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DB Cooper

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3 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

It is there, but I got it from part 65 p. 121-122

Soderlinds record of the times was recently posted and commented on here or Shutter's site.  Is Part 65 the source for Soderlinds comments that were previously posted? 

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20 minutes ago, Robert99 said:

Soderlinds record of the times was recently posted and commented on here or Shutter's site.  Is Part 65 the source for Soderlinds comments that were previously posted? 

My post here is part 65,, no idea what is on Shutter's site about Soderlind.

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(edited)

Why would Carr be expected to know anything about this.. Carr and the FBI is still looking for the cigarette butts that the FBI destroyed within weeks of the hijacking.

Ask Rataczak to clarify the shrimp boat statement he made in interviews. Either it is true or you have to believe he lied and made it all up.. good luck.

Soderlind kept handwritten notes of his comms with 305 as I posted already,,,  in 1978 the FBI wanted his originals..

1941562480_ScreenShot2022-08-06at7_02_13PM.png.cad57f490ace8dea0c2e82afa0962290.png

BBC show Witness 2015 interview with Bill Rataczak...

"and I could feel the stairs coming down we then felt a big bump in our ear" (that is inconvenient)

"So, when he jumped and left the airplane at that very moment I got on the radio to air traffic control and I said" (ATC not Soderlind)

"QUOTE, I think our friend has just taken leave of us, mark it on your shrimp boats" (radar screen)

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-db-cooper-mystery/id1345477018?i=1000401601791

Edited by FLYJACK

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3 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

My post here is part 65,, no idea what is on Shutter's site about Soderlind.

FlyJack, I have just posted to Shutters's site a recommendation that everyone, especially Chaucer, read your post #57481 above.  That post discusses Sunderlind's notes which were taken during the hijacking.

Sunderlind says that Cooper jumped no later than 8:12 PM PST and well north of the Portland area. That rules out theories to the contrary that have been advanced by some people.

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4 hours ago, Robert99 said:

FlyJack, I have just posted to Shutters's site a recommendation that everyone, especially Chaucer, read your post #57481 above.  That post discusses Sunderlind's notes which were taken during the hijacking.

Sunderlind says that Cooper jumped no later than 8:12 PM PST and well north of the Portland area. That rules out theories to the contrary that have been advanced by some people.

Can you at least FINALLY -   GET THE NAME STRAIGHT !!

His name is:  NWO flight operations boss Paul Soderlind.  Not Sunder lind.

SODERLIND.

Here is the name used in a sentence.. Please make note of it.

Paul Soderlind, who at the time was Northwest Airline's director of flight operations-technical, flew the same plane in a re-enactment after it was returned to Portland. The radio conversation with the crew during Cooper's flight had been interrupted by the pressure bump when he jumped, and by lowering the aft ramp _ and another pressure bump as the ramp slammed closed _ so the plane's position at the time of the jump could be quite accurately calculated, Soderlind said.

SODERLIND.                                 Do you have it now? 

Edited by georger

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(edited)

Chaucer doesn't just walk it back he runs it back..

To move the LZ south you have to discredit both Soderlind and Rataczak..

From Minneapolis Soderlind was listening to the radio, communicated with 305 and took time marked notes,, he used his first hand experience and notes to create an LZ,,  the first one was much larger because they didn't know exactly where the plane was at a given time. The LZ was revised as flight data was acquired.

This was from Soderlind.

1216944866_ScreenShot2022-08-06at10_15_43PM.png.46199588d41017f803e7f86f99687348.png

1752901235_ScreenShot2022-08-07at7_35_53AM.png.c2999b62bf7043af076d97354cb9a1df.png

293608016_ScreenShot2022-08-07at7_34_10AM.png.be3700e887d592d9ab4a4d2f2186f6a5.png

and in 1978 the FBI was looking for Soderlind's original notes..

154424140_ScreenShot2022-08-06at7_02_13PM.png.e6d2cff6e7485ab47ad47d54de17a387.png

 

1648234520_ScreenShot2022-08-04at6_09_27PM.png.f2a75ed2727a943456eee26a65c81ff6.png

 

Rataczak claimed he called Soderlind before the suburbs of Portland. This is not where Rataczak thought Cooper jumped but marks the latest time/location he called Soderlind.. 

