DB Cooper

[georger 194]

2 hours ago, Robert99 said:

Georger, you are doing the "dodging and weaving".

Do you finally understand why water runs downhill?

 

Edited December 2, 2023 by georger

[georger 194]

18 hours ago, georger said:

 

Georger, you are doing the "dodging and weaving".

Do you finally understand why water runs downhill?

 

still processing .... 4906978 years to go!

Edited December 2, 2023 by georger

[olemisscub 463]

At CooperCon, I met a woman there who was working as an like a historic interpreter at the Museum of Flight. She had been a NWA flight attendant for forty years. She worked for NWO specifically during the 60's and 70's. She knew everyone involved and worked a good bit with both Alice and Tina. I asked her some Coopery questions and these were the answers. 

- How often did you load or unloaded passengers from the rear stairs of a 727? She said even when they came to an airport without a jetway they'd often just use the airstairs on a truck. 

- Would a pilot have known how to lower the rear stairs? She thought about it for a minute and said something like "well, all they'd need to do is read the panel instructions, but I don't think any of them would have ever done that before. That was something we always did if we ever lowered them at all."

- If a passenger ordered a bourbon and a soda, did you mix the drink for them or did you give them a soda and an airplane bottle of bourbon? She said the stews would mix the drinks for the passengers. 

- At the time of Cooper, a mixed drink was $1 and a soda was .25 on the menu. Was a bourbon and soda $1 or $1.25. She said it was $1. 

- Did you take any tickets or anything when passengers boarded? She said during boarding they would look at the ticket as each passenger boarded. 

- If you were working in the rear cabin of a 727, where would you have placed your purse? She said there were these little compartments behind the rear row of seats that they could open up and store some gear in. I asked her this to figure out how where Flo's purse would have been when she retrieved it...just to see how awkward that interaction would have been.

and finally the most interesting one to me...

- Did you know Kenny Christiansen? She said she knew Kenny very well and everyone enjoyed working with him. She said that immediately after the hijacking they began to joke about Kenny due to the sketch. She said it was a bit of a running joke with NWO cabin and flight crew for a while that he was Cooper and so she was shocked when all the stuff about him first came out in 2008 or whenever it was. Said she was basically thinking: "They cannot be serious. This was just our NWO inside joke!" 

- I asked her if an employee like Kenny could have hijacked an NWO plane and gone unnoticed. She said it would beggar belief for that to have occurred without the employee being recognized. She said NWO was a small group back then and all the employees knew each other. She felt that at least one of the three stewardesses would have worked with him at some point by Nov 71. 

My takeaway from the conversation I had with her about Kenny is that I think her comments might explain the existence of that "Coopery photo" of Kenny. I bet it was just a gag photo he took to use for joking around with his friends at the airline. 

Edited December 4, 2023 by olemisscub

[ParrotheadVol 70]

43 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

My takeaway from the conversation I had with her about Kenny is that I think her comments might explain the existence of that "Coopery photo" of Kenny. I bet it was just a gag photo he took to use for joking around with his friends at the airline. 

If Kenny actually wore a trench coat and carried a brief case, then I don't think there's anything about that photo that is "Coopery".

Your post ALMOST makes me wish Blevins was still allowed here. I'd love to hear how he spun that conversation, and we all know he would have.

[dudeman17 267]

5 hours ago, olemisscub said:

Would a pilot have known how to lower the rear stairs?

Any pilot worth their salt would know how to operate anything on any aircraft they're rated to fly. The doors would be a given.

[georger 194]

11 hours ago, olemisscub said:

At CooperCon, I met a woman there who was working as an like a historic interpreter at the Museum of Flight. She had been a NWA flight attendant for forty years. She worked for NWO specifically during the 60's and 70's. She knew everyone involved and worked a good bit with both Alice and Tina. I asked her some Coopery questions and these were the answers. 

- How often did you load or unloaded passengers from the rear stairs of a 727? She said even when they came to an airport without a jetway they'd often just use the airstairs on a truck. 

- Would a pilot have known how to lower the rear stairs? She thought about it for a minute and said something like "well, all they'd need to do is read the panel instructions, but I don't think any of them would have ever done that before. That was something we always did if we ever lowered them at all."

- If a passenger ordered a bourbon and a soda, did you mix the drink for them or did you give them a soda and an airplane bottle of bourbon? She said the stews would mix the drinks for the passengers. 

- At the time of Cooper, a mixed drink was $1 and a soda was .25 on the menu. Was a bourbon and soda $1 or $1.25. She said it was $1. 

