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DB Cooper

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24 minutes ago, haggarknew said:

(Cossey) being the only civilian rigger working in that area

But was he? I would doubt it. Any dropzone, such as Sky Sports, among their community of jumpers there would be a number of riggers. But if Cossey was the principal rigger at Sky Sports' loft then it makes sense that it's his name on Hayden's rigs. I'm guessing that the flight service that took care of Hayden's plane would also take care of his rigs, and they would just go to the local dz. And it was that flight service that came up with Hayden's rigs. And that would explain Cossey's name on Hayden's rigs despite the two men saying they never met each other.

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(edited)
2 hours ago, dudeman17 said:

You think Cooper knew who Cossey was? Ha, you're tipping your (Haggar's?) hand there.

But from an objective viewpoint, I think Cooper was hoping to get mains for 'back' rigs. When he got the bailout rigs, which are reserves, he would want to know what the canopies were. A rigger will sometimes note which kind, if any, of steerability the canopy has. Cossey did not note that, but Cooper wouldn't know that until he looked at the card. The fact that he even knew to look at the cards would show at least some familiarity with parachutes.

Carr insists Cooper was a no-pull. (which follows the old FBI scenario and a scenario someone wrote at wiki - that Cooper's handling of the chutes showed him a rank amateur)

What do you think ?

Edited by georger

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3 hours ago, dudeman17 said:

You think Cooper knew who Cossey was? Ha, you're tipping your (Haggar's?) hand there.

But from an objective viewpoint, I think Cooper was hoping to get mains for 'back' rigs. When he got the bailout rigs, which are reserves, he would want to know what the canopies were. A rigger will sometimes note which kind, if any, of steerability the canopy has. Cossey did not note that, but Cooper wouldn't know that until he looked at the card. The fact that he even knew to look at the cards would show at least some familiarity with parachutes.

Cooper's primary concern would that he had good chutes.. he checked the rigs and the cards.

The one he took was a 1960, the one he left was a 1957...

He probably just selected the newer one.

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(edited)

Very good interview of Agent Carr: https://www.listennotes.com/podcasts/the-cooper-vortex-darren-schaefer-and-SAjTPN0by-8/

Carr explains his views well under very focused questioning by a superbly prepared Darren. A couple of things stand out. Larry's forte is not technology or science. Larry knows about Tom's work but really doesnt known in any detail what Tom did or has found. Larry appears only on the private Ulis Facebook page so if you are approved you can ask Larry questions there. If not approved, tough luck. That casino is open only to members. 

Larry says Cooper was a no pull. His bones are yet to be found in the Washougal Basin. The money survived intact in the bag and then washed into the Columbia, perhaps got snagged by floating debris, then 'floated' up on Tena Bar where - conveniently without being noticed by anyone for an indeterminable time - the bag conveniently dissolved quickly, not being noticed again, most of the money washed away without being noticed, until at length the Ingram's discovered three bundles, buried between 3-8" deep. ?  Darren failed to ask Larry to explain the fragments because - there are no fragments.    

Edited by georger
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4 hours ago, georger said:

Very good interview of Agent Carr: https://www.listennotes.com/podcasts/the-cooper-vortex-darren-schaefer-and-SAjTPN0by-8/

Carr explains his views well under very focused questioning by a superbly prepared Darren. A couple of things stand out. Larry's forte is not technology or science. Larry knows about Tom's work but really doesnt known in any detail what Tom did or has found. Larry appears only on the private Ulis Facebook page so if you are approved you can ask Larry questions there. If not approved, tough luck. That casino is open only to members. 

Larry says Cooper was a no pull. His bones are yet to be found in the Washougal Basin. The money survived intact in the bag and then washed into the Columbia, perhaps got snagged by floating debris, then 'floated' up on Tena Bar where - conveniently without being noticed by anyone for an indeterminable time - the bag conveniently dissolved quickly, not being noticed again, most of the money washed away without being noticed, until at length the Ingram's discovered three bundles, buried between 3-8" deep. ?  Darren failed to ask Larry to explain the fragments because - there are no fragments.    

