DB Cooper

[FLYJACK 654]

On 11/30/2022 at 9:28 AM, FLYJACK said:

I found lots of 95% Al, 5% Mg particles on the tie, this is called Magnalium and it comes in different ratio's but this ratio is softer and in powder form is primarily used in pyrotechnics, explosives, flares, rocket fuel.. In ratio's of more MG it is used to form airplane and auto parts. More Mg makes it more brittle.

All these particles (this pic a sample, not all) indicate powder form exposure.. 

It may be from the "bomb".. flares or a firework..

Earlier, I had posted a match for many of the particles, a hand held sparkler.. It produces bright yellow white sparks.

So, pyrotechnics is a big use, commercial, military or retail,, 

but I am looking for other uses..

 

I noticed lots of these particles on the tie and posted this a year ago...

95% AL 5% MG

[Chaucer 103]

Looks like magnalium used In pyrotechnics has a much higher magnesium content than just 5%.

[CooperNWO305 146]

4 hours ago, Chaucer said:

In speaking with Tom, he says it's certainly possible that the cloth bank bag could act as a "filter" for the diatoms, especially the larger ones like Asterionella.

Something to consider when discussing the money find. 

What if something else was wrapped around the bag, acting as a double filter, say something like a bed sheet?

[FLYJACK 654]

25 minutes ago, CooperNWO305 said:

What if something else was wrapped around the bag, acting as a double filter, say something like a bed sheet?

Problem is silt is smaller than diatoms...  

How do you get diatoms on the money but not silt,,, and silt is in the sand

[FLYJACK 654]

Happy birthday NORJAK...

[ParrotheadVol 70]

20 hours ago, Chaucer said:

In speaking with Tom, he says it's certainly possible that the cloth bank bag could act as a "filter" for the diatoms, especially the larger ones like Asterionella.

Something to consider when discussing the money find. 

So does that now mean that the money could have entered the water on the night of the skyjacking. As I said on the facebook group yesterday, the more we find out about this money and Tena Bar, the more confusing it gets. It's supposed to work the opposite way dammit, lol.

[FLYJACK 654]

40 minutes ago, ParrotheadVol said:

So does that now mean that the money could have entered the water on the night of the skyjacking. As I said on the facebook group yesterday, the more we find out about this money and Tena Bar, the more confusing it gets. It's supposed to work the opposite way dammit, lol.

No

[Chaucer 103]

1 hour ago, ParrotheadVol said:

So does that now mean that the money could have entered the water on the night of the skyjacking. As I said on the facebook group yesterday, the more we find out about this money and Tena Bar, the more confusing it gets. It's supposed to work the opposite way dammit, lol.

Maybe? I dunno.

Tom would have to answer that question. 

That said, It seems the presumption has been that the three packets arrived at Tena Bar separately from the rest of the money. I've longed said that the money arrived together in the money bag. 

[CooperNWO305 146]

18 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

Problem is silt is smaller than diatoms...  

How do you get diatoms on the money but not silt,,, and silt is in the sand

I was referring to a news article about a bed sheet that was DB Cooper’s that he used as a batwing to fly to Tina Bar and then bury the money with it. 

[olemisscub 466]

39 minutes ago, CooperNWO305 said:

I was referring to a news article about a bed sheet that was DB Cooper’s that he used as a batwing to fly to Tina Bar and then bury the money with it. 

I’m so, so glad he gave that up and didn’t double down on it

[Robert99 37]

1 hour ago, Chaucer said:

Maybe? I dunno.

Tom would have to answer that question. 

That said, It seems the presumption has been that the three packets arrived at Tena Bar separately from the rest of the money. I've longed said that the money arrived together in the money bag. 

Flyjack is correct in discounting the probability of the money bag ending up in the river on the night of the hijacking.  But in all probability, Cooper was probably a no-pull who landed on solid ground in the vicinity of Tena Bar with the money bag being damaged on ground impact.

