DB Cooper

[georger 197]

2 hours ago, JAGdb said:

I used to love pondering and theorizing about Tine Bar, but now it pretty much gives me a headache.  As mentioned many times, there are still too many unknowns to solve this riddle.  The diatom and now silt research perhaps helps slightly, but I wonder how much weight it really carries in terms of ruling in or out a possible scenario.

I liked where Galen Cook was purportedly going with this testing:

"My investigation into the D.B. Cooper mystery branches out into many areas of inquiry. Tina’s Bar is just part of my overall probe into the case, however it does hold some fascinating clues if one wants to conduct a deeper examination. Back in 2009, SA Larry Carr and I discussed the issue of the Brian Ingram find, particularily as it pertained to the decomposition of the $20 bills. Later that year, I associated with a particularily experienced scientist from Portland who agreed to come on board and work with me at the Tina Bar discovery site. We basically mapped the entire area into a scientific grid. We had the full support of the Fazio’s and unlimited access to their beachfront via their private drive.

Our experiments apparently caught the interest of the FBI. The Supervisory Agent in Seattle put me in direct contact with SA Curtis Eng. Then, the FBI released the “Palmer Report” to me. That report cited a most likely “arrival time” of the $20 packets at between 9 months and 12 months prior to discovery. Palmer’s specialization was “shoreline process,” which would allow a scientific examination of sedimentary deposits and the strata of the beach soils. A packet of bills found at a particular strata on the shoreline can be correlated to a specific period of time in which they “arrived.”

My goal was to try and simulate the money find, including the decomposition process, using various controls. We conducted our experiments both at Tina’s Bar and in the lab, and then replicated them more than twice in order to gain confidence in our experiments. The results of the experiments will be published at a later date."

But for whatever reason, he seems to have abandoned and lost interest.

I I recall Cook announced a 'reverse tide' or 'reverse flow' theory, Cook claimed the source of the money was the Lewis flowing back up the Columbia to Tena Bar. I called his scientist who abruptly said "I never said any such thing". Cook apparently decided to drop the whole thing. Cook also intimated there was Cooper money sitting in some bank vault in Canada?

The money horse has been beaten to death by too many experts and authors. Bury it!  You cant get blood out of a stone!

Edited November 22, 2023 by georger

[Chaucer 102]

What is the source document for Palmer and/or the FBI indicating that the bills had sediment/sand/silt consistent with the Columbia River on them?

[FLYJACK 654]

51 minutes ago, Chaucer said:

What is the source document for Palmer and/or the FBI indicating that the bills had sediment/sand/silt consistent with the Columbia River on them?

No soil, no clay found,,, only sand

In the FBI files, mineralogy was tested..

It is referred to in many places..

part 43 p 426/7

part 70 p174/5

part 70 p 193/4

 

In part 43

 

 

Edited November 22, 2023 by FLYJACK

[Chaucer 102]

So, what the heck is Tom talking about when he says the money didn't have any silt present on the bills and was immersed in clean water?

I'm so confused...

[olemisscub 466]

22 minutes ago, Chaucer said:

So, what the heck is Tom talking about when he says the money didn't have any silt present on the bills and was immersed in clean water?

I'm so confused...

“No soil”

Silt is a type of soil I believe 

[FLYJACK 654]

13 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

“No soil”

Silt is a type of soil I believe 

They were referring to burial in dirt elsewhere,,  they found sand no clay.. silt only refers to the particle size.

Edited November 22, 2023 by FLYJACK

[FLYJACK 654]

34 minutes ago, Chaucer said:

So, what the heck is Tom talking about when he says the money didn't have any silt present on the bills and was immersed in clean water?

I'm so confused...

The Columbia River has low levels of silt and the sand has silt...

So, what the silt is going on...

Did Tom mean low levels of silt or NO silt AT ALL..

[Chaucer 102]

1 hour ago, olemisscub said:

“No soil”

Silt is a type of soil I believe 

“Is consistent with having come from sediment which is deposited by the Columbia River”

If this isn’t a description of silt, I don’t know what is. 

[FLYJACK 654]

20 minutes ago, Chaucer said:

“Is consistent with having come from sediment which is deposited by the Columbia River”

If this isn’t a description of silt, I don’t know what is. 

Technically silt is very small particles,, like a powder or dust..  sediment may contain silt but doesn't necessarily.

So, what does Tom mean by silt??

Edited November 22, 2023 by FLYJACK

[georger 197]

1 hour ago, Chaucer said:

“Is consistent with having come from sediment which is deposited by the Columbia River”

If this isn’t a description of silt, I don’t know what is. 

Since you know so much about this, what serial numbered bills or fragments is Tom basing this silt study on and where in the 12 Ingram groups were they? 

[Chaucer 102]

8 minutes ago, georger said:

Since you know so much about this, what serial numbered bills or fragments is Tom basing this silt study on and where in the 12 Ingram groups were they? 

On the contrary, I don’t know anything about this. 
 

That’s why I am repeatedly expressing my befuddlement. 
 

I think you’re right though. We don’t have enough information from Tom to really draw any serious conclusions. 

