mrshutter45 21 #40151 May 15, 2013 RobertMBlevins***ok Robert, take a look at the document I have provided and tell me where the problems are and why. these are from transcripts and words from Ckret reading what Bill R said in 1971 and finally what Bill said in the article you showed. Sounds like one entry of the transcript was an add-on. The typist added in an additional message from the crew. Now...in articles written about the event, those time estimates might have been written up by the reporters. Rataczak has been interviewed many times, and it seems natural over the years that he might tell reporters rounded-off figures. For example, saying 7:45 for an entry, when in reality the event happened at 7:43. The only trustworthy record would be the transcript, in my opinion. But the time stamps are also tricky because there would be some delay between the crew's actual radio contact and the time the typist enters the information. Sounds as if the 8:10 entry was the add-on somehow. Maybe the typist is trying to narrow down the time the crew actually reported the stairs were causing an occillation. It is difficult to decipher. I don't know. Four or five minutes, twelve to fifteen miles, that's a lot of search area. It's possible that Cooper jumped a bit further south than the Lake Merwin area, but that begs one point and another question: If the people working on the jump point had access to the transcript and saw these things, and were speaking to the crew, (during and after the flight) how did they decide to pick the search area that they did? See...this is a question for the FBI I think. Or the people who decided the search area from the data. Douggarr says in part: Quote'http://woodinville.patch.com/groups/police-and-fire/p/homicide-victim-identified-as-earl-cossey-of-woodinville This just posted on FB. We know that Earl was murdered. We don't know anything beyond this fact. The article did not say whether anything in the house was missing, which would indicate a robbery. So we can speculate all we want. No suspects apparently. I'll bet you are the same Doug who doesn't like the idea of rebuilding the school building in Woodinville. I'm with you on this. They should just hire more cops and stop being so secretive on some of the information regarding Cossey. The Woodinville police chief classified it as a burglary at the last City Council meeting but would give no other details. My opinion is that people in Cossey's neighborhood might appreciate knowing whether or not there is a burglar in the neighborhood who has now graduated to murder. I hope they find Cossey's killer soon. I mixed two different transcripts. now, as you read this it can get very confusing fast if you don't know what is going on or if you are reading the right transcript. I learned this very early on from people you argue with on this thread. I don't argue with them, I learn from them.... Rataczak claimed 10-15 minutes after the oscillation, but the transcript said the jump area was at 8:10, not 10 or 15 minutes past the 8:05 mark? the map shows a different story as to where they searched. we got numbers flying all over the place. so how is it a bad thing to run the path and see if it matches? I'm not setting out to discredit anything, but we have issues here that don't seem to fall into place. the best thing I can think of is to rerun the flight path.....no? does the FBI still believe in the original search area?"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mrshutter45 21 #40152 May 15, 2013 "JUST exactly HOW man minute pasted AFTER Tina went to the front of the plane and when Cooper supposedly jumped." see photo attached"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Robert99 37 #40153 May 15, 2013 skyjack71Then there is the insert added by Rataczak later - stating 7:45 and Cooper alone in Cabin. Yet, it has been reported and told by Tina at the time of the crime - that she was ordered forward by Cooper and she peeked back behind the curtain as Cooper was putting the chute ON. She has also been purported to state his cutting the cord and tieing the package to himself. If she was in the cabin at 7:45 - SHE did NOT see these things OR the JUMP TIME is WAY off. There are some SERIOUS problems with this time line - Perhaps the notes regarding TINA need to be scrutinzed a little more throughly. Jo, Cooper and Tina were in the cabin alone for several minutes, maybe 10 or 15, before the airplane even took off. And six minutes after takeoff, Cooper told Tina to go to the cockpit. During this time Cooper put on the parachute and sliced up one of the reserves. Tina also showed Cooper how to operate the aft stairs controls during this time. Tina also saw Cooper tying the bank bag around his waist as she closed the forward curtain just before entering the cockpit. There is no problem time wise with Tina's location. Since the aircraft was above an overcast prior to the jump, Cooper could not have been looking for signals on the ground since he could not see the ground. If you or Blevins are actually interested in the details of the Cooper hijacking, a good place to check for information would be the transcripts and other materials on Sluggo's web page. Robert99 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MeyerLouie 5 #40154 May 15, 2013 Douggarrhttp://woodinville.patch.com/groups/police-and-fire/p/homicide-victim-identified-as-earl-cossey-of-woodinville This just posted on FB. We know that Earl was murdered. We don't know anything beyond this fact. The article did not say whether anything in the house was missing, which would indicate a robbery. So we can speculate all we want. No suspects apparently. _____________________________________________ How is this possibly a news flash? We dont' know anything beyond Cossey being murdered and we have no suspects -- apparently. I think I heard this a week ago. Why don't you wait until something really comes before telling us a whole lot of nothing new? It's like watching breaking news on local TV -- you get the same old information re-hashed over and over again -- sometimes for hours. MeyerLouie Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MeyerLouie 5 #40155 May 15, 2013 I'm not setting out to discredit anything, but we have issues here that don't seem to fall into place. the best thing I can think of is to rerun the flight path.....no? does the FBI still believe in the original search area? _______________________________________________ I think even Mr. H has acknowledges that the FBI had it wrong -- the search area. Only one iota of anything was ever found (no parachute, no streamer, no briefcase, no moneybag, no loafers -- just the aft door placard) in the search area, and it's been said more than once, "You'd think something would have turned up by now." This is evidence (that's right, the lack of it) that Cooper most likely didn't jump here. Whatever algorithm or procedure was used to determine the jump zone, it was wrong. So, something is amiss. Moreover, the money find at Tena Bar might also indicate the calculations were off -- like maybe by quite a bit way off. Might Cooper have ended up more south and more east than what was originally estimated? Did we get faked out by that pressure bump? Entirely possible...... MeyerLouie Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mrshutter45 21 #40156 May 15, 2013 MeyerLouie I'm not setting out to discredit anything, but we have issues here that don't seem to fall into place. the best thing I can think of is to rerun the flight path.....no? does the FBI still believe in the original search area? _______________________________________________ I think even Mr. H has acknowledges that the FBI had it wrong -- the search area. Only one iota of anything was ever found (no parachute, no streamer, no briefcase, no moneybag, no loafers -- just the aft door placard) in the search area, and it's been said more than once, "You'd think something would have turned up by now." This is evidence (that's right, the lack of it) that Cooper most likely didn't jump here. Whatever algorithm or procedure was used to determine the jump zone, it was wrong. So, something is amiss. Moreover, the money find at Tena Bar might also indicate the calculations were off -- like maybe by quite a bit way off. Might Cooper have ended up more south and more east than what was originally estimated? Did we get faked out by that pressure bump? Entirely possible...... MeyerLouie Correct, I was just saying that to Blevins since he thought everyone knew everything about where Cooper jumped. if we have a skew in the time frames we can narrow things down. many think he went into the water, perhaps he did if something is wrong somewhere in the path. I just don't know at this moment. I can tell you that if I take off at 7:36:33 and the wind and temps are set properly and I follow exactly as they did leveling at 7,000 with flaps at 30, speed 160, then continue a while until I start the climb to 10,000 back at 15 flaps and around 170. I arrive at Toledo at 7:59. I have flown this part of the path dozens of times. I'm working on other parts of the leg following Toledo. I also get blown off course just as Rat explained. the hard part is being the pilot, co-pilot and engineer all at the same time, watching my speed, course, time, fuel etc. not easy my friend. I need a co-pilot with me keep in mind the place card was found some 25 KM from the supposed LZ......"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyjack71 0 #40157 May 16, 2013 Quote Since the aircraft was above an overcast prior to the jump, Cooper could not have been looking for signals on the ground since he could not see the ground. You forget I actually have spoke to the co-pilot and Tina! I have spoke to WITNESSES on the ground. Yes, there where DEFINITE openings when Cooper could have got a casting of lights below the clouds. Witnesses just East of Heisson and North of Heisson - (four of them) said the PLANE was very low and the man claimed to see a shadow in above the cloud level. I think he could hear and was looking in that direction which is near 14. Do YOU know what he could have seen during a break at that point? Or NORTH of there. A Dam, A Signal light on a mountain and another Signal light on a mountain just below that one. The damn Marquis I have talked about and why He bought a marquis 2 carat diamond ring. Perhaps you should try to simulate the shifting of the winds and the clouds and the rain! The known airstrips in 1971 are also a part of this - check them out. The wind is a factor and why the placard ended up West of where Cooper jumped. Just reminding you of the SOLID lead that did exist!Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mrshutter45 21 #40158 May 16, 2013 If Cooper was relying on ground signals, why did he pick a night with bad weather? what does the place card 25 KM away have to do with the jump?"