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quade

DB Cooper

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(edited)
6 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

Now, try and figure out why the unlocked stair light came on at 7:42 (crew) and again at about 8:00 (Tina)

Well, you say that the light responds to the lever, not the door. Even if the door opened on the first try, if Cooper never figured out to press the button, he may have played with the lever a few times trying to get the hydraulics to engage and push the door open farther. And failing that, he may have ventured onto the stairs a few times to see if his weight would indeed open them enough for him to exit, causing the multiple 'oscillations'.

-------

What do you think of Bill Rollins' suspect, Joe Lakich? Certainly an interesting story.

Edited by dudeman17

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35 minutes ago, dudeman17 said:

Well, you say that the light responds to the lever, not the door. Even if the door opened on the first try, if Cooper never figured out to press the button, he may have played with the lever a few times trying to get the hydraulics to engage and push the door open farther. And failing that, he may have ventured onto the stairs a few times to see if his weight would indeed open them enough for him to exit, causing the multiple 'oscillations'.

-------

What do you think of Bill Rollins' suspect, Joe Lakich? Certainly an interesting story.

Yup, that is one possibility..

Either.. 

Tina was mistaken/misquoted and she noticed the light on, not saw it come on.

Cooper put the lever back to the up detent then moved it forward again.

The crew's first notification was actually the rear door light not the airstair light, so misreported. This is interesting because Rataczak mentioned the increase in noise when the door opened.. Cooper wanted it open but it the noise would have been unbearable.. perhaps it was unlocked on takeoff and physically opened at some point, but when exactly.

Joe Lakich,, I don't know a lot about Lakich but the case seems to be based on a grudge, weak circumstantial like many suspects and there is a physical feature Cooper had that Lakich does not. So, It is an interesting story bit no evidence and no physical match.

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On 7/30/2022 at 8:54 AM, FLYJACK said:

WW2 Pioneer chute P2-B-24

2066300968_ScreenShot2022-07-30at8_49_31AM.png.be80c52175bbf1934930d1efc3eabd4b.png

The chute returned to Hayden SN 226 is a WW2 era tan cotton Pioneer P2-B-24 container with a newer Pioneer sage green nylon "quick fit" harness, date April 1957.

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Well that would be a legitimate modification to replace a harness. It would take a lot of stitch-picking and sewing. Pretty sure it would require manufacturer approval and a master rigger to make it legal. Seems like a lot of work for such an old rig though.

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12 hours ago, dudeman17 said:

Well that would be a legitimate modification to replace a harness. It would take a lot of stitch-picking and sewing. Pretty sure it would require manufacturer approval and a master rigger to make it legal. Seems like a lot of work for such an old rig though.

That begs the question,, did Cossey make it before Hayden bought it??

Hayden bought it with the other back chute at a surplus store, they had Cossey pack it May 21, 1971. Hayden never met Cossey.

Cossey got his Master Parachute Rigger certification April 14, 1971.

530979810_ScreenShot2022-07-29at5_14_32PM.png.68f7f2c370f0981879a8ed5862380cac.png

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(edited)

Going through the McCoy FBI files it is abundantly clear that he was not Cooper..  

Anyone thinking McCoy was Cooper read the FBI files and that will cure you quickly of that notion.

Calame and Rhodes must have known McCoy was not Cooper when they wrote that book, then why? Did they have an agenda to pin NORJAK on McCoy to close it,, knowing that it wasn't him.

There is a lot of stuff in the files, most covered before but some interesting points.

McCoy was described by witnesses as having a slender build waist up but heaver below the waist. Witnesses had his height from 5' 5" to 5' 10"..

1562752535_ScreenShot2022-08-13at7_54_45AM.png.9118f0f6566a3c690fd34ae6d9fe03d5.png

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Does not have neat handwriting.

1738584367_ScreenShot2022-08-13at9_17_54AM.png.cb513a6d634f86bb8ab4a3de1fc2aaa6.png

The only note McCoy left behind..

 

1329623141_ScreenShot2022-08-13at9_24_31AM.png.f320862182f1c01662e18178249bd894.png

 

Artist sketch,, with disguise which was obvious to the witnesses.