[Robert99 37]

3 hours ago, olemisscub said:

“No soil”

Silt is a type of soil I believe 

Think rainwater.  As the joke goes, you can tell the difference between summer and winter in Oregon because the rain is warmer in the summer.

[Nicholas Broughton 53]

 

[georger 197]

7 hours ago, Chaucer said:

On the contrary, I don’t know anything about this. 
 

That’s why I am repeatedly expressing my befuddlement. 
 

I think you’re right though. We don’t have enough information from Tom to really draw any serious conclusions. 

Tom says the money didn't have any silt present on the bills and was immersed in clean water?

I would expect to find silt in slower currents, as are present on the inside channel at Cat Island, or in the slower water between Cat Island and the Fazio property. I would expect bottom spoils to contain silt, but what makeup?

We need Tom to define what he means by silt. However, I recall all too well going back years, Tom had no more than started to examine the bills and I emailed asking 'wassup?' and he replied: 'these bills are very clean - no silt - and very smooth surfaces', for whatever that's worth. So Tom is consistent. I will go back and look but I dont recall the word silt ever being mentioned in any FBI Lab report we have?

Pat never mentioned silt or silty, or that the money was covered with silt ....

Edited November 23, 2023 by georger

[FLYJACK 654]

Even the Columbia River sand has a small amount of silt... 

 

Brian did say the money was black,, was that mold or ???

[georger 197]

11 hours ago, Nicholas Broughton said:

 

Thanks for sharing this! 

 

Edited November 23, 2023 by georger

[FLYJACK 654]

59 minutes ago, georger said:

Thanks for sharing this! 

Tom's says his study results suggest that ... 'the positions of the bands on each bundle allowed the centers of the bundles to open up  thus exposing the centers of bills to diatoms'. (because bills fan out in water).

That cannot happen if there is a paper strap binding the centers of each packet! Only when the paper straps are gone on each packet, can the bills in each packet open up in the middle. The central areas of bills cannot be exposed to diatoms if the centers are closed by paper straps. The paper straps cannot dissolve until they are placed in water!

This sets a time limit on the bills being exposed to diatoms. It cannot happen especially in the middle, until the paper straps are gone be that 2 days, 1 month, 2 years, or 6 years!

Likewise, do paper straps and rubber bands leave isotopic evidence after they are removed from a porous surface like money cloth/paper? Tom says the rubber bands left no hint of their former presence on these bills ?

   

There is an area right of center with no diatoms,, that is where the paper band would be.. paper bands aren't always dead center. There is no other way to explain the lack of diatoms there.

[georger 197]

29 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

There is an area right of center with no diatoms,, that is where the paper band would be.. paper bands aren't always dead center. There is no other way to explain the lack of diatoms there.

Oh! Then correct Tom. He was specific when he said 'the center opens up and lets the diatoms in'.  

Now you are saying the center can open up even when banded with a paper strap? Damn those paper straps! They do whatever is required whenever required.  

Congrats. You win.

[FLYJACK 654]

3 minutes ago, georger said:

Oh! Then correct Tom. He was specific when he said 'the center opens up and lets the diatoms in'.  

Now you are saying the center can open up even when banded with a paper strap? Damn those paper straps! They do whatever is required whenever required.  

Congrats. You win.

Thanks,,

The opening up would be between the rubber bands near the outside and the paper band center right.

If the center was completely open that empty spot on the center right would have diatoms.. it doesn't. So, that must have been where the paper band was...

I can't think of any other explanation, can you.

 

 

[Nicholas Broughton 53]

Happy Thanksgiving to all my Cooperites! 

[FLYJACK 654]

54 minutes ago, Nicholas Broughton said:

Happy Thanksgiving to all my Cooperites! 

The smears may be from wiping prints in the plane or using the tie on the rear stair control to hide prints..

Aluminum Magnesium (5%) alloys are used in airplanes

Edited November 23, 2023 by FLYJACK

[Chaucer 102]

5000 series aluminum has numerous applications. The ones that most closely match the composition of the aluminum found on the tie appear to be more related to marine applications such as shipbuilding. 

Here's the breakdown. Tom says to ignore the nickel because it is likely a contaminant. Obviously, there are ranges for element amounts. 

Aluminum 94.52

Magnesium 4.73

Iron 0.25

Silicon 0.23

Nickel 0.19

Chromium 0.06

Manganese 0.03

Some of the closest matches are 5019, 5056, 5059, 5082, 5083, 5182, 5356, and 5456. I'm sure there are more. Some of these didn't exist in 1971.

[Chaucer 102]

In speaking with Tom, he says it's certainly possible that the cloth bank bag could act as a "filter" for the diatoms, especially the larger ones like Asterionella.

Something to consider when discussing the money find. 

[FLYJACK 654]

Today's secret word is..

 

 

 

Magnalium

[Chaucer 102]

21 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

Today's secret word is..

 

 

 

Magnalium

Good catch. 
 

Magnalium is used in pyrotechnics as a bright, yellow color. 
 

Obviously, an inordinate amount of particles on the tie are connected to fireworks, flares, safety, matches, etc. 

Recently, TK said that the pure titanium may actually be titanium oxide found in matches in which the oxygen burned away during combustion. 
 

Wouldn’t surprise me if almost all of the particles were somehow related to handling the flares or smoking cigarettes.