DB Cooper

[Robert99 37]

28 minutes ago, Chaucer said:

This has been pointed out by you and only you. In 15 years, you have presented no evidence that the Seattle ATC transcripts are incorrect, inaccurate, or incomplete. 

You are mistaken again.  It has been pointed out repeatedly that efforts to obtain the unredacted Seattle ATC radio transcripts end up at the FBI with very little if anything being released.

The FAA is mandated to retain such transcripts but efforts to get them from the FAA are rerouted to the FBI.  There is nothing secret about the transcripts since anyone with a VHF radio receiver could listen in on them during the actual hijacking.

[Chaucer 103]

As has been pointed out to you repeatedly, there is no evidence of redactions in the Seattle ATC radio transcripts. 

[Robert99 37]

7 hours ago, Chaucer said:

As has been pointed out to you repeatedly, there is no evidence of redactions in the Seattle ATC radio transcripts. 

Chaucer & Georger, please enlighten me on how many years experience each of you have in communicating with air traffic control facilities and listening to air traffic transmissions?

Also, if you feel that the Seattle ATC transcripts are complete, you should inform the FBI headquarters.  In my involvement with the FBI, which includes senior FBI officials and assistance from my US Congressman, they have never made such a claim. 

And their actions have repeatedly indicated that the Seattle ATC transcripts which have been released are redacted.  The Oakland ATC transcripts appear to be complete. 

[Chaucer 103]

9 hours ago, Robert99 said:

Chaucer & Georger, please enlighten me on how many years experience each of you have in communicating with air traffic control facilities and listening to air traffic transmissions?

Also, if you feel that the Seattle ATC transcripts are complete, you should inform the FBI headquarters.  In my involvement with the FBI, which includes senior FBI officials and assistance from my US Congressman, they have never made such a claim. 

And their actions have repeatedly indicated that the Seattle ATC transcripts which have been released are redacted.  The Oakland ATC transcripts appear to be complete. 

Resumes don't solve cases. People do. 

It is not the responsibility of the FBI to prove to you that they are complete. It is your responsibility to demonstrate that they are not. You have so far failed to do so.

 

Edited April 5 by Chaucer

[Robert99 37]

3 hours ago, Chaucer said:

Resumes don't solve cases. People do. 

It is not the responsibility of the FBI to prove to you that they are complete. It is your responsibility to demonstrate that they are not. You have so far failed to do so.

 

Chaucer, I will explain this again and for the last time so please pay attention.

1.  The FAA (Federal Aviation Agency) is mandated to maintain records related to aviation accidents and incidents.  These are public records and I have seen some of them that were at least 70 years old.  These records include Air Traffic Control radio transcripts, flight and cockpit recorder records, and any other relevant records.

2.  The FBI (Federal Bureau of Investigation) does not normally get involved in aviation accidents or incidents unless criminally is a factor such as in the Cooper hijacking.  The FBI would have access to all FAA records related to the Cooper hijacking and would control their release while their investigation is ongoing.  This does not mean that the FBI is going to release all of the records or even all of a specific transcript.

3.  I filed an FOIA request for Cooper hijacking records with the FAA field office in Redmond, WA.  I promptly received a reply, by registered mail with return receipt requested, that consisted of a full page of FBI contact information and nothing on the hijacking.

4.  An FOIA request was then filed with the FBI FOIA office which I discovered was an expert at giving the run around and stonewalling.  My US Congressman worked through the FBI Congressional Liaison Office to get the FOIAs, plural by this point, moving properly again.  The end result was that I received two brief paragraphs of information related to the Cooper hijacking and they are posted on Shutter's site.

5.  At no time did the FBI or FAA claim that the Seattle ATC radio transcripts had already been released.  And at no time did either organization claim that they did not exist.  At no time did either organization refer to the redacted transcript document of the Seattle ATC radio transcripts.

6.  The Oakland ATC radio transcripts are textbook examples of air traffic control communications in 1971.  If you want to see how the unredacted Seattle ATC transcripts should look, all you have to do is read the Oakland transcripts.

