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DB Cooper

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(edited)
1 hour ago, ParrotheadVol said:

I agree. With 4 episodes, there should be plenty of time to dive into Tom Kaye's research and also to take a hard look at the tie. Instead, we probably get the same old info on the same old suspects that we all know aren't Cooper. I'm sure we also get a heavy dose of Rackstraw and Colbert as well. I appreciate what Colbert did with the FOIA and the 302's, but at the end of the day, I doubt he could beat a couple of 12 year old's at a game of Clue, much less solve the DB Cooper case. 

I talked to TC recently about where the case is headed, forensically and otherwise. Tom said lots of new material on Rackstraw has emerged as a result of his 40 member team's new work. So stay tuned. I got the impression Tom is bearing down 'hard' on Rackstraw based on new information. ............................................. 

I like to talk to people directly rather than conjecture. 

Edited by georger
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10 hours ago, georger said:

I talked to TC recently about where the case is headed, forensically and otherwise. Tom said lots of new material on Rackstraw has emerged as a result of his 40 member team's new work. So stay tuned. I got the impression Tom is bearing down 'hard' on Rackstraw based on new information. ............................................. 

I like to talk to people directly rather than conjecture. 

Did he say that this new information would be covered in the upcoming Netflix doc? I'll gladly listen to what he has and if he proves me wrong then great. It won't be the first plate of crow I've had to eat. 

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12 hours ago, georger said:

I talked to TC recently about where the case is headed, forensically and otherwise. Tom said lots of new material on Rackstraw has emerged as a result of his 40 member team's new work. So stay tuned. I got the impression Tom is bearing down 'hard' on Rackstraw based on new information. ............................................. 

I like to talk to people directly rather than conjecture. 

Call it conjecture or whatever.  TC has a history, a pattern, a series of trends.  We all know where he is going with things.  "Lots of new material on Rackstraw."  Sure.   One of my favorites is how they tout this 100 pieces of evidence on Rackstraw.  It is not evidence, it is information.  For instance is this evidence:

"On October 20, 1963 the Santa Cruz Police Department found an intoxicated Robert Rackstraw with fake identification" 

How is this evidence? The fact is that every suspect has good information about them, but to call their life story "evidence" is a bit misleading.  Information is a good word, theory too.

Here is their list of evidence on Rackstraw.  He was 28 at the time, does not look like any witness description, and did not have the temperament to be DB Cooper.

I'd be curious to know if the investigation team is so caught up in the details that they can't see the forest for the trees, or is it that they are fanatical true believers, or is there an integrity issue here?

https://dbcooper.com/evidence/

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46 minutes ago, ParrotheadVol said:

When do we get to see???

Not sure,, If I share it publicly, it will blow up this case and be stolen by others... I need to protect this for now.

It is never seen evidence from a witness that can be used to eliminate a suspect but not necessarily point to a specific individual suspect..

It narrows down the suspect pool to a very very small cohort.

I think it is the biggest piece of case evidence I have seen in decades..

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Georger: How well versed are you on the McCrone part of the Citizen Sleuths website, or was Tom Kaye the one who focused on that? I was looking at the Excel spreadsheets on the elements and noticed that the summary tabs only hit on the major elements found, and not all the elements that were actually found on the tie.  This makes sense because the site says something along those lines.  I've been focusing on the overall summaries. For instance, the summary might say Gold, but that is the element in the Excel row with the highest percentage, listed as First Element. But also in that row are Silver, Aluminum, and Sulphur.

What I'm trying to figure out is what each row means.  Each tab on the spreadsheet has the same stub that was used, but each row for that stub is different.  Tom Kaye has said that there is no way to know if an element was found combined with another one, but I'm wondering if elements were found together. Example: Pepperoni and Cheese may be found together in a pizza, but they may not be combined together, just one on top of the other.  I know this is a loose example.

What leads me to look at the McCrone analysis more is a desire to see if McCrone has other data from their research that they can compare to the DB Cooper tie data and see if there is overlap.

