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(edited)

I don't know Flyjack...I think you are wasting your time debating Georger's comments at the DB Cooper Forum over here at Dropzone. Maybe you should consider showing up to the Cooper Con (good name for it) down in Vancouver this November. There will be plenty of lies being tossed at the public there for sure. Maybe the biggest proliferation of lies about the case, as well as certain suspects, ever done. Maybe you should show up and counter some of them. (Of course, if Eric and company realized that was your intention, they might not invite you.) ¬¬

They will undoubtedly lay a few mistruths on the audience, such as:

  • Sheridan Peterson was the hijacker, ("and let's use a few lies about him to show you how I know this...") Eric Ulis.
  • "I am not only a solid reporter and Cooper case researcher...but I was also kidnapped by aliens." (Bruce Smith)
  • "Let me drop some false information on you to prove how the Tina Bar money got there..." (Eric)
  • Etc. Etc. 

The guest list is not bad, I'll admit. That's the good part. The bad part is that everyone and anyone showing up is simply being used by Eric to push a false narrative for the media, with the bottom line being that Eric somehow benefits. I wouldn't go near that event if they sent me a limo and two strip tease girls to go along for the ride. B) I will NEVER sell out for the Cooper case. I don't HAVE to. Ten years down the road and our book on Kenny Christiansen continues to sell each month at a steady pace. Even I can't believe it sometimes, but it got to the point where I put my daughter Phoebe in my will as the recipient of all royalties and the rights to everything AB of Seattle has done, in case something happened to Gayla and myself. (No worries, we're not planning on checking out anytime soon.)

I think what has happened here with Eric and some of these folks is they are realizing that after this year, the 50th anniversary of the hijacking, finally comes and goes, that public interest in the case will begin to wane. I already figured this out a while ago. 

I think if this was a serial murder case, such as Jack the Ripper or Scorpio, it might be different. But as far as the public goes, (not so much the armchair investigators and fans in Cooperland) there is somewhat less interest in Cooper simply because he DIDN'T kill anybody while he was pulling his little stunt. Here are some facts about Cooperland, in general:

  • If you were 15 years old at the time of the crime, you would be 65 now. That narrows your 'target market' quite a bit. Even here in the Northwest, most people I mention D.B. Cooper to...who are under the age of forty...don't know who I'm talking about without some reminders on who he was. I discovered this fact by accident prior to the pandemic, and even though I shouldn't have been surprised...I was.
     
  • A failure to support ANY and ALL events surrounding Cooper, and the amount of infighting that goes on between certain people involved in the case...hurts publicity about Cooper as a whole. These people haven't figured out the fact that there just aren't that many events being held on Cooper. By doing this, these people shoot themselves in the foot and wonder why maybe only a hundred people actually turn out when they DO hold an event. If these people were smart, they would fully support our Cooper Party in July for example, because then we would assist them in getting people excited enough to actually SHOW UP and PAY THE WHOPPING FAT FEE to attend their event in November. But at this point, we're considering the idea instead of a little payback to teach them a lesson in manners. The lesson being, we lay it on the media and the crowd what has gone on in the past with Eric, especially at the 2019 convention, and how his followers are mostly a closed group trying to dictate a bullshit narrative to people for their own commercial purposes.
     
  • Truth is, I don't believe this is a good idea because even though Eric is obviously a hustler, our belief is that ALL Cooper events are good for the Cooper community as a whole. Especially when they aren't in competition with calendar dates, type of crowd, or media attention. But they don't see it that way.  Maybe it's time to just bring certain folks to the Reality Hotel with both the public and the media and see what happens. I would rather go out on a truthful note if we're not going to do something like the July party again. In any case, after the 2019 convention, we got a big spike in book sales even though I wasn't even there and probably wasn't mentioned. In fact, to date December 2019 was our biggest month for sales of the Kenny Christiansen book in its ten-year history. More than 500 copies in paperback went out that month worldwide via Ingram, which for a niche book isn't bad. I was amazed, but I never figured out why. LSI/Ingram doesn't tell you how or why a book sells. They just deposit the money into your bank account and PayPal, and don't release any other information about how that came to be. Our sales spike in December 2020 was almost as good. When you do wholesale distribution, Amazon is a very minor sales thing...UNLESS you are Stephen King or something. (EDIT: Lightning Source/Ingram DOES tell you in reports which markets had print sales and how many, such as US market, Great Britain, South America, Europe sales, Australia, Asia, etc. They have print and distribution centers in all those places.) 
     
  • The last two TV shows done on Cooper by History Channel were pretty much a total zero, especially 'DB Cooper - Case Closed?' The show Eric was on was slightly better, but still had nothing of substance to present. People get tired of watching TV shows about Cooper where no conclusions are made, and no new evidence of any real value is presented.
     