7.  It is rather odd to me that while the FBI asked for public assistance on the Cooper hijacking, they apparently seemed to prefer military assistance rather than civilian assistance.  For instance, the FBI asked two military navigators nothing about flight paths but only to predict the Cooper landing area based on information provided by the FBI.  There were probably several hundred skydivers in the Seattle area that were better qualified to predict the landing zone than military navigators.

8.  And what happened to all the data that Soderlind and NWA personnel generated on flight paths, landing zones, and so forth?  They certainly had access to all the flight path information and were probably the best qualified group of people to interpret it. 

9.  Etc., etc..   

[Chaucer 103]

1 hour ago, Robert99 said:

Chaucer, I will explain this again and for the last time so please pay attention.

1.  The FAA (Federal Aviation Agency) is mandated to maintain records related to aviation accidents and incidents.  These are public records and I have seen some of them that were at least 70 years old.  These records include Air Traffic Control radio transcripts, flight and cockpit recorder records, and any other relevant records.

2.  The FBI (Federal Bureau of Investigation) does not normally get involved in aviation accidents or incidents unless criminally is a factor such as in the Cooper hijacking.  The FBI would have access to all FAA records related to the Cooper hijacking and would control their release while their investigation is ongoing.  This does not mean that the FBI is going to release all of the records or even all of a specific transcript.

3.  I filed an FOIA request for Cooper hijacking records with the FAA field office in Redmond, WA.  I promptly received a reply, by registered mail with return receipt requested, that consisted of a full page of FBI contact information and nothing on the hijacking.

4.  An FOIA request was then filed with the FBI FOIA office which I discovered was an expert at giving the run around and stonewalling.  My US Congressman worked through the FBI Congressional Liaison Office to get the FOIAs, plural by this point, moving properly again.  The end result was that I received two brief paragraphs of information related to the Cooper hijacking and they are posted on Shutter's site.

5.  At no time did the FBI or FAA claim that the Seattle ATC radio transcripts had already been released.  And at no time did either organization claim that they did not exist.  At no time did either organization refer to the redacted transcript document of the Seattle ATC radio transcripts.

6.  The Oakland ATC radio transcripts are textbook examples of air traffic control communications in 1971.  If you want to see how the unredacted Seattle ATC transcripts should look, all you have to do is read the Oakland transcripts.

7.  It is rather odd to me that while the FBI asked for public assistance on the Cooper hijacking, they apparently seemed to prefer military assistance rather than civilian assistance.  For instance, the FBI asked two military navigators nothing about flight paths but only to predict the Cooper landing area based on information provided by the FBI.  There were probably several hundred skydivers in the Seattle area that were better qualified to predict the landing zone than military navigators.

8.  And what happened to all the data that Soderlind and NWA personnel generated on flight paths, landing zones, and so forth?  They certainly had access to all the flight path information and were probably the best qualified group of people to interpret it. 

9.  Etc., etc..   

Again, none of this is evidence that the Seattle ATC transcripts have been redacted, altered or otherwise different from the originals.

Moreover, you seem to be implying some kind of cover up by the FBIor FAA, but have provided even less evidence in that regard.

As I have said, again and again, if you have evidence for a massive cover up in the NORJAK case that includes these mysterious redactions, please provide some evidence. 

[The Cooper Vortex 73]

New episode out now! DB Cooper's Glass Slipper with Jennifer Washburn.

https://thecoopervortex.podbean.com/e/db-coopers-glass-slipper-jennifer-washburn/

Enjoy!

[Robert99 37]

9 hours ago, Chaucer said:

Again, none of this is evidence that the Seattle ATC transcripts have been redacted, altered or otherwise different from the originals.

Moreover, you seem to be implying some kind of cover up by the FBIor FAA, but have provided even less evidence in that regard.

As I have said, again and again, if you have evidence for a massive cover up in the NORJAK case that includes these mysterious redactions, please provide some evidence. 

Chaucer, you are claiming that I have to produce the unredacted Seattle ATC radio transcripts before you will believe that they have been redacted.  Only the FBI/FAA can produce those transcripts.

Your plea for "some evidence" means that you do not have the slightest understanding of my previous posts on this matter.

[Chaucer 103]

10 hours ago, Robert99 said:

Chaucer, you are claiming that I have to produce the unredacted Seattle ATC radio transcripts before you will believe that they have been redacted.  Only the FBI/FAA can produce those transcripts.

