DB Cooper

[airtwardo 6]

Quote

In addition, there is no evidence that the money travelled very far in any direction and that limits the north/south Cooper landing point.

Interesting assessment...

It would seem that with a bit of experimentation regarding drift that would be expected from the falling placard, one could get a reasonably accurate clue as to the 'actual' flight path...honing considerably the east - west possible parameters.

THAT certainly cuts down the size of the area I was imagining quite a bit.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[georger 197]

If Cooper had landed in the Columbia River he would have gone downstream. So Cooper had to land on the narrow strip of land that is between the Columbia River and the NW Lower River Road. In addition, there is no evidence that the money travelled very far in any direction and that limits the north/south Cooper landing point.

Robert99

Quote

Many things, not just Cooper money, get to Tina Bar and leave
Tina Bar, naturally. Everything from logs and lumber to things
described in the Palmer Report.

Maybe Blevins could give us a list of the things discussed in
the Palmer report, since he claims to have a copy?

It is somewhat interesting to me that in this decades old
soliloquy about the Tina Bar money, there has been no
discussion about how known things naturally get to Tina Bar;
except for a short discussion by 377 and Snowman early in this
thread, and Robert99 trying to incorporate flow and movement
into his thinking, Palmer etal trying to account for it in his
report, and Tom Kaye sequestering the Cooper money from
everything else that manages to find its way to Tina Bar by
natural means, to be found there by anyone!

Things arrive at Tina Bar and some things are retained for a
time and then move on; some things leaving artifacts behind
like nails etc. That is the natural story for any shoreline. For
everything that is but the DB Cooper money ... and the
Russian submarine which picked up Duane at Tina Bar and
moved out to deliver Duane back to Salt Lake City!

We have physics being suspended in the cabins of airliners,
Russian suibmarines that come and go in the Columbia, and DB
Cooper money which is immune to the natural forces of nature
in a water-borne environment!

[airtwardo 6]

Quote

I might find nothing wrong with the path

I know I'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer, and obviously haven't put as much thought into this as you have...

But am I misunderstanding something, or did in fact the placard land in a spot that would be considered 'upwind' of even the most liberal estimation of the currently accepted flight path?

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[mrshutter45 21]

airtwardo

Quote

I might find nothing wrong with the path

I know I'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer, and obviously haven't put as much thought into this as you have...

But am I misunderstanding something, or did in fact the placard land in a spot that would be considered 'upwind' of even the most liberal estimation of the currently accepted flight path?

I don't know much about the placard to give any response too, perhaps Robert99 or Georger......

"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI

[georger 197]

mrshutter45

***

Quote

I might find nothing wrong with the path

I know I'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer, and obviously haven't put as much thought into this as you have...

But am I misunderstanding something, or did in fact the placard land in a spot that would be considered 'upwind' of even the most liberal estimation of the currently accepted flight path?

I don't know much about the placard to give any response too, perhaps Robert99 or Georger......

Hominid did an analysis of the placard drop, using govt placard
drop test data (yes such tests were conducted).

The placard for all practical purposes is right under the FP
and obeyed the drift parameters assumed in the NWA DZ La
Center probability map - the white chart.

One central issue is: did those same winds (drift) apply if
Cooper bailed further south? Ckret and the FBI seem to assume
yes. Then if the FP itself needs adjustment south of the placard
drop point, how would that affect winds (drift)? The NWA la
Center chart basically assumes the same wind patterns in all
drop sectors, at least I think that is the case? Maybe R99 and
Hominid have a different opinion ... ??

What was the opening of the stairs when the placard left?

Also: It is my expectation the FBI etal are not going to give up
their current FP easily, unless and until 'convincing' contra-data
is presented with documentation. This is the conclusion of
those who have worked with the FBI etal on this issue. I
think we all already assumed that.

Let me review some notes tonight and maybe make a further
comment.

[mrshutter45 21]

here is something from Hominid......May 2012..enjoy

What does it take to demonstrate that the "FBI" flightpath chart is valid? That it truly shows, within the limits of its accuracy, the locations over which flight 305 passed after leaving SEATAC during the "Cooper" hijacking?

First, don't get sidetracked into looking at the flightpath plot with red and blue pushpin symbols, a broad green "path," and notations about positions according to plot and estimated positions. This is a product a person made from the original FBI chart. It's resolution is not nearly as good as the FBI chart, and the pretty symbols and green line obscure the plot positions. The "FBI" chart has positions marked by light red crosses.