622454042_ScreenShot2022-08-12at9_47_55PM.png.41a150d89f27e5f8094e355d2b0d24ce.png

 

Witnesses said he had pock marked cheeks, stubby fingers and a noticeable lisp/speech impediment during interview. Scar on cheek.

464268516_ScreenShot2022-08-13at8_43_23AM.png.cf94e47760ff98ba53236514705d0d77.png

 

Edited by FLYJACK

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Checked the McCoy files for the pilot's take on the jump..

The crew saw the red airstair light on.. (It is officially amber but looks red)

Felt a movement. Change in pressure. 11:11 - 11:12 radio transmission from crew believed hijacker just exited.

Went back and checked, hijacker gone. 11:27 confirmed by radio hijacker gone.

 

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883355638_ScreenShot2022-08-13at8_17_24AM.png.d499bae940724022db450065fe2c810a.png

596749040_ScreenShot2022-08-13at8_14_36AM.png.0df7cbe61438709d1c875867f92d1033.png

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(edited)

Calame and Rhodes claimed a witness identified the tie clasp and tie as McCoy's.

This is false, witness was shown a pic and said she recalls McCoy having one similar or possible. Calame and Rhodes exaggerated the witness claim.. this exaggerated claim is used to sell McCoy as Cooper.

982536080_ScreenShot2022-08-12at8_32_33PM.png.c1c04334d1c807d2015607d77f5a5dc8.png

Edited by FLYJACK

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Finally, Chaucer almost got it...  not quite but getting closer. It doesn't eliminate the 8:11 time though and the time of the call is not a "guess". Yes, Rataczak called Soderlind at NWA and reported it minutes later.. (Anderson and Ratazcak) Ratazcak stated they had not yet reached Portland proper but were definitely in the suburbs. He is referring to the call to Soderlind. If Ratazcak called Soderlind minutes after the "bump/jump" and the call was in the suburbs of Portland then the bump was somewhere minutes N of Battleground at 8:15.. (so 8:11- 8:13) This matches the LZ created by Soderlind. It destroys a Columbia River landing.

Ratazcak also claimed the mark your radar/shrimpboats to ATC was right away not to Soderlind, so there were two comms from Ratazcak. We don't have that ATC comm but there was dead air from 7:59 to 8:13 due to a frequency/zone error. I don't see any evidence to question Ratazcak's claim but even without it we have enough to establish Cooper jumped minutes North of the suburbs of Portland. aka N of approximately Battleground. This matches and confirms the LZ created by Soderlind.

 

Chaucer writes..

"Bit of talk recently regarding the comms relating to the jump time of Cooper.

Larry Carr told me personally (on Eric Ulis's Facebook page) that a transcript of the NWA comms with Flight 305 exists. In his reading of this, he confirms that when the pressure bump happened, they were not on the phone with NWA, but called afterward to report the incident. This comports with what Anderson said in 2014.

Carr said that the person doing the recording did not write down the time that the report was received, but instead estimated the time that the crew thought they felt the pressure bump. 

This would seemingly eliminate the 8:11 jump time based upon the "Rataczak losing his ear piece" comm.

This would put the pressure bump an unknown amount of time AFTER the 8:11 time of the report of "oscillations". How far after is still a guess."

 

cooperjump.jpeg.4214210c7ca4559af608ed5207ae8150.jpeg.b2d82c7baec2100ba251a860ef4920c7.jpeg.075f62192213c2c3b4e9989546266e49.jpeg

 

77329383_ScreenShot2022-08-07at7_36_08AM.png.af968b7b5588294818bf53f6cd5dd152.png

 

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What happened to Sluggo's old Cooper site? Anyone know? Chaucer keeps saying he goes there .... so is Walker's old Cooper site still active but owned by somebody else? Or is this just another figment of someone's imagination?   

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2 minutes ago, georger said:

What happened to Sluggo's old Cooper site? Anyone know? Chaucer keeps saying he goes there .... so is Walker's old Cooper site still active but owned by somebody else? Or is this just another figment of someone's imagination?   

Sluggo's site is gone. 

It can be found on the internet archive here..

https://web.archive.org/web/20190210220215/http://n467us.com/

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(edited)

Cooperites keep saying  "the bands were intact", quote unquote. Just about everybody recites this mantra -  Kaye, Ulis, Carr, Chaucer, . . .   