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MeyerLouie 5 #40159 May 16, 2013 mrshutter45 ***I'm not setting out to discredit anything, but we have issues here that don't seem to fall into place. the best thing I can think of is to rerun the flight path.....no? does the FBI still believe in the original search area? _______________________________________________ I think even Mr. H has acknowledges that the FBI had it wrong -- the search area. Only one iota of anything was ever found (no parachute, no streamer, no briefcase, no moneybag, no loafers -- just the aft door placard) in the search area, and it's been said more than once, "You'd think something would have turned up by now." This is evidence (that's right, the lack of it) that Cooper most likely didn't jump here. Whatever algorithm or procedure was used to determine the jump zone, it was wrong. So, something is amiss. Moreover, the money find at Tena Bar might also indicate the calculations were off -- like maybe by quite a bit way off. Might Cooper have ended up more south and more east than what was originally estimated? Did we get faked out by that pressure bump? Entirely possible...... MeyerLouie Correct, I was just saying that to Blevins since he thought everyone knew everything about where Cooper jumped. if we have a skew in the time frames we can narrow things down. many think he went into the water, perhaps he did if something is wrong somewhere in the path. I just don't know at this moment. I can tell you that if I take off at 7:36:33 and the wind and temps are set properly and I follow exactly as they did leveling at 7,000 with flaps at 30, speed 160, then continue a while until I start the climb to 10,000 back at 15 flaps and around 170. I arrive at Toledo at 7:59. I have flown this part of the path dozens of times. I'm working on other parts of the leg following Toledo. I also get blown off course just as Rat explained. the hard part is being the pilot, co-pilot and engineer all at the same time, watching my speed, course, time, fuel etc. not easy my friend. I need a co-pilot with me keep in mind the place card was found some 25 KM from the supposed LZ...... _____________________________________________ Good information, Mrshutter45. Sounds like you need a couple of more hands. Your work is fascinating, it just may help answer some of those burning questions. You've already mentioned getting blown off course. That in itself could be significant. I don't have map in front of me right now, but I'm wondering just how close you are to the Columbia River gorge (the stretch of the River directly east of the Portland/Washougal area for several miles along the river, going east). I was in the Gorge that night, the wind was fierce. I'm wondering if 305 could have been close enough to the start of the Gorge to have been affected by the severe winds that were blowing through there that night. Might that have affected the flight path? I don't know how close an aircraft would have to be to the Columbia River Gorge to be affected by its severe side winds and wind shears. If so, then it might mean 305 was further south and further east than was originally thought. I do have to make one more point -- just because we haven't found a body or a parachute or a briefcase does not mean they're not there. And just because we have not found any of the Cooper stuff does not mean the flight path or jump zone was all wrong. Since none of the Cooper goods were found, it may be evidence, or a possible indication anyway, that something is amiss. That's all I'm saying. I think your work may very well help us get to the bottom of it. I wish you well, and if there's anything I could possibly do to help, please do not hesitate to ask. MeyerLouie Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georger 197 #40160 May 16, 2013 MeyerLouieI'm not setting out to discredit anything, but we have issues here that don't seem to fall into place. the best thing I can think of is to rerun the flight path.....no? does the FBI still believe in the original search area? _______________________________________________ I think even Mr. H has acknowledges that the FBI had it wrong -- the search area. Only one iota of anything was ever found (no parachute, no streamer, no briefcase, no moneybag, no loafers -- just the aft door placard) in the search area, and it's been said more than once, "You'd think something would have turned up by now." This is evidence (that's right, the lack of it) that Cooper most likely didn't jump here. Whatever algorithm or procedure was used to determine the jump zone, it was wrong. So, something is amiss. Moreover, the money find at Tena Bar might also indicate the calculations were off -- like maybe by quite a bit way off. Might Cooper have ended up more south and more east than what was originally estimated? Did we get faked out by that pressure bump? Entirely possible...... MeyerLouie Quote Yes he did, several times. In an interview following a conference in '76, H placed the DZ at 12 miles north of Portland. After the money find (1980) he moved the DZ east to somewhere near the Washougal at an uncertain north latitude. This is no way certifies that what H was saying/thinking in the Portland office, reflected what agents in the Seattle office and elsewhere were saying/thinking. The above is merely anecdotal ... but supported by interviews H gave during those years. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georger 197 #40161 May 16, 2013 MeyerLouie ******I'm not setting out to discredit anything, but we have issues here that don't seem to fall into place. the best thing I can think of is to rerun the flight path.....no? does the FBI still believe in the original search area? _______________________________________________ I think even Mr. H has acknowledges that the FBI had it wrong -- the search area. Only one iota of anything was ever found (no parachute, no streamer, no briefcase, no moneybag, no loafers -- just the aft door placard) in the search area, and it's been said more than once, "You'd think something would have turned up by now." This is evidence (that's right, the lack of it) that Cooper most likely didn't jump here. Whatever algorithm or procedure was used to determine the jump zone, it was wrong. So, something is amiss. Moreover, the money find at Tena Bar might also indicate the calculations were off -- like maybe by quite a bit way off. Might Cooper have ended up more south and more east than what was originally estimated? Did we get faked out by that pressure bump? Entirely possible...... MeyerLouie Correct, I was just saying that to Blevins since he thought everyone knew everything about where Cooper jumped. if we have a skew in the time frames we can narrow things down. many think he went into the water, perhaps he did if something is wrong somewhere in the path. I just don't know at this moment. I can tell you that if I take off at 7:36:33 and the wind and temps are set properly and I follow exactly as they did leveling at 7,000 with flaps at 30, speed 160, then continue a while until I start the climb to 10,000 back at 15 flaps and around 170. I arrive at Toledo at 7:59. I have flown this part of the path dozens of times. I'm working on other parts of the leg following Toledo. I also get blown off course just as Rat explained. the hard part is being the pilot, co-pilot and engineer all at the same time, watching my speed, course, time, fuel etc. not easy my friend. I need a co-pilot with me keep in mind the place card was found some 25 KM from the supposed LZ...... _____________________________________________ Good information, Mrshutter45. Sounds like you need a couple of more hands. Your work is fascinating, it just may help answer some of those burning questions. You've already mentioned getting blown off course. That in itself could be significant. I don't have map in front of me right now, but I'm wondering just how close you are to the Columbia River gorge (the stretch of the River directly east of the Portland/Washougal area for several miles along the river, going east). I was in the Gorge that night, the wind was fierce. I'm wondering if 305 could have been close enough to the start of the Gorge to have been affected by the severe winds that were blowing through there that night. Might that have affected the flight path? I don't know how close an aircraft would have to be to the Columbia River Gorge to be affected by its severe side winds and wind shears. If so, then it might mean 305 was further south and further east than was originally thought. I do have to make one more point -- just because we haven't found a body or a parachute or a briefcase does not mean they're not there. And just because we have not found any of the Cooper stuff does not mean the flight path or jump zone was all wrong. Since none of the Cooper goods were found, it may be evidence, or a possible indication anyway, that something is amiss. That's all I'm saying. I think your work may very well help us get to the bottom of it. I wish you well, and if there's anything I could possibly do to help, please do not hesitate to ask. MeyerLouie Quote good points which will merit future discussion, if and when new material is released - - - Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Robert99 37 #40162 May 16, 2013 skyjack71 Quote Since the aircraft was above an overcast prior to the jump, Cooper could not have been looking for signals on the ground since he could not see the ground. You forget I actually have spoke to the co-pilot and Tina! I have spoke to WITNESSES on the ground. Yes, there where DEFINITE openings when Cooper could have got a casting of lights below the clouds. Witnesses just East of Heisson and North of Heisson - (four of them) said the PLANE was very low and the man claimed to see a shadow in above the cloud level. I think he could hear and was looking in that direction which is near 14. Do YOU know what he could have seen during a break at that point? Or NORTH of there. A Dam, A Signal light on a mountain and another Signal light on a mountain just below that one. The damn Marquis I have talked about and why He bought a marquis 2 carat diamond ring. Perhaps you should try to simulate the shifting of the winds and the clouds and the rain! The known airstrips in 1971 are also a part of this - check them out. The wind is a factor and why the placard ended up West of where Cooper jumped. Just reminding you of the SOLID lead that did exist! Jo, As you have repeatedly been told, you need to pay attention to FACTS rather than your own imagination. There was an overcast at 5000 feet and there were broken cloud layers below that overcast. The placard is NOT going to be blown "upwind" but "downwind" and that means from the southwest to the northeast. The aircraft was at or very close to 10,000 feet above sea level as it passed through the Portland/Vancouver area. If the airliner was flying in rain as it passed thru the Portland/Vancouver area then there would have to be still another layer of clouds above 10000 feet. And no one is going to see a shadow through an overcast and several cloud layers at night with still another layer of clouds above the airliner to block any moonlight or starlight. I simply don't believe that the copilot or Tina told you anything that would conflict with the above. Your desperate and totally unsuccessful effort to place Duane in the Northwest, in a parachute, etc., and claiming that he was Cooper, or at least knew Cooper, makes you the biggest mystery on this thread. Even bigger than Cooper himself. Jo, what are you trying to get out of this? Robert99 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skyjack71 0 #40163 May 16, 2013 mrshutter45 If Cooper was relying on ground signals, why did he pick a night with bad weather? what