Any "proof" that the flight was, at any time, within "x" miles of the centerline of "victor" ("VOR") airway V23 does not validate the flightpath plot. Such "proof" would only validate a contention that the flight at some point was close to the airway.

The best we can do is to verify that the plotted flightpath is consistent with the best information we have from other evidence. If the other evidence from the FBI and the flightpath were all provided as part of a conspiracy to obscure the truth, then consistency between the different pieces would be insignificant. But, if you believe that most of the info from the FBI has been truthful, that there has not been a "grand Cooper conspiracy," consistency of the pieces would indicate that the flightpath plot is truthful.

THE OTHER EVIDENCE

The other evidence applicable to the flightpath consists of the transcripts of communications, the NWA incident report, the crew notes, the '72 "searchzone" map, the placard, and the Tena Bar money find. We must prioritize these different pieces of evidence based on their precision with respect to locating the flight at different times. That is, the most important things with which the flightpath should be consistent are those things that are most precise and accurate.

Among the communication transcripts, there are three different types. There are transcripts of recordings of communications with practically zero time information. There are transcripts of recordings with times identified to the second. And there are the teletype communications with only the minutes at the ends of the communications logged when the messages were sent. Some communications of this last type could have been excluded since the different messages were stuck (taped?) together onto carrier pages.

Because the most accurate time info is on the one type of recording transcript, this transcript must be given highest priority. Use of the logged teletype messages must account for the fact that the times indicated are only the hour and minute portions of the time when the message was sent at varying times after the words were actually spoken and (approximately) typed into the teletype.

When analyzing the '72 searchzone map, again, don't get sidetracked and misled by the Google Earth image a person made by transfering his interpretation of positions into Google Earth. Don't just trust that the positions were correctly transferred into Google Earth. This image is of low resolution and shows practically zero features that can be used to determine the point locations. The black and white copy of a marked-up topo map is the original information and includes many recognizable features. It happens that a high resolution version of this is among the group files of the Yahoo research group site, and I can provide a copy to anyone who is interested (because I download/save everything).

The location of the placard tells us almost nothing about the flightpath. An analysis based on the placard's drag coefficient being unity is worthless for several reasons, including the fact that the placard very likely was bent and certainly would have picked up a heavy load of ice after falling the first 2000 feet.

The money find tells us something significant about the flightpath only if we are so stupid as to believe that the plane must have flown over Tena Bar because we don't understand how the money could have gotten there otherwise.

PLOT ACCURACY

What about the tolerances for the positions plotted on the flightpath chart?

Precise, detailed analysis of the chart reveals that the plotted positions were rounded to whole minutes of latitude and longitude. So the inaccuracy (likely errors) for the plot would be something plus a rounding error of ±.5 minutes for N-S and some other something plus the same rounding error for E-W. Because the radar from which the plane was tracked was at a bearing of approximately 45° from due south of the plane, the "something" errors (not including the rounding errors) reflecting the accuracy of the basic radar data would be approximately the same for N-S and E-W.

Equally precise, detailed analysis of the 1972 searchzone map reveals that the point "D" on the map is exactly the location annotated (probably incorrectly) as 2010 on the "FBI" chart, and that point "E" is exactly the location annotated as 2011 on the "FBI" chart. This means that the '72 searchzone map and the "FBI" flightpath chart were made from the same data set, and that the inaccuracies of the plotted positions on the two charts are identical.

The explanatory information that accompanied the '72 searchzone map indicated that the position tolerance for points drawn on that map was ±.5 nautical miles (nm). But the N-S tolerance for the FBI chart is ±.5' (which is ±.5nm) plus the "something". So the "something" must be so small as to be neglegible in order for the two tolerances to be the same.

Note that the ±.5' of longitude (E-W) does not equal ±.5nm as the ±.5' of latitude (N-S) does. Non-technical people typically do not understand the difference. Hence, the mistake is often made of equating a minute of longitude to a nautical mile of E-W. This was apparently the case in the explanation of position tolerance that was part of the explanation of the '72 searchzone map.

Conclusion: The position tolerances for the FBI flightpath chart plots is ±.5' of latitude and longitude. The plot positions should be within those tolerances of being what the actual aircraft positions were unless the chart is part of a conspiracy to confound the public.