I initially considered the possibility that the money packets (or whatever you want to call them) arrived separately.  Dr. Meyer Louie and I spent an entire day a number of years ago checking into that possibility.  We (primarily Meyer) checked the entire area including the diary drainage pond (which was dry) with metal detectors and found absolutely nothing that could have been related to the hijacking.

So the only conclusion from the above is that anything related to the hijacking has long since departed the Tena Bar area and probably at the same time the money was deposited there.

Again in all probability, the money was still in a damaged money bag when it arrived at Tena Bar and probably still attached to what was left of Cooper's mortal remains which was probably just bones at that point. 

[Chaucer 103]

This past September, olemisscub located Thomas Spangler, the man who is identified in the FBI files as providing the FBI flight path map to them. I'd spent well over a year trying to find the guy, but olemisscub got him.

I called and interviewed Mr. Spangler who is alive and well, and quite alert considering his age. Very nice guy. Here are some takeaways from that interview:

* Capt. Spangler retired as Major Spangler in the 1980s. In November of 1971, he was stationed at McChord as a navigator for C-130s and C-141s and specialized in calculating drops.

* The day after the hijacking, he was given the map along with weather data and the time that NWA believed Cooper jumped by the unit at the SAGE blockhouse at McChord. He wasn't even allowed in the building. They met him at the door and gave him the stuff. He says that no civilian radar was used in constructing the flight path map. It came directly from the SAGE unit at McChord. 

* He was tasked with creating the first drop zone for Cooper. He described the drop zone as "teardrop shaped" and put Cooper directly in the middle of Lake Merwin.

* When he was done with his drop analysis, he turned over his drop zone map along with the yellow flight path map over to the FBI. Thus, Spangler did not create the yellow flight path map, he simply used that map to create the very first drop zone map - one which we have never seen.

* He recalls that the map was given to him with the red crosses on it, but cannot recall if he or someone else drew the dark line and time stamps on it

* He had full confidence that the plot points on the map were perfectly accurate. He said the SAGE guys were air defense and did stuff like that all the time. He independently confirmed what Len Camp, the senior director at NORAD said:  SAGE could differentiate between a Mode 2 and Mode 3 IFF transponder code, both in real time and in data printouts. 

* He said that he recalls the sled test because he arranged for everything, but has no recollection of the men on it. He still has original photographs from the sled test along with notes regarding the case. He says he was the one who arranged the C-141 with a camera crew to fly alongside the jetliner during the sled test.

* He said he doesn't recall feeling a physical "pressure bump" on the sled test flight, but he wasn't really paying attention to that aspect.

* He had full confidence that the plot points on the map were perfectly accurate. He said the SAGE guys were air defense and did stuff like that all the time. He independently confirmed what Len Camp, the senior director at NORAD said:  SAGE could differentiate between a Mode 2 and Mode 3 IFF transponder code, both in real time and in data printouts. 

* After the sled test, he had little to no contact from the FBI about the case. 

I certainly left out a lot of details, but we now have a much better understanding of the origin of the yellow map, and now we have to be on the lookout for the "Spangler DZ map" in the FBI files.

[FLYJACK 654]

56 minutes ago, Chaucer said:

This past September, olemisscub located Thomas Spangler, the man who is identified in the FBI files as providing the FBI flight path map to them. I'd spent well over a year trying to find the guy, but olemisscub got him.

I called and interviewed Mr. Spangler who is alive and well, and quite alert considering his age. Very nice guy. Here are some takeaways from that interview:

* Capt. Spangler retired as Major Spangler in the 1980s. In November of 1971, he was stationed at McChord as a navigator for C-130s and C-141s and specialized in calculating drops.

* The day after the hijacking, he was given the map along with weather data and the time that NWA believed Cooper jumped by the unit at the SAGE blockhouse at McChord. He wasn't even allowed in the building. They met him at the door and gave him the stuff. He says that no civilian radar was used in constructing the flight path map. It came directly from the SAGE unit at McChord. 

