DB Cooper

[dudeman17 270]

I have a couple questions...

 

Pardon me if I have this wrong, but about Tina - Until the recent RS interview, and the movie thing(?), she was somewhat media shy, right? I know she appeared on at least one TV special, but after the event, she didn't like being associated with it? Didn't she at one point abscond herself to a nunnery? If that's right, does someone know exactly when that was, month and year?

 

Olemiss, in the beginning of that stream thing you did recently with Nicky, you said you had a list of like 400(?) possible suspects? Where do those come from? FBI files, conjecture from yourself and others, some combination? Is there a way I could see that list?

[olemisscub 466]

11 hours ago, dudeman17 said:

I have a couple questions...

 

Pardon me if I have this wrong, but about Tina - Until the recent RS interview, and the movie thing(?), she was somewhat media shy, right? I know she appeared on at least one TV special, but after the event, she didn't like being associated with it? Didn't she at one point abscond herself to a nunnery? If that's right, does someone know exactly when that was, month and year?

 

Olemiss, in the beginning of that stream thing you did recently with Nicky, you said you had a list of like 400(?) possible suspects? Where do those come from? FBI files, conjecture from yourself and others, some combination? Is there a way I could see that list?

I want to say that she joined the convent sometime in the very early 80's, because I believe she worked for NWA for another 9 or 10 years after the hijacking. I think a lot of the Cooper witnesses and participants were somewhat media shy because of what happened in the late 70's with the Coffelt stuff. Flo, Tina, Rat, and others were talking pretty freely to this movie producer from Hollywood who was trying to make some production based on Coffelt's story. There's a 302 where the FBI admonishes all of them and basically says "we can't stop you from talking to whomever you wish, but you need to understand that if you provide anyone with any information that could hurt the investigation in any way, you can be prosecuted." So I think that shut them up for quite a while. 

Tina was always a very religious and empathetic person. I don't think her going to the convent had anything whatsoever to do with Cooper. 

My list of suspects is just compiled of names in the FBI Files and names that others have put forward. I'll PM it to you. 

[georger 197]

On 3/24/2024 at 12:43 PM, olemisscub said:

I want to say that she joined the convent sometime in the very early 80's, because I believe she worked for NWA for another 9 or 10 years after the hijacking. I think a lot of the Cooper witnesses and participants were somewhat media shy because of what happened in the late 70's with the Coffelt stuff. Flo, Tina, Rat, and others were talking pretty freely to this movie producer from Hollywood who was trying to make some production based on Coffelt's story. There's a 302 where the FBI admonishes all of them and basically says "we can't stop you from talking to whomever you wish, but you need to understand that if you provide anyone with any information that could hurt the investigation in any way, you can be prosecuted." So I think that shut them up for quite a while. 

Tina was always a very religious and empathetic person. I don't think her going to the convent had anything whatsoever to do with Cooper. 

My list of suspects is just compiled of names in the FBI Files and names that others have put forward. I'll PM it to you. 

agree ...  well stated.

Edited March 26 by georger

[Cola 26]

On 3/24/2024 at 5:43 PM, olemisscub said:

 

 

Olemisscub, any insight on what the average ransom ask was for the copy cats?

I have always though Coops was low given Cini's starting point. Possibly Coops asked based on what he knew Cini was able to receive. Anyone have any reference for what other take me to Cuba type extortionist asked for on the whole?      

 

Cini asked for 1.5 million got 50K

Coops asked for and received 200k

McCoy asked for and received 500,000

 

 

[The Cooper Vortex 73]

New episode out now! DB Cooper is like playing Best Ball with my good friend Chris Broer.

https://www.podbean.com/eas/pb-mdyit-15c5483

Enjoy!

[olemisscub 466]

7 hours ago, Cola said:

 

Olemisscub, any insight on what the average ransom ask was for the copy cats?

I have always though Coops was low given Cini's starting point. Possibly Coops asked based on what he knew Cini was able to receive. Anyone have any reference for what other take me to Cuba type extortionist asked for on the whole?      

 

Cini asked for 1.5 million got 50K

Coops asked for and received 200k

McCoy asked for and received 500,000

 

 

Unless they were asking for some preposterous amount, the hijackers usually got what they asked for.

