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DB Cooper

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(edited)
31 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

You are missing something...  

Cossey claimed and believed that the back chutes were his sent from Issaquah... not Hayden's.. this is explained earlier.

The context is,, why would he maintain this error once it was self evidently false.

So it appears - that hasnt escaped me.

The acquisition of the chutes and certification of the chutes for Cooper was sloppy after the Air Force denied using their chutes. Cooper accepted them without knowing their provenance!  Carr claims this indicates Cooper was a novice or worse as compared with a real professional - McCoy. Cooper was betting his life on a crap shoot, says Carr? Is that really true and a correct evaluation of Cooper? I dont think that is entirely correct ? Cooper did inspect the chutes - true or false ?  He chose to go ahead without the back pack for the money ... he may have had a schedule that he was trying to keep? He was already late and upset about that trying to adapt ...

Im not sure I buy some of Carr's assumptions/conclusions/methods. I dont like Personality Cults even in today's media world.

I wonder if modern methods would have pulled usable finger prints off those butts along with serology?  Maybe dna?  

Edited by georger

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On 7/27/2022 at 9:01 PM, georger said:

Carr insists Cooper was a no-pull. (which follows the old FBI scenario and a scenario someone wrote at wiki - that Cooper's handling of the chutes showed him a rank amateur)

What do you think ?

I think it's highly unlikely that he was a no-pull.

On any given jump, the odds are highly in favor of survival. However, people do occasionally go in. And there certainly have been no-pull/low-pull fatalities that the who and how left everyone scratching their heads. So, on any given Sunday, as they say, anyone can bounce.

But with over thirty years experience in dealing with first-time jumpers, I think I have a pretty good take on how different types of people are likely to react. So even if you start with assuming Cooper has no jump experience whatsoever, my professional opinion is that if he has it in him to go through with this caper, then he has it in him to pull the ripcord. Even if he's tumbling and out of control. And if he pulls, he all but assuredly gets an open canopy. I've seen, seen video, and heard of people deploying in out of control f'ed up body positions, and even with hand deployed throw out pilot chutes they get open. With a rigger packed reserve canopy and a ripcord activated, spring loaded pilot chute coming off his back, all the better.

Add to that Andrade's research on WWII bailouts.

If he has military/combat experience, as many men of his age and era did, then all the more experience with focus under pressure. And if he had any parachuting experience, which his handling of the chutes would seem to indicate, that adds to his chances.

So my bet is that he got under an open canopy. After that... ???

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On 7/28/2022 at 3:01 PM, FLYJACK said:

I found Cossey's riggers registration..

April 14, 1971.. ...Hayden's rigs were packed by Cossey May 21, 1971, 5 weeks after he got his Master Parachute Rigger certification. Maybe there was a lower level rigger cert, there is a senior rigger.. Cossey may have had a senior rigger cert prior.

 

Certificate: MASTER PARACHUTE RIGGER  
Date of Issue: 4/14/1971

That sounds odd to me. If Cossey was the principal rigger at his dz's loft and maintaining the student gear, I would think he would need a master certificate. A senior reaper can pack reserves and do nominal repairs, but more serious repairs and mods, especially to the harness/container, require a master rating. Are you sure that was initial issue and not a renewal? How old was Cossey at the time?

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17 minutes ago, dudeman17 said:

That sounds odd to me. If Cossey was the principal rigger at his dz's loft and maintaining the student gear, I would think he would need a master certificate. A senior reaper can pack reserves and do nominal repairs, but more serious repairs and mods, especially to the harness/container, require a master rating. Are you sure that was initial issue and not a renewal? How old was Cossey at the time?

He would have been about 33..

That is the current record right from the FAA.. has to be the date first issued,, I can't find anything on expiring or renewing the Certificate. Maybe like a drivers license..

he also has a private pilot cert dated 1969.

129127919_ScreenShot2022-07-29at5_14_32PM.png.76c91d60efa9ac70b51b7c82d2db1933.png

 

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37 minutes ago, dudeman17 said:

I think it's highly unlikely that he was a no-pull.