That interview exposed Carr's lack of up to date case knowledge.. not to blame him.

Unless he has access to new files/info, he only has opinions. 

IMO, the FBI bias is to have Cooper die in the jump, that is why they didn't solve it.

I give zero credibility for his "died in the jump" opinion, he has no evidence.

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(edited)

Here is what happened with Cossey and the chutes.

Cossey was contacted at home and asked for chutes, all four.

He said to get them from Issaquah. But, before Linn Emerick grabbed them the back chutes were secured from Norm Hayden who sent them in by cab.

Linn Emerick was instructed to grab only the two front chutes needed.. he grabbed a good one and a dummy.

So, Cossey believed on the night of the hijacking that the chutes were his form Issaquah.

Cossey did not know Hayden's back chutes were used.

The Hayden chute Cooper used was initially described as olive drab and tan cotton harness..

Cossey was contacted and was informed about the chutes left on the plane, he then described the missing back chute as his custom NB6, sage green nylon container/sage green nylon harness..

Cossey initially believed his chute was used but that error would quickly become self evident. Instead of correcting it, he told many lies to cover it up and never supplied his packing records.

Now, the FBI was not only looking for the wrong chute based on the description from Cossey, they actually had the packing card but never realized it.

It is possible Cooper's chute was found but rejected..

This interview with Cossey, explains it..

“The skydiver staying at the loft had grabbed two of my personal backpacks and two chest packs from the drop zone [Issaquah]. One was my B-4 sport rig and the other was my Pioneer NB-8, a Navy emergency chute used for pilots.”   (this is the only time Cossey ever called the NB-8 a Pioneer)

Cossey was wrong, they were NOT his personal chutes. The back chutes did NOT come from Issaquah with the chest packs, they came from Hayden. Cossey was wrong, they were NOT his personal chutes

Cooper's chute description from Cossey is entirely bogus.. his story shifted over time including claiming he sent the chutes from his home.. probably once it became public that only the chest chutes came from Issaquah and he claimed that he got back the chute left on the plane, he didn't, Hayden got it back.

The FBI screwed this up for 50 years... what else have they screwed up.

 

1751949356_ScreenShot2022-07-28at7_20_12AM.png.25d3cc448634dd9cbffe5e3840244de9.png

Edited by FLYJACK

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I just can't understand why he would think it better to continue to lie about it being his back chutes rather than just admit that he made in incorrect assumption based on the fast moving communication in the immediate aftermath of the hijacking.  After all, it really wasn't his fault that he initially thought they were his, based on how fast everything was moving.

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             According to Hager.....   Cossey was the only civilian rigger working in that area at the time of the hijacking. In fact Hag said he had been the only rigger in that area for a few years preceding the hijacking. Hager told me. ( according to his research ) that the closest working rigger to Cossey lived and worked about 4 or 5 hours away from Seattle. I believe the guy lived north and east of Seattle. He might have been across the state line?  Hag also mentioned about one other rigger that might have packed some chutes during this time. Hag said there was a small airport in the southern part of the state ( Washington ). I think it was about 20 or 30 miles east of Vancouver Washington, maybe just a little north as well. It was operated by a husband and wife. They had a son that was a certified rigger. Although he might have stayed in the state of Washington at times, Hag said this guy worked ( as a rigger ) in the state of Oregon. Hag thought it possible that this rigger might have packed some chutes at his mom and dad's airport for some of their customers? As far as Hager could tell these were the only civilian riggers working anywhere near the hijacking. There were , of course, many different military riggers working during this time.      Might this be why Cossey was relevant?  ( if he indeed was the only civilian rigger working that area )  Who else was the. F.B.I. going to go to?

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3 hours ago, JAGdb said:

I just can't understand why he would think it better to continue to lie about it being his back chutes rather than just admit that he made in incorrect assumption based on the fast moving communication in the immediate aftermath of the hijacking.  After all, it really wasn't his fault that he initially thought they were his, based on how fast everything was moving.

Bruce Smith talked to someone who knew Cossey, he said he was a serial liar.

He gets elevated if the chutes were his and not Hayden's..

