DB Cooper

[JAGdb 71]

Good to hear from Bruce again:

https://themountainnewswa.net/2023/11/20/coopercon-23-delivers-new-information-and-good-times-to-db-cooper-world/

[olemisscub 466]

Really amazing photo. McNally and Bill Mitchell. The two interacted frequently over the weekend and Bill seemed captivated during Marty's talk. During his own talk, Bill was talking about how it wasn't a victimless crime and got choked up a bit when he pointed to Marty and said something like "look how Cooper derailed Mac's entire life."

 

Edited November 21, 2023 by olemisscub

[georger 197]

5 hours ago, olemisscub said:

Money bundles sink. Thus, for a flood to be the culprit for how the bundle arrived at TB, the bundle would have to be pushed there along with debris churned up by flood water. There would be silt on the bills if it came in contact with flood water. That is “dirty water.” If, for example, someone just dunked the money in the Columbia and then threw it in a hole, there would not be any significant amount of silt in that water. That would be “clean water.”

As obnoxious as the “someone planted it there” theory is, Kaye’s latest analysis actually tends to support that. 

Presumably if the bundle was part of dredge spoils it would also have “dirty water”

Well that is theoretical. Dirty water is meaningless vs a specific list of elements, but that is not even guaranteed. Let's say for example bottom spoils are rich in 'Goatium'. If money was rich in Goatium then could one conclude the money came up with the Goatium? Not necessarily. You see water flows north and DOWN HILL at TBar. Since the money was found north of the northmost Goatium pile, and since water flows north, then sooner or later the money is probably going to be contaminated with Gotium, whether it came up with the Goatium or not.

Since Tom hasnt published anything I dont know what Tom is talking about.

Tom aside, in point of fact a USGS chemist revealed years ago that the bottom spoils mentioned in the Bechly doc did have a specific elemental signature. They were rich in certain elements. But once placed on Tena Bar the whole area becomes contaminated and you would expect the Cooper money buried north of the dredge spoils area to show that contamination, which it apparently does! So dirty water vs clean water aside, elemental profiles do have meaning, ...

 

Edited November 21, 2023 by georger

[georger 197]

8 hours ago, JAGdb said:

Good to hear from Bruce again:

https://themountainnewswa.net/2023/11/20/coopercon-23-delivers-new-information-and-good-times-to-db-cooper-world/

Thanks!  Once again Smith saves the day . . .

Question: did anyone ever reconstruct the Ingram find by serial numbers, so Tom can know where the bills he is working with were in the bundles or packets, the Ingrams retrieved?  Surface, middle, bottom ...  (whichever word you are addicted to)  

WSHM may not trust Kaye or any outsiders. WSHM may want to run their own tests with their own people ? Its a territorial thing .... which only complicates everything!  Maybe they would chose Meltzer to do dna sampling ?   

Edited November 21, 2023 by georger

[JAGdb 71]

This would have been nice to have been able to do:

"In addition, Tom Kaye claimed that he has asked the WSHM if he can apply sticky stubs to the fabric of the parachute’s container to ascertain if any of the mysterious particles on the tie came from the engine exhaust of Flight 305 – which might have blown back into the cabin area when the stairs were lowered. However, the museum has refused his request."

It's a shame that the WSHM won't cooperate on this or any other inquires regarding the chute.

[georger 197]

14 minutes ago, JAGdb said:

This would have been nice to have been able to do:

"In addition, Tom Kaye claimed that he has asked the WSHM if he can apply sticky stubs to the fabric of the parachute’s container to ascertain if any of the mysterious particles on the tie came from the engine exhaust of Flight 305 – which might have blown back into the cabin area when the stairs were lowered. However, the museum has refused his request."

It's a shame that the WSHM won't cooperate on this or any other inquires regarding the chute.

Not unexpected.  They want to be in control of all facets of whatever is in their purview to be in control of -  imho of course. I sensed that years ago when I tried to have simple conversation with them about _ _ _ _ _   now if you gave them $1mil as a donation maybe they would open up ?  They may cite rules they must follow which precludes Jack vs Mary, or ten fingered vs 7 fingered, or nobody over 5'7" , and the like ?  Libraries can be quirky as hell unless it is them wanting something ..................  and there is likely a political component or two or twenty @

I shouldnt say these things.