does the place card 25 KM away have to do with the jump? Remember the flight circled for a long time - supposedly reported to the passengers that they had to burn off fuel - how long was that? Over an hour! Expect Cooper wasn't thinking about the weather - just the time of day for the jump just after dark. We were unable to predict the weather very far in advance back in 1971! I do not know what 25 KM means. Remember the wind patterns and the placard was light. No one ever reported the condition of the placard. How long after the crime was the placard found? Was it immediately, a month later, a yr later. I do not feel well enough to look these things up. Up drafts, down drafts wind directions and currents. Maybe the placard was planted? Lots of answers for that one. I will tell you that Duane pointed out an old cementary just off of I-4 and there was someone buried there he knew. He only pointed in that direction to the East. He also mentioned the Ole Grist Mill. IT was this same conversation he told me about knowing a woman in Mt. St. Helens in OR and some guys on the Oregon side of the river. I told this story many many yrs ago - LONG before I ever used a computer. I had NO idea what I was talking about or what significance it meant. The Grist Mill and Placard was mentioned in the book Max Gunther wrote and mentioned by Weber - but Duane was not telling me about Cooper nor could he ever have read the book at that time in 1979. The book was not published until 1985. ONE of the major reasons -Duane's confession made sense.... I swear to you guys I have never ever made this shit up. I merrily have recited what he told me in 1979. He did mention a covert on that interstate that went under the highway at the same time he explained the parallel power lines on the East side. He mentioned a park the boy stayed at and a place over on the beach to the West he had worked with the guys on...not sure what that was. After we passed a place about where the Lewis River was when he mentioned 2 towns above that and mentioned a smorgaborg the BOYS use to go to eat. I do not know the yrs he was referring to. It was when we entered an area that was nothing but tree and he told me to take a nap as there was nothing till we got to Tacoma. You see I am like a recorder. I recall things normal people do not, but that was how my father taught me. His way of educating us was to travel and ask us questions and that is how I learned U.S. History. I hated history. My brother who is 18 months younger than myself remembers most of the details of our family trips better than I do. Gives you an idea of how my mind remembered the details of the trip Duane and I made in 1979. I was trained to remember details of trips. Now I will say GOOD NIGHT! Again! I forgot this was just going to be a short post!Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skyjack71 0 #40164 May 16, 2013 Two minutes off and wind drifts! Cooper didn't leave anything behind. If he did - he went back and retrieved it before he left the area. Go right back at them! Remember that and never forget it. I will never forget that statement when Duane made it. "The only way to get away with a crime is to GO right BACK at Em!" Of course he passed it off as a joke. What he did leave was someplace NO one would ever look and I know in my heart that when he disappeared in The Dalles for 5 1/2 hours that he then retrieved what-ever he hid from where ever he hid it. His excuse for being soiled that day when he returned to the motel was that the lady he went to see - her husband had died and that she asked him to move something for her in the shed. He said there was rotten wood because of a leak. I do NOT know who the woman was but were ever it was he was able to get there and back and retrive something in 5 1/2 hours. Maybe it was an old girl friend, but I did NOT get that feeling. Perhaps he knew her husband had died - the way he spoke of the woman my sense was that she was an older person....and of course now I know part of life I knew nothing about.Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mrshutter45 21 #40165 May 16, 2013 MeyerLouie ******I'm not setting out to discredit anything, but we have issues here that don't seem to fall into place. the best thing I can think of is to rerun the flight path.....no? does the FBI still believe in the original search area? _______________________________________________ I think even Mr. H has acknowledges that the FBI had it wrong -- the search area. Only one iota of anything was ever found (no parachute, no streamer, no briefcase, no moneybag, no loafers -- just the aft door placard) in the search area, and it's been said more than once, "You'd think something would have turned up by now." This is evidence (that's right, the lack of it) that Cooper most likely didn't jump here. Whatever algorithm or procedure was used to determine the jump zone, it was wrong. So, something is amiss. Moreover, the money find at Tena Bar might also indicate the calculations were off -- like maybe by quite a bit way off. Might Cooper have ended up more south and more east than what was originally estimated? Did we get faked out by that pressure bump? Entirely possible...... MeyerLouie Correct, I was just saying that to Blevins since he thought everyone knew everything about where Cooper jumped. if we have a skew in the time frames we can narrow things down. many think he went into the water, perhaps he did if something is wrong somewhere in the path. I just don't know at this moment. I can tell you that if I take off at 7:36:33 and the wind and temps are set properly and I follow exactly as they did leveling at 7,000 with flaps at 30, speed 160, then continue a while until I start the climb to 10,000 back at 15 flaps and around 170. I arrive at Toledo at 7:59. I have flown this part of the path dozens of times. I'm working on other parts of the leg following Toledo. I also get blown off course just as Rat explained. the hard part is being the pilot, co-pilot and engineer all at the same time, watching my speed, course, time, fuel etc. not easy my friend. I need a co-pilot with me keep in mind the place card was found some 25 KM from the supposed LZ...... _____________________________________________ Good information, Mrshutter45. Sounds like you need a couple of more hands. Your work is fascinating, it just may help answer some of those burning questions. You've already mentioned getting blown off course. That in itself could be significant. I don't have map in front of me right now, but I'm wondering just how close you are to the Columbia River gorge (the stretch of the River directly east of the Portland/Washougal area for several miles along the river, going east). I was in the Gorge that night, the wind was fierce. I'm wondering if 305 could have been close enough to the start of the Gorge to have been affected by the severe winds that were blowing through there that night. Might that have affected the flight path? I don't know how close an aircraft would have to be to the Columbia River Gorge to be affected by its severe side winds and wind shears. If so, then it might mean 305 was further south and further east than was originally thought. I do have to make one more point -- just because we haven't found a body or a parachute or a briefcase does not mean they're not there. And just because we have not found any of the Cooper stuff does not mean the flight path or jump zone was all wrong. Since none of the Cooper goods were found, it may be evidence, or a possible indication anyway, that something is amiss. That's all I'm saying. I think your work may very well help us get to the bottom of it. I wish you well, and if there's anything I could possibly do to help, please do not hesitate to ask. MeyerLouie Thanks Meyer, the main problem I have is the timing, while busy flying I'm watching the altitude, speed etc. and forget to climb to a point, or speed up, even though I have notes in front of me, it's a lot to keep track of. I was thinking of having a phone patch put thru the sim, this way I could have someone on the phone to fly with. the pause button works, but I have to hit the timer on the yoke plus stop the sim. it's just little things that I have to adjust too. the weather system I now have on it is very complicated, or I'm making it complicated (haven't decided) the system is off by a certain amount of degrees after I input the information. I've contacted the company and they are guiding me thru my error's. I believe I turn west away from the area you speak of, lots of zig zags from Merwin down to Portland. this whole area is not very big once you view it from above, I can see Portland while passing over the Lewis river (if I have no cloud coverage) I can see the highway with no problem, you can do a lot of "dead reckoning' flying in this area with the highway, lake Vancouver, Battleground etc. as for the body, chute and briefcase, all I can say is it's possible he could be out there or gone into the water, or just walked away........me don't know"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mrshutter45 21 #40166 May 16, 2013 I meant nautical miles, for some reason I always put KM....should be NM....."It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skyjack71 0 #40167 May 16, 2013 Quote I simply don't believe that the copilot or Tina told you anything that would conflict with the above. Your desperate and totally unsuccessful effort to place Duane in the Northwest, in a parachute, etc., and claiming that he was Cooper, or at least knew Cooper, makes you the biggest mystery on this thread. Even bigger than Cooper himself. Jo, what are you trying to get out of this? Robert99 Tina and I had a very limited conversation and it was not about the flight. I have had several conversations in the last 17 yrs with the co-pilot. He did talk about being able to see the lights near Vancover and Portland and remember he was in the co-pilots seat on the left. That alone sort of contradict lots of things I have read about...but I repeated it in amazement. Maybe he was telling me what I wanted to hear. Maybe I misunderstood, but I do not think so. Yet, the flight pattern as those who would come along yrs later - shifted the flight to the west. Why I was upset about the map that showed the flight going further West - not at all what I had been told and then they changed it yet again. So I have NO idea which plan Shutter is working with. 2 minutes is a lot of time both east and west and north and south in a plane. The witnesses who came forward put the plane more toward the East and then over the last 42 yrs it has change to and fro...depending on who wanted to prove what. Witness reports put that damn plane further East than the map and then push the fight pattern North and you have it dead on! Of course I have NO idea which flight path you guys are working with. There are 3 different maps out that showing the flight path. Each changing it to suit their own reasoning. 