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DB Cooper

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(edited)
22 minutes ago, CooperNWO305 said:

I haven't seen the smoker one lately, I'll have to look around.  He was clearly a smoker.  I personally think blue eyes should be ruled out.  That leaves brown, and what gets me on that is that somewhere along the line the term "piercing brown eyes" came up.  Someone thought somewhere that Cooper did not just have brown eyes, but really dark brown eyes.  Not sure if this is accurate or not, but I wonder if it came from Flo.  Some people have characteristics that just stand out, so maybe his eyes did stand out.

Larry Carr made an interesting comment on the Facebook page about holdbacks. He basically said that he held back some info in the case that was minor and may be out there now, but that a 90 year old man would remember.  I interpreted this as they had some info, maybe just small, that if a 90 year old suspect was asked, he would remember specifically.  Maybe a scar? Or something little he did.  Asking someone something they said 50 years later does not make sense.  Maybe something in his note?

Here Flo says she remembers the colour of his eyes.. 17:40

but people will always say witnesses are unreliable,,, then nothing about Cooper is ever true and anyone can be Cooper.

 

Edited by FLYJACK

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On 7/17/2022 at 7:06 AM, FLYJACK said:

Air Force pamphlet..

1325404008_ScreenShot2022-06-04at11_23_28AM.png.c1b0ec84f56f852845fc5521dd5df264.png

Can be downloaded here..

https://ia904500.us.archive.org/3/items/b3218282x/b3218282x.pdf

 

 

The redacted name here is Lyle Hazen Cameron. You can clearly see the knowledge this guy had how did cooper know to go to Lyle who would of been your encyclopedia Britannia for jumping a 727 at that time. If you were cooper and were looking to do research on jumping out of jets which is what the Elsinore ghost asked Lyle… he’s the guy you’d want to talk to. It wasn’t the internet age you had to talk to people and that’s what cooper was doing in Elsinore august of 71 talking to LC and only LC based on my research.

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(edited)
On 7/14/2022 at 12:42 PM, FLYJACK said:

I think this came up before..

From Kaye, a total of 79.6 feet of pink cord is missing... but we don't know if it was removed by Cooper or later,,, FBI report only 2 lines were cut..  Cooper likely used 28.2 ft to tie the bag to his waist..

Tina said he initially tried to put the money in the container but abandoned that.. those short white cords may have been his attempt to attach it to himself due to no D rings.

However, those cords are white not pink,, so did they come from the dummy chute??

 

 

 

v02back.jpg

Any 302’s on Tina saying cooper initially tried to put the money in the reserve container fly? Also Gene bland inspected the chutes in Reno the next day. He helped the fbi get convictions in the McCoy and Heady slyjackings. He actually packed Ralph headys chute that he jumped with. Dude is the real deal and testifies to there being a complete chest and the canopy of another on 305. He has recently passed it would of been nice to question him further on that fact. 

82084421-AE46-4BA7-A942-59E5F7A9A2C3.jpeg

Edited by Nicholas Broughton

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1 hour ago, Nicholas Broughton said:

Any 302’s on Tina saying cooper initially tried to put the money in the reserve container fly? Also Gene bland inspected the chutes in Reno the next day. He helped the fbi get convictions in the McCoy and Heady slyjackings. He actually packed Ralph headys chute that he jumped with. Dude is the real deal and testifies to there being a complete chest and the canopy of another on 305. He has recently passed it would of been nice to question him further on that fact. 

82084421-AE46-4BA7-A942-59E5F7A9A2C3.jpeg

yes,,

941625561_ScreenShot2022-07-21at4_19_08PM.png.3c2970f0b818109bf2a768d4ec7d8fa4.png

FBI files say chutes were inspected by Sergeant Daniel Girolamo, Nov 26.

2014454273_ScreenShot2022-07-21at4_23_11PM.png.efa0b273cc30464e5c6d88cb4a9640c6.png

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(edited)
43 minutes ago, Nicholas Broughton said:

It says DG inspected the chute in may. Bland says he was the first to inspect the chutes the following day on the plane in Reno. 