LaPoint asked for a measly 50k and got it

Hahneman wanted 303k and got it

McNally asked for 502k and got it

Heady asked for 200k and got it 

Francis Goodell asked for 450k and got it

Holder and Kerkow asked for 500k and got it

The only one who I'm aware of who was short changed (who wasn't asking for millions) was Melvin Fisher He was the copycat who had the money tied to him with stairs lowered but lost his nerve and didn't jump. He asked for 550k and got 200k

 

[JAGdb 71]

On 3/19/2024 at 8:42 PM, The Cooper Vortex said:

New Episode out now! DB Cooper's Bomb with Sergeant Major Mike Vining, US Army Retired. 

https://thecoopervortex.podbean.com/e/db-coopers-bomb-sargent-major-mike-vining-us-army-retired/

Enjoy!

I'm a little behind, so catching up on some of these episodes now...

First let me say that Sergeant Major Mike Vining is a class act. Not only is he an explosives expert, but he also had sky diving background, you couldn't ask for more as a guest.  He tended to drift off the topic of the bomb a little, Darren did a nice job trying to refocus him.   He did leave me wanting a little more..in particular, I wish he spoke a little more on whether the description of the bomb indicated the presence of the blasting caps he kept bringing up or not.  (I guess it didn't) 

I was a little shocked when he said he knew people who jumped out of 727s, I was hoping he was going to go into that a little more.  How could he possibly have known ?  Was he saying he was familiar with the Air America stuff, I thought that was all top secret ?  

Before I listened to this episode, (I actually listened to it 3 times), I was of the belief that:

- The bomb was most likely fake

- That Cooper had some military background in explosives

After listening, based on what Sergeant Mike said about the size of the battery, the lack of "dynamite" wording on the sticks, and his comments on the seemingly amateur and senseless trigger mechanism of having to touch two wires together, I am still in "the bomb was fake" camp. But I no longer feel that Cooper had a background in explosives.  I think it was a bluff 100% of the way, he only needed to convince the stewardesses and the brief case bomb may have been right out hollywood central casting for this purpose.  I think Fly posted about the movie "Airport" from 1970 where there was a brief case bomb, maybe that was an inspiration?   

On a side note, was the question of whether he was suicidal or not and how that is tied to the question of the bomb being real or fake.  I don't necessarily think one implies the other. While he did say that he wouldn't be taken alive, this could have been a bluff as well.  But even if it was not, I don't get the vibe that he was willing to take everyone with him.  Maybe he had a pistol in the bag or even the brief case that he would have used to go down swinging so to speak.  Anyway, all conjecture and subjective on my part.

Question to Oldmiss, were any of the other copy cats suicidal or willing to actually take the plane and the passengers out if they didn't get their money ?

 

[olemisscub 466]

5 hours ago, JAGdb said:

 

I was a little shocked when he said he knew people who jumped out of 727s, I was hoping he was going to go into that a little more.  How could he possibly have known ?  Was he saying he was familiar with the Air America stuff, I thought that was all top secret ?  

 

He was talking about people who did it recreationally for fun. My ears also perked up as soon as he said but then I realized he was referring to the skydiving fad of "pulling a Cooper". It was a thing for a while to jump out the back of a 727 at skydiving events. 

 

[Cola 26]

Provocation Fridays:

 

Anyone care to put their imagination to work?

Should you choose to take this on. The assignment for the next 2 weeks is to write a fictional account of Cooper starting form one of these lead ins:

- What I have to say goes like this

- I landed in

- It were my grudge that were my trouble

- I noticed that

Or chose your own lead in..

Thinking 500-800+ words or more, should take 2-5 hours to write.

Narrative style from the view of Cooper or from another characters view...

Will check back in two week time to see what stories percolate up. 

This is all for fun.

Edited March 29 by Cola

[Math of Insects 96]

The act itself is fundamentally suicidal. There was no reason to think it wouldn't end in death, injury or prison, since the previous versions all had. Success was not the expected outcome. 

It was a desperate act done by someone for whom the cost of failure was not a deterrent.