Between 8:05, the last comm with Cooper and his call to Soderlind (10 min later, 8:15 is about Battleground)..

Rataczak thought Cooper jumped near the Lewis River.

cooperjump.jpeg.4214210c7ca4559af608ed5207ae8150.jpeg.b2d82c7baec2100ba251a860ef4920c7.jpeg

Edited by FLYJACK

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(edited)

This is interesting,,

Bill Rollins posted a video about his suspect but he also tracked down a woman who saw a man walking West in black slacks and white dress-type shirt and he identified Lewis River Road and  the cross street as Fredrickson Road. The man was approx. 6 ft, medium build, dark short hair and 30-40 yrs.. That street location had been redacted in the FBI file.. This location is right under the flightpath right at the 8:10 time. It is the northern end of Cooper's LZ just N of the Lewis River.

The woman seems very credible... the description and location match Cooper..

 

2141700422_ScreenShot2022-08-07at9_35_15AM.png.d2e9c0c4a0c5abb086899d3e04f635ad.png

 

Bill Rollins video..

 

Edited by FLYJACK
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On 8/6/2022 at 9:30 AM, JAGdb said:

It seems like no matter what theory is explored for the money winding up on Tena Bar, a dead end is reached.

If the money was deposited on the beach from dredging, then how on earth did the money wind up in the Colombia given the official flight path ?  
      Wash Down Theory: While the Washougal wash down theory was used as an explanation, after lots of scrutiny and vetting, most don't see how this could have been possible give the distances involved.  Dead End reached.
    

     Alternate Flight Path:  Again, at this point, good theory to explore, but nothing concrete at the moment to prove. Dead End reached.
    

     Human Intervention: Somebody through the money in the river.    Again, make up your favorite scenario here, Cooper himself,       someone who found the money and decided to get rid of it, Tina took money from Cooper on the plane and put it there after feeling guilty or   scared.  Coming up with these scenarios is fine and even entertaining, but they can't be proven and one individual's imagination is as good as another's I suppose.  Dead End reached. 

 

If the money was not deposited by the dredge:
    

      Flooding deposited it there: For this to be possible, the money had to be somewhere in the vicinity for it to be within the flood plain so to speak.  This kind of goes back to the same issue above, how did the money get to this area for it to be within the flood waters reach      based on where we believe the flight path was? Dead End reached.
    

      Human Intervention: See above.  Dead End reached.

I may be missing some other possibilities, but still they run into a dead end.  The equation can't be solved with the given data, too many missing variables.  We need another piece of data/fact.  

The diatom discovery was a positive new piece of data, but in some sense introduced even more questions.  And it is only based on the testing of 377s one bill.  It would be great if TK could examine another bill in the same way and see if produces the same diatom profile or results.  These bills were all together, so one would think the results would be the same, but who knows?  Maybe bills in the middle would yield different results than bills closer to the end ?  The key diatom take away is spring/summer diatoms were found and therefore the bill was only exposed to the river water during that time frame and this implies that the money did not hit the water in November of 1971....but it does not say which spring/summer, was it 1972, 73,74, 75,76,77,78,79?  Or every year from 72 through 79 ? Meanwhile, Palmer stated that he thought the money was there for roughly a year.  In other words, when did the money arrive and how did it get into the condition that it was in when found?

I know everything I am saying has been said and thought of before, just framing this for my own mind.  To me, trying to focus on how long it takes and under what conditions a bundle of money like this would solidify and harden could potentially give us some idea of how long it was there which then may be able to rule some scenarios in or out.  Another area to explore more, TK indicated that there were some signs of potential bacteriaI colonies at work, could more be done on this?  Which bacteria ?  Where does this species live ? I thought that TK or other folks were conducting more testing in this area, (putting test money outside in varying conditions), to see if they could simulate or reproduce the conditions of the bundles.  If so, maybe there will be some more data to look at soon.  Sorry for the long ramble, cheers !