* He was tasked with creating the first drop zone for Cooper. He described the drop zone as "teardrop shaped" and put Cooper directly in the middle of Lake Merwin.

* When he was done with his drop analysis, he turned over his drop zone map along with the yellow flight path map over to the FBI. Thus, Spangler did not create the yellow flight path map, he simply used that map to create the very first drop zone map - one which we have never seen.

* He recalls that the map was given to him with the red crosses on it, but cannot recall if he or someone else drew the dark line and time stamps on it

* He had full confidence that the plot points on the map were perfectly accurate. He said the SAGE guys were air defense and did stuff like that all the time. He independently confirmed what Len Camp, the senior director at NORAD said:  SAGE could differentiate between a Mode 2 and Mode 3 IFF transponder code, both in real time and in data printouts. 

* He said that he recalls the sled test because he arranged for everything, but has no recollection of the men on it. He still has original photographs from the sled test along with notes regarding the case. He says he was the one who arranged the C-141 with a camera crew to fly alongside the jetliner during the sled test.

* He said he doesn't recall feeling a physical "pressure bump" on the sled test flight, but he wasn't really paying attention to that aspect.

* He had full confidence that the plot points on the map were perfectly accurate. He said the SAGE guys were air defense and did stuff like that all the time. He independently confirmed what Len Camp, the senior director at NORAD said:  SAGE could differentiate between a Mode 2 and Mode 3 IFF transponder code, both in real time and in data printouts. 

* After the sled test, he had little to no contact from the FBI about the case. 

I certainly left out a lot of details, but we now have a much better understanding of the origin of the yellow map, and now we have to be on the lookout for the "Spangler DZ map" in the FBI files.

I think that map isn't actually yellow.. but in a yellow sleeve or laminated.. 

Edited November 25, 2023 by FLYJACK

[FLYJACK 654]

Maybe Cooper removed the tie to wipe his prints.. the door, inter-phone, stair control handle and the seat armrests...

They look like wood,, maybe 

and an ashtray, and the end cap... is it Aluminum alloy or SS?

Edited November 25, 2023 by FLYJACK

[olemisscub 466]

26 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

Maybe Cooper removed the tie to wipe his prints.. the door, inter-phone, stair control handle and the seat armrests...

They look like wood,, maybe 

and an ashtray, and the end cap... is it Aluminum alloy or SS?

This is why it's critically important that Tom be allowed to put sticky stubs on the museum chute. We need a control FROM the plane to be run against the tie. 

[olemisscub 466]

Drew Beeson and I did an anniversary show for anyone interested.

 

[FLYJACK 654]

15 hours ago, olemisscub said:

Drew Beeson and I did an anniversary show for anyone interested.

 

Totally disagree on Cooper's intended jump zone...

Fact is.. his initial demand was airstairs lowered in flight. That is absolutely clear from the files and changes everything. It tells us his initial intent. Airstairs lowered on takeoff came up during the Reno negotiations. The crew was trying to get Tina off the plane and suggested locking half way which wasn't possible. This aspect is completely misunderstood by almost everyone.

The tornado theory was mine, I shared the basic idea with a few people and have been working on it for years but it is far too extensive and detailed to post on a forum..

[olemisscub 466]

38 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

Totally disagree on Cooper's intended jump zone...

Fact is.. his initial demand was airstairs lowered in flight. That is absolutely clear from the files and changes everything. It tells us his initial intent. Airstairs lowered on takeoff came up during the Reno negotiations. The crew was trying to get Tina off the plane and suggested locking half way which wasn't possible. This aspect is completely misunderstood by almost everyone.

The tornado theory was mine, I shared the basic idea with a few people and have been working on it for years but it is far too extensive and detailed to post on a forum..

I know your theory and I've genuinely tried to understand it numerous times. Either I'm an idiot or you haven't explained it well (or maybe both), but I've never been able to understand what you are trying to convey when you've gone through it. I've tried. Regardless, I don't think he wanted to jump outside Seattle. He wasn't even ready to jump when they took off. 