There could be 50 elements in this data, not just titanium.  It will take me a while to pull out all of them.  

I guess one could look at the elements and decide anything they want.  For instance, I could pull out Vanadium and say that it came from coal dust.  

I've theorized that Cooper was a working man and worked in some industrial setting (as have many others theorized the same thing).  

As I was looking at the McCrone site, I perused their press releases.  There are a few on DB Cooper, but what caught my eye was on one coal analysis:  https://www.mccrone.com/media-coverage/fox10-news-investigates-coal-uncovered/

Also one on stolen currency.  You need to be a member to read the whole thing.

https://www.mccrone.com/media-coverage/laboratory-analysis-of-stolen-currency-paper-money/

Bottom line is that a lot of folks love to talk about the titanium and not the other 50 elements.  I think McCrone could give us some good info just by comparing the stubs to other analysis that they've done.  I would still like to see some other clothing items analyzed besides Cooper's tie and a Boeing tie. Flyjack I think you were working some angle on this too.

 

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5 hours ago, CooperNWO305 said:

Georger: How well versed are you on the McCrone part of the Citizen Sleuths website, or was Tom Kaye the one who focused on that? I was looking at the Excel spreadsheets on the elements and noticed that the summary tabs only hit on the major elements found, and not all the elements that were actually found on the tie.  This makes sense because the site says something along those lines.  I've been focusing on the overall summaries. For instance, the summary might say Gold, but that is the element in the Excel row with the highest percentage, listed as First Element. But also in that row are Silver, Aluminum, and Sulphur.

What I'm trying to figure out is what each row means.  Each tab on the spreadsheet has the same stub that was used, but each row for that stub is different.  Tom Kaye has said that there is no way to know if an element was found combined with another one, but I'm wondering if elements were found together. Example: Pepperoni and Cheese may be found together in a pizza, but they may not be combined together, just one on top of the other.  I know this is a loose example.

What leads me to look at the McCrone analysis more is a desire to see if McCrone has other data from their research that they can compare to the DB Cooper tie data and see if there is overlap.

There could be 50 elements in this data, not just titanium.  It will take me a while to pull out all of them.  

I guess one could look at the elements and decide anything they want.  For instance, I could pull out Vanadium and say that it came from coal dust.  

I've theorized that Cooper was a working man and worked in some industrial setting (as have many others theorized the same thing).  

As I was looking at the McCrone site, I perused their press releases.  There are a few on DB Cooper, but what caught my eye was on one coal analysis:  https://www.mccrone.com/media-coverage/fox10-news-investigates-coal-uncovered/

Also one on stolen currency.  You need to be a member to read the whole thing.

https://www.mccrone.com/media-coverage/laboratory-analysis-of-stolen-currency-paper-money/

Bottom line is that a lot of folks love to talk about the titanium and not the other 50 elements.  I think McCrone could give us some good info just by comparing the stubs to other analysis that they've done.  I would still like to see some other clothing items analyzed besides Cooper's tie and a Boeing tie. Flyjack I think you were working some angle on this too.

 

The spreadsheets are bit tricky at first,

Particles are listed for stubs, they are listed by the primary ingredient then the other ingredients are listed and then broken down by percentages. With 100,000 + particles you get a massive number of combinations.. almost unusable.

Ulis claimed the very very few particles of Ti SB are unique to one patent and plant, they aren't.

The theory is good but the attribution is incorrect.

IMO, with so many combinations you can find almost any combination and those combinations aren't necessarily alloys.

The trick is to pick out a unique, rare or pure one.. and track it down.. but there are so many sources known and unknown, it is impossible to be definite.

A few other problems..

We don't even know if Cooper was wearing the tie when some or all the particles were deposited.

Safe to say Cooper left the tie but some particles may be pre Cooper or post Cooper.

and the particles may not be from the source,,, but downstream exposure..

Like a mustard stain doesn't mean he worked in a mustard factory.