2 fricking minutes and the majority of the witness siting are right on target. The Galen Cook witness - well that was all Cooked up by Glacier boy. He likes to lead people into his ideas...he couldn't deal with me! He has so much invested in this he would do whatever it take to prove his angles....even used his own version of my fingerprints story. The sitings along the expressway - some of those could have been the plane that was behind the hijacked 727. Not hardly able to make that mistake with the Eastwardly siting. They may not have saw the plane - but they heard it. Some claimed what the witnesses heard was the search plane. Military wives know the difference between a large passenger plane, a small fast plane and a transport. I have lived around bases for yrs and I can also tell you the difference.Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites MeyerLouie 5 #40168 May 16, 2013 RobertMBlevinsMeyerLouie says in part: Quote'I'm wondering if 305 could have been close enough to the start of the Gorge to have been affected by the severe winds that were blowing through there that night. Might that have affected the flight path? I don't know how close an aircraft would have to be to the Columbia River Gorge to be affected by its severe side winds and wind shears. If so, then it might mean 305 was further south and further east than was originally thought...' Don't you think the air traffic controllers and their radar would have noticed that? And in noticing that, the flight path map would have been adjusted? In your 'maybe they just got blown off course' world, planes would be doing mid-air collisions pretty regularly. I think the flight sim experiment being done by Shutter is a good thing, and could reveal much. However, one thing it CAN'T do is have two-way com with people on the ground who are tracking it by radar and giving the usual updates. So in this one way, it is limited. But only in this one way. _______________________________________________ You jumped all over 4 topics in one little paragraph. Focus dude, get back on the decaffeinated coffee -- one thing at a time. MrShutter45 said he noticed beng blown off course, Ratz also commented about being blown off course a bit. Remember reading that, or is it terminal amnesia for you? We were discussing why that happened, and evidence to indicate possible error in the LZ and search area. So, getting blown off course is going to cause plane crashes all over the place? Ever study vectors in relation to wind speed, wind direction, true direction, and actual ground speed of aircraft? Example: If you are flying from, say, LA to Seattle, and the jet stream is coming in pretty strong from due west, then the plane is not going to end up in Seattle if the pilot sets a due norh bearing. The jet stream is going to force the aircraft easterly, and the aircraft is going to end up in a place like Bozeman, MT. not Seattle. The pilot will have to set a true direction north by northwest if he/she wants to end up in Seattle. Pilots make these adjustments due to wind and weather all the time. In a sense, planes frequently and purposely fly off course (true direction) to arrive at the desired destination when wind becomes an issue. Basic navigation 101, Blevins. It's a simple addition of vectors. Planes are not going to be crashing into each other all the time. That's silly! MeyerLouie _______________________________________________ I don't think the problem is with the map. It's where Cooper jumped along that map. There is no solid evidence, even after more than four decades, that indicates it was inaccurate. ______________________________________________ I beg to differ. Actually there is evidence to indicate the exact opposite. What evidence do we have to indicate inaccuracy? The evidence we have is that there is no evidence. None of the items in Cooper's possession were ever found in the search area. You said a little earlier that one would think something would have turned up by now. Even Mr. H has admitted the search area was not correct. So, there is the possibility of error. Cooper may not have jumped when we think he did. The evidence -- the fact that there isn't any -- may indicate this is a possibility. That's all -- no more, no less. MeyerLouie _______________________________________________ Cooper was smart to send Mucklow forward. As we see now, even a three-minute window of doubt on the jump point means many square miles of search area. Establishing exactly when the flight engineer saw the stair indicator light flash OFF for that little moment will probably give you the moment that Cooper actually jumped from the plane. But even if you narrow it down to a single minute during the flight, this still leaves a three-mile corridor and the usual possibilities for drift. Because any information regarding this light will never be narrowed down to something WITHIN that minute, the exact jump point can never be known. Best you'll ever do is that three mile corridor, and even establishing that is difficult. _______________________________________________ I've bolded two of your statements -- they seem contradictory. That's an irregular thing for you. MeyerLouie Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mrshutter45 21 #40169 May 16, 2013 " In your 'maybe they just got blown off course' world " Robert, if you don't watch what you are doing in the air you will fly off course. it's called corrective action or variation and deviation. why would they have a Navigator on a plane if it was so easy to fly a straight line? An airplane is heading due south at a speed of 500 km/h. If a wind begins blowing from the southwest at a speed of 100 km/h, calculate the velocity of the plane relative to the ground, and how far off course it will be after 10 min. Answer: 435 km/h, 9.36 degrees east of south. so, this happens very often in the "blown off course world" " I don't think the problem is with the map. It's where Cooper jumped along that map. There is no solid evidence, even after more than four decades, that indicates it was inaccurate. " again, what do you do in order to figure out if Cooper jumped in a different location? pages back you claimed they knew exactly where Cooper jumped? the-first-step-would-be-re-doing-the-path-to-make-sure-the-minutes-are-as-they-have-them-on-the-map-if-this-is-incorrect-you-will-never-know-where-he-jumped. now you admit he could of jumped somewhere else, but don't think checking the path is a good idea because there is no solid evidence? you are very negative about a lot of things, tell me, how is it you can be so positive about KC? you must have some solid evidence? the most logical start would be from point A of a problem, not point E, F or G. you must start at the begining in order to conclude any facts."It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skyjack71 0 #40170 May 16, 2013 Tina and I had a very limited conversation and it was not about the flight. I have had several conversations in the last 17 yrs with the co-pilot. He did talk about being able to see the lights near Vancover and Portland and remember he was in the co-pilots seat on the left. HE WAS IN THE CO-PILOTS SEAT ON THE RIGHT!Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites EVickiW 0 #40171 May 16, 2013 MeyerLouie Only one iota of anything was ever found (no parachute, no streamer, no briefcase, no moneybag, no loafers -- just the aft door placard) in the search area, and it's been said more than once, "You'd think something would have turned up by now." This is evidence (that's right, the lack of it) that Cooper most likely didn't jump here. Whatever algorithm or procedure was used to determine the jump zone, it was wrong. So, something is amiss. Moreover, the money find at Tena Bar might also indicate the calculations were off -- like maybe by quite a bit way off. Might Cooper have ended up more south and more east than what was originally estimated? Did we get faked out by that pressure bump? Entirely possible...... ***as for the body, chute and briefcase, all I can say is it's possible he could be out there or gone into the water, or just walked away........me don't know *** but does not have the time to figure out this new formatting...... http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/05/14/remains-in-colorado-car-identified-as-man-missing-since-187/ http://www.gjsentinel.com/breaking/articles/skeletal-remains-near-gateway-linked-to-26-year-old-case/ Sometimes people "disappear" and they could be closer than you would have ever imagined.Melvin Luther Wilson - Missing Person since September 1971: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=03QLnFvk8Fs Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites BobKnoss 0 #40172 May 16, 2013 Claims to be blown east, countered by corrective action in flight path is how the flight attained the 20 miles to the west location Himmelbach was told about in his study. Parallel and west of five. 20 miles west of the recorded plotting at the time of the hijacking. Per the only one who would know. Just like I said before. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites airtwardo 6 #40173 May 16, 2013 Quotethe most logical start would be from point A of a problem, When a competent & experienced sport skydiver looks out & down prior to exit, in our 'minds-eye' we visualize possible landing areas in regard to the 'exact' exit point. You take kind of a 3D picture and superimpose what amounts roughly to an upside down funnel into that, with the aircraft door at the small end of the funnel. The 'size & shape' of the funnel are dictated by a number of variables...exit altitude, speed, freefall drift, opening altitude, wind speed & direction as well as canopy performance parameters. 'Spotting' for an exit point is basically making sure your intended landing site is at the center of this 'cone' of possible places you can go, once you've left the door. The reason I bring this up is... When mrshutter first started explaining his project 305, I thought to myself what a fantastic way of narrowing down a possible LZ with math & science in a way not considered prior. One could conceivably factor in ALL the variables and produce a map of sorts, showing 'only' the area of probability... After sifting through the last several pages it's becoming apparent to me anyway, the cone of possible LZ's is freakin' MASSIVE. Even with an exact track path & identifiable exit point, the winds & unknown opening altitude alone highlight an LZ 'cone' that would be extremely difficult to foot search. Throw in the possible variance on the track along with the ground covered from the time Cooper was known to be on the plane and known to be off...holy COW that's a big area! So...I started thinking project 305 may not be able to give a practical area of search considering the variables 'at this time', but is a very valuable tool to exclude - to a VERY certain degree - areas that absolutely could NOT be within that 'cone' I described. Am I wrong...doesn't the location of the placard fall WELL outside of the cone of possibility, from the information currently available? If so, that's troubling...because if it wasn't moved from where it landed that night, somebody's numbers are way off. ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Robert99 37 #40174 May 16, 2013 airtwardoQuotethe most logical start would be from point A of a problem, When a competent & experienced sport skydiver looks out & down prior to exit, in our 'minds-eye' we visualize possible landing areas in regard to the 'exact' exit point. You take kind of a 3D picture and superimpose what amounts roughly to an upside down funnel into that, with the aircraft door at the small end of the funnel. The 'size & shape' of the funnel are dictated by a number of variables...exit altitude, speed, freefall drift, opening altitude, wind speed & direction as well as canopy performance parameters. 