- Did you take any tickets or anything when passengers boarded? She said during boarding they would look at the ticket as each passenger boarded. 

- If you were working in the rear cabin of a 727, where would you have placed your purse? She said there were these little compartments behind the rear row of seats that they could open up and store some gear in. I asked her this to figure out how where Flo's purse would have been when she retrieved it...just to see how awkward that interaction would have been.

and finally the most interesting one to me...

- Did you know Kenny Christiansen? She said she knew Kenny very well and everyone enjoyed working with him. She said that immediately after the hijacking they began to joke about Kenny due to the sketch. She said it was a bit of a running joke with NWO cabin and flight crew for a while that he was Cooper and so she was shocked when all the stuff about him first came out in 2008 or whenever it was. Said she was basically thinking: "They cannot be serious. This was just our NWO inside joke!" 

- I asked her if an employee like Kenny could have hijacked an NWO plane and gone unnoticed. She said it would beggar belief for that to have occurred without the employee being recognized. She said NWO was a small group back then and all the employees knew each other. She felt that at least one of the three stewardesses would have worked with him at some point by Nov 71. 

My takeaway from the conversation I had with her about Kenny is that I think her comments might explain the existence of that "Coopery photo" of Kenny. I bet it was just a gag photo he took to use for joking around with his friends at the airline. 

You could have asked her if she thought the stews (Tina, Flo, Hancock) would have been able to identify the passenger?

Edited December 4, 2023 by georger

[olemisscub 463]

10 hours ago, dudeman17 said:

Any pilot worth their salt would know how to operate anything on any aircraft they're rated to fly. The doors would be a given.

Yes, of course. I asked the question just to get some clarity on something strange I'd heard while researching a 727 pilot. I came across someone's previous research where they had talked to two 727 pilots from the era and both said they had never once touched the mechanism for lowering the aft stairs of a 727 and would have had to look at the instructions panel to figure it out. That seemed preposterous to me, so I wanted to ask. 

[Robert99 37]

1 hour ago, olemisscub said:

Yes, of course. I asked the question just to get some clarity on something strange I'd heard while researching a 727 pilot. I came across someone's previous research where they had talked to two 727 pilots from the era and both said they had never once touched the mechanism for lowering the aft stairs of a 727 and would have had to look at the instructions panel to figure it out. That seemed preposterous to me, so I wanted to ask. 

Perhaps the pilots had never actually lowered the aft stairs, but they would surely have been informed how to do so in the ground school for their 727 checkout.

[olemisscub 463]

I just realized something the other day. I don't think we have "Cary" if Farrell hadn't gotten some dates mixed up. In August 72 when they finally got fed up with all of the young suspects coming in due to Bing's youthful appearance, Farrell wanted to have a new color sketch made that reflected the hijacker's age and his skin tone. While in the process of developing this lead, he came across Flo's statement dated Dec 2, 71 where she dismisses the sketch and says KK5-1 closely resembled the hijacker. Due to the date, he assumed that she was talking about one of the Bing sketches (from 11-27 and 11-30). However, that Dec 2nd document is actually referring to her statements she made on 11-25 about the initial sketch. In reality, Flo apparently had no problem with Bing, saying that she "likes the drawing very much." 

So Farrell, assuming that Flo was talking about hating Bing, seemingly wanted a complete overhaul done using KK5-1 as a foundation. My guess is that had Farrell realized she was talking about the initial sketch, we probably don't have the Cary sketch. I think they'd have just gone the easier route and just put Bing in color and aged him up another 10-15 years from how he originally looked. 

The sketches are really a fascinating study into witness psychology. Bing and Cary are essentially two different human beings yet all of the witnesses liked both. None of them hated Bing and none of them hated Cary. Interesting. 

[georger 194]

39 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

I just realized something the other day. I don't think we have "Cary" if Farrell hadn't gotten some dates mixed up. In August 72 when they finally got fed up with all of the young suspects coming in due to Bing's youthful appearance, Farrell wanted to have a new color sketch made that reflected the hijacker's age and his skin tone. While in the process of developing this lead, he came across Flo's statement dated Dec 2, 71 where she dismisses the sketch and says KK5-1 closely resembled the hijacker. Due to the date, he assumed that she was talking about one of the Bing sketches (from 11-27 and 11-30). However, that Dec 2nd document is actually referring to her statements she made on 11-25 about the initial sketch. In reality, Flo apparently had no problem with Bing, saying that she "likes the drawing very much." 