 

 

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7 hours ago, CooperNWO305 said:

Georger: How well versed are you on the McCrone part of the Citizen Sleuths website, or was Tom Kaye the one who focused on that? I was looking at the Excel spreadsheets on the elements and noticed that the summary tabs only hit on the major elements found, and not all the elements that were actually found on the tie.  This makes sense because the site says something along those lines.  I've been focusing on the overall summaries. For instance, the summary might say Gold, but that is the element in the Excel row with the highest percentage, listed as First Element. But also in that row are Silver, Aluminum, and Sulphur.

What I'm trying to figure out is what each row means.  Each tab on the spreadsheet has the same stub that was used, but each row for that stub is different.  Tom Kaye has said that there is no way to know if an element was found combined with another one, but I'm wondering if elements were found together. Example: Pepperoni and Cheese may be found together in a pizza, but they may not be combined together, just one on top of the other.  I know this is a loose example.

What leads me to look at the McCrone analysis more is a desire to see if McCrone has other data from their research that they can compare to the DB Cooper tie data and see if there is overlap.

There could be 50 elements in this data, not just titanium.  It will take me a while to pull out all of them.  

I guess one could look at the elements and decide anything they want.  For instance, I could pull out Vanadium and say that it came from coal dust.  

I've theorized that Cooper was a working man and worked in some industrial setting (as have many others theorized the same thing).  

As I was looking at the McCrone site, I perused their press releases.  There are a few on DB Cooper, but what caught my eye was on one coal analysis:  https://www.mccrone.com/media-coverage/fox10-news-investigates-coal-uncovered/

Also one on stolen currency.  You need to be a member to read the whole thing.

https://www.mccrone.com/media-coverage/laboratory-analysis-of-stolen-currency-paper-money/

Bottom line is that a lot of folks love to talk about the titanium and not the other 50 elements.  I think McCrone could give us some good info just by comparing the stubs to other analysis that they've done.  I would still like to see some other clothing items analyzed besides Cooper's tie and a Boeing tie. Flyjack I think you were working some angle on this too.

 

I havent spent any time on the McCrone list. Its entirely Tom's project. There are people who specialize in particles (particle analysis/interpretation) but I dont know that any of these people have ever been consulted. I wonder if there isnt software that could find relationships in this large list ? I think this is a project for an experienced specialist...  

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(edited)
1 hour ago, FLYJACK said:

The spreadsheets are bit tricky at first,

Particles are listed for stubs, they are listed by the primary ingredient then the other ingredients are listed and then broken down by percentages. With 100,000 + particles you get a massive number of combinations.. almost unusable.

Ulis claimed the very very few particles of Ti SB are unique to one patent and plant, they aren't.

The theory is good but the attribution is incorrect.

IMO, with so many combinations you can find almost any combination and those combinations aren't necessarily alloys.

The trick is to pick out a unique, rare or pure one.. and track it down.. but there are so many sources known and unknown, it is impossible to be definite.

A few other problems..

We don't even know if Cooper was wearing the tie when some or all the particles were deposited.

Safe to say Cooper left the tie but some particles may be pre Cooper or post Cooper.

and the particles may not be from the source,,, but downstream exposure..

Like a mustard stain doesn't mean he worked in a mustard factory.

 

 

I was astounded at the sheer number of particles and classes of particles,  found on this tie. If you compared this tie with 1000 other ties at random, where would the Cooper tie fall - into what class?  I think Ulis is doing worthless junk science!   

Was Cooper and this tie sitting into front of an air conditioner or a fan that focused particle debris on to his person vs what the average person picks up in the same amount of time ?  Has McCrone offered any opinions about these particles and the sheer number of them?

Edited by georger

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(edited)
1 hour ago, georger said:

I was astounded at the sheer number of particles and classes of particles,  found on this tie. If you compared this tie with 1000 other ties at random, where would the Cooper tie fall - into what class?  I think Ulis is doing junk science!   

I sent Tom Kaye a mid sixties Pennys tie as a control, made with the same Dacron Polyester material for testing.. some of the particles are used in fire retardants, fabric dyes and in the manufacture process of Dacron Polyester.

