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DB Cooper

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29 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

You have Tina, the bank guy in the FBI files, Himmelsbach and Tosaw corroborating bank bands..  could they all be wrong, it is possible but we need some solid evidence to challenge it.

But, if they were paper bands on the packets, bundled into groups of packets with rubber bands how does that change the TBAR scenario?

Paper bands would deteriorate in about 3 months in nature,, not long enough to reach spring '72.

If the paper bands were wet, how long would the glue hold?

 

I think there is value in knowing that the three one hundred bill packets were bundled together.  It would kind of eliminate the question as to what are the odds that 3 separate packets would wind up on top of each other without human intervention?

I don't think it makes the dredge theory more of an option as I would still have a hard time believing that the rubber band would hold against the violent forces of the dredge.  But again, too many variables to consider to draw any conclusion on this.

I would think that if someone had the chance to ask Tina,-- Did you see paper bands on the money? That even today, she should be able to answer that.

How come Allison Hancock never seems to be included in this question, wasn't she there when Cooper offered some of the ransom money ?  Didn't Cooper actually attempt to hand a packet to them (Flo/Tina/Allison)?  I guess Allison is even more elusive or tight lipped when it comes to answering Cooper questions.

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8 minutes ago, JAGdb said:

I think there is value in knowing that the three one hundred bill packets were bundled together.  It would kind of eliminate the question as to what are the odds that 3 separate packets would wind up on top of each other without human intervention?

I don't think it makes the dredge theory more of an option as I would still have a hard time believing that the rubber band would hold against the violent forces of the dredge.  But again, too many variables to consider to draw any conclusion on this.

I would think that if someone had the chance to ask Tina,-- Did you see paper bands on the money? That even today, she should be able to answer that.

How come Allison Hancock never seems to be included in this question, wasn't she there when Cooper offered some of the ransom money ?  Didn't Cooper actually attempt to hand a packet to them (Flo/Tina/Allison)?  I guess Allison is even more elusive or tight lipped when it comes to answering Cooper questions.

I have long argued that because the money went to Cooper rubber banded in bundles of several packets that the money most likely landed on TBAR as one rubber banded bundle of several packets.

Tina asked for money and Cooper handed it to her, she took it and then returned it.. she claims.

she indicated "bank-type bands around each package"

tinabanktypebands.jpeg.ecd189d386941561cca839409f6c3e48.jpeg

It was reported but unconfirmed that Cooper also offered Flo and Alice ransom money as they left the plane but no description of it..

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2 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

I have long argued that because the money went to Cooper rubber banded in bundles of several packets that the money most likely landed on TBAR as one rubber banded bundle of several packets.

Tina asked for money and Cooper handed it to her, she took it and then returned it.. she claims.

she indicated "bank-type bands around each package"

tinabanktypebands.jpeg.ecd189d386941561cca839409f6c3e48.jpeg

It was reported but unconfirmed that Cooper also offered Flo and Alice ransom money as they left the plane but no description of it..

I don't know of anyone on this case who has done more research on the bills than Flyjack.  I have not kept track of every entry, but his process is sound.  If someone is interested in getting background on the bills, I'd recommend reading his entries here on the DZ.

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(edited)
4 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

You have Tina, the bank guy in the FBI files, Himmelsbach and Tosaw corroborating bank bands..  could they all be wrong, it is possible but we need some solid evidence to challenge it.

But, if they were paper bands on the packets, bundled into groups of packets with rubber bands how does that change the TBAR scenario?

Paper bands would deteriorate in about 3 months in nature,, not long enough to reach spring '72.

If the paper bands were wet, how long would the glue hold?

 

Tom did not test paper bank straps ... it wasnt in the vita. I caution about making blanket statements. I am going to use the word straps vs bands. Maybe!

Currency money straps colors and capacities conform to Federal Reserve Bank standards for currency straps. Dimensions: 1.25 x 7.875.  Where they overlap provides double protection. They are self sticking. They stiffen and compress a package of money in a money bag ... they change the geometry and mass of a load. When used, a bag of money could become a missile...

I can already hear the gears in people's brains turning ... any paper money straps in the Cooper comic ?  

Can anyone see any band shadows on any of the bills? I question that these bands automatically dissolve in 6 mos or any other magical time period, convenient to a particular narrative ... go look on the Treasury Department's Forensic Money website. 

whole bill.JPG

Edited by georger

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1 hour ago, georger said:

Here we go again! Bank currency straps designed to last only 6 months defeats the purpose of having them, in the first place. Is there a paper chemist here who can shed light on this ? Give us some facts for a change! 