So Farrell, assuming that Flo was talking about hating Bing, seemingly wanted a complete overhaul done using KK5-1 as a foundation. My guess is that had Farrell realized she was talking about the initial sketch, we probably don't have the Cary sketch. I think they'd have just gone the easier route and just put Bing in color and aged him up another 10-15 years from how he originally looked. 

The sketches are really a fascinating study into witness psychology. Bing and Cary are essentially two different human beings yet all of the witnesses liked both. None of them hated Bing and none of them hated Cary. Interesting. 

This changes everything!

[FLYJACK 654]

1 hour ago, olemisscub said:

I just realized something the other day. I don't think we have "Cary" if Farrell hadn't gotten some dates mixed up. In August 72 when they finally got fed up with all of the young suspects coming in due to Bing's youthful appearance, Farrell wanted to have a new color sketch made that reflected the hijacker's age and his skin tone. While in the process of developing this lead, he came across Flo's statement dated Dec 2, 71 where she dismisses the sketch and says KK5-1 closely resembled the hijacker. Due to the date, he assumed that she was talking about one of the Bing sketches (from 11-27 and 11-30). However, that Dec 2nd document is actually referring to her statements she made on 11-25 about the initial sketch. In reality, Flo apparently had no problem with Bing, saying that she "likes the drawing very much." 

So Farrell, assuming that Flo was talking about hating Bing, seemingly wanted a complete overhaul done using KK5-1 as a foundation. My guess is that had Farrell realized she was talking about the initial sketch, we probably don't have the Cary sketch. I think they'd have just gone the easier route and just put Bing in color and aged him up another 10-15 years from how he originally looked. 

The sketches are really a fascinating study into witness psychology. Bing and Cary are essentially two different human beings yet all of the witnesses liked both. None of them hated Bing and none of them hated Cary. Interesting. 

In the Unsolved Mysteries episode Flo said the composite never really looked like him.

The hair does not.. the face does not..

 

So, confidence in the sketch is sketchy...

Cooper was unmemorable.

 

 

[olemisscub 463]

2 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

In the Unsolved Mysteries episode Flo said the composite never really looked like him.

 

Indeed. I guess she forgot that she liked all of the sketches when they came out except for the initial sketch. She also says in that episode that she can still see his face vividly despite telling the FBI in 1976 that she had completely lost what he actually looked like in her mind. 

[FLYJACK 654]

4 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

Indeed. I guess she forgot that she liked all of the sketches when they came out except for the initial sketch. She also says in that episode that she can still see his face vividly despite telling the FBI in 1976 that she had completely lost what he actually looked like in her mind. 

and when Tina described Cooper's face for the Bing sketch then later claimed she never saw his face straight on...

What does that indicate??

[olemisscub 463]

Nothing new in latest Vault except that this would be cool to see

[georger 194]

44 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

and when Tina described Cooper's face for the Bing sketch then later claimed she never saw his face straight on...

What does that indicate??

It "indicates" people change their "comments" over time when talking to different people in different settings. Exactly what you would expect. Original impressions immediately after an event are usually the best ie most reliable? People alter their stories over time. 

You always want perfection. That is seldom how people are over time. Likewise, people being interviewed are sometimes lead to stray or change their stories = the power of the interviewer. Like some guy implying he could feel how the money was wrapped by how it it allegedly felt in his groin?  That is pure Blevens crap.   

Edited December 4, 2023 by georger

[FLYJACK 654]

21 minutes ago, georger said:

It "indicates" people change their "comments" over time when talking to different people in different settings. Exactly what you would expect. Original impressions immediately after an event are usually the best ie most reliable? People alter their stories over time. 

You always want perfection. That is seldom how people are over time. Likewise, people being interviewed are sometimes lead to stray or change their stories = the power of the interviewer. Like some guy implying he could feel how the money was wrapped by how it it allegedly felt in his groin?  That is pure Blevens crap.   

Nope..  wrong answer

 

[dudeman17 267]

8 hours ago, olemisscub said:

I came across someone's previous research where they had talked to two 727 pilots from the era and both said they had never once touched the mechanism for lowering the aft stairs of a 727 and would have had to look at the instructions panel to figure it out. That seemed preposterous to me...