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(edited)
3 hours ago, haggarknew said:

             According to Hager.....   Cossey was the only civilian rigger working in that area at the time of the hijacking. In fact Hag said he had been the only rigger in that area for a few years preceding the hijacking. Hager told me. ( according to his research ) that the closest working rigger to Cossey lived and worked about 4 or 5 hours away from Seattle. I believe the guy lived north and east of Seattle. He might have been across the state line?  Hag also mentioned about one other rigger that might have packed some chutes during this time. Hag said there was a small airport in the southern part of the state ( Washington ). I think it was about 20 or 30 miles east of Vancouver Washington, maybe just a little north as well. It was operated by a husband and wife. They had a son that was a certified rigger. Although he might have stayed in the state of Washington at times, Hag said this guy worked ( as a rigger ) in the state of Oregon. Hag thought it possible that this rigger might have packed some chutes at his mom and dad's airport for some of their customers? As far as Hager could tell these were the only civilian riggers working anywhere near the hijacking. There were , of course, many different military riggers working during this time.      Might this be why Cossey was relevant?  ( if he indeed was the only civilian rigger working that area )  Who else was the. F.B.I. going to go to?

Cossey was brought in by a "business associate" at Sea Tac.. it was a coincidence that he also packed Hayden's back chutes.

"Earlier that evening, skydiver Earl Cossey, a master rigger, received a telephone call at home. The call was from a business associate who also happened to be the manager of Sea-Tac International Airport. The airport manager asked Cossey for two backpacks and two chest-mount reserves as soon as possible but could not disclose the reason he needed them. Cossey admits he wondered about the manager’s request, “But I trusted him completely and did as I was told,” he said.

Cossey called his drop zone in Issaquah, Washington, and asked a person who was staying there to collect the rigs and hand them over to authorities. Police rushed the rigs in a patrol car from the drop zone to Sea-Tac International.

Later that evening, Cossey heard on the news that there was a hijacking in progress. He was stunned at the revelation that this was why the authorities had asked for his parachutes. “I thought, ‘Oh crap! There go my parachutes!’ ” Cossey recalled. “I was just laughing at the stupidity of that guy and thought, ‘This guy’s nuts.’”

Edited by FLYJACK

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(edited)
5 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

That interview exposed Carr's lack of up to date case knowledge.. not to blame him.

Unless he has access to new files/info, he only has opinions. 

IMO, the FBI bias is to have Cooper die in the jump, that is why they didn't solve it.

I give zero credibility for his "died in the jump" opinion, he has no evidence.

It could be 'tactics'.  If you claim somebody died when word gets out, somebody who knew Cooper might be moved to provide evidence he is not dead - something concrete like a photo from Havana with Cooper's arm around some girl in a bar, with a $20 pasted on back of the photo! Larry places a high value on people talking, ie human nature. Then as time passes if people dont talk, then Cooper surely must be dead - confirmation bias. .................... How to navigate in a back hole 1:01 ...  something "actionable", Larry's favorite word.

Edited by georger

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33 minutes ago, georger said:

It could be 'tactics'.  If you claim somebody died when word gets out, somebody who knew Cooper might be moved to provide evidence he is not dead - something concrete like a photo from Havana with Cooper's arm around some girl in a bar, with a $20 pasted on back of the photo! Larry places a high value on people talking, ie human nature. Then as time passes if people dont talk, then Cooper surely must be dead - confirmation bias. .................... How to navigate in a back hole 1:01 ...  something "actionable", Larry's favorite word.

Maybe, earlier during an active investigation, not now 50 years later.. 

Sometime in '72, the FBI narrative switched from Cooper was clever to he was not and died in the jump..

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44 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

Cossey was brought in by a "business associate" at Sea Tac.. it was a coincidence that he also packed Hayden's back chutes.

"Earlier that evening, skydiver Earl Cossey, a master rigger, received a telephone call at home. The call was from a business associate who also happened to be the manager of Sea-Tac International Airport. The airport manager asked Cossey for two backpacks and two chest-mount reserves as soon as possible but could not disclose the reason he needed them. Cossey admits he wondered about the manager’s request, “But I trusted him completely and did as I was told,” he said.