Your plea for "some evidence" means that you do not have the slightest understanding of my previous posts on this matter.

* Please see post #63451

[Chaucer 103]

21 hours ago, Robert99 said:

1.  The FAA (Federal Aviation Agency) is mandated to maintain records related to aviation accidents and incidents.  These are public records and I have seen some of them that were at least 70 years old.  These records include Air Traffic Control radio transcripts, flight and cockpit recorder records, and any other relevant records.

Correct. No argument there.

21 hours ago, Robert99 said:

2.  The FBI (Federal Bureau of Investigation) does not normally get involved in aviation accidents or incidents unless criminally is a factor such as in the Cooper hijacking.  The FBI would have access to all FAA records related to the Cooper hijacking and would control their release while their investigation is ongoing.  This does not mean that the FBI is going to release all of the records or even all of a specific transcript.

Correct.  No argument there.

21 hours ago, Robert99 said:

3.  I filed an FOIA request for Cooper hijacking records with the FAA field office in Redmond, WA.  I promptly received a reply, by registered mail with return receipt requested, that consisted of a full page of FBI contact information and nothing on the hijacking.

I have done the same and received a similar response. No argument there.

21 hours ago, Robert99 said:

4.  An FOIA request was then filed with the FBI FOIA office which I discovered was an expert at giving the run around and stonewalling.  My US Congressman worked through the FBI Congressional Liaison Office to get the FOIAs, plural by this point, moving properly again.  The end result was that I received two brief paragraphs of information related to the Cooper hijacking and they are posted on Shutter's site.

The government in general, and the FBI specifically, is commonly known to be hesitant when it comes to releasing public records. This isn't anything new or particularly illuminating. It's just how government, unfortunately, works. Mark Zaid had to literally sue the FBI for them to release the Cooper files. 

21 hours ago, Robert99 said:

5.  At no time did the FBI or FAA claim that the Seattle ATC radio transcripts had already been released.  And at no time did either organization claim that they did not exist.  At no time did either organization refer to the redacted transcript document of the Seattle ATC radio transcripts.

They are under no obligation to do so. Regarding the redacted transcript document, why would they refer to something that doesn't exist? There are no redacted Seattle ATC transcripts, so why would they even mention them? 

21 hours ago, Robert99 said:

6.  The Oakland ATC radio transcripts are textbook examples of air traffic control communications in 1971.  If you want to see how the unredacted Seattle ATC transcripts should look, all you have to do is read the Oakland transcripts.

You keep saying this without evidence. The two transcripts were prepared by different people at different locations. Those differences are not evidence of anything nefarious. 

21 hours ago, Robert99 said:

7.  It is rather odd to me that while the FBI asked for public assistance on the Cooper hijacking, they apparently seemed to prefer military assistance rather than civilian assistance.  For instance, the FBI asked two military navigators nothing about flight paths but only to predict the Cooper landing area based on information provided by the FBI.  There were probably several hundred skydivers in the Seattle area that were better qualified to predict the landing zone than military navigators.

Those navigators worked aboard C-130s and C-141 which were transport planes used to drop men and material. Both navigators were also tasked with becoming drop experts so that when something went out the back it ended up where it was supposed to. Those two men were far more qualified to calculate a DZ than any civilian skydiver.

21 hours ago, Robert99 said:

8.  And what happened to all the data that Soderlind and NWA personnel generated on flight paths, landing zones, and so forth?  They certainly had access to all the flight path information and were probably the best qualified group of people to interpret it. 

9.  Etc., etc..   

Soderlind and Major Thomas Spangler looked at and used the exact same data and arrived at the exact same conclusion and identical DZs.

 

So, where exactly is the evidence that the Seattle ATC transcripts were redacted? Or are you going to obfuscate again by listing your qualifications? Or refer me to the FAA handbook again? Or tell me to go back and look at your previous posts?

Robert, you've been humping this dog for 15 years and still haven't made any puppies. Might be time to accept that you're a different species. (Metaphorically speaking, of course.)

[Math of Insects 96]

2 hours ago, Chaucer said:

You've been humping this dog for 15 years and still haven't made any puppies. Might be time to accept that you're a different species. 