Damn. You just gave me a bad headache with this!

I think for human intervention to be considered, we need to start with the one human that we knew had the money, and that is Cooper himself. Maybe he hid the money somewhere close to the Columbia with the intention of retrieving it later? Perhaps he tossed the money in the Columbia knowing that the serial numbers were being checked and he though he wouldn't be able to spend it. Maybe something spooked him and he decided to toss the money. Maybe seeing McCoy get busted red handed with his ransom in his home made him decide to toss it in the spring of 72? So may possibilities. Either of these may not be what happened, but no need to move the flight path or landing zone with these scenarios.

I'm a pessimist about pretty much everything. Glass half empty. But I don't think we will ever know how that money wound up in the Columbia and onto Tena Bar. Even if we find out who Cooper is.

Edited by ParrotheadVol
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2 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

This is interesting,,

Bill Rollins posted a video about his suspect but he also tracked down a woman who saw a man walking West in black slacks and white dress-type shirt and he identified Lewis River Road and  the cross street as Fredrickson Road. The man was approx. 6 ft, medium build, dark short hair and 30-40 yrs.. That street location had been redacted in the FBI file.. This location is right under the flightpath right at the 8:10 time. It is the northern end of Cooper's LZ just N of the Lewis River.

The woman seems very credible... the description and location match Cooper..

 

2141700422_ScreenShot2022-08-07at9_35_15AM.png.d2e9c0c4a0c5abb086899d3e04f635ad.png

 

Bill Rollins video..

 

This has always been an interesting report. Did any followup occur?  More 302s about it? Did the guy spotted have a bag or a brief case?

Any real evidence dredging spoils at the Lewis mouth were transported to Tena Bar? If that can be proved then we may have the source of the Ingram money and fragments ?  

People may be missing something important about the diatoms and money. Simply, what condition were the bills in when exposed to diatoms? Were they new bills with full borders or already deteriorated bills like that turned in by the Ingrams? What does the distribution Tom found suggest ? If the bills were already deteriorated when exposed to diatoms, that sets a time limit on when diatoms and money came into contact. 

If it could be proved that Lewis River sediments were transported to Tena Bar the Lewis could be the source of the Cooper money. That could open a whole new chapter in the case. 

Its also worth noting again that nobody saw money at Tena Bar beach prior to the Ingram discovery, and neither did the Ingrams. It took the act of kids digging to expose money! The money was buried under sand. More time and erosion might have exposed it to view of fishermen. But that had not happened yet until the Ingram children happened to be probing and digging ...   and the Lewis River has always been a favorite target with respect to the flight path and the timing of Cooper's jump window...    the Lewis area could be key to everything.

Any chance Tom can get some of the fragments to test for diatoms ??????????????

Edited by georger
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1 hour ago, georger said:

This has always been an interesting report. Did any followup occur?  More 302s about it? Did the guy spotted have a bag or a brief case?

That reminds me of this very similar report... I wonder if the two are related? Maybe even a part of the same incident from the perspective of another person in the car?

 

dbcooper.png

Edited by Coopericane
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7 minutes ago, Coopericane said:

Could this be a part of the same incident? Thus meaning there were two witnesses?

 

dbcooper.png

 

It is a different witness but they both describe a similar incident.

Would be nice to have the location of the second incident.

715785714_ScreenShot2022-08-07at2_14_18PM.png.d65976f8541a5308d26096eac52439db.png

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(edited)

Let me throw this out just to have it on the table ... Galen Cook proposed years ago that the Ingram money could have migrated up from the mouth of the Lewis to TBar via "reverse tides". I talked to Galen's science team guy who then backed off Galen's claim. The issue died there. But the whole thing started when Galen was told by somebody (Curtis Eng?)  about a report like the one you have just found.          H reported being told the night of the hijacking that Cooper had landed near Woodland, in the Lewis River area. He supposedly was in a helo and they flew up to that area to look but the weather closed everything down .... if dredging materials were indeed taken from the area around the mouth of the Lewis up to Tena Bar .... if that can be documented .... that would be new. 