I checked my messages and the first time anyone messaged me about the Vancouver tornado was Nicky back in June when he sent me an article about the tornado. So unless you told him about it, then he had a similar idea as you. 

[FLYJACK 654]

39 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

I know your theory and I've genuinely tried to understand it numerous times. Either I'm an idiot or you haven't explained it well (or maybe both), but I've never been able to understand what you are trying to convey when you've gone through it. I've tried. Regardless, I don't think he wanted to jump outside Seattle. He wasn't even ready to jump when they took off. 

I checked my messages and the first time anyone messaged me about the Vancouver tornado was Nicky back in June when he sent me an article about the tornado. So unless you told him about it, then he had a similar idea as you. 

Maybe, but I bet he got it from somebody else..  but I have done extensive research on it for about 2 years. I told a few people including Tom K  long ago..

Cooper's initial demands were airstairs lowered in flight... that is documented and confirmed in multiple places. That was his initial plan. FACT

Airstairs lowered on take off came from Reno negotiations with crew. FACT

Therefore, the airstairs lowered on takeoff does NOT indicate or influence his original planned LZ.. 

People use the airstairs lowered in flight to indicate his planned LZ,,,

Cooper changed his plan due to Reno...

 

The extension of that is because Cooper initially wanted airstairs lowered in flight then he could have wanted to jump further south... but what evidence is there that he wanted to jump further south,,,  well there are a few things.

If you look at it there is no evidence that Cooper INITIALLY wanted to jump in the PNW.. The PNW jump came from the Reno negotiation and his change of plan.

 

 

Edited November 25, 2023 by FLYJACK

[olemisscub 466]

1 hour ago, FLYJACK said:

Maybe, but I bet he got it from somebody else..  but I have done extensive research on it for about 2 years. I told a few people including Tom K  long ago..

Cooper's initial demands were airstairs lowered in flight... that is documented and confirmed in multiple places. That was his initial plan. FACT

Airstairs lowered on take off came from Reno negotiations with crew. FACT

Therefore, the airstairs lowered on takeoff does NOT indicate or influence his original planned LZ.. 

People use the airstairs lowered in flight to indicate his planned LZ,,,

Cooper changed his plan due to Reno...

 

There is nothing in any of that which negates a Portland area DZ. It IS evidence against a Seattle DZ, however. 

[FLYJACK 654]

49 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

There is nothing in any of that which negates a Portland area DZ. It IS evidence against a Seattle DZ, however. 

There is NO evidence for a "Portland" area DZ,,,  (pre Reno accepted) none.

 

The points against Portland/PNW are..

Clothing,, Cooper wasn't dressed for a PNW jump in that weather/terrain.

His initial demand was Mexico, non stop. He believed the plane could make Mexico,,, I  have a theory on why that was incorrect.

He was described as swarthy latin part native/Mexican. 

He rejected US airports for being being too large for refuelling before accepting Reno,, there is no reason to do this unless he thought he was going to be on the plane when it landed.. if his initially planned LZ was the "Portland/PNW" area the size if the refuelling airport is irrelevant. 

Cooper gave no directions, his jump spot was not planned. The plane could have been far East or West.. Other than heading South he did not know where he was jumping.

Portland and the PNW is the scene of the crime, it would be safer to jump as far away as possible.

 

IMO, Cooper initially wanted to jump further south, lower stairs in flight and give specific instructions to his LZ later in the air. When Reno came into play he changed his plan to jump ASAP and not be on the plane when it landed in Reno. 

He changed his plan...  that is one reason this case is so difficult.

Edited November 26, 2023 by FLYJACK

[olemisscub 466]

17 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

There is NO evidence for a "Portland" area DZ,,,  (pre Reno accepted) none.

 

The points against Portland/PNW are..

Clothing,, Cooper wasn't dressed for a PNW jump in that weather/terrain.