'Spotting' for an exit point is basically making sure your intended landing site is at the center of this 'cone' of possible places you can go, once you've left the door. The reason I bring this up is... When mrshutter first started explaining his project 305, I thought to myself what a fantastic way of narrowing down a possible LZ with math & science in a way not considered prior. One could conceivably factor in ALL the variables and produce a map of sorts, showing 'only' the area of probability... After sifting through the last several pages it's becoming apparent to me anyway, the cone of possible LZ's is freakin' MASSIVE. Even with an exact track path & identifiable exit point, the winds & unknown opening altitude alone highlight an LZ 'cone' that would be extremely difficult to foot search. Throw in the possible variance on the track along with the ground covered from the time Cooper was known to be on the plane and known to be off...holy COW that's a big area! So...I started thinking project 305 may not be able to give a practical area of search considering the variables 'at this time', but is a very valuable tool to exclude - to a VERY certain degree - areas that absolutely could NOT be within that 'cone' I described. Am I wrong...doesn't the location of the placard fall WELL outside of the cone of possibility, from the information currently available? If so, that's troubling...because if it wasn't moved from where it landed that night, somebody's numbers are way off. The time and exact location that the placard separated from the airliner is not known. However, as shown on Tom Kaye's web page, the airliner was probably on the western edge of V-23 when the placard came off. I consider those numbers to be conservative, meaning that the airliner may have been further upwind, or to the southwest, than indicated by the calculations. In reality, the location where the placard separated from the aircraft is not material to the jump point but only to the track of the aircraft. And as has been pointed out on this and previous threads for several years, starting at least with Sluggo's early research, the times shown on the FBI maps are not valid. Tom Kaye essentially ruled out the Columbia River as a realistic means for the money to arrive at Tina Bar. The NW Lower River Road, which is built on top of a levee, basically rules out the possibility that the money arrived by water from Vancouver Lake or anything on the east side of Tina Bar. But the money did make it to Tina Bar and that is a "fact"! If it didn't get there horizontally, then about the only remaining option is vertically. In fact, the money at Tina Bar and the location of the placard are the only verifiable physical "facts" after the airliner left Seattle. So the inverted funnel that Airtwardo mentions must funnel Cooper into Tina Bar. Basically, the western edge of that funnel must be no further west that the western bank of the Columbia and the eastern edge must be west of the NW Lower River Road. If Cooper had landed in the Columbia River he would have gone downstream. So Cooper had to land on the narrow strip of land that is between the Columbia River and the NW Lower River Road. In addition, there is no evidence that the money travelled very far in any direction and that limits the north/south Cooper landing point. Robert99 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mrshutter45 21 #40175 May 16, 2013 airtwardo Quote the most logical start would be from point A of a problem, When a competent & experienced sport skydiver looks out & down prior to exit, in our 'minds-eye' we visualize possible landing areas in regard to the 'exact' exit point. You take kind of a 3D picture and superimpose what amounts roughly to an upside down funnel into that, with the aircraft door at the small end of the funnel. The 'size & shape' of the funnel are dictated by a number of variables...exit altitude, speed, freefall drift, opening altitude, wind speed & direction as well as canopy performance parameters. 'Spotting' for an exit point is basically making sure your intended landing site is at the center of this 'cone' of possible places you can go, once you've left the door. The reason I bring this up is... When mrshutter first started explaining his project 305, I thought to myself what a fantastic way of narrowing down a possible LZ with math & science in a way not considered prior. One could conceivably factor in ALL the variables and produce a map of sorts, showing 'only' the area of probability... After sifting through the last several pages it's becoming apparent to me anyway, the cone of possible LZ's is freakin' MASSIVE. Even with an exact track path & identifiable exit point, the winds & unknown opening altitude alone highlight an LZ 'cone' that would be extremely difficult to foot search. Throw in the possible variance on the track along with the ground covered from the time Cooper was known to be on the plane and known to be off...holy COW that's a big area! So...I started thinking project 305 may not be able to give a practical area of search considering the variables 'at this time', but is a very valuable tool to exclude - to a VERY certain degree - areas that absolutely could NOT be within that 'cone' I described. Am I wrong...doesn't the location of the placard fall WELL outside of the cone of possibility, from the information currently available? If so, that's troubling...because if it wasn't moved from where it landed that night, somebody's numbers are way off. Well, I'll try and explain my original thought once the project started. over a certain time period, one gains knowledge about things through books, internet, talking to peeps etc. I noticed a lot of confusion as to the probable place Cooper could have jumped. he landed in the water, no he is stuck on a tree etc. then I started noticing people talking about the path, whether it was correct in it's timing, or if the path was right. A little light bulb went off in my head, I have a simulator, I could try and fly the path they way they did. so, my intention is to validate the path, try and match everything done as they did. the weather, altitude, speed, direction and the weight of the plane. I don't think I can tell you where Cooper jumped, but, when I'm finished I should be able to tell you the flight path can be flown the way they presented it. if something is found not matching the FBI time frame, we now know where to correct the map and get it on track. my intention is not to tell you exactly where Cooper jumped, you need a time machine for that, but, it should give us firm information about the flight path itself. we have known problems in the time frames that Robert99 has done calculations on way before I was around. I have been able to verify those issues in question the first couple minutes of the flight. validation is a key word here, not where Cooper landed. that is a primary goal for all of us. this is why I can't explain enough that the path has to be checked in order to validate anything past that. I might find nothing wrong with the path, but, you will feel cozy inside knowing the path has been verfied and start moving forward from that point. you must start from point A in order to follow up ending with Z. if you go in between, how can you be sure of your position? worse case, the talk is Cooper landed further South, correct? what if the plane is one minute behind the known time frame, look out water ahead! 8:14,15 and 16 move forward and closer to the Columbia. we seem to question and ask for proof on everything tied to this case, why exclude the flight path? once everything is mastered, a video will be made, it will show the time, altitude, direction, coords, temps, wind direction, fuel flow etc. documenting minute by minute where the plane is on each step, you will see inside views and out. popcorn not included "It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1602 1603 1604 1605 1606 1607 1608 1609 1610 1611 1612 Next Page 1607 of 2541 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 47 47
georger 197 #40161 May 16, 2013 MeyerLouie ******I'm not setting out to discredit anything, but we have issues here that don't seem to fall into place. the best thing I can think of is to rerun the flight path.....no? does the FBI still believe in the original search area? _______________________________________________ I think even Mr. H has acknowledges that the FBI had it wrong -- the search area. Only one iota of anything was ever found (no parachute, no streamer, no briefcase, no moneybag, no loafers -- just the aft door placard) in the search area, and it's been said more than once, "You'd think something would have turned up by now." This is evidence (that's right, the lack of it) that Cooper most likely didn't jump here. Whatever algorithm or procedure was used to determine the jump zone, it was wrong. So, something is amiss. Moreover, the money find at Tena Bar might also indicate the calculations were off -- like maybe by quite a bit way off. Might Cooper have ended up more south and more east than what was originally estimated? Did we get faked out by that pressure bump? Entirely possible...... MeyerLouie Correct, I was just saying that to Blevins since he thought everyone knew everything about where Cooper jumped. if we have a skew in the time frames we can narrow things down. many think he went into the water, perhaps he did if something is wrong somewhere in the path. I just don't know at this moment. I can tell you that if I take off at 7:36:33 and the wind and temps are set properly and I follow exactly as they did leveling at 7,000 with flaps at 30, speed 160, then continue a while until I start the climb to 10,000 back at 15 flaps and around 170. I arrive at Toledo at 7:59. I have flown this part of the path dozens of times. I'm working on other parts of the leg following Toledo. I also get blown off course just as Rat explained. the hard part is being the pilot, co-pilot and engineer all at the same time, watching my speed, course, time, fuel etc. not easy my friend. I need a co-pilot with me keep in mind the place card was found some 25 KM from the supposed LZ...... _____________________________________________ Good information, Mrshutter45. Sounds like you need a couple of more hands. Your work is fascinating, it just may help answer some of those burning questions. You've already mentioned getting blown off course. That in itself could be significant. I don't have map in front of me right now, but I'm wondering just how close you are to the Columbia River gorge (the stretch of the River directly east of the Portland/Washougal area for several miles along the river, going east). I was in the Gorge that night, the wind was fierce. I'm wondering if 305 could have been close enough to the start of the Gorge to have been affected by the severe winds that were blowing through there that night. Might that have affected the flight path? I don't know how close an aircraft would have to be to the Columbia River Gorge to be affected by its severe side winds and wind shears. If so, then it might mean 305 was further south and further east than