[dudeman17 270]

On 3/29/2024 at 9:26 AM, olemisscub said:

He was talking about people who did it recreationally for fun. My ears also perked up as soon as he said but then I realized he was referring to the skydiving fad of "pulling a Cooper". It was a thing for a while to jump out the back of a 727 at skydiving events. 

This wasn't hugely common due to the logistics, but happened primarily for a few years at the annual World Freefall Convention, earlier known as the Freak Brothers Convention. This was an annual event thrown by Roger Nelson, an early skydiving pioneer and marijuana smuggler. Roger was an interesting, colorful, and ballsy character. Those interested in Cooper-type adventures may want to read the book 'Sugar Alpha: The Life and Times of Señor Huevos Grandes', written from Roger's notes by his daughter Melissa Nelson. It covers his smuggling days and is a great read.

[WalterRaleigh 8]

On 3/24/2024 at 12:43 PM, olemisscub said:

My list of suspects is just compiled of names in the FBI Files and names that others have put forward. I'll PM it to you. 

Did this man ever appear in the FBI files, or in any other suspect theory?  I believe his name is Don Molitor. 

Here he is pictured with Lyle Cameron (light colored jumpsuit).

[kcaero 3]

We had a guy at Ripcord Para Center who resembled the drawing of DB Cooper.. Even smoked Raleigh cigarettes. No one ever investigated him

[Nicholas Broughton 53]

9 hours ago, WalterRaleigh said:

Did this man ever appear in the FBI files, or in any other suspect theory?  I believe his name is Don Molitor. 

Here he is pictured with Lyle Cameron (light colored jumpsuit).

I came across him he was one of the pioneers of the sport along with LC but nothing to connect and a marking on his chin. 

[DanCooperHimself 9]

The Questionable Efficacy of the D.B. Cooper Likenesses: A Sketchy Basis for Identification 

At the heart of the enduring intrigue and continued investigation are the sketches—images of the suspect as recounted by eyewitnesses. However, these sketches, while iconic, should be viewed with a considerable degree of scepticism. The assertion that someone might be a person of interest based on a resemblance to a sketch is, upon scrutiny, deeply problematic. 

Here's the rationale:

First and foremost, the existence of two markedly different sketches underscores the inherent unreliability and subjectivity inherent in their production. Composite sketches are derived from human memory, which is notably unreliable and prone to alteration—especially when under duress. Witnesses of the hijacking experienced considerable stress, and it stands to reason that their recollections of Cooper's visage were compromised by this. 

The sketches amplify this issue by presenting conflicting interpretations of Cooper's features. If we find ourselves unable to reconcile the disparities between two likenesses intended to represent the same individual, how can we possibly rely on them as definitive means of identification?

It is also crucial to remember that these are drawings, not photographs. Artists can only capture so much from verbal accounts, and their individual style, coupled with the influence of suggestive questioning, can greatly impact the final depiction. A sketch can only offer a resemblance, not an exact replication. It cannot encapsulate the subtleties of a person's face with the accuracy of a photograph. Consequently, the idea that an individual could be conclusively linked to a crime based on a sketch likeness is fundamentally unsound.

Consider the described features of 'Cooper'—a protruding lower lip, a narrow face, middle-aged. These characteristics are not distinctive identifiers; rather, they are fairly commonplace and could apply to an extensive number of men from that time period. Venturing into a crowd in search of these features, one would likely encounter multiple men fitting the description. It's akin to searching for a specific needle in a haystack, except the haystack is as vast as a nation, and the needle may not even resemble the preconceived image.

The passage of time and the inevitability of physical transformation further erode the reliability of the sketches. As years pass, people age, their features alter, weights fluctuate, and hairstyles evolve. The sketches represent a moment in time, one that rapidly diminishes in relevance as the years accumulate. It's conceivable that even Cooper himself, if viewing the sketches in the present day, might fail to recognise the man in the drawing as his former self.

Finally, the psychological element must be considered. The yearning for resolution in a mystery as captivating as Cooper's can result in confirmation bias—the tendency to perceive what one wishes to perceive in a sketch while discounting inconsistencies. Consequently, numerous individuals have been unduly scrutinised based on these sketches, their lives disrupted by an unsubstantiated association with a notorious crime.