That does seem odd. In normal operations, it would fall on somebody else to open and close it for boarding, and even in an emergency landing situation where they'd need emergency egress, the stews would likely get to it first. But as R99 said, they'd surely be briefed on it, and most of them would likely do a walk-through and get familiar with everything like that. Maybe over time and routine they'd sort of forget about it, but a lot of pilots pride themselves on authority and control, and would keep up on all potential emergency procedures.

[georger 194]

4 hours ago, dudeman17 said:

That does seem odd. In normal operations, it would fall on somebody else to open and close it for boarding, and even in an emergency landing situation where they'd need emergency egress, the stews would likely get to it first. But as R99 said, they'd surely be briefed on it, and most of them would likely do a walk-through and get familiar with everything like that. Maybe over time and routine they'd sort of forget about it, but a lot of pilots pride themselves on authority and control, and would keep up on all potential emergency procedures.

Nope..  wrong answer

[georger 194]

4 hours ago, georger said:

Nope..  wrong answer

Thank you, sir. Laughing .........................   take care.

[Robert99 37]

8 hours ago, georger said:

Thank you, sir. Laughing .........................   take care.

Georger, are you talking to yourself again?

[olemisscub 463]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u9T_MDj9lgY

Edited December 6, 2023 by olemisscub

[FLYJACK 654]

32 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u9T_MDj9lgY

I watched it,,, overall good job, I disagree on a few points..

Sketch B is the most accurate. If Farrell got the date/image wrong it is irrelevant.

It is LIZ - KNEE not LIN ZEE and HA NA MAN not HIGH NA MAN

IMO, Tina did see Cooper's face.. she was being deceptive about not seeing his face.

It wasn't only Cooper's complexion that was described as latin.. features were also.

The FBI used 5' 8" as min height but on occasion went under that for a compelling suspect. 

I think the "yellow" map may be a colour print of the original from Boeing, 

Could this be referring to the original map.. the lamination has turned yellow and if it is a print (from above FBI file) the original marker may have been "dark" green. If not what map is this??

 

 

Edited December 6, 2023 by FLYJACK

[FLYJACK 654]

Flo later said the sketch didn't really look like him..

and so did Hal Williams..  never did look just like him (He may be referring to sketch A?)

https://www.upi.com/Archives/1981/11/25/All-in-black-during-the-day-of-polyesters-and-plaids/3918375512400/

[FLYJACK 654]

Sketch A is no good.. it was bad from the get go and threw off the case tainting the public with a bad image.. even the very first sketch is closer to sketch B.

It doesn't even look human. The nose is far too small, toss that out,, the hair is wrong, toss that, the lips were criticized and changed, the eyes are unreliable as he wore sunglasses most of the time. Take out those things and not much left.

FBI, Sketch B best likeness.

Sketch B more accurate..

 

Stews.. B better.

[olemisscub 463]

54 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

Sketch A is no good.. it was bad from the get go and threw off the case tainting the public with a bad image.. even the very first sketch is closer to sketch B.

It doesn't even look human. The nose is far too small, toss that out,, the hair is wrong, toss that, the lips were criticized and changed, the eyes are unreliable as he wore sunglasses most of the time. Take out those things and not much left.

FBI, Sketch B best likeness.

Sketch B more accurate..

Stews.. B better.

Here's my issue with it...As I explained last night, if I have an eyewitness making two statements that contradict each other, I'm going to err on the side of their statement that was made closer to the event. Absent some evidence to explain why they changed their statement, any solid investigator is going to assume that the statement made closer to the event is likely the more accurate version of the incident. I don't see why their opinions on the sketches should be treated differently. 

Yes, we have statements where they like Comp B, but most of those statements are almost a year or even over a year later. Their statements where they like Comp A were made within days of the hijacking. Tina said Comp A (with sunglasses) looked "100% like him", Alice said it was a fair likeness and couldn't offer any criticism, and Flo said she "liked the drawing very much". 

As I indicated, this isn't so much about hating on Comp B, but moreso about finding redeeming qualities with Comp A. I've made it very clear that I'm essentially a "Comp B" guy. However, clearly Comp A got something right otherwise they wouldn't have said such positive things about it. That's why I think a hybrid version of the two sketches is probably as close to accurate as you can get. When you look at guys like Donald Murphy, Allen Cooper, or Fred Catalano, they all look somewhat similar to my hybrid sketch. 

Additionally, my entire reason for even bringing this up is mostly academic. I doubt we have Cary if Farrell realized that she was talking about the initial sketch. I think we just have some sort of aged-up and modified Bing instead of the complete overhaul that took place. I find that to be interesting from a "case-history" standpoint.