"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI

[BruceSmith 3]

Pardon the interruption of the current FP discussion, but some interesting information has been posted on the Mountain News pertaining to Earl Cossey's murder.

I do not know if the following description of Coss is true, but I am posting it here because it is unique and revealing. I am in the process of corroborating these claims and will let you all know what I find.

*******************************

Clancy Crossroader commented on Update on the murder of Earl Cossey, an analysis of his role in the DB Cooper case

"I've known Coss for over 30 years, there's not a chance in hell his murder had anything to do with DB Cooper. Coss was a well known gambler, he loved action, on all sports games and played cards numerous times every week. He was an aggresive player and former math teacher. He was also financially secure with quite a few rentals and a property management company. I was surprised to hear he got divorced last year, but even if his property was cut in two he still owns has plenty of assets and his income from his teachers retiement, social security, property management and whatever rentals he retained. A cardroom scumbag killed Coss, or someone who knew he kept cash around for his daily gambling. I haven't played cards with Coss for a while, but guess he had between $5,000 and $25,000 in his cash bankroll. A wonderful person who toyed with everyone, he didn't suffer fools gladly."

[mrshutter45 21]

EVickiW

*** Only one iota of anything was ever found (no parachute, no streamer, no briefcase, no moneybag, no loafers -- just the aft door placard) in the search area, and it's been said more than once, "You'd think something would have turned up by now." This is evidence (that's right, the lack of it) that Cooper most likely didn't jump here. Whatever algorithm or procedure was used to determine the jump zone, it was wrong. So, something is amiss. Moreover, the money find at Tena Bar might also indicate the calculations were off -- like maybe by quite a bit way off. Might Cooper have ended up more south and more east than what was originally estimated? Did we get faked out by that pressure bump? Entirely possible......




***as for the body, chute and briefcase, all I can say is it's possible he could be out there or gone into the water, or just walked away........me don't know

***

but does not have the time to figure out this new formatting......

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/05/14/remains-in-colorado-car-identified-as-man-missing-since-187/

http://www.gjsentinel.com/breaking/articles/skeletal-remains-near-gateway-linked-to-26-year-old-case/






Sometimes people "disappear" and they could be closer than you would have ever imagined.


Thanks Vicki......and Howdy

"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI

[mrshutter45 21]

BruceSmith

Pardon the interruption of the current FP discussion, but some interesting information has been posted on the Mountain News pertaining to Earl Cossey's murder.

I do not know if the following description of Coss is true, but I am posting it here because it is unique and revealing. I am in the process of corroborating these claims and will let you all know what I find.

*******************************

Clancy Crossroader commented on Update on the murder of Earl Cossey, an analysis of his role in the DB Cooper case

"I've known Coss for over 30 years, there's not a chance in hell his murder had anything to do with DB Cooper. Coss was a well known gambler, he loved action, on all sports games and played cards numerous times every week. He was an aggresive player and former math teacher. He was also financially secure with quite a few rentals and a property management company. I was surprised to hear he got divorced last year, but even if his property was cut in two he still owns has plenty of assets and his income from his teachers retiement, social security, property management and whatever rentals he retained. A cardroom scumbag killed Coss, or someone who knew he kept cash around for his daily gambling. I haven't played cards with Coss for a while, but guess he had between $5,000 and $25,000 in his cash bankroll. A wonderful person who toyed with everyone, he didn't suffer fools gladly."

"but guess he had between $5,000 and $25,000 in his cash bankroll."

possible motive right there.......

"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI

[MeyerLouie 5]

mrshutter45

as for the body, chute and briefcase, all I can say is it's possible he could be out there or gone into the water, or just walked away........me don't know

Sometimes people "disappear" and they could be closer than you would have ever imagined.

_____________________________________________


All the more reason we need Blevins to get off his boney ass and get that search party organized!

MeyerLouie

[MeyerLouie 5]

BobKnoss

Claims to be blown east, countered by corrective action in flight path is how the flight attained the 20 miles to the west location Himmelbach was told about in his study. Parallel and west of five. 20 miles west of the recorded plotting at the time of the hijacking. Per the only one who would know. Just like I said before.

_______________________________________________

What about that? Seems like a reasonable question when you look at basic vector addition in terms of navigation.

MeyerLouie

[airtwardo 6]

Quote

The placard for all practical purposes is right under the FP
and obeyed the drift parameters assumed in the NWA DZ La
Center probability map - the white chart.

