. 

NORJAK was at 165 kn.. indicated airspeed..

So, 305 was going too slow to safely follow.

 

Edited by FLYJACK

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(edited)
1 hour ago, FLYJACK said:

I have an F-106A spec doc that states minimum speed is 150 kn (power off).. that is probably true airspeed but doesn't say.. 

NORJAK was at 165 kn.. indicated airspeed..

So, 305 was going too slow to safely follow.

 

Thanks for the info Flyjack!!! Sounds fishy to me... Why send follow planes that can't follow? If they can't follow how in the heck could they have 305 on radar? So again we are down to testimony rather than hard factual data.

Edited by Slim King

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(edited)
2 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

Robert99 had been pushing the western flightpath for at least a decade, it is a slight deviation from the "FBI" flight path (10-12 miles west in WA). He has provided zero evidence in 10 years.. Eric picked up the Western flightpath theory and made factual claims that were false.. 

Everybody knows the "FBI" didn't create the flight path, this is hyperbole. We call it the "FBI" flightpath because it was accepted and used by the FBI. It was plotted by the Air Force.. it was also sent to NorthWest Airlines to help compute the LZ.

Robert99 is using redactions in the communications to claim they are hiding the Western Flightpath.. the redactions were communications unrelated to NORJAK.

The tough questions have been asked and completely rejected because there is no evidence to support an alternate flightpath, just speculation and conjecture.

It has been over 50 years and there is no evidence for an alternate flightpath.

Robert99 doesn't have it and Eric doesn't have it.

 If someone says ... "This is the Flight Path"  (FBI, Air Force) it is up to them to logically prove it. There are huge Black Holes starting with the Black Boxes for example. The FBI says the plane was on auto pilot and the pilot says he was flying it ... The FBI says they looked at the data and came to their conclusion... But where is that hard data? Another Black Hole. Only one scenario is true. I work with logic. I do appreciate all the help ... I'm late to the party!!!!

Edited by Slim King

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12 hours ago, Slim King said:

Now THIS is what I'm talking about ... let's ask the tough questions rather than say it's settled already. I've read that NO ONE takes credit for making this flight path. Is that true? Where can I find Robert Edwards blog? I have the book.

Check your PM's.

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14 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

Flight path is solid.. it was plotted by the Air Force. It has a 1 mile error. The plane was being tracked, including SAGE.

727 had a simple Flight Data Recorder and it was examined, they found a "little bob" at about 8:09.

The "escorts" didn't have visual but had it on radar.

The crew had established they were going to take V23 and Portland radar confirmed they were a few miles E of the center at one point.. it was 10 miles wide.

Rataczak confirmed the flight path map by inference, he joked about the jerky movement.

Cooper had agreed to a flight plan to go down v23 to Portland to red bluff and over to Reno..

 

 

Cooper never agreed to any flight path or plan and never specified any flight path or plan.  He only agreed to land at Reno to refuel and never discussed any flight paths to get there.

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7 hours ago, georger said:

No its not true. Its utter subversive nonsense and R99 knows it is.

Who and what Air Force units constructed the flight path and gave it to the FBI has been published here at DZ and at Shutter's site several times over the years. Dr Edwards needs to start reading the thread! That information came directly from Air Force TAG team members after they retired and finally began being interviewed by Hominid and others. This is Old News!  If R99 doesnt accept that, that is his problem. BTW: R99 does not speak for the Washington State Historical Society he keeps citing ! 

Georger, you need to start reading Dr. Edwards' book and blog.

Of course, I don't speak for the Washington State Historical Society, the Washington State History Museum, or any other organization or individual.  However, I do speak for myself.

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9 minutes ago, Slim King said:

 If someone says ... "This is the Flight Path"  (FBI, Air Force) it is up to them to logically prove it. There are huge Black Holes starting with the Black Boxes for example. The FBI says the plane was on auto pilot and the pilot says he was flying it ... The FBI says they looked at the data and came to their conclusion... But where is that hard data? Another Black Hole. Only one scenario is true. I work with logic. I do appreciate all the help ... I'm late to the party!!!!

The FBI or Air Force does not have to prove anything to you, that is not their purpose. The AF flightpath radar data had to be deciphered and plotted by a military expert, that primary data was not supplied and is useless to us.. I am sure it was classified. The FBI even went back and had them redo it using a more modern analysis, it reduced the error from 1 mile to 0.5 mile and very slightly altered the search area.. So, it was plotted twice, that is data.