So, would someone explain to me what this means? "the bands were intact" ...

And, if this often recited phrase has no meaning, what does that mean!  

BTW the Cooper case in the hands of pundits is FULL of this kind of confusion or obfuscation and it is the source of conflict between people.

Edited by georger

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25 minutes ago, georger said:

Cooperites keep saying  "the bands were intact", quote unquote. Just about everybody recites this mantra -  Kaye, Ulis, Carr, Chaucer, . . .   

So, would someone explain to me what this means? "the bands were intact" ...

And, if this often recited phrase has no meaning, what does that mean!  

BTW the Cooper case in the hands of pundits is FULL of this kind of confusion or obfuscation and it is the source of conflict between people.

Of course the bands were not "intact"... 

"Intact" suggests whole, unbroken and fully surrounding a packet.. 

Given the condition of the packets that is ridiculous.

One packet was missing some top bills so no rubber band there but there were fragments reportedly attached to some of the packets which crumbled when touched..

Those rubber band fragments have never been produced.

"Intact" is like "loafers",, made up and inconsistent with the evidence.

 

 

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(edited)
6 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

Of course the bands were not "intact"... 

"Intact" suggests whole, unbroken and fully surrounding a packet.. 

Given the condition of the packets that is ridiculous.

One packet was missing some top bills so no rubber band there but there were fragments reportedly attached to some of the packets which crumbled when touched..

Those rubber band fragments have never been produced.

"Intact" is like "loafers",, made up and inconsistent with the evidence.

 

 

Good - applause. Intact sounds like FBI-speak. Biblical, rush to judgement by people barely qualified to put on a Band Aid. A serious problem is people continue to use it . . and they are deadly serious.    

Edited by georger

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(edited)
5 hours ago, georger said:

Good - applause. Intact sounds like FBI-speak. Biblical, rush to judgement by people barely qualified to put on a Band Aid. A serious problem is people continue to use it . . and they are deadly serious.    

Kaye's diatom theory requires fanning out in open water, but that requires working bands. Obviously bills cannot fan out unless they are being restrained by something ... viable rubber bands. But Tom sets band life in nature as short - 6 months to a year?  Thus, using Tom's constraints, the latest the money could have fanned out in water is about 6 mos to 1 year after the hijacking or the end of 1972 based on the lifetime of rubber bands. Obviously the bills cannot fan out after the rubber bands have ceased to be viable restraints on the bills. 

Tom says: Rubber bands were found intact but degraded on the bundles suggests they were initially buried without any significant exposure to the elements which is known to rapidly degrade them25. Maybe Tom is now proposing that the Ingram bands lasted longer?   Maybe even 7 years?  This is all conjecture on Tom's part in any event.

Another problem is Tom describes the found money as "the bills had congealed into a solid lump consistent with the condition the bills were found in, preventing any further diatom infiltration ..."  A congealed solid lump of bills cannot fan out! A congealed solid lump of bills prevents diatom infiltration! When did congealing prevent fanning out? When did congealing shut the door to diatom exposure of the inner bundle bills.

These factors, and others, are clocks that set a time limit on when diatom exposure can and cannot happen. 

If fanning out is required for the bills to take on diatoms then someone needs to set the time limits for when the bills could have fanned out, or not. And the same for 'congealing'. Et cetera...

Food for thought.

whole bill.JPG

Edited by georger

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My interpretation of what the diatom paper states is roughly as follows:  ( I posted this on Shutter's site few months back)

- 377s bill was not a top or bottom bill in the packet/bundola, it was from somewhere in the middle.  He draws this conclusion based on the fact that a diatom was found sandwiched between two pieces of different bills. 

- That the packet experienced water immersion at which time the bill(s) fanned out.

- While the bill(s) was fanned out, planktonic diatoms (Asterionella and others) attached themselves to the bill.  This diatom species is active in the spring/summer time, therefore the bills only were in the water during the spring/summer time frame.

- At some point, the packet unfanned and the packet congealed back into a compressed form sealing the edges.

- Once the packet was congealed, there is no evidence of diatom's penetrating to the interior of the bill. 

- There is no evidence of sand based diatom species on the bill.  This implies that while the money was buried, no sand based diatom species attached (sand based diatom species are smaller than the diatom species that live in the water).