was originally thought. I do have to make one more point -- just because we haven't found a body or a parachute or a briefcase does not mean they're not there. And just because we have not found any of the Cooper stuff does not mean the flight path or jump zone was all wrong. Since none of the Cooper goods were found, it may be evidence, or a possible indication anyway, that something is amiss. That's all I'm saying. I think your work may very well help us get to the bottom of it. I wish you well, and if there's anything I could possibly do to help, please do not hesitate to ask. MeyerLouie Quote good points which will merit future discussion, if and when new material is released - - - Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Robert99 37 #40162 May 16, 2013 skyjack71 Quote Since the aircraft was above an overcast prior to the jump, Cooper could not have been looking for signals on the ground since he could not see the ground. You forget I actually have spoke to the co-pilot and Tina! I have spoke to WITNESSES on the ground. Yes, there where DEFINITE openings when Cooper could have got a casting of lights below the clouds. Witnesses just East of Heisson and North of Heisson - (four of them) said the PLANE was very low and the man claimed to see a shadow in above the cloud level. I think he could hear and was looking in that direction which is near 14. Do YOU know what he could have seen during a break at that point? Or NORTH of there. A Dam, A Signal light on a mountain and another Signal light on a mountain just below that one. The damn Marquis I have talked about and why He bought a marquis 2 carat diamond ring. Perhaps you should try to simulate the shifting of the winds and the clouds and the rain! The known airstrips in 1971 are also a part of this - check them out. The wind is a factor and why the placard ended up West of where Cooper jumped. Just reminding you of the SOLID lead that did exist! Jo, As you have repeatedly been told, you need to pay attention to FACTS rather than your own imagination. There was an overcast at 5000 feet and there were broken cloud layers below that overcast. The placard is NOT going to be blown "upwind" but "downwind" and that means from the southwest to the northeast. The aircraft was at or very close to 10,000 feet above sea level as it passed through the Portland/Vancouver area. If the airliner was flying in rain as it passed thru the Portland/Vancouver area then there would have to be still another layer of clouds above 10000 feet. And no one is going to see a shadow through an overcast and several cloud layers at night with still another layer of clouds above the airliner to block any moonlight or starlight. I simply don't believe that the copilot or Tina told you anything that would conflict with the above. Your desperate and totally unsuccessful effort to place Duane in the Northwest, in a parachute, etc., and claiming that he was Cooper, or at least knew Cooper, makes you the biggest mystery on this thread. Even bigger than Cooper himself. Jo, what are you trying to get out of this? Robert99 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyjack71 0 #40163 May 16, 2013 mrshutter45 If Cooper was relying on ground signals, why did he pick a night with bad weather? what does the place card 25 KM away have to do with the jump? Remember the flight circled for a long time - supposedly reported to the passengers that they had to burn off fuel - how long was that? Over an hour! Expect Cooper wasn't thinking about the weather - just the time of day for the jump just after dark. We were unable to predict the weather very far in advance back in 1971! I do not know what 25 KM means. Remember the wind patterns and the placard was light. No one ever reported the condition of the placard. How long after the crime was the placard found? Was it immediately, a month later, a yr later. I do not feel well enough to look these things up. Up drafts, down drafts wind directions and currents. Maybe the placard was planted? Lots of answers for that one. I will tell you that Duane pointed out an old cementary just off of I-4 and there was someone buried there he knew. He only pointed in that direction to the East. He also mentioned the Ole Grist Mill. IT was this same conversation he told me about knowing a woman in Mt. St. Helens in OR and some guys on the Oregon side of the river. I told this story many many yrs ago - LONG before I ever used a computer. I had NO idea what I was talking about or what significance it meant. The Grist Mill and Placard was mentioned in the book Max Gunther wrote and mentioned by Weber - but Duane was not telling me about Cooper nor could he ever have read the book at that time in 1979. The book was not published until 1985. ONE of the major reasons -Duane's confession made sense.... I swear to you guys I have never ever made this shit up. I merrily have recited what he told me in 1979. He did mention a covert on that interstate that went under the highway at the same time he explained the parallel power lines on the East side. He mentioned a park the boy stayed at and a place over on the beach to the West he had worked with the guys on...not sure what that was. After we passed a place about where the Lewis River was when he mentioned 2 towns above that and mentioned a smorgaborg the BOYS use to go to eat. I do not know the yrs he was referring to. It was when we entered an area that was nothing but tree and he told me to take a nap as there was nothing till we got to Tacoma. You see I am like a recorder. I recall things normal people do not, but that was how my father taught me. His way of educating us was to travel and ask us questions and that is how I learned U.S. History. I hated history. My brother who is 18 months younger than myself remembers most of the details of our family trips better than I do. Gives you an idea of how my mind remembered the details of the trip Duane and I made in 1979. I was trained to remember details of trips. Now I will say GOOD NIGHT! Again! I forgot this was just going to be a short post!Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyjack71 0 #40164 May 16, 2013 Two minutes off and wind drifts! Cooper didn't leave anything behind. If he did - he went back and retrieved it before he left the area. Go right back at them! Remember that and never forget it. I will never forget that statement when Duane made it. "The only way to get away with a crime is to GO right BACK at Em!" Of course he passed it off as a joke. What he did leave was someplace NO one would ever look and I know in my heart that when he disappeared in The Dalles for 5 1/2 hours that he then retrieved what-ever he hid from where ever he hid it. His excuse for being soiled that day when he returned to the motel was that the lady he went to see - her husband had died and that she asked him to move something for her in the shed. He said there was rotten wood because of a leak. I do NOT know who the woman was but were ever it was he was able to get there and back and retrive something in 5 1/2 hours. Maybe it was an old girl friend, but I did NOT get that feeling. Perhaps he knew her husband had died - the way he spoke of the woman my sense was that she was an older person....and of course now I know part of life I knew nothing about.Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mrshutter45 21 #40165 May 16, 2013 MeyerLouie ******I'm not setting out to discredit anything, but we have issues here that don't seem to fall into place. the best thing I can think of is to rerun the flight path.....no? does the FBI still believe in the original search area? _______________________________________________ I think even Mr. H has acknowledges that the FBI had it wrong -- the search area. Only one iota of anything was ever found (no parachute, no streamer, no briefcase, no moneybag, no loafers -- just the aft door placard) in the search area, and it's been said more than once, "You'd think something would have turned up by now." This is evidence (that's right, the lack of it) that Cooper most likely didn't jump here. Whatever algorithm or procedure was used to determine the jump zone, it was wrong. So, something is amiss. Moreover, the money find at Tena Bar might also indicate the calculations were off -- like maybe by quite a bit way off. Might Cooper have ended up more south and more east than what was originally estimated? Did we get faked out by that pressure bump? Entirely possible...... MeyerLouie Correct, I was just saying that to Blevins since he thought everyone knew everything about where Cooper jumped. if we have a skew in the time frames we can narrow things down. many think he went into the water, perhaps he did if something is wrong somewhere in the path. I just don't know at this moment. I can tell you that if I take off at 7:36:33 and the wind and temps are set properly and I follow exactly as they did leveling at 7,000 with flaps at 30, speed 160, then continue a while until I start the climb to 10,000 back at 15 flaps and around 170. I arrive at Toledo at 7:59. I have flown this part of the path dozens of times. I'm working on other parts of the leg following Toledo. I also get blown off course just as Rat explained. the hard part is being the pilot, co-pilot and engineer all at the same time, watching my speed, course, time, fuel etc. not easy my friend. I need a co-pilot with me keep in mind the place card was found some 25 KM from the supposed LZ...... _____________________________________________ Good information, Mrshutter45. Sounds like you need a couple of more hands. Your work is fascinating, it just may help answer some of those burning questions. You've already mentioned getting blown off course. That in itself could be significant. I don't have map in front of me right now, but I'm wondering just how close you are to the Columbia River gorge (the stretch of the River directly east of the Portland/Washougal area for several miles along the river, going east). I was in the Gorge that night, the wind was fierce. I'm wondering if 305 could have been close enough to the start of the Gorge to have been affected by the severe winds that were blowing through there that night. Might that have affected the flight path? I don't know how close an aircraft would have to be to the Columbia River Gorge to be affected by its severe side winds and wind shears. If so, then it might mean 305 was further south and further east than was originally thought. I do have to make one more point -- just because we haven't found a body or a parachute or a briefcase does not mean they're not there. And just because we have not found any of the Cooper stuff does not mean the flight path or jump zone was all wrong. Since none of the Cooper goods were found, it may be evidence, or a possible indication anyway, that something is amiss. That's all I'm saying. I think your work may very well help us get to the bottom of it. I wish you well, and if there's anything I could possibly do to help, please do not hesitate to ask. MeyerLouie Thanks Meyer, the main problem I have is the timing, while busy flying I'm watching the altitude, speed etc. and forget to climb to a point, or speed up, even though I have notes in front of me, it's a lot to keep track of. I was thinking of having a phone patch put thru the sim, this way I could have someone