DG inspected it before the Nov 26/71 document date...  Cossey inspected and Packed it May 21/71 per the packing card.

Edited by FLYJACK

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(edited)
5 hours ago, Nicholas Broughton said:

The redacted name here is Lyle Hazen Cameron. You can clearly see the knowledge this guy had how did cooper know to go to Lyle who would of been your encyclopedia Britannia for jumping a 727 at that time. If you were cooper and were looking to do research on jumping out of jets which is what the Elsinore ghost asked Lyle… he’s the guy you’d want to talk to. It wasn’t the internet age you had to talk to people and that’s what cooper was doing in Elsinore august of 71 talking to LC and only LC based on my research.

Lyle Hazen Cameron was an FBI informant and was caught taking Government property,, was arrested pled guilty but due to some intervention changed it to not guilty and charges dismissed.

https://documents.theblackvault.com/documents/fbifiles/historical/lylecameron-fbi1.pdf

When the Elsinore story included the Raleigh Cigarette Coupon's to get a para-commander.. and PNW jump centers it became unbelievable. I think it was made up.. seems contrived and an embellishment.

I think he fabricated the story for some reason..

I could not find a para commander in the Coupon book.

999094149_ScreenShot2022-07-21at7_47_46PM.png.1b72b797c585d4907902e2254300b782.png

 

26625653_ScreenShot2022-07-21at8_14_39PM.png.afa5f46cd2c1d619f517bb0321e73f7a.png

 

1348327151_ScreenShot2022-07-21at8_13_57PM.png.c32aa559a10ca8a69575d9f2d2923e83.png

 

Edited by FLYJACK

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Interesting that this Gene Bland has both the front reserves as training dummies, and one intact and the other canopy both left on the plane. As for...

6 hours ago, Nicholas Broughton said:

Gene said he could of attached the butterfly snaps to the leg rings on the v rings on the leg hardware. Maybe @dudeman17 can weigh in on this?

...(attaching the reserve container to the leg strap attachments) that is entirely possible. These days most leg straps just have thread through friction adapters which would not allow that, but in those days I think most rigs, especially pilot rigs, had B-12 snaps on the leg straps that have the 'V' ring mentioned. Those V-rings aren't that big, I questioned whether two clips would fit on one, but I happen to have an old rig with B-12's on it in my closet, so I pulled it out and indeed you can fit two clips on one. That would put the reserve container below your crotch, across your thighs, but if you had the money bag tied to your chest that might just be the best fit. Hmmm...

Good to see you on here, Nick, but it wracks me with guilt. As much grief as I gave 'the other guy' about it, I got otherwise occupied and that other task got left undone. I'll have to get on that...

As for the Lyle Camerons, I think you said you talked with Jr.? Super nice guy.

-------

1 hour ago, FLYJACK said:

When the Elsinore story included the Raleigh Cigarette Coupon's to get a para-commander..  it became unbelievable. I think it was made up.. seems contrived and an embellishment.

I think he fabricated the story for some reason..

I could not find a para commander in the Coupon book.

I think this came up before, too. There's no way a P.C. would be in that coupon book, skydiving is just not mainstream enough for a company like that. But that is just the sort of thing a skydiver would make a joke about.

 

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(edited)
4 hours ago, dudeman17 said:

Interesting that this Gene Bland has both the front reserves as training dummies, and one intact and the other canopy both left on the plane. As for...

...(attaching the reserve container to the leg strap attachments) that is entirely possible. These days most leg straps just have thread through friction adapters which would not allow that, but in those days I think most rigs, especially pilot rigs, had B-12 snaps on the leg straps that have the 'V' ring mentioned. Those V-rings aren't that big, I questioned whether two clips would fit on one, but I happen to have an old rig with B-12's on it in my closet, so I pulled it out and indeed you can fit two clips on one. That would put the reserve container below your crotch, across your thighs, but if you had the money bag tied to your chest that might just be the best fit. Hmmm...