 How long does it take for money to congeal ? What conditions are required for congealing i.e mutliple wet/dry cycles? Do rubber bands last longer in oxygen starved environments ? What are the oxygen environments in 6 to 8 inches of sand or at the bottom of the Colombia ?

By the time the money was discovered, I am guessing there were only remnants of the rubber bands, perhaps visible on the top and or bottom of the bundles--it would be nice to have that clarification from Brian Ingram or his parents, not sure if anyone was ever able to ask him/them of that detail.  It's my take that the FBI never saw the rubber bands and that the Ingram's probably destroyed the rubber bands when they took them home and tried to separate the money.  

 

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Another possibility is that money was out in the environment very briefly.

For example, somebody goes out searches and finds money that Cooper lost in the jump, keeps it to spend later because it is marked and reward is small.. ends up in the Columbia River intentionally or accidentally in a spring years later..

In that scenario or similar the rubber bands would not deteriorate as fast and enable the packets to fan out in the water years later.

It is difficult to determine the deterioration rate of the rubber bands due to unknown environmental variables.

I can see the argument for spring '72 or spring '79... too many unknown unknowns.

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2 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

Another possibility is that money was out in the environment very briefly.

For example, somebody goes out searches and finds money that Cooper lost in the jump, keeps it to spend later because it is marked and reward is small.. ends up in the Columbia River intentionally or accidentally in a spring years later..

In that scenario or similar the rubber bands would not deteriorate as fast and enable the packets to fan out in the water years later.

It is difficult to determine the deterioration rate of the rubber bands due to unknown environmental variables.

I can see the argument for spring '72 or spring '79... too many unknown unknowns.

The amount of tension on the band is also a very important consideration.  

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(edited)

To complicate matters further:  (1) Tom first looked at three bills Ckret provided and saw no diatoms.  That result was unexpected (2) No proof of paper straps has ever been shown. It's pure speculation based on second hand interpretation. (3) So far nobody has given an estimate of how many different diatoms there are (or were) in the sands or water at the Ingram site, as an independent fact of nature. Our first guess was a 100% probability of being exposed to diatoms at the Ingrams site, but is that correct? (4) Did the Ingram bills ever fan out at all, anywhere? Nobody knows including Tom. (5) Paper money is a cellulose cloth vs. paper. Cellulose cells swell when wet and then contract as they dry, even when grouped in a congealed mass. That offers space for smaller diatoms to enter. This is independent of any bills ever fanning out so there is a mechanism for diatom entry which has nothing to do with fanning out. (6) Tom is dwelling on 'fanning out' which may never have happened. The distribution of the diatoms Tom found may suggest some other mechanism. 

That's enough for now. Nobody has ever searched the evidence folders debris for diatoms, or the contents of those plastic socalled fragment containers ...

     

Edited by georger

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I made over 200 special decks of cards. I placed rubber bands around each of them (Coincidentally the rubber bands came from my wife's bank I'm pretty sure) I sold enough of these to break even (Less than 50) and put the rest away for later. Within a year about half of the bands had broken when I went to start another sales campaign .... I live in Florida and it's hot, but these were inside the entire time. I'm pretty sure that the rubber bands would have broken on the cash if it was outside for over a year.

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44 minutes ago, Slim King said:

I made over 200 special decks of cards. I placed rubber bands around each of them (Coincidentally the rubber bands came from my wife's bank I'm pretty sure) I sold enough of these to break even (Less than 50) and put the rest away for later. Within a year about half of the bands had broken when I went to start another sales campaign .... I live in Florida and it's hot, but these were inside the entire time. I'm pretty sure that the rubber bands would have broken on the cash if it was outside for over a year.

I've had the same experience with rubber bands around items in my closets.  The bands get spongy and break within a relatively brief time (a year or two).  

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7 hours ago, dudeman17 said:

But there are two kinds of bands. The paper bank bands that hold the packets of 100 bills together, and the rubber bands that held 2 or 3 packets together. So how long did which kind last?

My wife is a banker. You are 100% correct .. $20 bills are STRAPPED with paper straps in groups of 100. My wife says they only use rubber bands infrequently when the money is in drawers and is then removed when the money is Strapped. Where these rubber bands applied later?

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