Here we go again, Georger playing histrionics,, nobody said they are designed to last 6 months.

Paper bank bands are paper not the same material as currency,, paper disintegrates within 3 months outside and wet.. if they were stored in a dry environment like a bank they would last a long time.. probably longer than stretched rubber bands.

I am not sure about the glue... would it release quickly when wet?

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Hi everyone .. I love this thread. In addition I'd like to give you a little background on my experience and why I think I can help solve this case.

1) I was on the ground in Longview Washington when Cooper jumped. I was 17 years old.. A senior at R A Long High School. My family were avid hunters and it was Extended Buck season. Thousands of hunters were literally hunting for the Money and the Man.(A good song by the way) Many were my friends.

2) I have jumped twice in the advertised jump area at less than 175 knots and at 10,000 feet. I'm an inexperienced jumper but these were solo jumps made a few years after the Cooper jump. The first jump was at about the time of day Cooper WANTED to jump. The second was mid day. Both times I believe I used a chute very similar to his. The weather conditions were good. (They wouldn't let us jump in a storm)

3) I am extremely qualified to instigate or spot Deception. I have been consulted by Law Enforcement personnel about how to spot lies or misdirection. (No ... My last name is Koenig but my first name is not Joe.. Just coincedence) David Copperfield  has purchased the rights to one of my Mental Illusions and he performs it twice a night in Vegas. I've studied Deception for over 20 years. I hold both the Houdini Award and the Merlin Award... Trickery is my business.

4) My wife has worked in a bank for over 20 years. She knows the ins and outs of money and how it is handled in banks. The drummer in one of my bands lived on Suavie Island which I believe is near Tina Bar. My band played Portland Oregon often and it is possible I knew the cocaine dealers who claimed the money was planted. (Still trying sniff that one out) I am skeptical of every single word that the FBI has said in this case. I'm not calling them liars but I am demanding proof instead of just their word.

5) Virtually every kid in my neighborhood would have loved to believe that his father was D.B. Cooper. I felt the same way but my Dad was only 5 foot 5...I have. a similar mindset to Cooper. Sticking it to the man was a good thing back then. People were rioting because of the insane war. Four were killed in Ohio. Stewardesses looked like Euro Trash Movie stars and the world was a much different place back then.

6) I'm semi-retired now and I only have to perform a few times a month. So I have plenty of time to read all the new books, I was on Coast to Coast AM talking about Cooper a while back and I'll be doing it again. I see this as a good place to start .. There's much more but I don't want to burn your eyes out just yet.....

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29 minutes ago, Slim King said:

Hi everyone .. I love this thread. In addition I'd like to give you a little background on my experience and why I think I can help solve this case.

1) I was on the ground in Longview Washington when Cooper jumped. I was 17 years old.. A senior at R A Long High School. My family were avid hunters and it was Extended Buck season. Thousands of hunters were literally hunting for the Money and the Man.(A good song by the way) Many were my friends.

2) I have jumped twice in the advertised jump area at less than 175 knots and at 10,000 feet. I'm an inexperienced jumper but these were solo jumps made a few years after the Cooper jump. The first jump was at about the time of day Cooper WANTED to jump. The second was mid day. Both times I believe I used a chute very similar to his. The weather conditions were good. (They wouldn't let us jump in a storm)

3) I am extremely qualified to instigate or spot Deception. I have been consulted by Law Enforcement personnel about how to spot lies or misdirection. (No ... My last name is Koenig but my first name is not Joe.. Just coincedence) David Copperfield  has purchased the rights to one of my Mental Illusions and he performs it twice a night in Vegas. I've studied Deception for over 20 years. I hold both the Houdini Award and the Merlin Award... Trickery is my business.

4) My wife has worked in a bank for over 20 years. She knows the ins and outs of money and how it is handled in banks. The drummer in one of my bands lived on Suavie Island which I believe is near Tina Bar. My band played Portland Oregon often and it is possible I knew the cocaine dealers who claimed the money was planted. (Still trying sniff that one out) I am skeptical of every single word that the FBI has said in this case. I'm not calling them liars but I am demanding proof instead of just their word.

5) Virtually every kid in my neighborhood would have loved to believe that his father was D.B. Cooper. I felt the same way but my Dad was only 5 foot 5...I have. a similar mindset to Cooper. Sticking it to the man was a good thing back then. People were rioting because of the insane war. Four were killed in Ohio. Stewardesses looked like Euro Trash Movie stars and the world was a much different place back then.