On any given jump, the odds are highly in favor of survival. However, people do occasionally go in. And there certainly have been no-pull/low-pull fatalities that the who and how left everyone scratching their heads. So, on any given Sunday, as they say, anyone can bounce.

But with over thirty years experience in dealing with first-time jumpers, I think I have a pretty good take on how different types of people are likely to react. So even if you start with assuming Cooper has no jump experience whatsoever, my professional opinion is that if he has it in him to go through with this caper, then he has it in him to pull the ripcord. Even if he's tumbling and out of control. And if he pulls, he all but assuredly gets an open canopy. I've seen, seen video, and heard of people deploying in out of control f'ed up body positions, and even with hand deployed throw out pilot chutes they get open. With a rigger packed reserve canopy and a ripcord activated, spring loaded pilot chute coming off his back, all the better.

Add to that Andrade's research on WWII bailouts.

If he has military/combat experience, as many men of his age and era did, then all the more experience with focus under pressure. And if he had any parachuting experience, which his handling of the chutes would seem to indicate, that adds to his chances.

So my bet is that he got under an open canopy. After that... ???

Dudeman it’s been a while since I’ve read the fatalities list that used to be in the skydive magazine. It would explain some of the deaths. But as I remember a lot of the deaths (a very small portion of the total jumps) often had to do with hitting another jumper in the air or hitting power lines on the ground. I’m guessing there is some database that might show cause of death. If Cooper pulled then there is a good chance he survived, and even if he didn’t we should have found a parachute. 
 

I agree on the military training. There are certain things you just never lose. Training at a young age is one of those. So many of these WW2 vets took off their uniforms and became regular guys. Even family members might have a tough time picturing their loved one doing this, yet they probably were in risky situations in the military. 

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1 hour ago, CooperNWO305 said:

Dudeman it’s been a while since I’ve read the fatalities list that used to be in the skydive magazine. It would explain some of the deaths. But as I remember a lot of the deaths (a very small portion of the total jumps) often had to do with hitting another jumper in the air or hitting power lines on the ground. I’m guessing there is some database that might show cause of death.

Most fatalities, you can piece together what happened. But some of them are puzzlers.

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(edited)
8 hours ago, dudeman17 said:

I think it's highly unlikely that he was a no-pull.

On any given jump, the odds are highly in favor of survival. However, people do occasionally go in. And there certainly have been no-pull/low-pull fatalities that the who and how left everyone scratching their heads. So, on any given Sunday, as they say, anyone can bounce.

But with over thirty years experience in dealing with first-time jumpers, I think I have a pretty good take on how different types of people are likely to react. So even if you start with assuming Cooper has no jump experience whatsoever, my professional opinion is that if he has it in him to go through with this caper, then he has it in him to pull the ripcord. Even if he's tumbling and out of control. And if he pulls, he all but assuredly gets an open canopy. I've seen, seen video, and heard of people deploying in out of control f'ed up body positions, and even with hand deployed throw out pilot chutes they get open. With a rigger packed reserve canopy and a ripcord activated, spring loaded pilot chute coming off his back, all the better.

Add to that Andrade's research on WWII bailouts.

If he has military/combat experience, as many men of his age and era did, then all the more experience with focus under pressure. And if he had any parachuting experience, which his handling of the chutes would seem to indicate, that adds to his chances.

So my bet is that he got under an open canopy. After that... ???

Thanks -  valuable post!  Carr focuses on McCoy bringing his own gear which Carr thinks is a key sign of a professionalism. Hmmm.  Cooper brought a bomb. By coincidence Tina's father was an electrician! Tina somehow gives a detailed statement of the bomb's construction including (if you can believe this!)  red wire is attached to... black wire is attached to... item by item!  So I showed her statement to three retired military ordinance guys and they said: 'The wiring sounds right...'  One of the guys constructed a Cooper bomb using Tin's description. We took it to an ordinance site. It blew up! I wish I had video taped it. We had a  lot of fun!    Professionalism is as professionalism does ?  The bomb got everyone's attention and full compliance.   

Edited by georger

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(edited)

Forget about Carr.. his "died in jump" argument is flawed because he doesn't know the facts.

He and the FBI got played by Cossey just like he played the media..