Good to see you on here, Nick, but it wracks me with guilt. As much grief as I gave 'the other guy' about it, I got otherwise occupied and that other task got left undone. I'll have to get on that...

As for the Lyle Camerons, I think you said you talked with Jr.? Super nice guy.

-------

I think this came up before, too. There's no way a P.C. would be in that coupon book, skydiving is just not mainstream enough for a company like that. But that is just the sort of thing a skydiver would make a joke about.

 

So, are you saying Cooper had rigging options not previously identified by anyone to date, based on a new discovery about Hayden's pilot rigs ?  Does that place Cooper in a new category in terms of experience-training ? Does anyone known how he actually rigged the chute, money container, etc ... isnt this a little like predicting the weather ? 

Edited by georger

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(edited)
10 hours ago, dudeman17 said:

Interesting that this Gene Bland has both the front reserves as training dummies, and one intact and the other canopy both left on the plane. As for...

...(attaching the reserve container to the leg strap attachments) that is entirely possible. These days most leg straps just have thread through friction adapters which would not allow that, but in those days I think most rigs, especially pilot rigs, had B-12 snaps on the leg straps that have the 'V' ring mentioned. Those V-rings aren't that big, I questioned whether two clips would fit on one, but I happen to have an old rig with B-12's on it in my closet, so I pulled it out and indeed you can fit two clips on one. That would put the reserve container below your crotch, across your thighs, but if you had the money bag tied to your chest that might just be the best fit. Hmmm...

Good to see you on here, Nick, but it wracks me with guilt. As much grief as I gave 'the other guy' about it, I got otherwise occupied and that other task got left undone. I'll have to get on that...

As for the Lyle Camerons, I think you said you talked with Jr.? Super nice guy.

-------

I think this came up before, too. There's no way a P.C. would be in that coupon book, skydiving is just not mainstream enough for a company like that. But that is just the sort of thing a skydiver would make a joke about.

 

Gene probably misremembered the front chutes..

We were told that an experienced jumper could attach a front without D-Rings..

Cooper tied the money to his waist.

IMO, most likely Cooper tossed the dummy front because it had no seal and was soft, appearing to be tampered with. Plus, no pieces were left in the plane.

 

 

I still think Cameron's story is BS or greatly embellished.. he touches on the key Cooper points in the FBI description and media with zero corroboration.

Cameron was a publisher, it would be great publicity..

The FBI checked out all the registrants from the time period outlined and nothing.

 

Cameron Dec 1 and Dec 3 interviews..

Claimed spoke to man July/August 71

Saw Raleigh cigarette coupons in his possession

Asked about PNW jump zones near Columbia River

Jumping from jet

Questions about the stairwell opening inward or rear stairwell raised or lowered

Air speed and flaps

Older guy

 

Then on Dec 14 '71 Cameron walks it back..

He claims he can narrow it down to late August.

He claims there was an article in Look magazine that showed a parachutist jumping from a jet and maybe the guy got the idea from that.. but he still thinks the guy looks like the artist sketch.. 

First, that was sketch A, the bad one.. garbage. 

Second, this is a classic walk back, he was BS'ing and had to cover himself.. after he had the FBI chasing his BS lead.

Finally, it was obvious BS or greatly embellished.. some guy probably asked about jumping from a jet and Cameron added the stuff he thought matched Cooper. The FBI took him seriously and he had to walk it back. A classic CYA move..

 

1457328919_ScreenShot2022-07-22at7_17_46AM.png.0a42ecafe6e3af3abb6bf843cac908f7.png

 

Edited by FLYJACK

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(edited)

Ulis is correct,, Cooper ordered a Bourbon and Seven Up.. I think the media incorrectly used "soda"..

bourbonsevenup.jpeg.89e99cf44f6e1c0dfdea37dd14d5b94c.jpeg.f0d57e57171072f466662e7fadace250.jpeg

This is a Northwest menu from a few years earlier but is probably accurate to the hijacking.