There is a lot to unpack here. 

[georger 197]

On 4/4/2024 at 11:33 PM, Robert99 said:

Chaucer & Georger, please enlighten me on how many years experience each of you have in communicating with air traffic control facilities and listening to air traffic transmissions?

Also, if you feel that the Seattle ATC transcripts are complete, you should inform the FBI headquarters.  In my involvement with the FBI, which includes senior FBI officials and assistance from my US Congressman, they have never made such a claim. 

And their actions have repeatedly indicated that the Seattle ATC transcripts which have been released are redacted.  The Oakland ATC transcripts appear to be complete. 

Huh!?  I havent said a word! You keep including me................................  you keep imagining me!

You cite WSHM but you never cite what WSHM actually SAID ......................... you just ignore it hoping it goes away.  

Stop dealing from the bottom of the deck. Or maybe you really dont know the difference? Everyone is beyond your games R99.  Nobody waits for you to catch up to reality. You and your credentials were extinct a decade ago.

Play it again Sam.

The examination of the George Harrison ARINC printouts was made on site at WSHM on Jan. ... with a corresponding timestamp on 2013.5.15.5 [page 93 of transcript; page 5 of PDF ... there were found to be eight (8) areas of missing, or redacted, teletype print copy, ...

missing, or redacted, teletype print copy, ...

missing, or redacted, teletype print copy, ...

missing, or redacted, teletype print copy, ...

missing, or redacted, teletype print copy, ...

missing, or redacted, teletype print copy, ...

missing, or redacted, teletype print copy, ...

missing, or redacted, teletype print copy, ...

. . . missing, or redacted, teletype print copy, ...

Edited April 6 by georger

[Robert99 37]

On 4/4/2024 at 1:48 PM, Chaucer said:

As has been pointed out to you repeatedly, there is no evidence of redactions in the Seattle ATC radio transcripts. 

Chaucer and Georger, it has also been repeatedly pointed out to you over the last 15 years that there is plenty of evidence of redactions in the Seattle ATC radio transcripts.

[olemisscub 466]

 

[Chaucer 103]

9 hours ago, Robert99 said:

Chaucer and Georger, it has also been repeatedly pointed out to you over the last 15 years that there is plenty of evidence of redactions in the Seattle ATC radio transcripts.

And yet, you haven't provided a thing pointing toward that supposition except casting vague aspirations at various government agencies. 

Provide some real, compelling evidence for it and I - and presumably everyone else - will listen. 

Until then, you remain alone in the Vortex in this belief. 

And now back to our regularly scheduled programming...

[georger 197]

21 hours ago, Robert99 said:

Chaucer and Georger, it has also been repeatedly pointed out to you over the last 15 years that there is plenty of evidence of redactions in the Seattle ATC radio transcripts.

Then you need to get together with WSHM and get your stories in agreement.

And now back to your regularly scheduled programming... redactions, conspiracies, and FBI coverups...

Edited April 8 by georger

[dudeman17 270]

.

Edited April 9 by dudeman17

[Cola 26]

On 3/29/2024 at 5:59 PM, Cola said:

Provocation Fridays:

 

Anyone care to put their imagination to work?

Should you choose to take this on. The assignment for the next 2 weeks is to write a fictional account of Cooper starting form one of these lead ins:

- What I have to say goes like this

- I landed in

- It were my grudge that were my trouble

- I noticed that

Or chose your own lead in..

Thinking 500-800+ words or more, should take 2-5 hours to write.

Narrative style from the view of Cooper or from another characters view...

Will check back in two week time to see what stories percolate up. 

This is all for fun.

 

 

If you took this on I'd ask that postings come across on Thursday evening.

I'm planning on putting out a new provocation Friday.

 

Edited April 9 by Cola

[The Cooper Vortex 73]

New episode out now! DB Cooper and the JFK Assassination with my good friend John Limbach. 

https://thecoopervortex.podbean.com/e/db-cooper-and-the-jfk-assassination-john-limbach/

Enjoy!

[olemisscub 466]

Skip is a solid suspect.  