Cossey called his drop zone in Issaquah, Washington, and asked a person who was staying there to collect the rigs and hand them over to authorities. Police rushed the rigs in a patrol car from the drop zone to Sea-Tac International.

Later that evening, Cossey heard on the news that there was a hijacking in progress. He was stunned at the revelation that this was why the authorities had asked for his parachutes. “I thought, ‘Oh crap! There go my parachutes!’ ” Cossey recalled. “I was just laughing at the stupidity of that guy and thought, ‘This guy’s nuts.’”

Of course they would contact Cossey. If he's the only civilian rigger working that area and they only have a certain window of time to find them ( the chutes ) and have them delivered to the airport,  who else are they going to contact?   And it wasn't coincidence that he was the one who packed Hayden's chute. As the only civilian rigger working that area at the time and also as the only one that had been there for the previous few years, it didn't matter where the chutes came from. They almost certainly were going to be chutes packed by Cossey, given the time frame they were working with.  Cooper's foolproof plan to make sure he wasn't getting a chute that had been fucked with?

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47 minutes ago, haggarknew said:

Of course they would contact Cossey. If he's the only civilian rigger working that area and they only have a certain window of time to find them ( the chutes ) and have them delivered to the airport,  who else are they going to contact?   And it wasn't coincidence that he was the one who packed Hayden's chute. As the only civilian rigger working that area at the time and also as the only one that had been there for the previous few years, it didn't matter where the chutes came from. They almost certainly were going to be chutes packed by Cossey, given the time frame they were working with.  Cooper's foolproof plan to make sure he wasn't getting a chute that had been fucked with?

Wrong,,

Cooper thought the chutes were military ones coming from McChord.

There is no relationship between Cooper and Cossey.

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(edited)
1 hour ago, haggarknew said:

I have a hard time believing Cooper would accept chutes he knew came from McChord.

Cooper was told erroneously that the chutes were coming from McChord.. he was concerned about the delay and commented that the chutes shouldn't take that long from McChord.

So, he believed they were coming from McChord, not Cossey or Hayden or any private rigger.

I found Cossey's riggers registration..

April 14, 1971..  I doubt he was the only rigger in the area. Hayden's rigs were packed by Cossey May 21, 1971, 5 weeks after he got his Master Parachute Rigger certification. Maybe there was a lower level rigger cert, there is a senior rigger.. Cossey may have had a senior rigger cert prior.

 

Certificate: MASTER PARACHUTE RIGGER  
Date of Issue: 4/14/1971

Ratings: 
MASTER PARACHUTE RIGGER
  BACK
  CHEST
  SEAT


Limits:
SEAL SYMBOL HF9.
 

Edited by FLYJACK

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23 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

Cossey was going to duplicate Cooper's jump.. that may be why he didn't correct his chute error..

It was all set up then fell through..

Could he have made it?  "Oh yeah," Cossey insists, firmly.

1579246591_ScreenShot2022-07-29at7_12_32AM.png.df9909efd0f43c7ec4cd70ec5d4a1a33.png

Maybe it's as simple as him being a serial liar and/or attention seeker.  And the attempt to recreate the jump kind of falls in line with that.  What year is the above newspaper clip from ?  Is it closer to the 1971 or further away?

On the other side of it, even if he corrected the record that the back chutes were not his, the front chutes were still his and he was still the rigger for Hayden's back chutes so I am not sure it would have really diminished his attention. 

I guess not everything that happens always follows perfect logic. It just feels like something is missing from the equation, perpetuating a false narrative in an FBI investigation is playing with fire and you would think there would be a real reason to do it beyond just wanting attention.  But again reality doesn't always follow the most logical path.

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(edited)

Here we go...................

In Dec 1971 the cigarette butts were disposed of..

There is no way the FBI did not know this or could easily figure this out over 50 years.

IMO, They destroyed the cigarette butts within weeks but could never admit it.  

FBI docs, Dec 9, 1971

Cigarette butts are Q1..