Edited by georger

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15 hours ago, georger said:

Let me throw this out just to have it on the table ... Galen Cook proposed years ago that the Ingram money could have migrated up from the mouth of the Lewis to TBar via "reverse tides". I talked to Galen's science team guy who then backed off Galen's claim. The issue died there. But the whole thing started when Galen was told by somebody (Curtis Eng?)  about a report like the one you have just found.          H reported being told the night of the hijacking that Cooper had landed near Woodland, in the Lewis River area. He supposedly was in a helo and they flew up to that area to look but the weather closed everything down .... if dredging materials were indeed taken from the area around the mouth of the Lewis up to Tena Bar .... if that can be documented .... that would be new. 

Though reversals can go beyond TBAR.. I looked at the reverse flow and rejected it for two reasons..

The movement is limited to maybe 3 miles in a tidal cycle.

But, only the top layer is reversed by tides and winds, the lower layer continued to flow downstream.. since the money does not float (for very long) it would not be moved in the top layer.

There were clamshell dredging operations at the mouth of the Lewis and mouth of the Columbia that subsequently moved material upstream but I couldn't find any specifics.. One big project  was the Sauvie Island shore remediation across from and upstream of TBAR.. I can't confirm where that material came from.. and then you need to account for the diatoms.

There is just no way figure out the TBAR money beyond theories  unless somebody comes forward and admits something like they found some money in the woods and later threw it in the River because it couldn't be used..

 

Edited by FLYJACK
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32 minutes ago, CooperNWO305 said:

Let's say these sightings were of Cooper.  Would it indicate he jumped further north, or was blown further north, or that he decided to walk north?

He would have jumped at 8:10.. landing just N of the Lewis River.. within the LZ timeframe.

Sodlerind has 8:10, the FDR mark is 8:09, others are 8:11 to 8:13 but none are synchronized and some are delayed reporting. 8:09 - 8:15 is the range.. about the Lewis River to Battleground.

It would be at the northern end of the LZ.. exactly where Rataczak thinks Cooper jumped.

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2 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

He would have jumped at 8:10.. landing just N of the Lewis River.. within the LZ timeframe.

Sodlerind has 8:10, the FDR mark is 8:09, others are 8:11 to 8:13 but none are synchronized and some are delayed reporting. 8:09 - 8:15 is the range.. about the Lewis River to Battleground.

It would be at the northern end of the LZ.. exactly where Rataczak thinks Cooper jumped.

Cooper was wearing a raincoat when last observed putting on the parachutes.  The man walking along the road was not wearing one despite the rain.  The witness even described his shirt and pants.  Ergo, the man was not Cooper.  

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5 hours ago, Robert99 said:

Cooper was wearing a raincoat when last observed putting on the parachutes.  The man walking along the road was not wearing one despite the rain.  The witness even described his shirt and pants.  Ergo, the man was not Cooper.  

Cooper was also last seen wearing a parachute,, the man seen was not wearing a parachute,, does that mean he wasn't Cooper.

But, was he wearing a raincoat when he jumped, was the chute put over the raincoat.. I have never seen any evidence for this one way or the other.

I don't know if the man seen was Cooper but not wearing a raincoat doesn't disqualify him.. Obviously, he could have removed the raincoat for some reason if he jumped wearing one. Maybe he was carrying it, the witness couldn't recall if the man was carrying anything.

Edited by FLYJACK

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(edited)

Chaucer is still confused but he refuses to participate here.. so he will remain so. He is still trying to bend the spoon, there is no spoon..

"they had not yet reached Portland proper, but were definitely in the suburbs or immediate vicinity thereof."

Ratazcak was not referring to where he thought Cooper jumped, he thought Cooper jumped near the Lewis River, he was giving a time frame parameter which ends with his call to Solerlind..

Between the last comm at 8:05 and his call to Solerlind shortly after they thought Cooper jumped. 8:05 plus 10 minutes = 10:15 which is about Battleground and the suburbs of Portland.. plus you can probably see the lights from there.

