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DB Cooper

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On 3/29/2022 at 12:12 PM, FLYJACK said:

Ulis gets it wrong,,, again

He is looking for the hair sample,, thinks it is lost in Quantico..

Nope,, the very latest mention in the current FBI docs July 2002 has it going to Seattle FBI.

 

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Hair sample last mention in FBI docs puts it in Seattle. (2002)

1998 - Cigarette butts were destroyed.. "years earlier in Las Vegas"

cigbuttsdestroyed.jpeg.4d352f952fe46669ae5794151937518c.jpeg

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(edited)

As if things cant get any stranger ...  read this exchange over at Shutter's forum today:

R99: First, I can also state that (Georger) told me around 2009/2010 that he was the one who recommended that the FBI set up the Citizens Sleuths and contact Tom Kaye.  Carr obviously disagrees with Georger's claim.

Bruce Smith: R99, thanks for corroborating what Georger told me about the Citizen Sleuths.

R99's point of course is Georger's credibility. Never mind R99's credibility!  Hey guys! Why not ask Tom Kaye - duhhhhhhhhhhh.  Before jumping to your mendacity ?

You can read Smith's amazing interview of Carr here: https://themountainnewswa.net/2022/07/23/db-cooper-an-interview-with-former-case-agent-larry-carr/

This is priceless - hilarious! What goes around comes around? All I can say is: Thank you Larry Carr ! :D  Please return to scheduled programming. Thank you.

santaclaus.jpg

Edited by georger

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2 hours ago, georger said:

As if things cant get any stranger ...  read this exchange over at Shutter's forum today:

R99: First, I can also state that (Georger) told me around 2009/2010 that he was the one who recommended that the FBI set up the Citizens Sleuths and contact Tom Kaye.  Carr obviously disagrees with Georger's claim.

Bruce Smith: R99, thanks for corroborating what Georger told me about the Citizen Sleuths.

R99's point of course is Georger's credibility. Never mind R99's credibility!  Hey guys! Why not ask Tom Kaye - duhhhhhhhhhhh.  Before jumping to your mendacity ?

You can read Smith's amazing interview of Carr here: https://themountainnewswa.net/2022/07/23/db-cooper-an-interview-with-former-case-agent-larry-carr/

This is priceless - hilarious! What goes around comes around? All I can say is: Thank you Larry Carr ! :D  Please return to scheduled programming. Thank you.

santaclaus.jpg

Aren’t you listed as a Citizen Sleuth? I figured Larry knew you well. 

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2 hours ago, georger said:

As if things cant get any stranger ...  read this exchange over at Shutter's forum today:

R99: First, I can also state that (Georger) told me around 2009/2010 that he was the one who recommended that the FBI set up the Citizens Sleuths and contact Tom Kaye.  Carr obviously disagrees with Georger's claim.

Bruce Smith: R99, thanks for corroborating what Georger told me about the Citizen Sleuths.

R99's point of course is Georger's credibility. Never mind R99's credibility!  Hey guys! Why not ask Tom Kaye - duhhhhhhhhhhh.  Before jumping to your mendacity ?

You can read Smith's amazing interview of Carr here: https://themountainnewswa.net/2022/07/23/db-cooper-an-interview-with-former-case-agent-larry-carr/

This is priceless - hilarious! What goes around comes around? All I can say is: Thank you Larry Carr ! :D  Please return to scheduled programming. Thank you.

santaclaus.jpg

I was surprised that Larry Carr didn't recognise your name given that he posted on DZ and appeared to read it.

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3 hours ago, georger said:

As if things cant get any stranger ...  read this exchange over at Shutter's forum today:

R99: First, I can also state that (Georger) told me around 2009/2010 that he was the one who recommended that the FBI set up the Citizens Sleuths and contact Tom Kaye.  Carr obviously disagrees with Georger's claim.

Bruce Smith: R99, thanks for corroborating what Georger told me about the Citizen Sleuths.

R99's point of course is Georger's credibility. Never mind R99's credibility!  Hey guys! Why not ask Tom Kaye - duhhhhhhhhhhh.  Before jumping to your mendacity ?

You can read Smith's amazing interview of Carr here: https://themountainnewswa.net/2022/07/23/db-cooper-an-interview-with-former-case-agent-larry-carr/

This is priceless - hilarious! What goes around comes around? All I can say is: Thank you Larry Carr ! :D  Please return to scheduled programming. Thank you.

santaclaus.jpg

As plainly stated above, the entire point is that you and Carr have different versions of the matter.  TK is free to post anywhere if he wishes to get involved in this.