Carr thought Cooper used Cossey's PERSONALLY modified hard to pull chute. 

He didn't.

Hayden bought the chutes at a surplus shop, the shop got them repacked by Cossey, Hayden never met Cossey. NO way Cossey packs a hard to pull modified chute (1 of a pair) as a bail out rig for a customer (who never jumps).

2008477984_ScreenShot2022-07-30at8_24_28AM.png.a005cca2a5a5937ea323181bcaf3c7a1.png

2022899636_ScreenShot2022-07-30at8_34_34AM.png.5b218b4507c009ff58e97063317eda64.png

Edited by FLYJACK

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(edited)
16 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

Have been trying to determine the model of the chute left on the plane and returned to Hayden..

I think it is a Pioneer P2-B-24...

WW2 Pioneer chute P2-B-24

2066300968_ScreenShot2022-07-30at8_49_31AM.png.be80c52175bbf1934930d1efc3eabd4b.png

Edited by FLYJACK
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(edited)
2 hours ago, Coopericane said:

There's been some talk on Reddit recently... is this "Robert Aitken" guy as the Shelton Lead legit?

No way,, the Shelton lead is not one person but is a conflation of tips and a suspect who moved from California..  a red herring.

Aitken lived his entire life in Shelton.

Aitken may be the guy Chael claimed was Cooper but his story is nonsense. Like many who claimed to either know or be related to Cooper,, no evidence and wrong info.

Edit,, Chael said his Cooper suspect died in Arizona,, this isn't that guy.

Welcome to the Vortex, you can enter but you can never leave.

Edited by FLYJACK
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(edited)

Im going to post this once and never again for all time.

brucesmith49 says:

July 29, 2022 at 6:37 am

Georger is a long-time DB Cooper researcher and commentator at the old and new DropZone, and the DB Cooper Forum. His assistance to me in my research and writing has been critically important.

Georger replies -

Thanks Bruce. Georger knew Tom Kaye in scientific and university circles before and independent of any Cooper related activity. At length, G recalls he sent Ckret a PM at Dropzone suggesting lab work might shed new light on the money's history. Time and TK's work has proven G correct. G talked to TK privately. G put TK and Ckret together and helped launch a citizen based DBCooper research team, the socalled Citizen Sleuths. G posted about these activities at DZ and informed several people including Robert Nicholson, Bruce Smith, and Wayne Walker (Sluggo) about what was going to happen. The rest is history.   

At length Geof Gray revealed Georger's identity in his book, for personal reasons. This stopped Georger and others from doing more. Georger has always suggested that some entity like the Smithsonian should take up the DB Cooper case, because people at the Smithsonian have the capability and capacity to handle a 'special' historical project of this kind, where both historical and scientific issues are of critical importance and should be preserved for posterity. 

Edited by georger

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1 hour ago, georger said:

Im going to post this once and never again for all time.

brucesmith49 says:

July 29, 2022 at 6:37 am

Georger is a long-time DB Cooper researcher and commentator at the old and new DropZone, and the DB Cooper Forum. His assistance to me in my research and writing has been critically important.

Georger replies -

Thanks Bruce. Georger knew Tom Kaye in scientific and university circles before and independent of any Cooper related activity. At length, G recalls he sent Ckret a PM at Dropzone suggesting lab work might shed new light on the money's history. Time and TK's work has proven G correct. G talked to TK privately. G put TK and Ckret together and helped launch a citizen based DBCooper research team, the socalled Citizen Sleuths. G posted about these activities at DZ and informed several people including Robert Nicholson, Bruce Smith, and Wayne Walker (Sluggo) about what was going to happen. The rest is history.   

At length Geof Gray revealed Georger's identity in his book, for personal reasons. This stopped Georger and others from doing more. Georger has always suggested that some entity like the Smithsonian should take up the DB Cooper case, because people at the Smithsonian have the capability and capacity to handle a 'special' historical project of this kind, where both historical and scientific issues are of critical importance and should be preserved for posterity. 

For the record.  I first heard of the Cooper hijacking while it was in progress on November 24, 1971.  I had spent that day working at the office in the Eastern Time Zone and then headed for the airport to catch a couple of flights, both east of the Mississippi River, to go to a family get together.

