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DB Cooper

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2 hours ago, CooperNWO305 said:

R99, Georger, separate from this communication.  As I understand from Flyjack, there are still communications that have not been released yet?  R99, I think I saw you post about that on the DB Cooper Forum at some point too.  Is this accurate?  The ones not released would be comms from Flight 305 with Northwest.

How many sets of comms were there?

1. Flight 305 by radio to Seattle Air Traffic Control?

2.  Flight 305 by radio to Northwest Airlines in Minneapolis?  This has not been released yet??

3, 4???

FlyJack is correct.  Some of those missing communications are what we have been discussing above.

The airliner was communicating with air traffic control people over the usual radio frequencies.  It was also communicating with NWA stations in Seattle and Minneapolis over the ARINC radio frequency by phone patch and by teletype versions of those radio/telephone communications.

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(edited)
2 hours ago, Robert99 said:

To the best of my knowledge, WSHM has not endorsed any flight path.  I take sole responsibility for the Western Flight Path and claiming that there are 17, or maybe it is 19, redactions in the Seattle Air Traffic Control transcripts.  The WSHM digital group concluded that there were redactions in the ARINC teletype transcripts after studying the George Harrison papers that were loaned to them.  

R99 answer the man's question. Stop the obfuscation.

This is quite simple imho. A few people are trying to link the money (find) with a flight path. If the money had been found on the next guy's property - the new fp would be there. If at Cat Isle, then there. If at Portland, then there. If at Troutdale, then there. If in Brazil, then there ........................ and on and on etc.

Quote: "If the money is here then Cooper was here, in person." (Loren Jones, Deputy). 'The Heisson store robbery may have been Cooper but there is a gap between that and money being found in the area in 1980. Find something that connects the two and you have found Cooper...'

The official flight path is not going to be changed unless something concrete surfaces. The claims of a few people are not evidence.

Another mystery: TK examined 4 bills. Only one bill clearly showed diatoms. But, the year or years of those diatoms is unknown, so far. The diatom issue has yet to be clearly resolved. 

Edited by georger

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(edited)

Possible new info has emerged about the dredging at T Bar - agents who were at the Ingram find explain further in new interviews. Pieces of money distributed through a fan shaped segment from 8"-1.5 ft deep "looked chopped" and were completely unassociated with the Ingram bundles themselves as per the Bruce Smith allegation. "We left hundreds of small pieces of money in the sand when we left . . . "

Both agents were interviewed at length for the Netflix (Colbert) production due to be broadcast. More to come...  

Edited by georger

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7 hours ago, georger said:

Another mystery: TK examined 4 bills. Only one bill clearly showed diatoms. But, the year or years of those diatoms is unknown, so far. The diatom issue has yet to be clearly resolved. 

 

I have a question about diatoms. This has probably been addressed somewhere, but I'm not very good at searches. How rugged are they? The diatoms represent an exposure to water at a certain time of year. But what if the bills were exposed to water again? Would the old diatoms remain, and both sets be found, or would the old ones wash away and be replaced by the new ones? So do the diatoms represent the only time the bills were exposed to water, or possibly just the last time they were?

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25 minutes ago, dudeman17 said:

 

I have a question about diatoms. This has probably been addressed somewhere, but I'm not very good at searches. How rugged are they? The diatoms represent an exposure to water at a certain time of year. But what if the bills were exposed to water again? Would the old diatoms remain, and both sets be found, or would the old ones wash away and be replaced by the new ones? So do the diatoms represent the only time the bills were exposed to water, or possibly just the last time they were?

Fragile,, glass like.

They were found on an inside bill deeper in.. from the edge.

The theory is they were introduced when the money was first exposed to the water as the money got wet fanned out and sank. The packets became solidified in the sand with the diatoms effectively sealed within. Diatoms are too fragile to go through the sand to the money.

So, the spring/summer diatoms and lack of winter diatoms indicates that the money was first introduced to the Columbia River in a spring/summer from '72 to '79.... an obvious delay from the date of the hijacking. Now, there are many scenarios that one can come up with from there..

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1 hour ago, FLYJACK said:

Fragile,, glass like.

They were found on an inside bill deeper in.. from the edge.

The theory is they were introduced when the money was first exposed to the water as the money got wet fanned out and sank. The packets became solidified in the sand with the diatoms effectively sealed within. Diatoms are too fragile to go through the sand to the money.