Ok then I'll start over when I get home tonight...I must have either the FP or the placard landing location plotted wrong.

Just for the sake of my own understanding, I found a 20 year old airline issued chart of the area... that's thumbnailed to the wall of the mancave at home.

Thought my coordinates were reasonably accurate...right under or down-wind is understandable & expected, I show several miles up-wind.

Guess I didn't 'measure twice - cut once', I try again.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[Robert99 37]

georger

If Cooper had landed in the Columbia River he would have gone downstream. So Cooper had to land on the narrow strip of land that is between the Columbia River and the NW Lower River Road. In addition, there is no evidence that the money travelled very far in any direction and that limits the north/south Cooper landing point.

Robert99

Quote

Many things, not just Cooper money, get to Tina Bar and leave
Tina Bar, naturally. Everything from logs and lumber to things
described in the Palmer Report.

Maybe Blevins could give us a list of the things discussed in
the Palmer report, since he claims to have a copy?

It is somewhat interesting to me that in this decades old
soliloquy about the Tina Bar money, there has been no
discussion about how known things naturally get to Tina Bar;
except for a short discussion by 377 and Snowman early in this
thread, and Robert99 trying to incorporate flow and movement
into his thinking, Palmer etal trying to account for it in his
report, and Tom Kaye sequestering the Cooper money from
everything else that manages to find its way to Tina Bar by
natural means, to be found there by anyone!

Things arrive at Tina Bar and some things are retained for a
time and then move on; some things leaving artifacts behind
like nails etc. That is the natural story for any shoreline. For
everything that is but the DB Cooper money ... and the
Russian submarine which picked up Duane at Tina Bar and
moved out to deliver Duane back to Salt Lake City!

We have physics being suspended in the cabins of airliners,
Russian suibmarines that come and go in the Columbia, and DB
Cooper money which is immune to the natural forces of nature
in a water-borne environment!



Logs, lumber, bloated bodies, etc. float. Tom Kaye's experiments show that money sinks. Eureka! The money didn't float down the river but was pushed to its discovery site by water running INTO the river.

The "torqued" bills, previously commented on in this thread, support that position. If Georger's witness to the money find is correct in stating that the money was found "flat side down", then the bills would be stationary on the bank in essentially a horizontal position lengthwise when they were "torqued".

Robert99

[Robert99 37]

airtwardo

Quote

The placard for all practical purposes is right under the FP
and obeyed the drift parameters assumed in the NWA DZ La
Center probability map - the white chart.

Ok then I'll start over when I get home tonight...I must have either the FP or the placard landing location plotted wrong.

Just for the sake of my own understanding, I found a 20 year old airline issued chart of the area... that's thumbnailed to the wall of the mancave at home.

Thought my coordinates were reasonably accurate...right under or down-wind is understandable & expected, I show several miles up-wind.

Guess I didn't 'measure twice - cut once', I try again.

You are home free on this one. Don't forget that the conversion from NAD29, I think it was, to WGS84 was about the mid-1980s. The actual conversions in the Portland area was less than 200 feet total for several checks that I made.

In addition, check Farflung's maps for an explanation of about a 2+ nautical mile east to west movement of some of the geographical features between the Mayfield/Malay Intersection and the Portland/Battleground VORTAC on V-23.

Robert99

[Robert99 37]

mrshutter45

***

Quote

I might find nothing wrong with the path

I know I'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer, and obviously haven't put as much thought into this as you have...

But am I misunderstanding something, or did in fact the placard land in a spot that would be considered 'upwind' of even the most liberal estimation of the currently accepted flight path?

I don't know much about the placard to give any response too, perhaps Robert99 or Georger......

That placard is going to be blown downwind. And from the actual surface observations, plus the winds aloft forecasts for the entire area, very near the time of the airliner passing through the Portland area the winds were from a southerly to southwesterly direction from the surface to 10,000 feet.

In addition, the placard was found at an elevation of about 1500 feet which means it had a free fall of only about 8500 feet.

Robert99

[Robert99 37]

georger

******

Quote

I might find nothing wrong with the path

I know I'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer, and obviously haven't put as much thought into this as you have...

But am I misunderstanding something, or did in fact the placard land in a spot that would be considered 'upwind' of even the most liberal estimation of the currently accepted flight path?

I don't know much about the placard to give any response too, perhaps Robert99 or Georger......

Hominid did an analysis of the placard drop, using govt placard
drop test data (yes such tests were conducted).