I may have heard about the hijacking before I even got on the first flight.  Or I may have heard about it during the wait for the second flight.  At the end of the second flight, I rented a car and drove for about an hour or two while listening to news radio reports on the Cooper hijacking.  The following Sunday afternoon on the drive back to the airport, I again listened to news radio reports on the hijacking.   

As an aeronautical engineer, general aviation pilot, and with some skydiving experience, I had fully expected Cooper to be behind bars at that point.  And I was mystified as to why he hadn't been caught.

Fast forward to about 2009 when the FBI (presumably Carr) asked for public assistance on the Cooper hijacking.  I thought it was a good match with my skill set so I started checking in to it.

I had the good fortune to make contact with W. Wayne Walker (Sluggo).  Sluggo is the person who told me about the Cooper thread on DropZone.  I joined that thread about March 2009 but did not post there until late 2010 if I remember correctly.  But Sluggo had his own website plus other information and I took full advantage of that.

If my memory is correct, my first post on DropZone was to the effect that the proposed flight path(s) were highly questionable.  This really upset some of the old timers there and this continues to date.

I don't remember how Georger got in touch with me but he and I spent about one year exchanging private e-mails.  The subject we discussed at extreme length was about Tena Bar which was all Georger was interested in at that time.  But then one day Georger went ballistic and that ended that.  The rest is well known.

The post that I made on Shutter's site supporting Bruce Smith's statement about the contact between the FBI and TK is exactly what Georger told me years ago.

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1 hour ago, FLYJACK said:

Confirmed it was William (Bill) Jeswine who twice repacked the chute Cooper left on the plane and was returned to Hayden..

 

dbc-parachutes-hayden-rigging-card-cossey-signature-3-1.thumb.jpg.f8658300f008d006a7030ca4421dc9ea.jpg

FlyJack, Can you confirm that this packing card is with the Hayden parachute that is now on display at the WSHM?

Here is some information on those rigger numbers.  Cossey's rigger number of 1579638 is a number generated and assigned by the FAA.

Jeswine's rigger number of 532-42-4217 is actually his Social Security Number.  At some point the FAA started using the SSN instead of assigning their own number to FAA certificates.

But putting the SSN's on public documents proved to be a very bad idea.  The criminals loved it and so the FAA reverted to generating and assigning their own numbers.

The people who had FAA certificates that included their SSN were given the option of having a new certificate issued with an FAA generated number.  Jeswine may/or may not have done so but his SSN is on full view in that paperwork posted above.  

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28 minutes ago, Robert99 said:

FlyJack, Can you confirm that this packing card is with the Hayden parachute that is now on display at the WSHM?

Here is some information on those rigger numbers.  Cossey's rigger number of 1579638 is a number generated and assigned by the FAA.

Jeswine's rigger number of 532-42-4217 is actually his Social Security Number.  At some point the FAA started using the SSN instead of assigning their own number to FAA certificates.

But putting the SSN's on public documents proved to be a very bad idea.  The criminals loved it and so the FAA reverted to generating and assigning their own numbers.

The people who had FAA certificates that included their SSN were given the option of having a new certificate issued with an FAA generated number.  Jeswine may/or may not have done so but his SSN is on full view in that paperwork posted above.  

Jeswine's number is still searchable on the FAA site,, it wasn't changed..

and I am not sure he is still alive.

I assume the packing card went with the chute to the museum but it is probably still inside the pocket and not on display.

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(edited)
6 hours ago, Robert99 said:

For the record.  I first heard of the Cooper hijacking while it was in progress on November 24, 1971.  I had spent that day working at the office in the Eastern Time Zone and then headed for the airport to catch a couple of flights, both east of the Mississippi River, to go to a family get together.

I may have heard about the hijacking before I even got on the first flight.  Or I may have heard about it during the wait for the second flight.  At the end of the second flight, I rented a car and drove for about an hour or two while listening to news radio reports on the Cooper hijacking.  The following Sunday afternoon on the drive back to the airport, I again listened to news radio reports on the hijacking.   

As an aeronautical engineer, general aviation pilot, and with some skydiving experience, I had fully expected Cooper to be behind bars at that point.  And I was mystified as to why he hadn't been caught.