  • After the LAST convention, I received quite a few messages from people asking why I wasn't at that convention. Some of these people thought I would be, since only a few people from the Northwest have done books on Cooper...and let's face it...Into The Blast is the only one being distributed in wholesale worldwide, and still sells reasonably well month after month. I told these people I had to be in San Diego, but I did feel bad because they said those things. It was flattering, but I could tell they were disappointed. Most of them weren't actually at the convention, but their messages came after they read the available media about it afterward. 
     
  • Shutter doesn't realize it, but many people...most of them I have no idea who they are...contact us and ask why I don't post to his forum and counter the lies and (occasional) hatred that gets spewed about me personally at that website. I tell them it's because Shutter and Company prefer it that way, and it is easier for them. It's no wonder only the same 15-20 people have been the main speakers for that site for a number of years now. By this time, there should be many more. Of course, I have no idea how the general public feels about that site as a whole, but their policy of allowing only registered members to view any links or pictures posted to the site really restricts the number of people in the general public they reach. It also makes advertising your event, your latest book, your latest evidence...a big waste of time. Only the same people you've been dealing with for years can actually see anything important you post. The truth is, not to hurt Shutter's feelings, but I wouldn't post there even if he allowed it. I would see it as a waste of time, and I'm already doing WordPress on Cooper, Quora Cooper, and Dropzone right now...plus the stuff at the main AB of Seattle site. I don't need another site to keep me busy, as far as the Cooper case goes. 
     
  • I always get a chuckle when some folks say no one listens to me. The truth is...probably not that many via Dropzone. But over at Quora Cooper, I have 2,000 followers and more come trickling in here and there each week. My total views to content there, which includes anything Cooper and some other subjects...now totals over four million views in just under four years. That's not bad, and better than Shutter's entire website, even if you toss in the Cooper views at Dropzone.
     
  • A majority of the people who have applied so far to attend the July party haven't come from seeing the material at the AB of Seattle main website, or even at Dropzone. They say they read about it at Quora Cooper most often, or sometimes the WordPress, and then just WENT to the AB website. Any post we make at Quora Cooper immediately goes out to nearly 3,000 recipients at the same time. About 2,000 via Quora Cooper, and another 800...my personal followers at Quora. Plus any Quora members who decide to share the latest post, as well as Quora staff forwarding an article to up to an additional 10,000 Quora users by email. (Quora staff pick and choose certain articles or posts and DO that.) Not bragging, just a fact. This is why I encouraged known people in Cooperland to come on board as contributors at Quora Cooper, but they completely ignored the invitation. What does all this mean? It means Cooperland shoots itself in the foot. A LOT. B) I see already that Bruce Smith put out a decent article about the November event, and already...here comes the Peanut Gallery with the usual filthy comments. That, of course, will eventually become an embarrassment for the event itself. Allowing these comments on otherwise okay promotional articles has a habit of coming back to bite you later. 
Edited by RobertMBlevins
Clarifications on points

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(edited)

Here are some very interesting results of an analysis I have meant to do for while..

I took the flightpath and imported into Google Earth,, then measured the distance between the time marks in miles. 

The time marks on the map were manually drawn so they are not precise but comparing them may expose an anomaly. The plane did slow down when Cooper jumped. If a manual mark was off you'd expect that to correct on the next mark. 

When the plane slowed we would see a shorter distance between time marks.

We are comparing the averages and deviation. This is not precise but can expose a data outlier.

and it did,, there is a large deviation between 20:10 and 20:11 suggesting the plane slowed to about 166 knots/192 MPH vs the average. If one of those marks was just marked off then you'd expect the surrounding marks to compensate and they don't. 20:11 thru 20:13 are significantly below average. We are comparing the deviations, the relationships between the minute marks.

The 20:05 start minute mark may be off due to the missing 20:04 mark.

It is not proof but the data deviation appears to show Norjak slowed down significantly to about 166 knots/192 MPH between 20:10 and 20:11 while the average speed over the time series was 189 knots/217 MPH.

Note, the distance/speeds are not precise but measured the same way. We are looking at the deviation from the average. That deviation may be a poor manual mark or an actual change in speed. The 20:10 - 20:11 deviation suggests a speed reduction. If NORJAK slowed down in this time series it was between 20:10 - 20:11. 

The speed/distances are not precise but the distances were measured all using the same system so the deviation is what is the key.

IMO, the FBI got it right Cooper jumped between 20:10 and 20:11...

Norjaktimespeed.jpeg.d26996936c7628bf5ac393a1237e2c63.jpeg

Legal notice, Georger, Eric Ulis, Robert99 do not have permission to use this post or any information within, or copy this post in any form whatsoever. Everyone else has permission.