on the phone to fly with. the pause button works, but I have to hit the timer on the yoke plus stop the sim. it's just little things that I have to adjust too. the weather system I now have on it is very complicated, or I'm making it complicated (haven't decided) the system is off by a certain amount of degrees after I input the information. I've contacted the company and they are guiding me thru my error's. I believe I turn west away from the area you speak of, lots of zig zags from Merwin down to Portland. this whole area is not very big once you view it from above, I can see Portland while passing over the Lewis river (if I have no cloud coverage) I can see the highway with no problem, you can do a lot of "dead reckoning' flying in this area with the highway, lake Vancouver, Battleground etc. as for the body, chute and briefcase, all I can say is it's possible he could be out there or gone into the water, or just walked away........me don't know"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mrshutter45 21 #40166 May 16, 2013 I meant nautical miles, for some reason I always put KM....should be NM....."It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyjack71 0 #40167 May 16, 2013 Quote I simply don't believe that the copilot or Tina told you anything that would conflict with the above. Your desperate and totally unsuccessful effort to place Duane in the Northwest, in a parachute, etc., and claiming that he was Cooper, or at least knew Cooper, makes you the biggest mystery on this thread. Even bigger than Cooper himself. Jo, what are you trying to get out of this? Robert99 Tina and I had a very limited conversation and it was not about the flight. I have had several conversations in the last 17 yrs with the co-pilot. He did talk about being able to see the lights near Vancover and Portland and remember he was in the co-pilots seat on the left. That alone sort of contradict lots of things I have read about...but I repeated it in amazement. Maybe he was telling me what I wanted to hear. Maybe I misunderstood, but I do not think so. Yet, the flight pattern as those who would come along yrs later - shifted the flight to the west. Why I was upset about the map that showed the flight going further West - not at all what I had been told and then they changed it yet again. So I have NO idea which plan Shutter is working with. 2 minutes is a lot of time both east and west and north and south in a plane. The witnesses who came forward put the plane more toward the East and then over the last 42 yrs it has change to and fro...depending on who wanted to prove what. Witness reports put that damn plane further East than the map and then push the fight pattern North and you have it dead on! Of course I have NO idea which flight path you guys are working with. There are 3 different maps out that showing the flight path. Each changing it to suit their own reasoning. 2 fricking minutes and the majority of the witness siting are right on target. The Galen Cook witness - well that was all Cooked up by Glacier boy. He likes to lead people into his ideas...he couldn't deal with me! He has so much invested in this he would do whatever it take to prove his angles....even used his own version of my fingerprints story. The sitings along the expressway - some of those could have been the plane that was behind the hijacked 727. Not hardly able to make that mistake with the Eastwardly siting. They may not have saw the plane - but they heard it. Some claimed what the witnesses heard was the search plane. Military wives know the difference between a large passenger plane, a small fast plane and a transport. I have lived around bases for yrs and I can also tell you the difference.Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MeyerLouie 5 #40168 May 16, 2013 RobertMBlevinsMeyerLouie says in part: Quote'I'm wondering if 305 could have been close enough to the start of the Gorge to have been affected by the severe winds that were blowing through there that night. Might that have affected the flight path? I don't know how close an aircraft would have to be to the Columbia River Gorge to be affected by its severe side winds and wind shears. If so, then it might mean 305 was further south and further east than was originally thought...' Don't you think the air traffic controllers and their radar would have noticed that? And in noticing that, the flight path map would have been adjusted? In your 'maybe they just got blown off course' world, planes would be doing mid-air collisions pretty regularly. I think the flight sim experiment being done by Shutter is a good thing, and could reveal much. However, one thing it CAN'T do is have two-way com with people on the ground who are tracking it by radar and giving the usual updates. So in this one way, it is limited. But only in this one way. _______________________________________________ You jumped all over 4 topics in one little paragraph. Focus dude, get back on the decaffeinated coffee -- one thing at a time. MrShutter45 said he noticed beng blown off course, Ratz also commented about being blown off course a bit. Remember reading that, or is it terminal amnesia for you? We were discussing why that happened, and evidence to indicate possible error in the LZ and search area. So, getting blown off course is going to cause plane crashes all over the place? Ever study vectors in relation to wind speed, wind direction, true direction, and actual ground speed of aircraft? Example: If you are flying from, say, LA to Seattle, and the jet stream is coming in pretty strong from due west, then the plane is not going to end up in Seattle if the pilot sets a due norh bearing. The jet stream is going to force the aircraft easterly, and the aircraft is going to end up in a place like Bozeman, MT. not Seattle. The pilot will have to set a true direction north by northwest if he/she wants to end up in Seattle. Pilots make these adjustments due to wind and weather all the time. In a sense, planes frequently and purposely fly off course (true direction) to arrive at the desired destination when wind becomes an issue. Basic navigation 101, Blevins. It's a simple addition of vectors. Planes are not going to be crashing into each other all the time. That's silly! MeyerLouie _______________________________________________ I don't think the problem is with the map. It's where Cooper jumped along that map. There is no solid evidence, even after more than four decades, that indicates it was inaccurate. ______________________________________________ I beg to differ. Actually there is evidence to indicate the exact opposite. What evidence do we have to indicate inaccuracy? The evidence we have is that there is no evidence. None of the items in Cooper's possession were ever found in the search area. You said a little earlier that one would think something would have turned up by now. Even Mr. H has admitted the search area was not correct. So, there is the possibility of error. Cooper may not have jumped when we think he did. The evidence -- the fact that there isn't any -- may indicate this is a possibility. That's all -- no more, no less. MeyerLouie _______________________________________________ Cooper was smart to send Mucklow forward. As we see now, even a three-minute window of doubt on the jump point means many square miles of search area. Establishing exactly when the flight engineer saw the stair indicator light flash OFF for that little moment will probably give you the moment that Cooper actually jumped from the plane. But even if you narrow it down to a single minute during the flight, this still leaves a three-mile corridor and the usual possibilities for drift. Because any information regarding this light will never be narrowed down to something WITHIN that minute, the exact jump point can never be known. Best you'll ever do is that three mile corridor, and even establishing that is difficult. _______________________________________________ I've bolded two of your statements -- they seem contradictory. That's an irregular thing for you. MeyerLouie Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mrshutter45 21 #40169 May 16, 2013 " In your 'maybe they just got blown off course' world " Robert, if you don't watch what you are doing in the air you will fly off course. it's called corrective action or variation and deviation. why would they have a Navigator on a plane if it was so easy to fly a straight line? An airplane is heading due south at a speed of 500 km/h. If a wind begins blowing from the southwest at a speed of 100 km/h, calculate the velocity of the plane relative to the ground, and how far off course it will be after 10 min. Answer: 435 km/h, 9.36 degrees east of south. so, this happens very often in the "blown off course world" " I don't think the problem is with the map. It's where Cooper jumped along that map. There is no solid evidence, even after more than four decades, that indicates it was inaccurate. " again, what do you do in order to figure out if Cooper jumped in a different location? pages back you claimed they knew exactly where Cooper jumped? the-first-step-would-be-re-doing-the-path-to-make-sure-the-minutes-are-as-they-have-them-on-the-map-if-this-is-incorrect-you-will-never-know-where-he-jumped. now you admit he could of jumped somewhere else, but don't think checking the path is a good idea because there is no solid evidence? you are very negative about a lot of things, tell me, how is it you can be so positive about KC? you must have some solid evidence? the most logical start would be from point A of a problem, not point E, F or G. you must start at the begining in order to conclude any facts."It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyjack71 0 #40170 May 16, 2013 Tina and I had a very limited conversation and it was not about the flight. I have had several conversations in the last 17 yrs with the co-pilot. He did talk about being able to see the lights near Vancover and Portland and remember he was in the co-pilots seat on the left. HE WAS IN THE CO-PILOTS SEAT ON THE RIGHT!Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