It is dark blue though and not black... 

Edited by FLYJACK
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Above is a snip of a series of the McCrone spreadsheets.  You can see in the upper left (Detail) how complex it is.  The summary (right) is easier to read.  The part in yellow is just a few columns of the detail sheet. I was interested to see that four elements were listed on each particle.  There are 100s of thousands of these lines. I watched Tom's presentation at CooperCon 2018 and got more info.  I need to dust off some of my detailed Excel training and figure out how to quickly get all the info into one tab so I can count elements.  That may take me a bit.  What will that get me? Not much.  I think it will just say that Cooper was around a lot of equipment, machines, dust, etc.  The guy had a clip on tie, which means he was probably not a CEO.

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How are these not Titanium alloys?  It looks to me if the elements are found together that it could mean they are an alloy.  In Tom Kaye's presentation he discussed the pure titanium as likely being found with Chlorine or salt (depending on if it is the Hunter Process or Kroll Process).  Titanium alloy would contain silicon, aluminum, iron, etc.  It varies.  

I do believe the tie was at a metals shop or a chemicals plant.  Narrowing that down though is a needle in a haystack, unless we had Cooper and then found out he worked at a plant.  That assumes the tie was his.

 

image.png.64784f3b13385bbd64356b42762ec66d.png

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4 minutes ago, CooperNWO305 said:

How are these not Titanium alloys?  It looks to me if the elements are found together that it could mean they are an alloy.  In Tom Kaye's presentation he discussed the pure titanium as likely being found with Chlorine or salt (depending on if it is the Hunter Process or Kroll Process).  Titanium alloy would contain silicon, aluminum, iron, etc.  It varies.  

I do believe the tie was at a metals shop or a chemicals plant.  Narrowing that down though is a needle in a haystack, unless we had Cooper and then found out he worked at a plant.  That assumes the tie was his.

 

image.png.64784f3b13385bbd64356b42762ec66d.png

Not necessarily an alloy.. could be a coated particle.

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19 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

Not necessarily an alloy.. could be a coated particle.

Good point.  Tom mentioned that the tie tack/pin/bar whatever we call it was coated with gold, so the element Au would show up.  The stubs had nickel in them too.  I've counted 34 elements in the first summary from McCrone.  It will take some time to count from the other tabs.  There are something like 118 elements in the periodic chart, but many of those are very rare like plutonium, livermorium, etc.  Long story short, it looks to me like almost every common element in the world was found on that tie.

I had some leads on places to test clothing, but I did not follow up with paying the $1000 or $1500 to do so. It sounds like Flyjack is the only one to have had something tested.

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12 minutes ago, CooperNWO305 said:

Good point.  Tom mentioned that the tie tack/pin/bar whatever we call it was coated with gold, so the element Au would show up.  The stubs had nickel in them too.  I've counted 34 elements in the first summary from McCrone.  It will take some time to count from the other tabs.  There are something like 118 elements in the periodic chart, but many of those are very rare like plutonium, livermorium, etc.  Long story short, it looks to me like almost every common element in the world was found on that tie.

I had some leads on places to test clothing, but I did not follow up with paying the $1000 or $1500 to do so. It sounds like Flyjack is the only one to have had something tested.

Tom has the similar tie and is still working on it..

There are so many particles and combinations it renders them almost useless..

The takeaway is the fact that there are so many... 

 

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(edited)

On the tickets..

They were not signed by the passenger..

Cooper's ticket was :773 and Mitchell's :778, only 5 tickets later.

They both appear to have been written by the same agent.

Cooper's ticket is likely retained by the gate clerk.. "Flight Coupon No. 1"

The top original is retained by the issuing agent.

Mitchell's is the "Passenger's Coupon" retained by the passenger.

Mitchell paid a student fare.

Both are carbon copies ripped from the book, not the top original.

There were no prints of value found on Cooper's ticket.. it was probably removed from the book by the gate agent.

Mitchell's ticket still has the book edging attached.