The communications confirm a flightpath down to Portland then Red Bluff and over to Reno. The only alternate path put forward is the Western Path which is claims a slight deviation West in Washington, there is zero evidence for it.

So, the AF plotted map is data (plotted twice), the crew comms is data, the FDR is data.. 

The FBI files are NOT conclusions, they are a collection of all investigative notes, so there are opinions, errors and conflicts. 

There is no conflict in the FBI flightpath. 

The FDR was analyzed and its data was used with the flightpath to create the LZ.

Bottom line is you aren't using logic,, you are using your inexperience and lack of case knowledge to engage in confirmation bias.. this is what the Vortex does to you. It happens to everyone.

How do I know, because you have zero evidence and many before you have tried the same thing and have produced nothing. You have no logical argument, none. Claiming there are black holes isn't an argument. Claiming you are using logic isn't an argument. So, you are going to have to produce some actual evidence to support an alternate flightpath.

The WFP argument relies on creating doubt or a negation of evidence, not a positive argument. It failed, it has failed for a decade.

It is no different than claiming there is no proof/data there even was a hijacking. Lots of black holes.. and what about the moon landing. We don't really have proof.

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15 minutes ago, Robert99 said:

Cooper never agreed to any flight path or plan and never specified any flight path or plan.  He only agreed to land at Reno to refuel and never discussed any flight paths to get there.

I AGREE. Cooper didn't seem too concerned about the flight path himself. He just wanted to be fairly low and slow for his jump out the Side Door. The stewardess was the one who told him about the back steps. That's why she offered to show him how to use them. Cooper had intended to jump out the door IMHO.... That's why it was open the entire time ... If the steps didn't work he would go back to plan 1 ... Which was the open door. You can speculate why he had them open the door and leave it open but those are just speculations .. he really did plan on jumping out the door. It's the only logical plan as I see it .. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

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(edited)
56 minutes ago, Robert99 said:

Cooper never agreed to any flight path or plan and never specified any flight path or plan.  He only agreed to land at Reno to refuel and never discussed any flight paths to get there.

That is false.

It is in the files,, I was just looking at it.. 

he didn't set the route but he agreed to it.

The predicate was a discussion about flying to California to refuel but Cooper rejected large airports, so they agreed on Reno..

2092271687_ScreenShot2022-08-22at10_31_21AM.png.cca7c8c9788574bc28e2bd06447a59ca.png1315485774_ScreenShot2022-08-22at10_31_21AM.png.72b030a6cfce66e9e9ce1ae7ce608412.png

Edited by FLYJACK

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(edited)
5 minutes ago, Slim King said:

I AGREE. Cooper didn't seem too concerned about the flight path himself. He just wanted to be fairly low and slow for his jump out the Side Door. The stewardess was the one who told him about the back steps. That's why she offered to show him how to use them. Cooper had intended to jump out the door IMHO.... That's why it was open the entire time ... If the steps didn't work he would go back to plan 1 ... Which was the open door. You can speculate why he had them open the door and leave it open but those are just speculations .. he really did plan on jumping out the door. It's the only logical plan as I see it .. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Wrong. He did agree to the flight plan.

Side door is Reca propaganda.. he demanded the rear bulkhead door leading to the airstairs open, not the side door.

See, when you think you have it all figured out, you aren't even close.

Edited by FLYJACK

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(edited)
  1. Ad hominem — Thou shall not attack the person’s character, but the argument.
  2. Straw man fallacy — Thou shall not misrepresent or exaggerate a person’s argument in order to make them easier to attack.
  3. Hasty generalization — Thou shall not use small numbers to represent the whole.
  4. Begging the question — Thou shall not argue thy position by assuming one of its premises is true.
  5. Post Hoc/False cause — Thou shall not claim that because something occurred before, it must be the cause.
  6. False dichotomy — Thou shall not reduce the argument down to two possibilities.
  7. Ad ignorantum — Thou shall not argue that because of our ignorance, claim must be true or false.
  8. Burden of proof reversal — Thou shall not lay the burden of proof onto him that is questioning the claim.
  9. Non sequitur — Thou shall not assume “this” follows “that” when it has no logical connection.
  10. Bandwagon fallacy — Thou shall not claim that because a premise is popular, therefore it must be true.
Edited by Slim King
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3 minutes ago, Slim King said:
  1. Ad hominem — Thou shall not attack the person’s character, but the argument.
  2. Straw man fallacy — Thou shall not misrepresent or exaggerate a person’s argument in order to make them easier to attack.
  3. Hasty generalization — Thou shall not use small numbers to represent the whole.
  4. Begging the question — Thou shall not argue thy position by assuming one of its premises is true.
  5. Post Hoc/False cause — Thou shall not claim that because something occurred before, it must be the cause.
  6. False dichotomy — Thou shall not reduce the argument down to two possibilities.
  7. Ad ignorantum — Thou shall not argue that because of our ignorance, claim must be true or false.
  8. Burden of proof reversal — Thou shall not lay the burden of proof onto him that is questioning the claim.
  9. Non sequitur — Thou shall not assume “this” follows “that” when it has no logical connection.
  10. Bandwagon fallacy — Thou shall not claim that because a premise is popular, therefore it must be true.