Copyright March 17, 2021

Edited by FLYJACK

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(edited)

Well...one reason why the jet might slow down is because Cooper was going down the stairs. The added drag of the stairs dropping with his weight would slow that 727 a bit. 

Then...after he jumps...the speed may increase a bit...but probably wouldn't come back to the highest speed the jet was going. The reason could be that the stairs are now freed of his weight, and have come back up a bit...but are still creating SOME drag on the aircraft. The numbers make sense to me. A jump between 2010-2012 seems likely, with 2011 my best guess if you want the exact minute. Anything after that, speed was increasing. 

Edited by RobertMBlevins

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(edited)

Well. this still doesn't account for WHERE Cooper was when he jumped. Assume he jumped at 8:11. WHERE was that? Ariel? Battle Ground? Orchard? Portland? How can we know?

Also, FJ, the speed you have is far above that indicated on the DME which is 165 knots. 

Edited by Chaucer

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1 hour ago, Chaucer said:

Well. this still doesn't account for WHERE Cooper was when he jumped. Assume he jumped at 8:11. WHERE was that? Ariel? Battle Ground? Orchard? Portland? How can we know?

Also, FJ, the speed you have is far above that indicated on the DME which is 165 knots. 

Yes, the distances were measured in Google Earth, so the ground speed is not necessarily accurate because Google Earth isn't accurate. But since the measuring method was consistent for all segments the deviation from the average exposes the anomaly. The deviation tells you how far above or below the average that segment is. The 20:10 - 20:11 segment is the shortest relative to the others aka the slowest of all the segments.

We are comparing the minute segment lengths to each other, the shortest = slowest. 

It was always thought that the 20:10 - 20:11 segment appeared shorter based on visual, but the marks were made manually so an anomaly could be a marking error but checking the other surrounding segments that isn't the case. If an anomaly was created by a poorly placed mark the neighbouring plots would be seen to compensate, they don't.

Where exactly was the plane at 8:11.. My best guess is to take the 8:11 time on the map and go +/- 1 minute.

So, 8:10 - 8:12 on the map..  exactly where they thought he jumped.

 

Why do you believe the oscillations occurred before the jump?

Everything I have read and processed has Cooper jumping, the stairs go up and cause the pressure bump, effectively the first oscillation,, then the stairs oscillate until reaching their equilibrium. They are simultaneous but the oscillations continue until dissipation.

It matches the 20:11 time as well.

 

oscillations1.jpeg.0a12aaf5ed83518107c67def3d48107e.jpeg

Edited by FLYJACK

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(edited)
1 hour ago, Chaucer said:

Well. this still doesn't account for WHERE Cooper was when he jumped. Assume he jumped at 8:11. WHERE was that? Ariel? Battle Ground? Orchard? Portland? How can we know?

Also, FJ, the speed you have is far above that indicated on the DME which is 165 knots. 

Well...at 811 that jet was probably just past Ariel...and maybe the Amboy chute wasn't just a coincidental find after all. The Seattle FBI touted that chute heavily for a week, saying "It's the right size, the right color, and found in the right place..."

But right after they let Earl Cossey have a look at it, he said he knew it wasn't Cooper's (a quote from him to media) "in less than ten seconds." He also gave a reason, saying the Amboy chute was made of silk and the ones given to Cooper were ripstop nylon. The Amboy chute is NOT silk. So we know Cossey lied right there. Later that same day, Cossey told a reporter at the Seattle Times newspaper who called him that it DID come from the hijacking. The reporter was nearly fired, but his boss double-checked the story and Cossey said he was 'just kidding.' Maybe the truth is somewhere in between, such as Cossey told the FBI the chute WAS Cooper's, and then was told by the FBI to keep that quiet. So when the reporter's boss called back to verify before running the story, Cossey retracted because he knew the FBI was planning to keep that fact a secret. 

You have to ask yourself this:  WHY would Cossey tell the media the chute was silk when it wasn't? 

Two days later, the Seattle FBI issued a single statement about the chute. It wasn't Cooper's, they said. Reason? "By a preponderance of the evidence..." Some media wanted to know WHAT evidence was used for dismissal. They got no answers. 

Five years later, I contacted the FBI and asked them myself what evidence was used in the dismissal. They said, "It's evidence in an ongoing case." When I replied that they had already dismissed it as evidence five years previously, they refused to answer. 

Researcher Tom Kaye also inquired on the Amboy chute, and has a standing offer for his team at Citizen Sleuths to examine it. They were denied access. Funny thing...considering they were allowed to put nearly all the other physical evidence under a microscope. 

As those Alcoa Aluminum commercials used to say on Monday Night Football, "YOU make the call."