EVickiW 0 #40171 May 16, 2013 MeyerLouie Only one iota of anything was ever found (no parachute, no streamer, no briefcase, no moneybag, no loafers -- just the aft door placard) in the search area, and it's been said more than once, "You'd think something would have turned up by now." This is evidence (that's right, the lack of it) that Cooper most likely didn't jump here. Whatever algorithm or procedure was used to determine the jump zone, it was wrong. So, something is amiss. Moreover, the money find at Tena Bar might also indicate the calculations were off -- like maybe by quite a bit way off. Might Cooper have ended up more south and more east than what was originally estimated? Did we get faked out by that pressure bump? Entirely possible...... ***as for the body, chute and briefcase, all I can say is it's possible he could be out there or gone into the water, or just walked away........me don't know *** but does not have the time to figure out this new formatting...... http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/05/14/remains-in-colorado-car-identified-as-man-missing-since-187/ http://www.gjsentinel.com/breaking/articles/skeletal-remains-near-gateway-linked-to-26-year-old-case/ Sometimes people "disappear" and they could be closer than you would have ever imagined.Melvin Luther Wilson - Missing Person since September 1971: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=03QLnFvk8Fs Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BobKnoss 0 #40172 May 16, 2013 Claims to be blown east, countered by corrective action in flight path is how the flight attained the 20 miles to the west location Himmelbach was told about in his study. Parallel and west of five. 20 miles west of the recorded plotting at the time of the hijacking. Per the only one who would know. Just like I said before. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 6 #40173 May 16, 2013 Quotethe most logical start would be from point A of a problem, When a competent & experienced sport skydiver looks out & down prior to exit, in our 'minds-eye' we visualize possible landing areas in regard to the 'exact' exit point. You take kind of a 3D picture and superimpose what amounts roughly to an upside down funnel into that, with the aircraft door at the small end of the funnel. The 'size & shape' of the funnel are dictated by a number of variables...exit altitude, speed, freefall drift, opening altitude, wind speed & direction as well as canopy performance parameters. 'Spotting' for an exit point is basically making sure your intended landing site is at the center of this 'cone' of possible places you can go, once you've left the door. The reason I bring this up is... When mrshutter first started explaining his project 305, I thought to myself what a fantastic way of narrowing down a possible LZ with math & science in a way not considered prior. One could conceivably factor in ALL the variables and produce a map of sorts, showing 'only' the area of probability... After sifting through the last several pages it's becoming apparent to me anyway, the cone of possible LZ's is freakin' MASSIVE. Even with an exact track path & identifiable exit point, the winds & unknown opening altitude alone highlight an LZ 'cone' that would be extremely difficult to foot search. Throw in the possible variance on the track along with the ground covered from the time Cooper was known to be on the plane and known to be off...holy COW that's a big area! So...I started thinking project 305 may not be able to give a practical area of search considering the variables 'at this time', but is a very valuable tool to exclude - to a VERY certain degree - areas that absolutely could NOT be within that 'cone' I described. Am I wrong...doesn't the location of the placard fall WELL outside of the cone of possibility, from the information currently available? If so, that's troubling...because if it wasn't moved from where it landed that night, somebody's numbers are way off. ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Robert99 37 #40174 May 16, 2013 airtwardoQuotethe most logical start would be from point A of a problem, When a competent & experienced sport skydiver looks out & down prior to exit, in our 'minds-eye' we visualize possible landing areas in regard to the 'exact' exit point. You take kind of a 3D picture and superimpose what amounts roughly to an upside down funnel into that, with the aircraft door at the small end of the funnel. The 'size & shape' of the funnel are dictated by a number of variables...exit altitude, speed, freefall drift, opening altitude, wind speed & direction as well as canopy performance parameters. 'Spotting' for an exit point is basically making sure your intended landing site is at the center of this 'cone' of possible places you can go, once you've left the door. The reason I bring this up is... When mrshutter first started explaining his project 305, I thought to myself what a fantastic way of narrowing down a possible LZ with math & science in a way not considered prior. One could conceivably factor in ALL the variables and produce a map of sorts, showing 'only' the area of probability... After sifting through the last several pages it's becoming apparent to me anyway, the cone of possible LZ's is freakin' MASSIVE. Even with an exact track path & identifiable exit point, the winds & unknown opening altitude alone highlight an LZ 'cone' that would be extremely difficult to foot search. Throw in the possible variance on the track along with the ground covered from the time Cooper was known to be on the plane and known to be off...holy COW that's a big area! So...I started thinking project 305 may not be able to give a practical area of search considering the variables 'at this time', but is a very valuable tool to exclude - to a VERY certain degree - areas that absolutely could NOT be within that 'cone' I described. Am I wrong...doesn't the location of the placard fall WELL outside of the cone of possibility, from the information currently available? If so, that's troubling...because if it wasn't moved from where it landed that night, somebody's numbers are way off. The time and exact location that the placard separated from the airliner is not known. However, as shown on Tom Kaye's web page, the airliner was probably on the western edge of V-23 when the placard came off. I consider those numbers to be conservative, meaning that the airliner may have been further upwind, or to the southwest, than indicated by the calculations. In reality, the location where the placard separated from the aircraft is not material to the jump point but only to the track of the aircraft. And as has been pointed out on this and previous threads for several years, starting at least with Sluggo's early research, the times shown on the FBI maps are not valid. Tom Kaye essentially ruled out the Columbia River as a realistic means for the money to arrive at Tina Bar. The NW Lower River Road, which is built on top of a levee, basically rules out the possibility that the money arrived by water from Vancouver Lake or anything on the east side of Tina Bar. But the money did make it to Tina Bar and that is a "fact"! If it didn't get there horizontally, then about the only remaining option is vertically. In fact, the money at Tina Bar and the location of the placard are the only verifiable physical "facts" after the airliner left Seattle. So the inverted funnel that Airtwardo mentions must funnel Cooper into Tina Bar. Basically, the western edge of that funnel must be no further west that the western bank of the Columbia and the eastern edge must be west of the NW Lower River Road. If Cooper had landed in the Columbia River he would have gone downstream. So Cooper had to land on the narrow strip of land that is between the Columbia River and the NW Lower River Road. In addition, there is no evidence that the money travelled very far in any direction and that limits the north/south Cooper landing point. Robert99 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mrshutter45 21 #40175 May 16, 2013 airtwardo Quote the most logical start would be from point A of a problem, When a competent & experienced sport skydiver looks out & down prior to exit, in our 'minds-eye' we visualize possible landing areas in regard to the 'exact' exit point. You take kind of a 3D picture and superimpose what amounts roughly to an upside down funnel into that, with the aircraft door at the small end of the funnel. The 'size & shape' of the funnel are dictated by a number of variables...exit altitude, speed, freefall drift, opening altitude, wind speed & direction as well as canopy performance parameters. 'Spotting' for an exit point is basically making sure your intended landing site is at the center of this 'cone' of possible places you can go, once you've left the door. The reason I bring this up is... When mrshutter first started explaining his project 305, I thought to myself what a fantastic way of narrowing down a possible LZ with math & science in a way not considered prior. One could conceivably factor in ALL the variables and produce a map of sorts, showing 'only' the area of probability... After sifting through the last several pages it's becoming apparent to me anyway, the cone of possible LZ's is freakin' MASSIVE. Even with an exact track path & identifiable exit point, the winds & unknown opening altitude alone highlight an LZ 'cone' that would be extremely difficult to foot search. Throw in the possible variance on the track along with the ground covered from the time Cooper was known to be on the plane and known to be off...holy COW that's a big area! So...I started thinking project 305 may not be able to give a practical area of search considering the variables 'at this time', but is a very valuable tool to exclude - to a VERY certain degree - areas that absolutely could NOT be within that 'cone' I described. Am I wrong...doesn't the location of the placard fall WELL outside of the cone of possibility, from the information currently available? If so, that's troubling...because if it wasn't moved from where it landed that night, somebody's numbers are way off. Well, I'll try and explain my original thought once the project started. over a certain time period, one gains knowledge about things through books, internet, talking to peeps etc. I noticed a lot of confusion as to the probable place Cooper could have jumped. he landed in the water, no he is stuck on a tree etc. then I started noticing people talking about the path, whether it was correct in it's timing, or if the path was right. A little light bulb went off in my head, I have a simulator, I could try and fly the path they way they did. so, my intention is to validate the path, try and match everything done as they did. the weather, altitude, speed, direction and the weight of the plane. I don't think I can tell you where Cooper jumped, but, when I'm finished I should be able to tell you the flight path can be flown the way they presented it. if something is found not matching the FBI time frame, we now know where to correct the map and get it on track. my intention is not to tell you exactly where Cooper jumped, you need a time machine for that, but, it should give us firm information about the flight path itself. we have known problems in the time frames that Robert99 has done calculations on way before I was around. I have been able to verify those issues in question the first couple minutes of the flight. validation is a key word here, not where Cooper landed. that is a primary goal for all of us. this is why I can't explain enough that the path has to be checked in order to validate anything past that. I might find nothing wrong with the path, but, you will feel cozy inside knowing the path has been verfied and start moving forward from that point. you must start from point A in order to follow up ending with Z. if you go in between, how can you be sure of your position? worse case, the talk is Cooper landed further South, correct? what if the plane is one minute behind the known time frame, look out water ahead! 8:14,15 and 16 move forward and closer to the Columbia. we seem to question and ask for proof on everything tied to this case, why exclude the flight path? once everything is mastered, a video will be made, it will show the time, altitude, direction, coords, temps, wind direction, fuel flow etc. documenting minute by minute where the plane is on each step, you will see inside views and out. popcorn not included "It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