You have six different Bourbon's and also Coke, 7 UP and Ginger Ale.. no "Soda" listed.

In the early 70's Bourbon was the #2 hard liquor in the US.. not rare or unique.

The takeaway is that Cooper may have just picked something from the menu, not that it was necessarily his preferred drink..

"no tipping please"

B668CEA5-FA7B-4557-A357-BB1DE48259A7@vw.shawcable_net.jpeg.ad6f825ad310fc10d93c4b056239c5a6.jpeg

 

Edited by FLYJACK

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I found a report that in 1977 material was dredged from the Willamette right under the 305 flightpath where it crossed the Willamette (mile 10), barged and dumped in the East side of the Columbia R. about 3 miles upstream of TBAR...

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1 hour ago, FLYJACK said:

I found a report that in 1977 material was dredged from the Willamette right under the 305 flightpath where it crossed the Willamette (mile 10), barged and dumped in the East side of the Columbia R. about 3 miles upstream of TBAR...

Thats interesting. There is more - later.

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(edited)
3 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

I found a report that in 1977 material was dredged from the Willamette right under the 305 flightpath where it crossed the Willamette (mile 10), barged and dumped in the East side of the Columbia R. about 3 miles upstream of TBAR...

Are there photos to confirm this?    DS says he talked to a 'dredge guy' in 79 who reported materials were pumped 'on the area of the Ingram find'  during the process of pumping and moving the tube to the northern spoil pile seen in the official  79 photo. This puts dredging material directly on or in the area of the Ingram find. DS told me this explained the fragment field being found. DS says he thought the Ingram find and the deep fragment 'field' found had all been set there prior to the pumping at the large dump seen at the north location, as the tube was moved.

DS says the Ulis claim that only a few fragments were found is untrue, and his idea that fragments were transported on the bottoms of shoes by workers digging is pure fantasy untrue. Dorwin says he told Bruce Smith there were 'thousands' of "chopped" money fragments left in the sand, occupying a roughly fan shaped area down to 20 ft above the water line in the sand from 8" to 2-3 feet deep and that it was his opinion the Ingram find and the fragment field were connected to a single event of dredge pumping,  'as the tube was moved from the general area of the Ingram find south to the large spoil pile seen in the 1979 photo.  

All of this is the reason DS supports the dredging theory.   He says it was impossible to collected all of the chopped pieces of money found in the sand.

1974 Tena Bar 09-06-1974 bulging marked.JPG

Edited by georger
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13 hours ago, georger said:

So, are you saying Cooper had rigging options not previously identified by anyone to date, based on a new discovery about Hayden's pilot rigs ?

 

I'm not claiming anything. Apparently Gene Bland identified this the day after the hijacking. Not sure when his statements were made available to the public. A quick look at the pictures of Hayden's returned rig shows that it does have such snaps on the leg straps. I'm just confirming the possibility.

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(edited)
5 hours ago, dudeman17 said:

 

I'm not claiming anything. Apparently Gene Bland identified this the day after the hijacking. Not sure when his statements were made available to the public. A quick look at the pictures of Hayden's returned rig shows that it does have such snaps on the leg straps. I'm just confirming the possibility.

Looks like you have identified a rigging option not previously identified by anyone else to date, including 377 and Bruce Smith. People have been focused on D rings or lack of them in the past. It would be interesting to know if Cooper made use this option, or even saw it, but how will we ever know?   ........ damned good work Dudeman!    

BTW your question about moving air and thermometers has an easy answer. Im sure you know the answer! Funny .... add water and evaporation to the problem.      I love basic science.. thanks for the entertainment !! :D

Edited by georger

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3 hours ago, georger said:

Looks like you have identified a rigging option not previously identified by anyone else to date, including 377 and Bruce Smith. People have been focused on D rings or lack of them in the past. It would be interesting to know if Cooper made use this option, or even saw it, but how will we ever know?   ........ damned good work Dudeman!    

Thanks, but no, not my credit. See NickyB's post #57354 above. He cites a Gene Bland as having that idea the day after the hijacking. I just confirmed that such was possible.