The "suburbs of Portland" refers to the call to Soderlind after Cooper had jumped and which he believes had the time recorded.


cooperjump.jpeg.4214210c7ca4559af608ed5207ae8150.jpeg.b2d82c7baec2100ba251a860ef4920c7.jpeg.8355a26b7fe3f058c630f81bad9a7e54.jpeg

Edited by FLYJACK

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(edited)

Oscillations were visual on the pressure gauge...

The "bump" was felt... described as an extreme oscillation on the gauge.

The bump is also an extreme gauge oscillation.. 

They are are simultaneous events. 

Rataczak, "I could feel the stairs coming down, we then felt a big bump in our ear..  So, when he jumped and left the airplane at that very moment I got on the radio to Air Traffic Control and I said quote I think our friend has just taken leave of us, mark it on your shrimp boats, that's what they call the radar screen"

Edited by FLYJACK
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On 8/7/2022 at 2:21 PM, FLYJACK said:

 

It is a different witness but they both describe a similar incident.

Would be nice to have the location of the second incident.

715785714_ScreenShot2022-08-07at2_14_18PM.png.d65976f8541a5308d26096eac52439db.png

Found out from Rollins interview that this is the same incident,, one report is from the witness's father..

Rollin's talked to the witness and claims the man was dressed in all black..  (white shirt) FWW

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8 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

Chaucer is still confused but he refuses to participate here.. so he will remain so. He is still trying to bend the spoon, there is no spoon..

"they had not yet reached Portland proper, but were definitely in the suburbs or immediate vicinity thereof."

Ratazcak was not referring to where he thought Cooper jumped, he thought Cooper jumped near the Lewis River, he was giving a time frame parameter which ends with his call to Solerlind..

Between the last comm at 8:05 and his call to Solerlind shortly after they thought Cooper jumped. 8:05 plus 10 minutes = 10:15 which is about Battleground and the suburbs of Portland.. plus you can probably see the lights from there.

The "suburbs of Portland" refers to the call to Soderlind after Cooper had jumped and which he believes had the time recorded.


cooperjump.jpeg.4214210c7ca4559af608ed5207ae8150.jpeg.b2d82c7baec2100ba251a860ef4920c7.jpeg.8355a26b7fe3f058c630f81bad9a7e54.jpeg

Chaucer says: I propose that the 727 was experiencing what's known as a phugoid.

Hmmmmmm. Doubtful. Wasnt a tonsillectomy or a hysterectomy or mass psychosis either.  Good try. ^.^

Edited by georger

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12 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

Cooper was also last seen wearing a parachute,, the man seen was not wearing a parachute,, does that mean he wasn't Cooper.

But, was he wearing a raincoat when he jumped, was the chute put over the raincoat.. I have never seen any evidence for this one way or the other.

I don't know if the man seen was Cooper but not wearing a raincoat doesn't disqualify him.. Obviously, he could have removed the raincoat for some reason if he jumped wearing one. Maybe he was carrying it, the witness couldn't recall if the man was carrying anything.

FlyJack, come on.  You can do better than this.  Of course Cooper was putting the parachute over the raincoat.  Sane people normally wear their raincoat when walking in the rain.  And I doubt very much that Cooper would lose his raincoat in the jump.

Was the man walking in the rain wearing shoes?  Based on the previous descriptions of Cooper's foot wear, he would probably be bare foot when he landed.

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15 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

He would have jumped at 8:10.. landing just N of the Lewis River.. within the LZ timeframe.

Sodlerind has 8:10, the FDR mark is 8:09, others are 8:11 to 8:13 but none are synchronized and some are delayed reporting. 8:09 - 8:15 is the range.. about the Lewis River to Battleground.

It would be at the northern end of the LZ.. exactly where Rataczak thinks Cooper jumped.

FlyJack, where did the FDR mark of 8:09 come from?

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2 hours ago, georger said:

Chaucer says: I propose that the 727 was experiencing what's known as a phugoid.

Hmmmmmm. Doubtful. Wasnt a tonsillectomy or a hysterectomy or mass psychosis either.  Good try. ^.^

It definitely was not a phugoid.

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