My call is that the Seattle FBI is full of shit regarding the Amboy chute, and they are probably hiding something. Later, they admitted to me that no other civilians except Earl Cossey were allowed to examine it. They did say they took a few phone calls from experts after they put out the word they needed chute experts to examine the thing. But none of these 'experts' were allowed to look at it. The whole thing with the FBI, Cossey, and the Seattle FBI's dealings with the media about it are just weird, and don't make sense. First...the FBI puts out pictures and calls for experts to come forward. They say they will have their lab examine it, but it never ended up there. On the day they were supposed to kick it upstairs to the lab, they put it in the trunk of a government car and dump it in Cossey's driveway. After that, everything changes. No solid statements are made about it. Cossey lies to the media. The FBI doesn't dispute his 'silk not nylon' baloney, and then the FBI refuses to answer any further questions about it...even years later. Tom Kaye gets rebuffed. 

This, my friends, is why I plan to call them out on this issue come July. Because they are full of it. Either that...or they figured out the chute WAS Cooper's, and decided to designate it as hard evidence and keep that information from the public, as they did a few other things in the Cooper case. This is always done in major cases, and I believe they decided the Amboy chute was one of them. 

What is the bottom line here? What would be the Seattle FBI's motivation for concealing information about the Amboy chute? Here's one possible reason:  After the Tina Bar money find, they started saying they thought Cooper died in the jump. If the Amboy chute had its container and harness removed, and the canopy buried, and was identified by Cossey privately....they would also have to admit Cooper reached the ground and was well enough to transfer the money, bury the canopy, and escape the area successfully. The canopy itself would be evidence of all this. 

 

AmboyChuteIllustration.jpg

BELOW: Co-pilot Bill Rataczak described the ransom money bag as a white 'hapsack' with leather handles. I don't know if the term 'hapsack' is really accurate, but the picture below is probably close. This is not something you would want to be seen carrying along a road after a hijacking. 

 

Bank Bag.jpg

Edited by RobertMBlevins

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7 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

Here are some very interesting results of an analysis I have meant to do for while..

I took the flightpath and imported into Google Earth,, then measured the distance between the time marks in miles. 

The time marks on the map were manually drawn so they are not precise but comparing them may expose an anomaly. The plane did slow down when Cooper jumped. If a manual mark was off you'd expect that to correct on the next mark. 

When the plane slowed we would see a shorter distance between time marks.

We are comparing the averages and deviation. This is not precise but can expose a data outlier.

and it did,, there is a large deviation between 20:10 and 20:11 suggesting the plane slowed to about 166 knots/192 MPH vs the average. If one of those marks was just marked off then you'd expect the surrounding marks to compensate and they don't. 20:11 thru 20:13 are significantly below average. We are comparing the deviations, the relationships between the minute marks.

The 20:05 start minute mark may be off due to the missing 20:04 mark.

It is not proof but the data deviation appears to show Norjak slowed down significantly to about 166 knots/192 MPH between 20:10 and 20:11 while the average speed over the time series was 189 knots/217 MPH.

Note, the distance/speeds are not precise but measured the same way. We are looking at the deviation from the average. That deviation may be a poor manual mark or an actual change in speed. The 20:10 - 20:11 deviation suggests a speed reduction. If NORJAK slowed down in this time series it was between 20:10 - 20:11. 

The speed/distances are not precise but the distances were measured all using the same system so the deviation is what is the key.

IMO, the FBI got it right Cooper jumped between 20:10 and 20:11...

Norjaktimespeed.jpeg.d26996936c7628bf5ac393a1237e2c63.jpeg

Legal notice, Georger, Eric Ulis, Robert99 do not have permission to use this post or any information within, or copy this post in any form whatsoever. Everyone else has permission.

Copyright March 17, 2021

I knew those guys would screw this up.. Didn't I explain it. Is this thing on?

Each segment was measured using the exact same method, those segments were converted to a speed which is not accurate because Google Earths tool measuring ground distance isn't entirely accurate, it might be out 10%. It doesn't matter as long as all segments were measured using the same tool they are all out the same %. We can compare them.

Those speeds represent a ratio, not the actual speed, a proxy to compare to each other.

The significance here is the deviation from the proxy not the proxy/speed. I could have left the speed data off entirely and used distance only, the result would be the same, a significant shorter deviation at 20:10 - 20:11.

If the plane was travelling at the same speed the entire time you'd expect the segments to be very close, but when the plane slows down you get a shorter segment, that is what we have..

 

 

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1 hour ago, FLYJACK said:

IMO, the FBI got it right Cooper jumped between 20:10 and 20:11...