Edited November 21, 2023 by georger

[FLYJACK 654]

10 hours ago, olemisscub said:

Really amazing photo. McNally and Bill Mitchell. The two interacted frequently over the weekend and Bill seemed captivated during Marty's talk. During his own talk, Bill was talking about how it wasn't a victimless crime and got choked up a bit when he pointed to Marty and said something like "look how Cooper derailed Mac's entire life."

 

Yes,, cool pic but Mac was NOT a victim.. nobody made him do his hijacking and if not a hijacking he would have done something else like a bank robbery.

[olemisscub 466]

32 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

Yes,, cool pic but Mac was NOT a victim.. nobody made him do his hijacking and if not a hijacking he would have done something else like a bank robbery.

Correct. Bill didn’t understand Mac’s background at the time. During my copycats talk the previous day, which Bill saw, I mostly skipped over Mac, for obvious reasons. So Bill probably assumed due to Mac’s age that he was one of the Vietnam copycats like LaPoint, Heady, Goodell, or McCoy. 

So I made sure to ask him at the start of our interview (already knew the answer of course) whether he was a felon at the time, which he was. He had a prior felony for burglary. At the time he decided to do the skyjacking he was scouting out the routes on several Brinks trunks. As I’ve said numerous times, he’s the only one of my canonical six copycats who was a legitimate criminal. He was essentially just a bank robber who thought this could be a good score.

Mac also made sure to point out that his own hijacking was not victimless. Two of the stewardesses claim to still have nightmares from it. Humans are so very different from one another with how they handle things because his “Tina”, Sharon, is good friends with him now. They were texting each other this weekend and he was sending her pictures.

[olemisscub 466]

Another great pic. Bill Grinnell reunited with some of the loot he carried in his lap. 

[olemisscub 466]

Video I took of McNally reuniting with a 727 for the first time. The audio improves after about 20 seconds. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DQ7T7ioES_8

[Chaucer 103]

On 11/18/2023 at 10:23 AM, olemisscub said:

I’m blocking Slim King. If you’ll block him as well give this post a like.

Been blocked for months.

[Chaucer 103]

Catching up on a lot of pages. Pardon me for repeating ideas that have already been shared:

First, in discussions with my hydrologist, debris that begins its journey on one side of a river will end up on the same side. As you get farther away from the riverbank, that percent chance changes obviously. One would assume a piece of debris that begins its journey in the very center of a river would have a 50% chance of ending up on either side. Again, multiple variable that are impossible to account for.

In addition, he stated quite clearly, and others have confirmed, that a piece of debris could enter the Columbia near Marine Park, for example, and end up on Tena Bar. Again, his specialty is tracking river debris on the Lower Columbia. The idea that anything entering the Columbia near Vancouver would only end up on Sauvie Island is nonsense.

Glad Tom's research confirmed what I (and others) have been saying for years) the three packets arrived together as one rubber-banded bundle. How it arrived there is another story. I long believed it was due to arrival by flood waters via river debris (branch, log, etc). Tom's analysis now indicates immersion in water without silt which seems to point away from burial in flood sediment. The mind reels.

A friend of mine and fellow researcher had an interesting thought. If the money bag remained intact until Tena Bar, could the cloth act as a sort of "filter" preventing winter diatoms from penetrating? Then through deterioration, the money bundle enters the water at TB in the spring exposing it to spring diatoms.

Lastly, Tom and I spoke at CC and we calculated that Tena Bar experiences approximately 1.25 inches of erosion each year. Thus, the beach would lose about a foot of sand between 1972 and 1980 and about 9 inches between 1974 (last dredge spoils) and 1980. We concluded it was likely that the money was originally buried under a small amount of sand originally and later had more sand covering it until enough eroded for Bryan to expose it with a sweep of his arm. 

My thoughts for the day...

Edited November 22, 2023 by Chaucer

[Benfold 0]

I asked this elsewhere but looking to see if anyone can answer...

How long was the "Tena Bar Members Only" sign up on the site?