So, the spring/summer diatoms and lack of winter diatoms indicates that the money was first introduced to the Columbia River in a spring/summer from '72 to '79.... an obvious delay from the date of the hijacking. Now, there are many scenarios that one can come up with from there..

agree for the most part. I dont know that the bills were ever in a condition to fan out  The bills could have been stationary high on the bank then exposed to Columbia water as the water level rose. Im not even sure we have a representative sample of all of the bills in the Ingram find alone, let alone the whole 200k. The good news is Tom finally found diatoms on one bill. That is a hard won victory (laughing) ...   :D

Tom needs to test the found fragments for diatoms! Getting that to happen is a tall order. Those frags were believed by agents to have been sent to the Washington Lab ?  Has anyone seen them since? They arent in Seattle. 

Edited by georger

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(edited)

During conversations with agents today several subjects were covered:

Agents interviewed today recall the Heisson Store robbery was solved and it was not DB Cooper but a local from the area that was arrested. An arrest was made in that case and several 302s were generated citing the news. Records of the matter may still be available through the Clark County Sherriff. Fill out the appropriate form to ask for records ...  

Original searches for Cooper: The main issue was manpower. The hijacking generated larger than normal public interest. Every level of law enforcement was looking for Cooper, in one form or another for weeks. Members of the public volunteered and helped conduct searches and canvassing (talking to people) at Portland, Vancouver, Seattle, and large numbers of people from the public helped conduct searches as search areas were identified and news spread ... and the discovery of Cooper money in 1980 intensified public participation, all over again. Each FBI office had people assigned to keep in touch with the public in running dialogues which lasted years in some cases.  

 

Edited by georger
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5 hours ago, georger said:

During conversations with agents today several subjects were covered:

Agents interviewed today recall the Heisson Store robbery was solved and it was not DB Cooper but a local from the area that was arrested. An arrest was made in that case and several 302s were generated citing the news. Records of the matter may still be available through the Clark County Sherriff. Fill out the appropriate form to ask for records ...  

Original searches for Cooper: The main issue was manpower. The hijacking generated larger than normal public interest. Every level of law enforcement was looking for Cooper, in one form or another for weeks. Members of the public volunteered and helped conduct searches and canvassing (talking to people) at Portland, Vancouver, Seattle, and large numbers of people from the public helped conduct searches as search areas were identified and news spread ... and the discovery of Cooper money in 1980 intensified public participation, all over again. Each FBI office had people assigned to keep in touch with the public in running dialogues which lasted years in some cases.  

 

Sounds like maybe this crew did some research on the case. That’s good. 

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17 hours ago, georger said:

During conversations with agents today several subjects were covered:

Agents interviewed today recall the Heisson Store robbery was solved and it was not DB Cooper but a local from the area that was arrested. An arrest was made in that case and several 302s were generated citing the news. Records of the matter may still be available through the Clark County Sherriff. Fill out the appropriate form to ask for records ... 

 

It's nice to have closure on the Heisson Store robbery. Maybe a little disappointing, but anything we can rule out as not involved in the case only helps us narrow down the right areas of focus.

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3 hours ago, Coopericane said:

It's nice to have closure on the Heisson Store robbery. Maybe a little disappointing, but anything we can rule out as not involved in the case only helps us narrow down the right areas of focus.

I still think somebody needs to get the files just to be sure ? You have to file an application to see the files.

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14 hours ago, georger said:

I still think somebody needs to get the files just to be sure ? You have to file an application to see the files.

Was the Heisson store specifically mentioned because it wasn't in the 302..

only the general area was mentioned. It wasn't named in the 302 we have..

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1 hour ago, FLYJACK said:

Was the Heisson store specifically mentioned because it wasn't in the 302..

only the general area was mentioned. It wasn't named in the 302 we have..

Its been mentioned by name by two agents and by the Sheriff's Dept - thats all I know.

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2 hours ago, georger said:

Why take a Cooper special to Netflix?  See a few stats: https://www.demandsage.com/netflix-subscribers/

Don't really have high hopes for this thing...