The placard for all practical purposes is right under the FP
and obeyed the drift parameters assumed in the NWA DZ La
Center probability map - the white chart.

One central issue is: did those same winds (drift) apply if
Cooper bailed further south? Ckret and the FBI seem to assume
yes. Then if the FP itself needs adjustment south of the placard
drop point, how would that affect winds (drift)? The NWA la
Center chart basically assumes the same wind patterns in all
drop sectors, at least I think that is the case? Maybe R99 and
Hominid have a different opinion ... ??

What was the opening of the stairs when the placard left?

Also: It is my expectation the FBI etal are not going to give up
their current FP easily, unless and until 'convincing' contra-data
is presented with documentation. This is the conclusion of
those who have worked with the FBI etal on this issue. I
think we all already assumed that.

Let me review some notes tonight and maybe make a further
comment.

I think about ever bit of wind and weather data plus forecasts for the time of the hijacking are already on this thread courtesy, apparently, of Ckret.

Also, note that the ground winds for the various locations along the flight route are essentially the same. Same for the winds aloft forecasts.

Basically, weather was not a problem for the hijacked airliner.

Robert99

[mrshutter45 21]

MeyerLouie

***Claims to be blown east, countered by corrective action in flight path is how the flight attained the 20 miles to the west location Himmelbach was told about in his study. Parallel and west of five. 20 miles west of the recorded plotting at the time of the hijacking. Per the only one who would know. Just like I said before.

_______________________________________________

What about that? Seems like a reasonable question when you look at basic vector addition in terms of navigation.

MeyerLouie

I don't think Knoss understands the area very well. 15 miles west puts the path over 3 miles on the west side of the Columbia. this would be using Battleground as the furthest point east. 20 miles and you are lost in the west.....

The United States Government would never have done a exercise as he claims. they would not allow this to continue the way it has spanning decades. once they realized it was out of control, I can assure you they would of planted a body to be found and put an end to it. Hogwash I say. Bob locks onto weak spots and cleverly pops in with an answer to the weak spot. no logic behind his scam, it would be much easier to simply implement new laws. did the planes fly into the towers to bring the failed Cooper mission back into play? where does it end.......

"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI

[MeyerLouie 5]

Clancy Crossroader commented on Update on the murder of Earl Cossey, an analysis of his role in the DB Cooper case

"I've known Coss for over 30 years, there's not a chance in hell his murder had anything to do with DB Cooper. Coss was a well known gambler, he loved action, on all sports games and played cards numerous times every week. He was an aggresive player and former math teacher. He was also financially secure with quite a few rentals and a property management company. I was surprised to hear he got divorced last year, but even if his property was cut in two he still owns has plenty of assets and his income from his teachers retiement, social security, property management and whatever rentals he retained. A cardroom scumbag killed Coss, or someone who knew he kept cash around for his daily gambling. I haven't played cards with Coss for a while, but guess he had between $5,000 and $25,000 in his cash bankroll. A wonderful person who toyed with everyone, he didn't suffer fools gladly."

_____________________________________________


Hmmm... a friend of 30 years is surprised to hear about the divorce of a financially well-to-do friend. Is it just me, or is that a red flag? So, half of the spoils still leaves husband and wife both rich? How many times has that kept anyone from doing dasdardly things to keep it all to themselves. I think you can see who my suspect is.... just thinking out loud....

MeyerLouie

[mrshutter45 21]

"between $5,000 and $25,000 in his cash bankroll"


like I said before, there is motive.....

"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI

[377 21]

Mr Shutter wrote

Quote

I am not wrong. I seen the clip. I didn't see any stairs nor did that tell the speed the plane was traveling. big difference, it was a static line jump. is that what cooper did??? it was similar, but not the same.....

You can get an upper limit estimate on the 727 speed during the Thailand drops. The photo plane appears to be a turboprop Beech 18 conversion, probably a Hamilton Westwind or a Volpar. Air America had a few turboprop Beech 18s.

http://www.utdallas.edu/library/specialcollections/hac/cataam/Leeker/aircraft/vtb.pdf

http://beechrestorations.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/newsletter-12-supplement.pdf

The Volpars had a top speed of around 245 mph. No reason to go fast for those S/L jumps, so my guess is less than 170 mph. Georger or Snow could probably calculate speed from the jumper trajectory plots. That's beyond my pay grade.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[skyjack71 0]

What I do know is that Kaye and Palmer indicated the money had NOT been in the water for 9 yrs.