I think you're right, although I wouldn't fully credit the FBI. I would credit NWA Flight Ops Director Paul Soderlind for it. It wasn't the FBI who actually came up with the map. It was Soderlind and his team using the data. Who actually drew the map I don't know, but the Brains Behind the Operation was definitely Soderlind. They didn't stick him in the Minnesota Aviation Hall of Fame for nothing. ¬¬ It's known he was already on the job and getting updates in Minneapolis on the situation not long after the jet landed in Seattle to pick up the chutes and the money. He was also in contact with NWA employees in Seattle as the jet sat on the tarmac. By the time it took off again, Soderlind was ready. Donald Nyrop might have been the CEO of NWA at the time, but it was Soderlind who really ran the show on a day-to-day basis. When he got word of the hijacking, he knew what had to be done. He and his team pointed the FBI in the right direction. 

Problem was...Cooper was already long gone. 

Edited by RobertMBlevins

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17 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

Here are some very interesting results of an analysis I have meant to do for while..

I took the flightpath and imported into Google Earth,, then measured the distance between the time marks in miles. 

The time marks on the map were manually drawn so they are not precise but comparing them may expose an anomaly. The plane did slow down when Cooper jumped. If a manual mark was off you'd expect that to correct on the next mark. 

When the plane slowed we would see a shorter distance between time marks.

We are comparing the averages and deviation. This is not precise but can expose a data outlier.

and it did,, there is a large deviation between 20:10 and 20:11 suggesting the plane slowed to about 166 knots/192 MPH vs the average. If one of those marks was just marked off then you'd expect the surrounding marks to compensate and they don't. 20:11 thru 20:13 are significantly below average. We are comparing the deviations, the relationships between the minute marks.

The 20:05 start minute mark may be off due to the missing 20:04 mark.

It is not proof but the data deviation appears to show Norjak slowed down significantly to about 166 knots/192 MPH between 20:10 and 20:11 while the average speed over the time series was 189 knots/217 MPH.

Note, the distance/speeds are not precise but measured the same way. We are looking at the deviation from the average. That deviation may be a poor manual mark or an actual change in speed. The 20:10 - 20:11 deviation suggests a speed reduction. If NORJAK slowed down in this time series it was between 20:10 - 20:11. 

The speed/distances are not precise but the distances were measured all using the same system so the deviation is what is the key.

IMO, the FBI got it right Cooper jumped between 20:10 and 20:11...

Norjaktimespeed.jpeg.d26996936c7628bf5ac393a1237e2c63.jpeg

Legal notice, Georger, Eric Ulis, Robert99 do not have permission to use this post or any information within, or copy this post in any form whatsoever. Everyone else has permission.

Copyright March 17, 2021

I checked the Google Earth measuring tool vs known distances and it is actually quite accurate.. better than I thought. I wasn't even going to convert and show ground speed in the analysis as it wasn't relevant. I added it just to see..

The measurement is ground distance in miles per marked segment minute * 60 = X MPH converted to knots.

NORJAK speed was reported to have been lowered to 150 kn IAS..  which can be up to 20% below true airspeed.

True airspeed and wind/angle can calculate ground speed.

A 150 IAS into a wind could be about 166 ground speed.

The ground speed calculations here are probably fairly accurate, however irrelevant here. These ground speeds reflect the map markings not NORJAK's true speed.. DO NOT CONFLATE THESE SPEEDS WITH NORJAK'S IAS or TAS.

The minute marks on the map were by hand and not 100% accurate, distances between the minute marks will be off slightly also reflected in the a slight ground speed error. The exercise here was not to calculate NORJAK's ground speed but to ID any large deviation aka shorter segment/lower ground speed which indicates either a gross marking error or the plane slowing down.

Since a gross marking error would have to be compensated for in adjacent segments that can be ruled out.

The outlier identified here is the 20:10 - 2:11 time period indicating NORJAK slowed down substantially and that timeframe is supported by other evidence.

 

Due to the TBAR money find location and lack of a case resolution everyone wants to change the evidence..  

The evidence overwhelmingly supports a 20:10 - 20:11 jump time. 

 

Now, how did the TBAR money get into the Columbia R in Spring....

 

 

Edited by FLYJACK

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14 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

Why do you believe the oscillations occurred before the jump?

Everything I have read and processed has Cooper jumping, the stairs go up and cause the pressure bump, effectively the first oscillation,, then the stairs oscillate until reaching their equilibrium. They are simultaneous but the oscillations continue until dissipation.

It matches the 20:11 time as well.

 

 

The confusion between the oscillations and the pressure bump has been ongoing with this case for years - probably from the beginning.

The oscillations were an ongoing event. The occurred over a period of two or three minutes. This is likely Cooper slowly walking out on to the aftstairs. This is when the crew says "He must be doing something with the stairs."

The pressure bump was a one time event that ended the oscillations. This was Cooper jumping from the aircraft.