Slight chance we learn something new..

https://www.oregonlive.com/entertainment/2022/07/the-unsolved-case-of-skyjacker-db-cooper-is-explored-again-in-new-netflix-documentary-series.html

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I saw some discussion on Cooper's appearance and how his nose looked.  Attached are a number of references to how his nose and face looked wider than shown in the composites.  These come from multiple witnesses.  I've believed for a while that the composites show a better looking man than may have been the case.  Not one witness ever said DB Cooper was handsome.  The initial sketch looks like a movie star, and the third sketch (B) certainly looks like a movie star (James Bond, or one of Cary Grant's characters).  The sad reality is that most of us just don't look that good.  Noses do in a sense grow over time, something to do with cartilage shrinking/not shrinking. Old men seem to have bigger noses and bigger ears.

Note: I would hazard a guess that most of the people who have a passing interest in the Cooper case have never once looked at a 302, and if they have, they have not looked at them in depth like us on this forum.

DB Cooper nose 302s.pdf

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8 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

Most hijackers had a mental illness..

Right, but they were not all found mentally incompetent.  Most were actually charged and sentenced as regular criminals. If Cooper saw that he had a chance to be charged as a mental patient, it could have helped with his motivation.

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4 hours ago, CooperNWO305 said:

I saw some discussion on Cooper's appearance and how his nose looked.  Attached are a number of references to how his nose and face looked wider than shown in the composites.  These come from multiple witnesses.  I've believed for a while that the composites show a better looking man than may have been the case.  Not one witness ever said DB Cooper was handsome.  The initial sketch looks like a movie star, and the third sketch (B) certainly looks like a movie star (James Bond, or one of Cary Grant's characters).  The sad reality is that most of us just don't look that good.  Noses do in a sense grow over time, something to do with cartilage shrinking/not shrinking. Old men seem to have bigger noses and bigger ears.

Note: I would hazard a guess that most of the people who have a passing interest in the Cooper case have never once looked at a 302, and if they have, they have not looked at them in depth like us on this forum.

DB Cooper nose 302s.pdf 1.99 MB · 3 downloads

Sketch A is garbage and should be ignored, if your suspect looks like sketch A he can be eliminated, sketch B is better. 

The descriptions by witnesses are more important than the sketches themselves. 

The image I have from a witness does show a wider nose..

Problem is the sketches are front only giving one flat perspective. One stew said she never saw Cooper's front angle.. most witnesses saw the side profile-3/4 view..

The FBI discussed doing a profile sketch but one has never been released.

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3 minutes ago, CooperNWO305 said:

Right, but they were not all found mentally incompetent.  Most were actually charged and sentenced as regular criminals. If Cooper saw that he had a chance to be charged as a mental patient, it could have helped with his motivation.

Yes, the legal standard is higher than a clinical one..

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20 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

Sketch A is garbage and should be ignored, if your suspect looks like sketch A he can be eliminated, sketch B is better. 

The descriptions by witnesses are more important than the sketches themselves. 

The image I have from a witness does show a wider nose..

Problem is the sketches are front only giving one flat perspective. One stew said she never saw Cooper's front angle.. most witnesses saw the side profile-3/4 view..

The FBI discussed doing a profile sketch but one has never been released.

Good info on the wider nose.

A 3/4 profile sketch would be good.  Something else I'd be curious as to if anyone saw the top of his head.  I'm now in the DB Cooper age range, and for the past few years, hair loss has been a conversation point for my and my male friends.  Some guys are bald, some are receeding, but some are just losing hair in the middle top of their head, so from the side and front they look pretty normal, but if you are all enough or see them sitting down, you see that bald spot.  My guess is that if someone saw a bald spot that they would have mentioned it.

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(edited)

Chaucer's calculations are completely wrong...

He is using the dimensions of the bag, not the dimensions of the money. The bag is not solid or water or air tight.

I get 801 cu inches for the money, that is 13,126 cu cm. (there are several estimates given for the money size)

 

1 packet of 100 bills..   0.5 thick x 2.61 wide x 6.14 long = 8.0127 cu inches

x100 packets = 801 cu inches or 13,126 cu cm (801 inches is about 10 x 10 x 8)

I get a slightly less weight number than 10.35 kg but we'll use it for comparison.

plug in numbers... density = 0.7885 just below the density of water. (0.0552 is ridiculous and should have been caught as such)

Now, with a 0.7885 density just below water the money bag would float initially until the money absorbed enough water to put it over the density of water at 1. With a slightly less weight as I calculated the density would drop a slight amount but the effect remains. Exactly what Tom Kaye found with the single packet, floated initially then sank as it became water saturated.

 

also,

the money went into the bag in banded bundles of packets, not individual packets.

 

 

Edited by FLYJACK
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