11. Thou shall not make up their own evidence.

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(edited)
38 minutes ago, Slim King said:

I AGREE. Cooper didn't seem too concerned about the flight path himself. He just wanted to be fairly low and slow for his jump out the Side Door. The stewardess was the one who told him about the back steps. That's why she offered to show him how to use them. Cooper had intended to jump out the door IMHO.... That's why it was open the entire time ... If the steps didn't work he would go back to plan 1 ... Which was the open door. You can speculate why he had them open the door and leave it open but those are just speculations .. he really did plan on jumping out the door. It's the only logical plan as I see it .. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Logic requires you actually have the facts right. You have the wrong door.

Edited by FLYJACK

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32 minutes ago, Slim King said:

I think most people here need a lesson on Logic 101... It helps ....

Let me take a wild guess,,

Based on...

discrediting the flightpath and pushing an Eastern path,,  

you knew Carl Lauren,,

you got the side door wrong,,

you have provided zero evidence except black holes and coverups,,

there is a new book about Reca...

 

You are likely shilling for Reca.. Am I close.

 

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(edited)

I have no idea what Edwards is doing but since most principles are dead, it will be very difficult for him to re-construct the history of how the AF got involved in the Cooper case and who did what, in the period immediately after the hijacking. Im evidently wasting my time trying to communicate a few facts. I have no grande agenda in any of this!

Here are a few notes from my log:

Who made the flight path ? Based on interviews with Spangler, Johnson, and Saiz.

Note 1.

H. Earl Milnes (pronounced "milny"), the FBI agent in charge of the

northwest region of the US and based in Seattle, contacted the commander of

the 62nd Airlift Wing, Military Airlift Cmd (MAC), who suggested the FBI

work with "Wally."  Wally brought in Capt. Spangler of the 62nd Airlift

Wing, and Captain Wilson.   M/Sgt David Saiz worked for Spangler.  All were

based at McChord.

The FBI had come to the airforce to find out what they could do to help in

the case.  The airforce personnel suggested a test flight.

The team that did the re-creation flight actually worked together on the

Cooper case for a while.  They had meetings starting about the 26th of

November.  The meetings were in offices of the second floor in NWA's air

freight terminal (now gone) at the southwest corner of SEATAC (off S. 188th

St.).

 

Notre 2.

The flight path coordinates were calculated from data tape recorded at the McChord Air Defense Command Direction Center (DC).  The calculation and the plotting were almost certainly done by the McChord Detachment of the 84th Radar Evaluation Squadron (RADES).   It was their job to do such analyses, and the DC were just users of the system. The FBI was provided a copy of the plotted flight path.

 

TagdGrp.jpg

Edited by georger

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(edited)
1 hour ago, FLYJACK said:

Logic requires you actually have the facts right. You have the wrong door.

Logic allows me to determine what the facts really are and not a pre-determined assumption.It may be 100% true that I have the wrong door. I don't always have to be correct like many people on this forum. I am skeptical of all pre-approved idea's with no hard evidence. The testimony of a government employee or someone under the watchful eye of the FBI must be proven truthful.

Edited by Slim King

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1 hour ago, FLYJACK said:

Let me take a wild guess,,

Based on...

discrediting the flightpath and pushing an Eastern path,,  

you knew Carl Lauren,,

you got the side door wrong,,

you have provided zero evidence except black holes and coverups,,

there is a new book about Reca...

 

You are likely shilling for Reca.. Am I close.

 

I told you I met and really liked Carl Lauren.  He was a very dedicated researcher. He spent tens of thousands of dollars on his investigation .....No secret there. I am checking out all the angles.. Asking the tough questions. I have no problem getting proven wrong. I also speculate and am skeptical at the same time. That's how cases are solved. I have ordered Vern Jones new book through Amazon as I think any real researcher would. But if you have already solved the case then please don't. I've never met Walter Reca so I have no reason to shill for him. Why would I ?