6) I'm semi-retired now and I only have to perform a few times a month. So I have plenty of time to read all the new books, I was on Coast to Coast AM talking about Cooper a while back and I'll be doing it again. I see this as a good place to start .. There's much more but I don't want to burn your eyes out just yet.....

Welcome to DZ and keep posting.

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Thanks Robert!!!  I forgot to mention that I live in Florida now and I met "Charlie Brown" Carl Lauren ... We really hit it off quite well before he passed and I have both of the books he wrote but never published about barnstorming. There is no doubt in my mind that Cooper was a Barnstormer Deluxe!!!! (Sounds like a good movie title doesn't it?)

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2 hours ago, Slim King said:

Hi everyone .. I love this thread. In addition I'd like to give you a little background on my experience and why I think I can help solve this case.

1) I was on the ground in Longview Washington when Cooper jumped. I was 17 years old.. A senior at R A Long High School. My family were avid hunters and it was Extended Buck season. Thousands of hunters were literally hunting for the Money and the Man.(A good song by the way) Many were my friends.

2) I have jumped twice in the advertised jump area at less than 175 knots and at 10,000 feet. I'm an inexperienced jumper but these were solo jumps made a few years after the Cooper jump. The first jump was at about the time of day Cooper WANTED to jump. The second was mid day. Both times I believe I used a chute very similar to his. The weather conditions were good. (They wouldn't let us jump in a storm)

3) I am extremely qualified to instigate or spot Deception. I have been consulted by Law Enforcement personnel about how to spot lies or misdirection. (No ... My last name is Koenig but my first name is not Joe.. Just coincedence) David Copperfield  has purchased the rights to one of my Mental Illusions and he performs it twice a night in Vegas. I've studied Deception for over 20 years. I hold both the Houdini Award and the Merlin Award... Trickery is my business.

4) My wife has worked in a bank for over 20 years. She knows the ins and outs of money and how it is handled in banks. The drummer in one of my bands lived on Suavie Island which I believe is near Tina Bar. My band played Portland Oregon often and it is possible I knew the cocaine dealers who claimed the money was planted. (Still trying sniff that one out) I am skeptical of every single word that the FBI has said in this case. I'm not calling them liars but I am demanding proof instead of just their word.

5) Virtually every kid in my neighborhood would have loved to believe that his father was D.B. Cooper. I felt the same way but my Dad was only 5 foot 5...I have. a similar mindset to Cooper. Sticking it to the man was a good thing back then. People were rioting because of the insane war. Four were killed in Ohio. Stewardesses looked like Euro Trash Movie stars and the world was a much different place back then.

6) I'm semi-retired now and I only have to perform a few times a month. So I have plenty of time to read all the new books, I was on Coast to Coast AM talking about Cooper a while back and I'll be doing it again. I see this as a good place to start .. There's much more but I don't want to burn your eyes out just yet.....

Welcome. Completely off topic, but what instrument do you play and what type of music?

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9 hours ago, JAGdb said:

How come Allison Hancock never seems to be included in this question, wasn't she there when Cooper offered some of the ransom money ?  Didn't Cooper actually attempt to hand a packet to them (Flo/Tina/Allison)?  I guess Allison is even more elusive or tight lipped when it comes to answering Cooper questions.

According to Geoff Gray's Skyjack, Flo and Alice were offered the change from the $20 that Cooper used to purchase his drink. So Alice may not have actually gotten a good look at the ransom money.

skyjack.jpg

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9 minutes ago, ParrotheadVol said:

According to Geoff Gray's Skyjack, Flo and Alice were offered the change from the $20 that Cooper used to purchase his drink. So Alice may not have actually gotten a good look at the ransom money.

skyjack.jpg

Page 23 of Richard Tosaw's book has a discussion of Cooper offering Alice and Florence (the other two stews) one bundle of money each as they were departing the aircraft. Both declined to accept it.

 

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5 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

Page 23 of Richard Tosaw's book has a discussion of Cooper offering Alice and Florence (the other two stews) one bundle of money each as they were departing the aircraft. Both declined to accept it.

 

So who knows? I've never read Tosaw's book. Is it worth a read?

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14 minutes ago, ParrotheadVol said:

So who knows? I've never read Tosaw's book. Is it worth a read?

Yes, Ratazcak said it was the best book (2011) the only one at the time that he thought got things right and he got final approval.. Himmelsbach book 2nd...

That said, all books can have errors.

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Quote

The pink canopy of the chute bursts open and covers the seats like popped bubble gum.

Yeah... umm, no. Those things didn't have pilot chutes, and without the relative wind of freefall, that thing at best is going to fall to the floor below where it's being held. If it is on the floor, or one of the seats, it's going to sit there until it's pulled out. If it did have a pilot chute, the pilot chute would pop out to however strong the spring was.