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4 hours ago, Robert99 said:

As plainly stated above, the entire point is that you and Carr have different versions of the matter.  TK is free to post anywhere if he wishes to get involved in this.

No. Its Carr telling Smith to gfy 'Im not going to tell you a damned thing, about anything'. 

Why dont you quit while you're behind!

You are free to contact TK at any time, wiseguy.  

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(edited)
4 hours ago, Jay Ritchie said:

I was surprised that Larry Carr didn't recognise your name given that he posted on DZ and appeared to read it.

Tom and I are smiling about it. It appears to me that Carr was not happy having to answer any questions with the interviewer. We all know the facts. It is possible so much time has passed since those years that Carr may have forgotten .... once Tom and his team got going and I dropped out I had no further contact with Larry Carr. I had contact with Curtis however .... I think its funny that R99 is trying to make something of this. The fact is Tom and I are laughing! It's hilarious!!!!!!!!! :D  

But it diverts away from Cooper discussion and that I dont like. Larry still says he considers Cooper a 'no pull'  ... Smith should have asked WHY!? Thats the kind of information we need. Another opportunity lost.

Time really does take away people's memories of the case. The public seems to forget that. I could give examples Im working with right now, where people who worked on the case are forgetting basic facts .... like directions at Tena Bar. Where the digging started and where it stopped! Then we laugh and agents apologize for making common mistakes. Im tolerant and its all good fun so it usually works out. All in a day's work on htis case. Most of us know this and take it one day at a time. 

 

Edited by georger

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5 hours ago, CooperNWO305 said:

Aren’t you listed as a Citizen Sleuth? I figured Larry knew you well. 

Fact. On Tom's first original site, I am listed first on his credits page on the back page. Can I please get back to Cooper ?? Thanks. 

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(edited)
17 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

Not necessarily, lots of tiny fragments are probably from the erosion or missing bills..

Palmer was asked about the bills at 3 ft depth, he said no, they were probably moved from the excavation process. It is easy to see how many tiny frags could be left behind and moved during excavation.

There might be a thousands frags here.. could be from 1 or 2 bills.. but the volume isn't greater than the 3 packets. 

I don't see it as evidence of a deposit by a dredge. 

 

g12fragments.jpg.53a3225314f4fc1dfbf3b8715a5cf86e.jpg

 

Some bigger..

tbarfrag2.jpeg.7dd2bcb97f2bc88978642fbcf4ff146e.jpeg

The plastic boxes are probably debris from the evidence folders.  Too small to be "fragments" collected at Tena Bar. Could still  be important forensically. Brian's bills were given to him in the same FBI evidence folders (shown below with red tape) and Brian reported his folders were full of similar tiny money dust and debris (from prior handling ?). I told him to preserve that debris because it could be important evidence. Who knows what he did ...  

money eee.JPG

Edited by georger
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(edited)
10 hours ago, georger said:

The plastic boxes are probably debris from the evidence folders.  Too small to be "fragments" collected at Tena Bar. Could still  be important forensically. Brian's bills were given to him in the same FBI evidence folders (shown below with red tape) and Brian reported his folders were full of similar tiny money dust and debris (from prior handling ?). I told him to preserve that debris because it could be important evidence. Who knows what he did ...  

money eee.JPG

I don't think so..

 

Carr stated.. "LC – I never saw those shards. There were plenty of smaller pieces, and they were stored in small plastic boxes."

The pieces are divided up by size and coded.. that wouldn't happen if it was debris from the bills already in evidence. It indicates the results of collection.

Q59 was submitted for sand/soil analysis.. that would be done on collected evidence not debris from later..

 

Edited by FLYJACK

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13 hours ago, georger said:

No. Its Carr telling Smith to gfy 'Im not going to tell you a damned thing, about anything'. 

Why dont you quit while you're behind!

You are free to contact TK at any time, wiseguy.  

Georger, Your twisted psyche is apparently seeing things in Carr's statements that I certainly don't see.

Bruce Smith and I were just repeating and confirming things that you had told each of us independently.

You are in over your head in the Cooper matter and your bruised ego seems to be taking charge of your actions and claims.