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51 minutes ago, georger said:

I have no idea what Edwards is doing but since most principles are dead, it will be very difficult for him to re-construct the history of how the AF got involved in the Cooper case and who did what, in the period immediately after the hijacking. Im evidently wasting my time trying to communicate a few facts. I have no grande agenda in any of this!

Here are a few notes from my log:

Who made the flight path ? Based on interviews with Spangler, Johnson, and Saiz.

Note 1.

H. Earl Milnes (pronounced "milny"), the FBI agent in charge of the

northwest region of the US and based in Seattle, contacted the commander of

the 62nd Airlift Wing, Military Airlift Cmd (MAC), who suggested the FBI

work with "Wally."  Wally brought in Capt. Spangler of the 62nd Airlift

Wing, and Captain Wilson.   M/Sgt David Saiz worked for Spangler.  All were

based at McChord.

The FBI had come to the airforce to find out what they could do to help in

the case.  The airforce personnel suggested a test flight.

The team that did the re-creation flight actually worked together on the

Cooper case for a while.  They had meetings starting about the 26th of

November.  The meetings were in offices of the second floor in NWA's air

freight terminal (now gone) at the southwest corner of SEATAC (off S. 188th

St.).

 

Notre 2.

The flight path coordinates were calculated from data tape recorded at the McChord Air Defense Command Direction Center (DC).  The calculation and the plotting were almost certainly done by the McChord Detachment of the 84th Radar Evaluation Squadron (RADES).   It was their job to do such analyses, and the DC were just users of the system. The FBI was provided a copy of the plotted flight path.

 

TagdGrp.jpg

Excellent information to have!!!!

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(edited)
18 minutes ago, Slim King said:

Georger .. The picture you provided is which group?The re-enactment group?

The people who conducted the test flight AND worked with the FBI on the Cooper case. Read every word I posted.  

A separate group of named people processed the radar data and plotted a flight path: quote: "The flight path coordinates were calculated from data tape recorded at the McChord Air Defense Command Direction Center (DC).  The calculation and the plotting were almost certainly done by the McChord Detachment of the 84th Radar Evaluation Squadron (RADES).   It was their job to do such analyses, and the DC were just users of the system. The FBI was provided a copy of the plotted flight path." 

As for R99, he has been made aware of this for years and has sat on his ass and done nothing! He prefers his own agenda. Its a total mystery to me how or why WSHM did not develop this further, if they could have. Maybe they were done with their project by the time this information was being developed ? I have no idea ...   

Edited by georger
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13 minutes ago, georger said:

The people who conducted the test flight AND worked with the FBI on the Cooper case. Read every word I posted.  

A separate group of named people processed the radar data and plotted a flight path: quote: "The flight path coordinates were calculated from data tape recorded at the McChord Air Defense Command Direction Center (DC).  The calculation and the plotting were almost certainly done by the McChord Detachment of the 84th Radar Evaluation Squadron (RADES).   It was their job to do such analyses, and the DC were just users of the system. The FBI was provided a copy of the plotted flight path." 

As for R99, he has been made aware of this for years and has sat on his ass and done nothing! He prefers his own agenda. 

The actual facts are that Georger and I worked very closely for about a year in the 2010 time frame.  Then he went ballistic and that ended that.

In 2010, I had to point out to Georger that North was usually at the top of a map.  Now he is an expert and pontificating on the subject.

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1 hour ago, Slim King said:

I am re-reading Skyjacked ... It is my favorite book so far. Do you think the information revealed in this book may have gotten someone murdered?

I happen to be reading SKYJACK (what you meant?) too... it's a great book, but I'm not sure there's anything juicy enough to get killed over in there lol...

I was curious about the guy supposedly stalking Flo on NWO flights after the hijacking, though... did anything ever come of that? Did the FBI identify him? Seems to me like it was probably just another nut, but you never know...

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21 minutes ago, Coopericane said:

I happen to be reading SKYJACK (what you meant?) too... it's a great book, but I'm not sure there's anything juicy enough to get killed over in there lol...

I was curious about the guy supposedly stalking Flo on NWO flights after the hijacking, though... did anything ever come of that? Did the FBI identify him? Seems to me like it was probably just another nut, but you never know...

I think the guy who packed the chutes was caught out in a lie in this book. Within a year he's murdered.

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