His initial demand was Mexico, non stop. He believed the plane could make Mexico,,, I  have a theory on why that was incorrect.

He was described as swarthy latin part native/Mexican. 

He rejected US airports for being being too large for refuelling before accepting Reno,, there is no reason to do this unless he thought he was going to be on the plane when it landed.. if his initially planned LZ was the "Portland/PNW" area the size if the refuelling airport is irrelevant. 

Cooper gave no directions, his jump spot was not planned. The plane could have been far East or West.. Other than heading South he did not know where he was jumping.

Portland and the PNW is the scene of the crime, it would be safer to jump as far away as possible.

 

IMO, Cooper initially wanted to jump further south, lower stairs in flight and give specific instructions to his LZ later in the air. When Reno came into play he changed his plan to jump ASAP and not be on the plane when it landed in Reno. 

He changed his plan...  that is one reason this case is so difficult.

Those are all fine opinions, and I'm starting to understand your point with all of this, but they are still just opinions derived from assumptions. None of us know what the guy was thinking. But I totally get your point about why he would he even care to argue about a refueling stop if he intended to jump early in the trip. That element has always made me wonder what he was thinking during all of that. Would LA and SF also have flown down V-23? 

To say there is no evidence for a Portland DZ is obvious...but there is no evidence for ANY particular DZ. 

One thing I've learned from getting close to Mac over the past year is how intricately he planned certain things yet completely brain farted on others. I get that sense from Cooper at times. Mac and Cooper aren't exact analogs but it appears that they were both winging a good bit of their hijacking. 

I do have a hard time with your theory that Cooper didn't have any idea of where he wanted to jump. All of the copycats at least had a rough estimation of where they wanted to jump. They all were planning to jump near where they felt they'd be safe. Mac was planning to jump within an hour (driving time) of Detroit, Hahneman jumped into Honduras, LaPoint was living in Denver at the time and jumped 90 miles north of Denver, and of course Heady and McCoy were jumping very close to their homes. 

As for the Mexico thing, my belief is that Cooper did a little research and saw that the max range of a 727-100 was about 2400 miles and, incidentally, Mexico City is almost exactly 2400 miles from Seattle. Seems to me he wanted the plane to be in flight (without him still in it) for the maximum amount of time, so he picked Mexico City. Of course he seems to later say "anywhere in Mexico", but the point stands. 

[FLYJACK 654]

1 hour ago, olemisscub said:

Those are all fine opinions, and I'm starting to understand your point with all of this, but they are still just opinions derived from assumptions. None of us know what the guy was thinking. But I totally get your point about why he would he even care to argue about a refueling stop if he intended to jump early in the trip. That element has always made me wonder what he was thinking during all of that. Would LA and SF also have flown down V-23? 

To say there is no evidence for a Portland DZ is obvious...but there is no evidence for ANY particular DZ. 

One thing I've learned from getting close to Mac over the past year is how intricately he planned certain things yet completely brain farted on others. I get that sense from Cooper at times. Mac and Cooper aren't exact analogs but it appears that they were both winging a good bit of their hijacking. 

I do have a hard time with your theory that Cooper didn't have any idea of where he wanted to jump. All of the copycats at least had a rough estimation of where they wanted to jump. They all were planning to jump near where they felt they'd be safe. Mac was planning to jump within an hour (driving time) of Detroit, Hahneman jumped into Honduras, LaPoint was living in Denver at the time and jumped 90 miles north of Denver, and of course Heady and McCoy were jumping very close to their homes. 

As for the Mexico thing, my belief is that Cooper did a little research and saw that the max range of a 727-100 was about 2400 miles and, incidentally, Mexico City is almost exactly 2400 miles from Seattle. Seems to me he wanted the plane to be in flight (without him still in it) for the maximum amount of time, so he picked Mexico City. Of course he seems to later say "anywhere in Mexico", but the point stands. 