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Thanks Parrot head

I am a singer dancer in a group called The Leesburg Blues Brothers Tribute here in Florida. I was the lead singer at the Universal Studios show for 17 years and also at the House of Blues for 20. I'm semi-retired now having impersonated Jake Blues for over 33 years professionally. Now it's time to solve this case. Skyjacked is a fantastically written book. I loved it. It also hints at Cooper's MO of offering his female victims money for their inconvenience. Another of the suspects also does this in a robbery. 

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10 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

Yes, Ratazcak said it was the best book (2011) the only one at the time that he thought got things right and he got final approval.. Himmelsbach book 2nd...

That said, all books can have errors.

Have you noticed any changes in Ratazcak's testimony over the years?

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5 hours ago, Slim King said:

I have jumped twice in the advertised jump area at less than 175 knots and at 10,000 feet. I'm an inexperienced jumper but these were solo jumps made a few years after the Cooper jump.

I'm curious about how you made your jumps. In those days there were no tandems or AFF like today. Everyone, military or civilian, went through static-line programs, and the first few jumps would be static-line at about 3,000ft. There were a couple people doing harness hold 'buddy' jumps. A guy named Bob Sinclair famously did one with Johnny Carson in I think '68.

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(edited)
7 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

Here we go again, Georger playing histrionics,, nobody said they are designed to last 6 months.

Paper bank bands are paper not the same material as currency,, paper disintegrates within 3 months outside and wet.. if they were stored in a dry environment like a bank they would last a long time.. probably longer than stretched rubber bands.

I am not sure about the glue... would it release quickly when wet?

No histrionics - just want the facts for a change. You dont really know anything about "Federal Reserve approved money straps" but that doesnt prevent you from telling us all about them! Dissolve in 6 months ? Paper disintegrates within three months? Are paper not same as currency. But you arent sure about the glue ... 

Im not going to waste people's time reciting what three paper chemists familiar with the Cooper case said today. We dont need facts in the Cooper case.

You should open a lab and compete with these paper chemists: SGS Integrated Paper Services  https://ipstesting.com/

Tell us all about those straps, FJ. You know more about the DB Cooper money than the Ingrams, Tom Kaye, the FBI, and everyone else all put together! Who dares compete! 

This is hopeless. Isnt it!  

Edited by georger

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(edited)
1 hour ago, georger said:

No histrionics - just want the facts for a change. You dont really know anything about "Federal Reserve approved money straps" but that doesnt prevent you from telling us all about them! Dissolve in 6 months ? Paper disintegrates within three months? Are paper not same as currency. But you arent sure about the glue ... 

Im not going to waste people's time reciting what three paper chemists familiar with the Cooper case said today. We dont need facts in the Cooper case.

You should open a lab and compete with these paper chemists: SGS Integrated Paper Services  https://ipstesting.com/

Tell us all about those straps, FJ. You know more about the DB Cooper money than the Ingrams, Tom Kaye, the FBI, and everyone else all put together! Who dares compete! 

This is hopeless. Isnt it!  

Nobody said they were designed to fail in 6 months, you made it up. 

Not sure why you feel the need to do that.

ABA and Federal Reserve straps are made from white kraft paper. One of the strongest papers when dry but weakens significantly when wet..

It can degrade in weeks depending on environment, 3 months is max outside and wet..

I have no idea what type of glue was used in 1971.

Edited by FLYJACK

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(edited)
4 hours ago, Slim King said:

Have you noticed any changes in Ratazcak's testimony over the years?

No, he has been consistent. Others have been trying to discredit Ratazcak but IMO have failed miserably.

The only caveat is that the crew was instructed early on to only mention public info already revealed in the newspapers. So, they have generally revealed more over time as more case info has become public.

 

Edited by FLYJACK

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48 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

No, he has been consistent. Others have been trying to discredit Ratazcak but IMO have failed miserably.

The only caveat is that the crew was instructed early on to only mention public info already revealed in the newspapers. So, they have generally revealed more over time as more case info has become public.

 

I watched my first video of him last night. I believe it was 2012 or so ... Maybe the 40 year anniversary or something. Everyone was laughing and he was pretty funny. But I have a theory about him and it's getting stronger the more I read and study this case. I have three books to finish and I'll be up to par with the most recent books. Vern Jones has one coming out soon and I'll read it right away. However I'd like some hints on the highlights of the 2300 pages here. Where do I start to get an overview and where should I drill down?

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