The oscillations are well-documented as occurring between 8:10 and 8:12. Conversely, the "pressure bump" is not mentioned and no time is given. We have to assume that it occurred AFTER the oscillations - 8:13 or later. Rataczak said it happened 5 to 10 minutes after last contact at 8:05. He later told Carr it was 10 to 15 minutes after last contact. Meanwhile, Anderson is on record stating that when the pressure bump occurred, they discussed it among the crew about what it was and what to do before they informed the NWO about it. After being informed by the crew, Sonderlind did his best estimate and put the time at 8:13. 

So, again, the oscillations happened for several minutes and ended with the pressure bump. We know when the oscillations begin, but we do not know how long they last nor do we know the exact time of the pressure bump. 

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4 minutes ago, Chaucer said:

The confusion between the oscillations and the pressure bump has been ongoing with this case for years - probably from the beginning.

The oscillations were an ongoing event. The occurred over a period of two or three minutes. This is likely Cooper slowly walking out on to the aftstairs. This is when the crew says "He must be doing something with the stairs."

The pressure bump was a one time event that ended the oscillations. This was Cooper jumping from the aircraft.

The oscillations are well-documented as occurring between 8:10 and 8:12. Conversely, the "pressure bump" is not mentioned and no time is given. We have to assume that it occurred AFTER the oscillations - 8:13 or later. Rataczak said it happened 5 to 10 minutes after last contact at 8:05. He later told Carr it was 10 to 15 minutes after last contact. Meanwhile, Anderson is on record stating that when the pressure bump occurred, they discussed it among the crew about what it was and what to do before they informed the NWO about it. After being informed by the crew, Sonderlind did his best estimate and put the time at 8:13. 

So, again, the oscillations happened for several minutes and ended with the pressure bump. We know when the oscillations begin, but we do not know how long they last nor do we know the exact time of the pressure bump. 

Yes, there has been confusion but I still don't see your argument.

Rat is throwing out an estimate decades later.. that isn't a literal fact.

 

Logically, it makes sense that the oscillations continued after the pressure bump not before.

Cooper going down the airstairs might cause some slight action if any but little compared to the oscillations after jumping. The stairs wouldn't spring up and stop, they would swing..

"My ear plug came out (pressure bump first) and I uh, we're getting some oscillations.. (oscillations after)"

Oscillations caused by the airstairs closing after the unsub departed..

The evidence supports oscillations after Cooper jumped.

 

oscillations1.jpeg.0a12aaf5ed83518107c67def3d48107e.jpeg.5868c29279c1937dbfbc972124958909.jpeg

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(edited)

Yes, what the crew described as oscillations were fluctuations in the cabin pressure which they immediately assumed was Cooper  "attempting to do something with the airstairs". The oscillations were not a one time event. They happened over a period of time while Cooper made his way down the stairs.

Then, he jumped and when he did it caused a pressure bump which was noticeably different from the oscillations they had experienced immediately before. . 

In this file, the FBI again confuses the oscillations with the pressure bump. The oscillations were not caused by the airstairs slamming back up. The pressure bump was the result of the airstairs slamming back up.

The oscillations were occurring at 8:11 and continued until 8:12 (maybe longer; we don't know). But at some time after 8:12, Cooper jumped and the crew experienced the pressure bump. 

Rataczak also states in the 302s that "they had not yet reached Portland Proper but were definitely in the suburbs or immediate vicinity." when the pressure bump occurred. That would have to be later than 8:10 or 8:11. No one is going to describe the Ariel area as the suburbs of Portland or in the "immediate vicinity" of Portland. They would have to be closer to Vancouver.

Edited by Chaucer

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29 minutes ago, Chaucer said:

Yes, what the crew described as oscillations were fluctuations in the cabin pressure which they immediately assumed was Cooper  "attempting to do something with the airstairs". The oscillations were not a one time event. They happened over a period of time while Cooper made his way down the stairs.

Then, he jumped and when he did it caused a pressure bump which was noticeably different from the oscillations they had experienced immediately before. . 

In this file, the FBI again confuses the oscillations with the pressure bump. The oscillations were not caused by the airstairs slamming back up. The pressure bump was the result of the airstairs slamming back up.

The oscillations were occurring at 8:11 and continued until 8:12 (maybe longer; we don't know). But at some time after 8:12, Cooper jumped and the crew experienced the pressure bump. 

Rataczak also states in the 302s that "they had not yet reached Portland Proper but were definitely in the suburbs or immediate vicinity." when the pressure bump occurred. That would have to be later than 8:10 or 8:11. No one is going to describe the Ariel area as the suburbs of Portland or in the "immediate vicinity" of Portland. They would have to be closer to Vancouver.

"The oscillations were not a one time event. They happened over a period of time while Cooper made his way down the stairs."
 

How do you know that?