ALL I do know is that I was with Weber in 1979 and he went to the WATER alone in 3 places.

For yrs I searched high and low for a man by the name of Nuestel, Newsom, Newell - all I could remember was the sound alike names. I found him quiet by chance.

This man had tried desperately to get the authorities to provide him with amnesty after reading the articles about Cooper when I went public in 2001 by going to WA and when Margie did all of those articles.

When I was told about this man's plight and learned his 1st name - then I remember - how unusual his 1st name was and what they called him ----. I was NOT too far off with the sound of the name.

Palmer and Kaye have NOT contended the money was in the river for 9yrs. I was with Duane in 1979 when he made 3 stops and on more than one occassion talked about a man he used to know.

I accidently found out who that man was. The man had tried to obtain amnesty in 2000 after reading the articles about Duane Weber. He would later die without being able to tell his story. I did not find this man until it was too late and the individuals I spoke with were NEVER told what he needed to share in regards to Cooper. It was proposed that he himself was Cooper, but perhaps NO one will ever know!

What I do know is that Duane and this man KNEW each other and Duane put that money on that beach in Sept of 1979. I believe he also disposed of money right across from the PDX and just a little West of there. A piece of relatively high land that later 4 homes were built on by the time I went to WA in 2001.
If that was NOT the exact location it was the next road East off of Evergreen. Who owned those properties? Well, the county records show who owned those properties prior to 1971.

Heaven only knows what was in the paper bag - thrown into the water at the base of the bridge where the Red Lion was located.

JN may you rest in peace and hopefully there was a written accounting of what you did or tried to do from 2000 until your death.

Your attorney has deceased and no one know where your records are and it was my understanding you did NOT tell your attorney what you had to reveal, but that it was in relation to Dan Cooper.

You had information and you wanted amnesty. You were denied and told that would have to come from a Federal judge and that the governor of the state of WA could not grant you that amnesty.

NOW it is just a matter of finding a picture of YOU and Duane in one place and it then it will be up to the public to decide who was what and what who knew! Cooper was NOT unknown to all You were that Indian boy he got in trouble with. You guys were young way back then and I have never been able to remember the riddle Duane used to say he learn while spending time with you and your family - nor did he ever tell me what you two did that was so very bad.

Duane did tell me he could NEVER go back there, but I did NOT know that you were there. Now I have Duane and One Indian Boy, but I do not know all of the story. I have tried to find your family, but had NO luck! Some nut put a different riddle in my mind and it blacked out the riddle Duane told me the 2 of you used to quote - obviously you 2 guys got in lots of trouble...

It was your father or grandfather that would recite that riddle everytime you guys did things you were not supposed to do.

YEA, guys - you think this a riddle, but it is the riddle that unraveled this case. Recited on an Indian Reservation near Coure d' alene many many yrs ago...

NO BK it is NOT your fabricated riddlle. YOU make me physically ill and feel the need to puke!

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[mrshutter45 21]

377

Mr Shutter wrote

Quote

I am not wrong. I seen the clip. I didn't see any stairs nor did that tell the speed the plane was traveling. big difference, it was a static line jump. is that what cooper did??? it was similar, but not the same.....

You can get an upper limit estimate on the 727 speed during the Thailand drops. The photo plane appears to be a turboprop Beech 18 conversion, probably a Hamilton Westwind or a Volpar. Air America had a few turboprop Beech 18s.

http://www.utdallas.edu/library/specialcollections/hac/cataam/Leeker/aircraft/vtb.pdf

http://beechrestorations.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/newsletter-12-supplement.pdf

The Volpars had a top speed of around 245 mph. No reason to go fast for those S/L jumps, so my guess is less than 170 mph. Georger or Snow could probably calculate speed from the jumper trajectory plots. That's beyond my pay grade.

377

170 MPH or Knots? I still find the clip intersting, but, we have trained paratroopers jumping out of the back that has been modified. I stick to my first conclusion of it not being the same. I think the movie "The Pursuit Of DB Cooper" has more similarities in it than the static line jump.....

I like the Zero's on the Beach 18 page

"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI

[377 21]

Quote

170 MPH or Knots? I still find the clip intersting, but, we have trained paratroopers jumping out of the back that has been modified. I stick to my first conclusion of it not being the same. I think the movie "The Pursuit Of DB Cooper" has more similarities in it than the static line jump.....