LA and SF would have flown V-23..  San Fran is just W of Red Bluff and LA is actually E of Red Bluff.. they didn't have to stick on V-23. So, no reason to reject those Airports.

True, while there is no evidence for any particular LZ (initial) the evidence supports an initial LZ south of Cooper's jump.

I don't think your going to wing your LZ,, Cooper had an idea where he was going to jump when he stepped on the plane.

You don't get what I am saying.. Cooper boarded the plane with an LZ in mind.. when Reno was negotiated he decided to not be on the plane in Reno and jump ASAP.. he had a little trouble with the stairs and jumped a bit N of Portland.. He did not plan to jump where he did jump for two reasons,, he was delayed and he did not know where the plane was going to be. He knew it was headed south but it could have been 20 miles E or W. 

The copycats knew where they wanted to jump supports my argument.. Cooper knew where he wanted to jump UNTIL Reno was in play. Because he gave no directions doesn't mean he had no initial LZ..  He would have given directions later in the air. But he changed his plan to jump ASAP. He then wanted out right away and did't need to give directions, but was delayed...

He didn't say fly nonstop to Mexico City, he said we are flying to Mexico City but can refuel in Mexico only..  they had planned Mazatlan. If they were refuelling somewhere in Mexico then why did he say going to Mexico City..

The early 727 range isn't clear... there are 727 numbers from 1900-3400 miles.. It depends on the year, model and options..

This an early one similar to Norjak,, 3400 miles..  1200 miles to the Mexican border, not sure which Airport was the closest for a 727 in 1971.

https://www.museumofflight.org/exhibits-and-events/aircraft/boeing-727-022

Cooper believed the plane could make Mexico to refuel... or he wouldn't have made a demand that was impossible. Cooper had aviation experience so how could he get it so wrong.. He didn't.

I believe he initially wanted the plane to fly dirty when the stairs were lowered in flight by the stew.. not dirty the entire way... that comms between Cooper, Tina and crew weren't clear. The Reno negotiations changed this plan.

The plane would have easily made it to Mexico to refuel..  

 

 

My point was that everybody uses the take off with airstairs down to infer or speculate on his LZ...  Fact is, his first demand was airstairs lowered in flight and that should infer his initially planned LZ with other evidence.

Based on the totality of evidence I am 100% convinced Cooper initially when boarding the plane wanted to and planned to jump further south than he did.. that he changed his plan and wanted to jump ASAP.

Edited November 26, 2023 by FLYJACK

[georger 197]

3 hours ago, olemisscub said:

I do have a hard time with your theory that Cooper didn't have any idea of where he wanted to jump. All of the copycats at least had a rough estimation of where they wanted to jump. They all were planning to jump near where they felt they'd be safe. Mac was planning to jump within an hour (driving time) of Detroit, Hahneman jumped into Honduras, LaPoint was living in Denver at the time and jumped 90 miles north of Denver, and of course Heady and McCoy were jumping very close to their homes. 

 

Of course he had an idea of where he wanted to jump! He picked the right flight at the right time - in the right place. Moreover, there is no evidence he was an idiot who wanted to be caught! 

FJ isnt Cooper as much as pretends to speak for Cooper.

Edited November 26, 2023 by georger

[FLYJACK 654]

12 minutes ago, georger said:

Of course he had an idea of where he wanted to jump! He picked the right flight at the right time - in the right place. Moreover, there is no evidence he was an idiot who wanted to be caught! 

FJ isnt Cooper as much as pretends to speak for Cooper.

olemisscub misunderstood.. 

My theory is NOT that Cooper didn't have any idea where he wanted to jump...

Of course he did,, my theory is that he changed his plan when Reno was in play. That is supported by the demand change from initially airstairs down in flight to on take off...  

 

Cooper had no way of knowing where he would be when he did jump... he was delayed and the plane could have been 30 miles E or W... There is no way he jumped where he had planned prior.

Cooper's LZ was 100% ad hoc.