Edited April 11 by olemisscub

[Cola 26]

On 4/7/2024 at 2:05 PM, olemisscub said:

 

It had passed my attention that Tosaw was the Ingram's lawyer.

Do you or anyone know when Tosaw began this crusade and for how long this legal dispute went on for until the division of the bills?

I had though there was a 6 year legal stall by the agency, but when you mentioned Tosaw was the lawyer I now think that a case may have only been out there for a year or two?

Any insights on that.

[CooperNWO305 146]

For anyone who is “friends” or Facebook friends with this person, this is pure libel. I have made updates in the past to the Wiki entry, but the full entry is based off a news article. The Wiki tree and grave deal are complete falsehoods, and can be proven with subpoenas.  

[CooperNWO305 146]

Just now, CooperNWO305 said:

For anyone who is “friends” or Facebook friends with this person, this is pure libel. I have made updates in the past to the Wiki entry, but the full entry is based off a news article. The Wiki tree and grave deal are complete falsehoods, and can be proven with subpoenas.  

I stand by what I’ve done. But lies are lies. Thanks to the group member who notified me of this libelous comment. 

[Cola 26]

On 4/9/2024 at 3:53 PM, Cola said:

Provocation Fridays

 

 

Author Cola of the Dropzone.com

Title: Just for fun Fictitious thoughts for Cooper

8:17

I landed in a field west of Brush Prairie. I planted the landing, but the cordage of the ransom twisted around my right foot and with my momentum and the dead weight of the bag I went down. I didn’t go face down but stumbled and came on one knee. My right hand stretched out before me to steady the fall but it slipped completely out from the wet grass. I came to rest laying on my right side. I managed to catch the silks gracefully float over me obscuring my vision for a moment as they cradled to earth in front of me.

The first thing I could make out beyond the silks were some heifers now at a distance trotting away. There was a slight breeze on the field but nothing of immediate concern. A little mud on my palms, soiled trench coat. My legs and shoes were muddied.

In the distance some 240 yards I could see a light on a barn and beyond that mostly obscured I made out the silhouette of a farmhouse. Laying quietly, I listened for any dogs. Nothing stirred and the night was silent except for a slight flapping of the chute and ringing in my ear.

I got to my feet and took measure of myself.  Standing there I noted my legs worked and nothing of body had broken. Mistakenly I was standing upright, I then hunched down bringing my head below the grassy barbwire edge of the field. I further knelt on one knee. Taking a glance around, my nerves were on, my senses sharpening as I looked over to the field, bordered by a road to my left, another field to my rear, the farmhouse in front and some pines opposite the road on my right. Evergreens in that country there. I felt I was facing south. I looked to the horizon of the barbed wire outline of the field and toward the barn for any threats.

My breathing went flat as I sucked air over my tongue and gazed intensely in every direction. Moving slowly I took in the full detail of my surroundings. Coming down I had seen a single vehicle traveling the road some 600 yards past where I landed. I was confident he’d not seen me or the chute in the rear view.

The acid of my stomach had started to sour in those 30 minutes I waited to walk down the stairs. In my waiting, I had found up front a turkey sandwich I’d ordered for the crew and I forced it down then to settle the acid.  However, as I now knelt quietly looking around, I noticed a burning sensation in my sinuses and back of my throat. My stomach must have splashed into my esophagus during the jump or when I pulled the rip cord.

I don’t know for how long I stared out at my surroundings, time slows in moments like that. I sat there listening on every bug walking every blade of grass or fluttering in that field. I was still undecided thinking over if I had the resolve to do what might be required had I been seen.  I guess in the sheer intensity of working through my pan-acy and on those nasty thoughts I felt my stomach empty out into my lower bowels.

It’s odd to think yourself fortunate in life to have shit yourself a time or two.  However, in having the benefit of these prior experiences, when the feeling now came over me I quickly unfastened the parachute harness, stepped back, dropped my drawers and relieved myself.

With this relief my mind relaxed and an incredible rush came over me.  Squatting there I couldn’t believe what I’d pulled off. It started to sink in.  It began with a slight snicker at my thoughts and my spirits lifting.  As I crapped, I passed a little gas and then giggled on that, and more gas chased after my giggle.  I set into a pattern of giggling then gas, giggle louder, then louder fart still and this sequence twice over, took me into a chuckle.