Did the FBI contact any "members" who paid the Fazios to have access to the beach after the money find?

[georger 197]

So... has Grinnel finally said in unimpeachable terms, he saw the packaged money in the bag or not?

If he didn't then what is his deep value to the Cooper case?

 

[Chaucer 103]

13 minutes ago, georger said:

So... has Grinnel finally said in unimpeachable terms, he saw the packaged money in the bag or not?

If he didn't then what is his deep value to the Cooper case?

 

I don't think anyone is saying he had "deep value" to the case. But he was the gentleman who delivered the the money from the bank to the airport, so he is certainly an interesting part of the story IMO. 

FWIW, his description of how bank's "typically" package money, and how Tom Kaye's research indicated the TB money was packaged matched perfectly. 

[georger 197]

31 minutes ago, Chaucer said:

Catching up on a lot of pages. Pardon me for repeating ideas that have already been shared:

First, in discussions with my hydrologist, debris that begins its journey on one side of a river will end up on the same side. As you get farther away from the riverbank, that percent chance changes obviously. One would assume a piece of debris that begins its journey in the very center of a river would have a 50% chance of ending up on either side. Again, multiple variable that are impossible to account for.

Glad Tom's research confirmed what I (and others) have been saying for years) the three packets arrived together as one rubber-banded bundle. How it arrived there is another story. I long believed it was due to arrival by flood waters via river debris (branch, log, etc). Tom's analysis now indicates immersion in water without silt which seems to point away from burial in flood sediment. The mind reels.

A friend of mine and fellow researcher had an interesting thought. If the money bag remained intact until Tena Bar, could the cloth act as a sort of "filter" preventing winter diatoms from penetrating? Then through deterioration, the money bundle enters the water at TB in the spring exposing it to spring diatoms.

Lastly, Tom and I spoke at CC and we calculated that Tena Bar experiences approximately 1.25 inches of erosion each year. Thus, the beach would lose about a foot of sand between 1972 and 1980 and about 9 inches between 1974 (last dredge spoils) and 1980. We concluded it was likely that the money was originally buried under a small amount of sand originally and later had more sand covering it until enough eroded for Bryan to expose it with a sweep of his arm. 

My thoughts for the day...

Well .....  any real hydrologist would point out that water (a liquid) can only be compressed so far. The cavity at Caterpillar Island requires that higher pressure water in the main channel spread out, flow, into that cavity! Duhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.   That is your entry point for debris entering the Fazio property.  Nothing is required to flow across the river in some magical feat of gymnastics. All that is required is for water to be water flowing north in the Columbia obeying the basic laws of physics!  This aint rocket science for Christ's sake.    

The current is strong and the volume large. That massive volume of pressurized water is just looking for a place to escape and the cavity at Cat Isle provides that .......... flowing being dragged north right up over the Fazio property.  The erosion is historically documented in USGS photos  - in the 50s the Fazio property barely existed.  Its existence through the years has been dependent on dredging spoils building the Fazio bank back up time after time.  

Edited November 22, 2023 by georger

[georger 197]

1 minute ago, Chaucer said:

I don't think anyone is saying he had "deep value" to the case. But he was the gentleman who delivered the the money from the bank to the airport, so he is certainly an interesting part of the story IMO. 

FWIW, his description of how bank's "typically" package money, and how Tom Kaye's research indicated the TB money was packaged matched perfectly. 

I dont give a daMN ABOUT WHAT BANKS TYPICALLY DO .................   I care about how the Cooper money was packaged and who saw it!

[Chaucer 103]

4 minutes ago, georger said:

I dont give a daMN ABOUT WHAT BANKS TYPICALLY DO .................   I care about how the Cooper money was packaged and who saw it!

Regardless of Grinnell's experience, Tom's analysis answered this question:

Obviously, you're welcome disagree with Tom's conclusions, but they confirm what Grinnell (a long time bank employee) said was standard operating procedure for packaging money.

[georger 197]

14 minutes ago, Chaucer said:

Regardless of Grinnell's experience, Tom's analysis answered this question:

Obviously, you're welcome disagree with Tom's conclusions, but they confirm what Grinnell (a long time bank employee) said was standard operating procedure for packaging money.