318471397_ScreenShot2022-07-29at7_51_25AM.png.5257c5a92c04a9517ee0ed950b4a287c.png

"disposition of Q1"

853187139_ScreenShot2022-07-29at7_51_57AM.png.b92ca257430f7adbffe56cc28e0a941e.png

Edited by FLYJACK

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(edited)
33 minutes ago, JAGdb said:

Maybe it's as simple as him being a serial liar and/or attention seeker.  And the attempt to recreate the jump kind of falls in line with that.  What year is the above newspaper clip from ?  Is it closer to the 1971 or further away?

On the other side of it, even if he corrected the record that the back chutes were not his, the front chutes were still his and he was still the rigger for Hayden's back chutes so I am not sure it would have really diminished his attention. 

I guess not everything that happens always follows perfect logic. It just feels like something is missing from the equation, perpetuating a false narrative in an FBI investigation is playing with fire and you would think there would be a real reason to do it beyond just wanting attention.  But again reality doesn't always follow the most logical path.

The re-enactment was to take place early Jan '72... Cossey was being vetted to do the jump but it fell through and they used the sleds.

But, Cossey was the FBI's go to guy for the chutes found over the years.. that makes him important and feeds his ego.

If you read his statements to the FBI he didn't exactly lie to them, he was initially mistaken, then indirectly maintained that error.. he did claim he gave them his records but the FBI never got them.. though he lied directly to the media. Carr believed the back chutes came from Cossey's house, not sure if that came from Cossey or Carr assumed it.

Bruce thinks Cossey was used by the FBI to spread a narrative... he flip flopped on whether Cooper survived the jump..

It seems that much later the FBI lost confidence in Cossey.

bottom line is Cossey is completely unreliable and his description of Cooper's chute conflicts with the evidence.

Did the FBI catch it or just cover it up as well?

It seems odd that the FBI didn't catch Cossey's error.

 

 

Edited by FLYJACK
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(edited)
4 hours ago, JAGdb said:

Maybe it's as simple as him being a serial liar and/or attention seeker.  And the attempt to recreate the jump kind of falls in line with that.  What year is the above newspaper clip from ?  Is it closer to the 1971 or further away?

On the other side of it, even if he corrected the record that the back chutes were not his, the front chutes were still his and he was still the rigger for Hayden's back chutes so I am not sure it would have really diminished his attention. 

I guess not everything that happens always follows perfect logic. It just feels like something is missing from the equation, perpetuating a false narrative in an FBI investigation is playing with fire and you would think there would be a real reason to do it beyond just wanting attention.  But again reality doesn't always follow the most logical path.

Unless I am missing something -  Cossey was the official packer-rigger of ALL of the chutes as a fact, which makes him the closest thing to an expert on all of the chutes provided Cooper. Of course the FBI is going to use Cossey. Has nothing to do with ego or personality - its just a fact! He may not have remembered  all of the aspects of every chute he worked on during his life. He's only human!   I dont place too much stock in some people's push to psychoanalyze Cossey's life! I DOUBT THE PEOPLE USING THIS TACTIC CAN STAND UP TO THE SAME ANALYSIS!! 

I know one well known Cooper researcher in the news who pumps the FBI for any information he can get on the one hand then turns around and smears the FBI on the other - one of the same people that said Tina was a 'psych case and worthless'. 

Does any of this tell us anything worthwhile about Cooper ?

Edited by georger

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5 minutes ago, georger said:

Unless I am missing something -  Cossey was the official packer-rigger of ALL of the chutes as a fact, which makes him the closest thing to an expert on all of the chutes provided Cooper. Has nothing to do with ego or personality - its just a fact! He may not have remembered  all of the aspects of every chute. I dont place to much stock in people's push t psychoanalyze Cossey's life! i DOUBT THE PEOPLE USING THIS TACTIC CAN STAND UP TO THEIR OWN ANALYSIS!!

You are missing something...  

Cossey claimed and believed that the back chutes were his sent from Issaquah... not Hayden's.. this is explained earlier.

The context is,, why would he maintain this error once it was self evidently false.

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