Although the D.B. Cooper sketches are emblematic components of this enigmatic narrative, their utility as instruments for identification is highly dubious. They are not photographs but interpretations filtered through the flawed apparatus of human recollection and perception. To propose that someone might be a person of interest because they bear a resemblance to these sketches is to indulge in speculative guesswork. The true identity of D.B. Cooper remains as elusive as the man himself, and it is doubtful that these sketches will ever lead us to a conclusive answer. Instead, what they offer is a canvas for our collective imaginations—a visage to assign to a faceless tale, but ultimately, we should recognise them for what they are—artefacts of ambiguity, not incriminating evidence.

[The Cooper Vortex 73]

17 hours ago, kcaero said:

We had a guy at Ripcord Para Center who resembled the drawing of DB Cooper.. Even smoked Raleigh cigarettes. No one ever investigated him

I’m listening. 

[olemisscub 466]

15 hours ago, Nicholas Broughton said:

I came across him he was one of the pioneers of the sport along with LC but nothing to connect and a marking on his chin. 

Looked into him. He did have an arrest in 1963 for assaulting a couple of Sheriff's deputies, but nothing else stood out. 

The main hesitation for me to consider anyone who was an actual recreational skydiver is that Cooper would have brought his own chute if he was one of them. I've not spoken to any skydivers on the topic who would have trusted random chutes given to them. We can see it play out with our two copycats who were actual skydivers, McCoy and Heady. Both of them brought their own chutes with them. 

Cooper may have had a few freefalls (I suspect he did), but I don't think he was into skydiving enough to own personal gear, otherwise he'd have smuggled it on board like McCoy and Heady did. 

[olemisscub 466]

In case anyone is interested in watching tonight...

 

[Chaucer 103]

The FBI was so honed in to the skydiving community and the community itself then was so tight knit, that I doubt "one of their own" would be able to pull it off and either A. not be found out or B. not eventually spilling the beans. 

[olemisscub 466]

Latest Vault release might be the very first Vault release where there was literally nothing of value in it. 

[Chaucer 103]

HEY FBI GIVE US THE FULL TRANSCRIPT OF COMMUNICATIONS BETWEEN FLIGHT 305 AND NWA GROUND PERSONNEL

SINCERELY,

THE VORTEX

[Robert99 37]

4 hours ago, Chaucer said:

HEY FBI GIVE US THE FULL TRANSCRIPT OF COMMUNICATIONS BETWEEN FLIGHT 305 AND NWA GROUND PERSONNEL

SINCERELY,

THE VORTEX

It would also be nice if the FBI permitted the release of the Air Traffic Control communication transcripts between the Seattle Center and the airliner.

It should be remembered that the Air Traffic Control communications transcripts between the Oakland Center and the airliner were released decades ago. 

[Chaucer 103]

21 minutes ago, Robert99 said:

It would also be nice if the FBI permitted the release of the Air Traffic Control communication transcripts between the Seattle Center and the airliner.

It should be remembered that the Air Traffic Control communications transcripts between the Oakland Center and the airliner were released decades ago. 

Those transcripts were released many years ago:

https://norjak.org/files/

[Robert99 37]

53 minutes ago, Chaucer said:

Those transcripts were released many years ago:

https://norjak.org/files/

Chaucer, you are mistaken.  All you have to do to understand this is to compare the Seattle ATC transcripts with the Oakland ATC transcripts which are textbook versions of how actual radio transcripts from the 1971 era looked.  This has been pointed out on this forum for about the last 15 years.

Also, if you had any experience communicating with ATC Centers or FAA control towers in the 1971-time frame, you would already know this. 

[Chaucer 103]

5 minutes ago, Robert99 said:

Chaucer, you are mistaken.  All you have to do to understand this is to compare the Seattle ATC transcripts with the Oakland ATC transcripts which are textbook versions of how actual radio transcripts from the 1971 era looked.  This has been pointed out on this forum for about the last 15 years.

Also, if you had any experience communicating with ATC Centers or FAA control towers in the 1971-time frame, you would already know this. 

This has been pointed out by you and only you. In 15 years, you have presented no evidence that the Seattle ATC transcripts are incorrect, inaccurate, or incomplete.