Fast forward to about 2009 when the FBI (presumably Carr) asked for public assistance on the Cooper hijacking.  I thought it was a good match with my skill set so I started checking in to it.

I had the good fortune to make contact with W. Wayne Walker (Sluggo).  Sluggo is the person who told me about the Cooper thread on DropZone.  I joined that thread about March 2009 but did not post there until late 2010 if I remember correctly.  But Sluggo had his own website plus other information and I took full advantage of that.

If my memory is correct, my first post on DropZone was to the effect that the proposed flight path(s) were highly questionable.  This really upset some of the old timers there and this continues to date.

I don't remember how Georger got in touch with me but he and I spent about one year exchanging private e-mails.  The subject we discussed at extreme length was about Tena Bar which was all Georger was interested in at that time.  But then one day Georger went ballistic and that ended that.  The rest is well known.

The post that I made on Shutter's site supporting Bruce Smith's statement about the contact between the FBI and TK is exactly what Georger told me years ago.

What's you point if there is one ? You were surprised when Cooper hadn't been caught, the next day. In the State of Washington. In the first search zone ? ... 

Edited by georger

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3 hours ago, georger said:

What's you point if there is one ? You were surprised when Cooper hadn't been caught, the next day. In the State of Washington. In the first search zone ? ... 

Actually, I was surprised that Cooper wasn't caught within three or four days.  I lived in Washington State in my younger years.  I was a Boy Scout there and spent time hiking and camping in the woods and mountains, swam in a tributary of the Columbia River (about three miles from the Columbia River itself), learned map reading and field navigation, and was a bit of an outdoor type at that stage. I lived east of the Cascade Mountains but knew what Cooper would encounter if he bailed out west of them.  

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15 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

No way,, the Shelton lead is not one person but is a conflation of tips and a suspect who moved from California..  a red herring.

Aitken lived his entire life in Shelton.

Aitken may be the guy Chael claimed was Cooper but his story is nonsense. Like many who claimed to either know or be related to Cooper,, no evidence and wrong info.

Edit,, Chael said his Cooper suspect died in Arizona,, this isn't that guy.

Welcome to the Vortex, you can enter but you can never leave.

Oh boy, here we go....is this the Chael guy you referenced above?  

 

 

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4 hours ago, JAGdb said:

Oh boy, here we go....is this the Chael guy you referenced above?  

 

 

Yes, another one of those in that lowest suspect category of people who either know or are related to Cooper, have a great story but no evidence and even contradict the case facts.. some may believe what they say, some are just BS'ers.. and people with limited case knowledge get sucked into these stories.

But, there is an actual "Shelton" suspect the FBI wanted to do DNA on.. He moved to Shelton from Campbell Ca.. 

The Shelton references throughout the FBI are not the same person.. so info has been somewhat conflated. 

There are many many suspects in the FBI files that are mentioned but never resolved..

But, I try to avoid the nonsense suspects because they have sucked a lot of oxygen out of the case and are easily eliminated.. Weber, Reca, LD Cooper, Dayton, Christiansen, Chael's guy, etc...

slightly better but easily eliminated, Peterson, McCoy, Rackstraw...

some others are better but lack info..

Lots of newer people in the case on Reddit chasing false suspects, theories and speculation.. that is part of the learning process. 

Start with the case facts,, not a suspect.

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(edited)

A movie about Tina Mucklow is being made. Somebody should ask Tina how the description for Cooper was put together - specifically who contributed LATIN to the description with enough force that Latin wound up in every FBI description - was it Flo or Tina, or both, and if it was Flo did Tina agree or disagree with that?  Does Tina think Cooper could have been a Native American as in, 'DB Cooper had no facial hair like European's do' ?  ........ which goes to genetics. Maybe the Producer can ask Tina for this upcoming documentary? I hope so!

In fact, would a physical anthropologist see anything, have any reaction, to the physical types portrayed in the Cooper sketches especially regarding racial-ethinic types ? Everyone in the human population fits somewhere into some racial-ethnic group or model of features. DB Cooper was no exception. 

Edited by georger

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