Edited by FLYJACK

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Just now, FLYJACK said:

"The oscillations were not a one time event. They happened over a period of time while Cooper made his way down the stairs."
 

Now do you know that?

Because that is how the crew described them. They assumed the oscillations were caused by Cooper "attempting to do something with the airstairs". Then the pressure bump occurred which we now know is Cooper jumping. Logically, one would conclude that Cooper climbing out on to the stairs caused the oscillations before he jumped.

No where does it say, "Wow, we just experienced a significant pressure bump and now we are getting oscillations." Quite the contrary. It says, "We are getting oscillations." and then no mention of the pressure bump. 

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It is only 21 and a half miles on the freeway between Woodland and Vancouver. This is approximately the same distance as the crow flies between Ariel and the Columbia River. That is about seven minutes worth of flying time. With the jet going a mile every twenty seconds or so, this makes it difficult to pin down an exact jump point. Going on changes in the speed of the aircraft seems like the most sensible way to determine that point. 

Since the pilots were already flying 'dirty' aka lower speed and flaps down, and burning fuel at a furious rate, it is unlikely they would arbitrarily decide to slow the aircraft any further on their own, for fear of possibly stalling the aircraft. A stall recovery from a mere 7,600 to 10,000 feet (depends which story you believe on the altitude) would be almost impossible in a 727. You would need a lot more altitude than that to recover, I would think. 

So if the aircraft suddenly slows for reasons other than the pilots dropping the throttles down...you have to assume this was caused by an outside force. And that force would be Cooper making the stairs go down with his weight, increasing the drag on the aircraft substantially. Once the speed begins to increase and never really drops again...you could safely assume Cooper had jumped. This scenario fits perfectly the idea that Cooper spent 810-812 moving down the stairs and finally leaping from the back. Cooper guy '377' (Mark M) has speculated that Cooper may have just pulled the ripcord at the bottom of the stairs and let the chute 'squid' out behind him, inflate, and pull him right off the stairs, which he also says would work. The opening shock would not be bad, he said. He should know, he's done more jumps than anyone else in the Cooper community, and has been for decades. I tend to agree with this idea because Cooper did not have a working reserve...and he would be trusting the FBI with the one chute he had to use. Plus...if it didn't open or something, he could go back up and put on the other chute, instead of trusting to a freefall with an FBI-provided parachute. Or...maybe he did just jump and trust it. 

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1 minute ago, RobertMBlevins said:

It is only 21 and a half miles on the freeway between Woodland and Vancouver. This is approximately the same distance as the crow flies between Ariel and the Columbia River. That is about seven minutes worth of flying time. With the jet going a mile every twenty seconds or so, this makes it difficult to pin down an exact jump point. Going on changes in the speed of the aircraft seems like the most sensible way to determine that point. 

Since the pilots were already flying 'dirty' aka lower speed and flaps down, and burning fuel at a furious rate, it is unlikely they would arbitrarily decide to slow the aircraft any further on their own, for fear of possibly stalling the aircraft. A stall recovery from a mere 7,600 to 10,000 feet (depends which story you believe on the altitude) would be almost impossible in a 727. You would need a lot more altitude than that to recover, I would think. 

So if the aircraft suddenly slows for reasons other than the pilots dropping the throttles down...you have to assume this was caused by an outside force. And that force would be Cooper making the stairs go down with his weight, increasing the drag on the aircraft substantially. Once the speed begins to increase and never really drops again...you could safely assume Cooper had jumped. This scenario fits perfectly the idea that Cooper spent 810-812 moving down the stairs and finally leaping from the back. Cooper guy '377' (Mark M) has speculated that Cooper may have just pulled the ripcord at the bottom of the stairs and let the chute 'squid' out behind him, inflate, and pull him right off the stairs, which he also says would work. The opening shock would not be bad, he said. He should know, he's done more jumps than anyone else in the Cooper community, and has been for decades. I tend to agree with this idea because Cooper did not have a working reserve...and he would be trusting the FBI with the one chute he had to use. Plus...if it didn't open or something, he could go back up and put on the other chute, instead of trusting to a freefall with an FBI-provided parachute. Or...maybe he did just jump and trust it. 

The only problem with this is that the pressure bump didn't occur between 8:10 and 8:12 because that is when the oscillations were occurring. Perhaps the crew felt the oscillations and slowed the aircraft, but regardless, Cooper couldn't have jumped any time before 8:13

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(edited)
14 minutes ago, Chaucer said:

Because that is how the crew described them. They assumed the oscillations were caused by Cooper "attempting to do something with the airstairs". Then the pressure bump occurred which we now know is Cooper jumping. Logically, one would conclude that Cooper climbing out on to the stairs caused the oscillations before he jumped.