I tried to cup my mouth, with one hand, but the absurdity of shitting in that cow pasture and having to quiet myself, further served to intensify my snickering. As I pressed my hand against my mouth to hold in any laughter my own hand worked against me. The hand being moist from touching the ground when pressed to my lips, let out its own little series of farts, that were because of the cupping directed straight into my left ear drum. All of this was too much for me in that moment and I then came into a roaring laugh which discharged my bowels completely. I stood partially out of panic,  pulled my pants up, belly laughing into the open field and then cackling like a lunatic of sorts as I applied some restraint in clamping down on my mouth while I buckled my britches.

I thought for sure that dam Farm dog had heard me now. I buried my mouth in the crook of my elbow but the wet overcoat did not lessen the effect. After so many hours playing the stoic, the pressure valve had suddenly blown open, I’d never had such a high,  I was now uncontrollable as the laughter from the stress of it all took me over. Cackling. Cackling. Cackling grinding my teeth pinching my mouth shut.

The first thing that came to mind was a pillow, so I took off my raincoat and then my jacket. I balled up the jacket and buried my face in it. This dampened my laughter and taking a seat I let it roar on for a few until I came to that point of being strained by the laughter, dry from it.

Taking those last few heavy and deep breaths. Exhaling. Inhaling.  Exhale -Inhale to gain my composure.  a ohhhhhh, a-hewwwww followed by a snickering, he he he he he. Then an a ohhhhhh in, an a-hewwwwwww out, an another snickering he he he he he. As I  went on like this I became a little emotional.  Being at the edge of tears from the laughing I was a little glum at having to force myself to dampen my own high spirits. After I had suffocated this untimely bliss my body felt wrung out as if I had just had one of those cries a man is known to have. The kind of cries we men have, the alone ones, behind closed doors, once every 8 or 12 years or so. That’s how I felt in that field, broken up.

I snickered some here and there the rest of that evening as I walked the rails. For a long time after, that dam snicker was friendly to me warming my spirits and tickling my senses the rest of my days.  It would come on at the most inappropriate of times. This new aspect of me unfortunately served to often intensify future assaults upon me from every angle. From that point on I seemed to cackle in the face of conflict and this blessing of light spirit brought with it women problems, authority problems.

The snicker was not of my own doing but a reaction. The perception of which by others often interpreted as a sign, a proof, of my pleasure in their displeasure with me.  How do you explain this to someone that you do not take joy in their displeasure, that you’re not part, of that part, of the lowest part, of human existence.

 

 

 

Edited April 12 by Cola

[georger 197]

14 hours ago, Cola said:

It had passed my attention that Tosaw was the Ingram's lawyer.

Do you or anyone know when Tosaw began this crusade and for how long this legal dispute went on for until the division of the bills?

I had though there was a 6 year legal stall by the agency, but when you mentioned Tosaw was the lawyer I now think that a case may have only been out there for a year or two?

Any insights on that.

Boy to Split $5,520 of D. B. Cooper’s Loot

L.A. Times Archives

May 22, 1986 12 AM PT

Associated Press

PORTLAND, Ore. — 

The boy who found $5,800 of hijacker D. B. Cooper’s loot six years ago would get to keep almost half of the cash under an agreement submitted to a judge Wednesday by the four parties claiming shares of the find.

Tuesday was the deadline for submitting claims on the $5,800 in decaying $20 bills found by Brian Ingram, now 14, on a Columbia River beach in Vancouver, Wash. In Feb 1980, six years ago.

The parties that filed claims on the money were Brian Ingram and his parents represented by Richard Tosaw atty, Northwest Orient Airlines, the FBI,  and the airline’s insurance company, Globe Indemnity Co. represented by J Pringle atty (Portland).

Under the proposed judgment, which must be approved by U.S. District Judge Helen Frye, the federal government would keep $280 for use as evidence should anyone be prosecuted in the unsolved 1971 hijacking in which $200,000 was paid as ransom. Ingram and Globe Indemnity would split the remaining $5,520 equally.

(Tosaw joined the case not long after the find in 1980 when the Ingrams were publicly demanding a reward.)

Edited April 12 by georger