If Cooper faced forward and pulled while on the stairs, the jump would be very similar to the Thailand S/L jumps. If he did a freefall then they are enormously different.

If I had known about the Thailand 727 jumps and had to jump from a 727 at night with a potentially destabilizing payload, I would have faced forward and pulled while standing on the stairs. GUARANTEED stability. No tumble, no spin. Just some opening shock (actually quite mild judging by the video) and a ride to the ground.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[skyjack71 0]

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The placard for all practical purposes is right under the FP
and obeyed the drift parameters assumed in the NWA DZ La
Center probability map - the white chart.

One central issue is: did those same winds (drift) apply if
Cooper bailed further south? Ckret and the FBI seem to assume yes.

Edited out

What was the opening of the stairs when the placard left?

I do not know who said what and I edited out things I have no knowledge with which to reply about.

What I will reply to the above is just plane old common sense!

The stairwell was NOT all the way down until Cooper started to ascend down the aft way! Right?

The location of the placard on the plane was where? At the top of the stairwell, inside the plane or inside the encasement? How was the placared attached. Glue or whatever?

The answer to these questions will help you guys arrive at the best possible answer regarding the placard.

Good Luck! Do not forget that a man and a chute - and the winds were NOT in a straight LINE and they were variable. Remember the weight of this placard versus a man's weight in freefall.

This was ALL discussed previously, but think about it again - because of the simulation which I am NOT sure is not just someone playing a game. Since I stay OUT of the technology - I am only offering DUMB woman questions.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[Robert99 37]

mrshutter45

here is something from Hominid......May 2012..enjoy

The location of the placard tells us almost nothing about the flightpath. An analysis based on the placard's drag coefficient being unity is worthless for several reasons, including the fact that the placard very likely was bent and certainly would have picked up a heavy load of ice after falling the first 2000 feet.

The money find tells us something significant about the flightpath only if we are so stupid as to believe that the plane must have flown over Tena Bar because we don't understand how the money could have gotten there otherwise.

To the best of my knowledge, I have not seen previously the Hominid post that Shutter quotes. I would like to comment on the extracts above from that post.

Again to the best of my knowledge, Hominid has never revealed any training or experience that he may have in the field of aerodynamics. It would be interesting, at least for me, to know the basis for some of his statements above.

Apparently Hominid is criticizing a free-fall analysis of the placard that I did for Tom Kaye and which is presented on Tom Kaye's web page.

But Hominid's claim that the placard does not tell us anything about the airliner's flight path is nonsense. And the same goes for his remarks about the money found at Tina Bar.

Bent or not, the placard will have a drag coefficient approximating 1.0. If you don't believe the report I cited (primarily because it was available free online and thus available to any reader of this thread) in the calculations that appear on Tom Kaye's site, then consult Dr. Sighard F. Hoerner's books on Fluid-Dynamic Drag and Fluid-Dynamic Lift, or any standard aerodynamics textbook.

Hominid's claim that the placard "certainly would have picked up a heavy load of ice after falling the first 2000 feet" has no basis in fact.

First, there is no evidence that it was even raining at the time and location the placard separated from the airliner. And there is certainly no evidence of a heavy rainfall, meaning "big" raindrops.

Second, the possibility of rain drops (assuming they were even present during the free-fall) affecting the descent of the placard was considered in the analysis at Tom Kaye's suggestion.

For those interested, Google "raindrop falling speeds", or something along that line, and you will find some very interesting information. Basically, misty type raindrops fall at a very low speed and "big" raindrops such as from a heavy rain fall much faster.

The calculated falling speed of the placard was in the middle of the speed range for raindrops. Since there was no evidence of a heavy rain or "big" raindrops in the area where the placard parted ways with the aircraft, it is entirely possible that any raindrops (assuming they were there in the first place) could have slowed down the descent of the placard.

That would have made the free-fall calculations even more conservative than those presented on Tom Kaye's web page. Meaning that the placard could have parted from the aircraft further upwind than shown in the analysis. I don't consider the claims about icing to be of any significance.

Hominid's comments dismissing the significance of the money found at Tina Bar is difficult to comprehend. It would be utterly foolish to ignore one of only two pieces of evidence that show the flight path of the airliner after it left Seattle.

As to how the money got to Tina Bar, I would suggest considering gravity, wind, and water, in that order.

Robert99