What analysis ?

[Chaucer 103]

7 minutes ago, georger said:

What analysis ?

Sorry, the link I posted doesn't appear to be working. 

Maybe someone else can post Tom's presentation at CooperCon this year on "Forensic Bandology".

I won't try to summarize his findings because it won't do his actual presentation justice.

Edited November 22, 2023 by Chaucer

[Nicholas Broughton 53]

34 minutes ago, Chaucer said:

Sorry, the link I posted doesn't appear to be working. 

Maybe someone else can post Tom's presentation at CooperCon this year on "Forensic Bandology".

I won't try to summarize his findings because it won't do his actual presentation justice.

I’ll have it up on my YouTube soon along with most of the other presentations from the conference. I’ll post the links In here. 

Edited November 22, 2023 by Nicholas Broughton

[Chaucer 103]

On 11/20/2023 at 8:37 PM, FLYJACK said:

You created a false binary..

These are two independent things... the money entering the River and the money landing on TBAR.

Tom's research suggests the money did not arrive during a flood or dredge.. lack of silt. Sounds reasonable.

However, you don't need a flood for the money to go into the River and you don't need a flood for the money to reach the find spot due to water level. The money spot is well below flood stage.

 

Flotsam OR Jetsam...

Flotsam is debri unintentionally or accidentally introduced into the water...

Jetsam is debri intentionally introduced into the water...

I have a theory for each... neither requires a flood.

 

Sure. It could have gotten there naturally without a flood. 
 

The question becomes burial. How can it be buried under sand/silt in calm, clear water?

[georger 197]

1 hour ago, Chaucer said:

Sure. It could have gotten there naturally without a flood. 
 

The question becomes burial. How can it be buried under sand/silt in calm, clear water?

well,  dredging can deliver and bury all at the same time. So could a flood but less certain.  The key is nobody sees it.  If buried via dredging spoils it would require how many years to surface by erosion? I mean Tom estimated yearly erosion? Yes? I dont know what is so difficult about this.  The fact is Cooper money was found on Tena Bar and got to that unique location somehow. There has to be an ordinary explanation.  There is nothing in the whole Cooper case to make it exotic, special, or extraordinary outside the laws of normality except some people continual claiming special conditions and occurrences!  The laws of normal distribution are in play . . .  

 

Edited November 22, 2023 by georger

[FLYJACK 654]

42 minutes ago, Chaucer said:

Sure. It could have gotten there naturally without a flood. 
 

The question becomes burial. How can it be buried under sand/silt in calm, clear water?

There are so many variables that we don't know.

The money was found at about the high water mark.. it was well below the flood stage. The money was found in a layer with "fresh" debris. 

 

Clearly, objects do sink in sand.. tidal action, ship wakes, nearby erosion,,  how would that affect the money??  How can we determine that. Was there more debris dumped there beyond the 1974 dredge..

If we assume the money went into the River in a Spring when the River was above the find spot but below flood stage and it gets deposited on TBAR then burial may have been a natural process...

One thing I'd like to know is what a bundle of money does in the River with 3 mph current does after it sinks..  does it remain suspended above the bottom and get pushed??  I found that a corpse gets moved on a sand/gravel bottom with 1.35 mph current.

 

I am now leaning toward the money arriving within a year or so of the find... for it to have been there and buried since 71/72 with all the erosion and found in a "fresh" layer... is hard to makes sense of.

[FLYJACK 654]

8 minutes ago, georger said:

well,  dredging can deliver and bury all at the same time. So could a flood but less certain.  The key is nobody sees it.  If buried via dredging spoils it would require how many years to surface by erosion? I mean Tom estimated yearly erosion? Yes? I dont know what is so difficult about this.  The fact is Cooper money was found on Tena Bar and got to that unique location somehow. There has to be an ordinary explanation.  There is nothing in the whole Cooper case to make it exotic, special, or extraordinary outside the laws of normality except some people continual claiming special conditions and occurrences!  The laws of normal distribution are in play . . .  

 

Dredge would cause silt.

Suction and pipe dredge is dead.