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(edited)
20 minutes ago, Robert99 said:

Georger, Your twisted psyche is apparently seeing things in Carr's statements that I certainly don't see.

Bruce Smith and I were just repeating and confirming things that you had told each of us independently.

You are in over your head in the Cooper matter and your bruised ego seems to be taking charge of your actions and claims.

Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar !

Bruised ego? Psyche ? Bruce Smith & I ? Georger told each of us ... independently ?  Taking charge of your actions ... ?

Is this bigger than Watergate ?  Knick knack, paddy whack, Give a dog a bone.

Edited by georger

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3 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

I don't think so..

 

Carr stated.. "LC – I never saw those shards. There were plenty of smaller pieces, and they were stored in small plastic boxes."

The pieces are divided up by size and coded.. that wouldn't happen if it was debris from the bills already in evidence. It indicates the results of collection.

Q59 was submitted for sand/soil analysis.. that would be done on collected evidence not debris from later..

 

You are posing hypotheticals that nobody can answer -

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16 minutes ago, georger said:

You are posing hypotheticals that nobody can answer -

Those are not hypotheticals..

LC said that.. meaning those are the small plastic boxes with fragments he saw in evidence.

The fragments are labelled/coded and divided by size and Q59 was tested for sand/soil..

Those things are not consistent with debris/pieces separating from the bills later..

and there are probably a thousand tiny bits there,, consistent with DS..

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38 minutes ago, Nicholas Broughton said:

Hey fly is there a 302 stating two packing cards were found in the main cooper left aboard 305?

Sort of,, two packing cards are listed but it states that the #60-9707 one was found in the pocket of the back chute left on the plane. It also lists the #226 packing card but doesn't say where it was found.

The 302's state one packing card was found in the back chute left behind S/N 60-9707 July, 1960 packed by Cossey May 21, 1971, but it doesn't match the packing card in the chute returned to Hayden S/N 226 Sept, 1957 also packed by Cossey May 21, 1971.

Clearly these two packing cards (packed by Cossey same date) match Haydens two back chutes.. since #226 was returned to Hayden then the #60-9707 must be the one Cooper used.

Cooper probably pulled the two cards to check them and put the #60-9707 card back in the chute (#226) he left behind.. that chute was returned to Hayden with the correct #226 card.

The #60-9707 was a Pioneer Steinthal so Hayden's chutes were basically the same, as he told Bruce Smith. Cooper simply chose the newer one. 

Cossey was either guessing about the chute or lying.. his description was wrong.

Finally, that means that the FBI based on Cossey was looking for the wrong chute and may have rejected a found chute that belonged to Cooper.

Are we having fun yet???

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I think I tried this before, but I'll do it again. I hope Bruce sees this as well.

And I suck at internet searches, so I couldn't find anything that definitively conflates this. 377 could probably help.

But, as general information...

I always note when you guys cite 'Pioneer Steinthal' chutes, as opposed to "NB-6' or 'NB-8'.

'The Pioneer Parachute Company', and 'M. Steinthal and Company' are separate companies that manufactured parachute components. (Butler, and Switlick were others.)

NB-6 and NB-8 are designations of particular parachute rigs that were apparently contracted by the military. I believe 'NB' designates 'Navy Backpack', and the 6 or 8 probably meant whether they were sized for 26' or 28' parachutes.

It is possible that Pioneer and/or Steinthal won contracts to manufacture the NB's or parts thereof.

A quick look at pictures shows that Hayden's rig at least resembles an NB.

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(edited)
29 minutes ago, dudeman17 said:

I think I tried this before, but I'll do it again. I hope Bruce sees this as well.

And I suck at internet searches, so I couldn't find anything that definitively conflates this. 377 could probably help.

But, as general information...

I always note when you guys cite 'Pioneer Steinthal' chutes, as opposed to "NB-6' or 'NB-8'.

'The Pioneer Parachute Company', and 'M. Steinthal and Company' are separate companies that manufactured parachute components. (Butler, and Switlick were others.)

NB-6 and NB-8 are designations of particular parachute rigs that were apparently contracted by the military. I believe 'NB' designates 'Navy Backpack', and the 6 or 8 probably meant whether they were sized for 26' or 28' parachutes.

It is possible that Pioneer and/or Steinthal won contracts to manufacture the NB's or parts thereof.

A quick look at pictures shows that Hayden's rig at least resembles an NB.