Ticket.jpg.a42ee6b76b1d190da57f865aa072e77a.jpg

634794946_MitchellNWATicket2P.jpg.a75b5a2223f06080bbe672c32e0f5cec.jpg

 

 

Edited by FLYJACK

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1 hour ago, FLYJACK said:

On the tickets..

They were not signed by the passenger..

Cooper's ticket was :773 and Mitchell's :778, only 5 tickets later.

They both appear to have been written by the same agent.

Cooper's ticket is likely retained by the gate clerk.. "Flight Coupon No. 1"

The top original is retained by the issuing agent.

Mitchell's is the "Passenger's Coupon" retained by the passenger.

Mitchell paid a student fare.

Both are carbon copies ripped from the book, not the top original.

There were no prints of value found on Cooper's ticket.. it was probably removed from the book by the gate agent.

Mitchell's ticket still has the book edging attached.

Ticket.jpg.a42ee6b76b1d190da57f865aa072e77a.jpg

634794946_MitchellNWATicket2P.jpg.a75b5a2223f06080bbe672c32e0f5cec.jpg

 

 

The Cooper ticket shown above is probably the one that the gate agent took from the copies that were in the ticket sleeve given to Cooper by the ticketing agent.

Mitchell's ticket copy appears to be the one that was in his ticket sleeve that was returned to him by the gate agent.

Passengers always ended up with a copy of their ticket for their own records.

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1 hour ago, Robert99 said:

The Cooper ticket shown above is probably the one that the gate agent took from the copies that were in the ticket sleeve given to Cooper by the ticketing agent.

Mitchell's ticket copy appears to be the one that was in his ticket sleeve that was returned to him by the gate agent.

Passengers always ended up with a copy of their ticket for their own records.

Pic of Mitchell’s ticket from CooperCon

87E8FF31-425C-44B3-BDB9-37D274BAEFA8.jpeg

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(edited)
1 hour ago, CooperNWO305 said:

Pic of Mitchell’s ticket from CooperCon

87E8FF31-425C-44B3-BDB9-37D274BAEFA8.jpeg

Yes, the passenger piece is the booklet in the folder,,  the desk and gate rip out their pages..

That means it was unlikely Cooper even touched the gate ticket portion they have..

Edited by FLYJACK

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19 minutes ago, CooperNWO305 said:

Discussion on the Facebook group about maps. Why would pilots need maps? Wouldn’t they have some for their area? And if they didn’t, then what area did Cooper request? 

D0BB65C4-0D91-4DED-8E68-B3F23B8F803C.jpeg

69D6B16B-6E7F-4E94-85BF-9A6EDB065A16.png

This has been asked before without answer - who would answer?

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(edited)
8 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

Tom has the similar tie and is still working on it..

There are so many particles and combinations it renders them almost useless..

The takeaway is the fact that there are so many... 

 

That may mean something but what? Do all of these particles form a cohesive or similar group one would find - where?  Or are multiple diverse environments suggested.

Years ago Tom mentioned using FBI particle analysis software to identify particles and look for relationships/sources? Has that software yielded anything interesting Tom has commented about? Where is Tom posting about this - on Ulis' Facebook site? Maybe Ulis is now in charge of the whole Cooper case ?

Or did this tie come from Larry's Landfill and Parts Yard - Im suspicious. Maybe everything he wore was borrowed? Someone did opin his cloths were miss-matched - who said that? 'He looked disheveled ? Has this tie taken us to the Land of Oz?

Maybe Cooper left this tie precisely to confuse and divert ? The tie does not trace back to Mary's Bakery Shop in Toledo!  (smile) Let me add this about the real DB Cooper:

When Tina pleaded with Cooper at the end, to take his bomb with him when he left, Cooper just stared at her without reply, leaving her to wonder . . . Cooper was a control person right to the end. The evidence of Cooper being a control ( addict?) happens from start to finish throughout this hijacking. The concerns he expressed feed that narrative... be careful: the tie may be a plant and part of his grudge designed to continue and affect other people after he left! 

Edited by georger

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