No where does it say, "Wow, we just experienced a significant pressure bump and now we are getting oscillations." Quite the contrary. It says, "We are getting oscillations." and then no mention of the pressure bump. 

That isn't true the doc I posted referenced the pressure bump felt then oscillations..

"My ear plug came out (pressure bump first) and I uh, we're getting some oscillations.. (oscillations after)"

I don't agree with your assumptions... 

We have reports of oscillations and a pressure bump, nowhere is there anything suggesting the pressure bump occurred after the oscillations.

Edited by FLYJACK

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(edited)
8 minutes ago, Chaucer said:

The only problem with this is that the pressure bump didn't occur between 8:10 and 8:12 because that is when the oscillations were occurring. Perhaps the crew felt the oscillations and slowed the aircraft, but regardless, Cooper couldn't have jumped any time before 8:13

But then why would the aircraft slow to a record level between those times? Something caused that to happen. And it's unlikely that this was done by the pilots themselves. As it is, they were probably worried about stalling, being made to fly that slow with flaps down. Sounds more like an outside force caused the slowing...such as Cooper increasing drag on the aircraft by going down the stairs. We know Cooper's last com with the cockpit was 805PM. He was definitely doing something over the next few minutes. Prior to that, he was also seen by Mucklow putting on the chute and cutting lines, wrapping the money bag, even tying the lines around his waist. By 805 she was already up front with the crew. Cooper would be almost ready to go by the time she left. 

Edited by RobertMBlevins

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(edited)
6 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

That isn't true the doc I posted referenced the pressure bump felt then oscillations..

"My ear plug came out (pressure bump first) and I uh, we're getting some oscillations.. (oscillations after)"

I don't agree with your assumptions... 

We have reports of oscillations and a pressure bump, nowhere is there anything suggesting the pressure bump occurred after the oscillations.

I don't think the "increase in cabin pressure" and the pressure bump are the same thing. I think the increase in cabin pressure described in the doc is part of the ongoing oscillations. 

Also, all crew statements that I am aware of state that the pressure bump came after the oscillations and that the oscillations ended with the pressure bump. 

I also don't recall anything about oscillations occurring after the pressure bump for the sled test either.

Edited by Chaucer

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10 minutes ago, Chaucer said:

The only problem with this is that the pressure bump didn't occur between 8:10 and 8:12 because that is when the oscillations were occurring. Perhaps the crew felt the oscillations and slowed the aircraft, but regardless, Cooper couldn't have jumped any time before 8:13

How do you know the pressure bump didn't occur between 8:10 and 8:12? 

 

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3 minutes ago, Chaucer said:

I don't think the "increase in cabin pressure" and the pressure bump are the same thing. I think the increase in cabin pressure described in the doc is part of the ongoing oscillations. 

Also, all crew statements that I am aware of state that the pressure bump came after the oscillations and that the oscillations ended with the pressure bump. 

I also don't recall anything about oscillations occurring after the pressure bump for the sled test either.

Sure it is that was when the instruments registered it.

There was confusion because they were simultaneous, the pressure bump was the first oscillation.

Edited by FLYJACK

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1 minute ago, FLYJACK said:

How do you know the pressure bump didn't occur between 8:10 and 8:12? 

 

Because that is when the oscillations were occurring. The pressure bump happened after the oscillations. If the oscillations were ongoing at 8:12 then the pressure bump had to have occurred after 8:12. 

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'Oscillations' probably refers to the idea that the flight characteristics of the 727 were changed when Cooper first opened the rear door. Rataczak has said that the stairs would only drop 24-36 inches in flight, because airflow would hold them up to that point...that this was the natural spot they would fall to after opening in flight. This opening of the door in flight could have caused some vibrations up front. You can't make those kind of radical changes to a flight configuration and expect that nothing will happen. 

The so-called pressure bump most likely was a result of the stairs snapping back up almost closed, and then dropping back to the 'natural' point that Rataczak described. They pretty much figured this out during the sled test. 

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6 minutes ago, RobertMBlevins said:

'Oscillations' probably refers to the idea that the flight characteristics of the 727 were changed when Cooper first opened the rear door. Rataczak has said that the stairs would only drop 24-36 inches in flight, because airflow would hold them up to that point...that this was the natural spot they would fall to after opening in flight. This opening of the door in flight could have caused some vibrations up front. You can't make those kind of radical changes to a flight configuration and expect that nothing will happen. 

The so-called pressure bump most likely was a result of the stairs snapping back up almost closed, and then dropping back to the 'natural' point that Rataczak described. They pretty much figured this out during the sled test. 

Right, but not only opening the door, but also lowering the stairs and climbing out on them in-flight would also cause changes that would have been felt by the crew.  And the oscillations were continuing between 8:10 and 8:12; therefore, the "pressure bump" had to have occurred after 8:12. 

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