I hear you but this subject is far more complex than I have laid out... yes, a Pioneer can be an NB6 but Cooper's chute was never referred to as a Pioneer. Only the chute left behind was referred to as a Pioneer.

The #60-9707 was described in FBI files as a Pioneer Steinthal..

The chute left behind was called the Pioneer. It was, they both were.

Cossey was told a Pioneer back chute was found on the plane,, he then said an NB6/8 was used by Cooper based on the Pioneer being found..

Cossey's description of "Cooper's" chute did not match the prior description. It wasn't just the NB6/8 claim that Cossey got different. The colour and material was also different.

Cossey claimed the back chute left on the plane was returned to him. It was returned to Hayden.

Cossey claimed he modified the handle. 

Hayden claimed the chutes were the same but Cossey claimed they were completely different.

Cossey later claimed the chutes came from his house.

Cossey claimed he had the packing records but when pressed never produced them.

Cossey correctly believed the back chutes were going to be collected from Issaquah with the chest chutes.. but before that happened they secured the two back chutes from Hayden.. So, when Cossey was first contacted he assumed they were his from Issaquah. He was told the Pioneer was left and assumed the other was his custom NB6/8. He must have figured out his error but never corrected it.

Cossey was completely unreliable.. 

Edited by FLYJACK

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(edited)
9 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

Those are not hypotheticals..

LC said that.. meaning those are the small plastic boxes with fragments he saw in evidence.

The fragments are labelled/coded and divided by size and Q59 was tested for sand/soil..

Those things are not consistent with debris/pieces separating from the bills later..

and there are probably a thousand tiny bits there,, consistent with DS..

what does DS mean? 

The FBI did not collect/save micro sized "anything" at Tena Bar  to be put in a plastic box in the Seattle office basement. I have shown two agents these plastic boxes - they dont know what they are or where it came from, but THEY speculate it is debris from the evidence folders, so the idea of debris from evidence folders is not mine! Since you seem to know everything about this why dont YOU tell US what this debris is and where it came from. Outer space?    

Edited by georger

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(edited)
10 minutes ago, georger said:

what does DS mean? 

The FBI did not collect/save micro sized "anything" at Tena Bar  to be put in a plastic box. I have shown two agents these plastic boxes - they dont know what they are, but THEY speculate it is debris from the evidence folders, so the idea of debris from evidence folders is not mine! Since you seem to know everything about this why dont YOU tell US what this debris is and where it came from. Outer space?     

So, they are speculating and probably wrong. The pieces are divided by size and Q59 labelling is consistent with collection at TBAR, NOT debris from later.. If later it wouldn't have Q59 and it was tested March, 1980.. 

Anymore questions..

 

Edited by FLYJACK

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1 minute ago, FLYJACK said:

So, they are speculating and probably wrong. The pieces are divided by size and Q59 labelling is consistent with collection at TBAR, NOT debris from later.. If later it wouldn't have Q59 and it was tested March, 1980.. 

Anymore questions..

 

what does DS mean - I dont read your code.

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(edited)

So all of this (3 packages) was submission Q59.

'Specimen Q59 contains (rounded) sand which indicates it was subjected to erosion processes, i.e. moving water, and is consistent with having come from sediment which is deposited by the Columbia River. Q59 is enclosed herewith. The disposition of Q58 will be furnished with. the results of the requested finger print examination.'

Then from another document:

'Q59 (is) Soil from submitted U. S. currency Result of examination Q58 unknown amout of currency will be sent separately . . . '   

So the tiny stuff is soil or sand from the bills or fragments ?    :$

Has the returned Hayden chute been swabbed for dna ?

 

g12fragments.jpg.53a3225314f4fc1dfbf3b8715a5cf86e.jpg

Edited by georger

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1 hour ago, FLYJACK said:

I hear you but this subject is far more complex...

I get all that. And Cossey was all over the place, so who knows what his trip was.

I was addressing the nomenclature and what all that means. I don't know who first came up with the term "Pioneer Steinthal", but using it as though it names a particular rig is not accurate. They were separate companies. Likely it refers to a container manufactured by Pioneer, containing a canopy manufactured by Steinthal, or something like that. And using that term as though it precludes the rig from being an NB-6/8 could also be inaccurate. It's quite possible that Pioneer made the NB containers. So then it would be like arguing whether a car is a Chevy or a Camaro.

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