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On 7/22/2022 at 4:23 PM, georger said:

Are there photos to confirm this?    DS says he talked to a 'dredge guy' in 79 who reported materials were pumped 'on the area of the Ingram find'  during the process of pumping and moving the tube to the northern spoil pile seen in the official  79 photo. This puts dredging material directly on or in the area of the Ingram find. DS told me this explained the fragment field being found. DS says he thought the Ingram find and the deep fragment 'field' found had all been set there prior to the pumping at the large dump seen at the north location, as the tube was moved.

DS says the Ulis claim that only a few fragments were found is untrue, and his idea that fragments were transported on the bottoms of shoes by workers digging is pure fantasy untrue. Dorwin says he told Bruce Smith there were 'thousands' of "chopped" money fragments left in the sand, occupying a roughly fan shaped area down to 20 ft above the water line in the sand from 8" to 2-3 feet deep and that it was his opinion the Ingram find and the fragment field were connected to a single event of dredge pumping,  'as the tube was moved from the general area of the Ingram find south to the large spoil pile seen in the 1979 photo.  

All of this is the reason DS supports the dredging theory.   He says it was impossible to collected all of the chopped pieces of money found in the sand.

1974 Tena Bar 09-06-1974 bulging marked.JPG

Can you think of any other event or process that would result in that many fragments of money at TB? Doesn't it almost have to be from a dredge?

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(edited)
6 hours ago, ParrotheadVol said:

Can you think of any other event or process that would result in that many fragments of money at TB? Doesn't it almost have to be from a dredge?

That has been Schreuder's and other agents position all along. I wonder how Geof Gray missed this - he apparently never talked to the agents who were there ? DS told Bruce there were 'thousands' of fragments. Bruce minimized it saying how many ever frags there were they were all confined to the area around the Ingram find and on the surface. TK has always been reluctant to confirm there were any actual fragments of any important nature? Ulis says the few frags there were were brought on the soles of people's shoes to holes 3ft deep! ......................  the irony of all of this for me is: dredging has always been the most elegant solution and Dorwin has always favored the theory based on what he and others found and saw with their own two eyes. ("we left thousands of chopped up fragments of money in the sand there ... etc etc etc.)  ! Its simple. Direct 1:1 causation. I have said for decades, the real problem is: how in blazes did the money bag get in the bottom spoils to begin with to be dredged up accidentally later.  

All of that said, I dont expect anyone will change their positions on this. I expect the debate to plod along forever. And, there are a few people who still are convinced there is more to be found at Tina Bar - a few still search there from time to time. What I miss is that Palmer didnt acknowledge and deal with the issue of fragments better. Had he done that the issue could have been settled clear back in 1980 and we might not be having these discussions at all. I firmly believe that and so do the agents I speak with. It is what it is, in any event.   

How many agents worked at the dig? 12-16 or more? Dorwin was just the one we cite today. There were others who had opinions based on what they saw firsthand. Nobody ever polled these men and women, to get a consensus after the fact. 

Statesman_Journal_Wed__Feb_13__1980_ (lrg c1.JPG

Edited by georger

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(edited)
10 hours ago, ParrotheadVol said:

Can you think of any other event or process that would result in that many fragments of money at TB? Doesn't it almost have to be from a dredge?

Not necessarily, lots of tiny fragments are probably from the erosion or missing bills..

Palmer was asked about the bills at 3 ft depth, he said no, they were probably moved from the excavation process. It is easy to see how many tiny frags could be left behind and moved during excavation.

There might be a thousands frags here.. could be from 1 or 2 bills.. but the volume isn't greater than the 3 packets. 

I don't see it as evidence of a deposit by a dredge. 

 

g12fragments.jpg.53a3225314f4fc1dfbf3b8715a5cf86e.jpg

 

Some bigger..

tbarfrag2.jpeg.7dd2bcb97f2bc88978642fbcf4ff146e.jpeg

Edited by FLYJACK
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