DB Cooper

[FLYJACK 654]

15 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

That same report says Cooper was wearing the dummy chute. Fly, are you prepared to make this Cooper canon?

 

Olemiss, you fail to recognize the trap you have put yourself in.. now I can add another FAILed argument. You misrepresent my position and attack it.

You want to win an argument so badly that you have abandoned logic and reason.. take a deep breath.

I said it is possible it is an error but there is no evidence or argument to support that.

There are errors in the files and we know it because we have evidence and arguments to identify them..  that is not the case with the matchbook.

You want it accepted that it is an error with no evidence or argument... you tried many arguments and failed.

 

The pieces that need to be explained..

The FBI stated the matchbook had writing in it. 

Cooper took all evidence that had writing on it. His and dictated.

Cooper retrieved the empty matchbook,, why??

Cooper left many other things behind..

 

 

 

Edited January 18 by FLYJACK

[olemisscub 466]

1 minute ago, FLYJACK said:

 

Olemiss, you fail to recognize the trap you have put yourself in.. now I can add another FAILed argument. You misrepresent my position and attack it.

You want to win an argument so badly that you have abandoned logic and reason.. take a deep breath.

I said it is possible it is an error but there is no evidence or argument to support that.

There are errors in the files and we know it because we have evidence and arguments to identify them..  that is not the case with the matchbook.

 

I don't need to take a breath. I'm calm as can be with you. 

How is Farrell's claim that Cooper was wearing his front chute any different than his claim that the matchbook was used to "convey notes."? Both are the ONLY times that such a claim is asserted in the entirety of the FBI Files. 

[Cola 26]

11 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

Palm print was from the seating area.. they don't know if it was Cooper.

Cooper's note was written in felt pen they found a part of a magazine that had felt pen writing and wanted to ask witnesses about it. It wasn't.

 

Show me it wasn't.. how, where, ref this Fly.

I have not sorted out the fingerprints, maybe this is the next project, maybe someone has worked these out and would be kind enough to share...

 

I think the writing and magazine parts were passed by witnesses and they affirmed it was likely Coopers.  I believe this because the prints and palm prints of the magazine parts were specifically used to eliminate Webber.

I need to sort this out, but the prints build,using loose numbers here. At one point the agency has 66 prints at another point a few years later they have like 77 prints. My guess is that the 24-5 prints from the magazine parts combined with the prints for the common areas settled at a final total of 77 prints.  Again, I need to sort this out.

Never the less, Cooper was seen writing by several witnesses and palm prints were from these magazine parts.

 

DB-32393

 

DB - 28129

 

DB-21286

 

 

[FLYJACK 654]

2 minutes ago, Cola said:

 

Show me it wasn't.. how, where, ref this Fly.

I have not sorted out the fingerprints, maybe this is the next project, maybe someone has worked these out and would be kind enough to share...

 

I think the writing and magazine parts were passed by witnesses and they affirmed it was likely Coopers.  I believe this because the prints and palm prints of the magazine parts were specifically used to eliminate Webber.

I need to sort this out, but the prints build,using loose numbers here. At one point the agency has 66 prints at another point a few years later they have like 77 prints. My guess is that the 24-5 prints from the magazine parts combined with the prints for the common areas settled at a final total of 77 prints.  Again, I need to sort this out.

Never the less, Cooper was seen writing by several witnesses and palm prints were from these magazine parts.

 

DB-32393

 

DB - 28129

 

DB-21286

 

 

Magazine not linked to Cooper, the palm print was from the seat arm..

Nobody claimed to see Cooper write with a felt pen, they saw the note that was already written with a felt pen.

[olemisscub 466]

7 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

 

Nobody claimed to see Cooper write

Could have just stopped there. 

[FLYJACK 654]

21 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

I don't need to take a breath. I'm calm as can be with you. 

How is Farrell's claim that Cooper was wearing his front chute any different than his claim that the matchbook was used to "convey notes."? Both are the ONLY times that such a claim is asserted in the entirety of the FBI Files. 

The difference is we have contradictory evidence..

Why is this so difficult for you.

I asked for contradictory evidence/argument for the matchbook and you failed several times..

Now, that doesn't mean it wasn't an error but you can't claim it was with no evidence or argument.

[FLYJACK 654]

4 hours ago, olemisscub said:

Could have just stopped there. 

I was referring to the quote posted... 

,,, you just can't stand being challenged.

Personal attack deleted

Edited January 18 by wmw999

[Cola 26]

6 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

Show me it wasn't.. how, where, ref this Fly.

 

Your potentially kicking out the most important evidence of the case... Coopers prints!!

You have to show me how they were eliminated.

 

[FLYJACK 654]

23 minutes ago, Cola said:

 

Your potentially kicking out the most important evidence of the case... Coopers prints!!

You have to show me how they were eliminated.

 

I don't remember all the details but the magazine was not linked to Cooper..  An agent wrote NO in the margin on one file, Tina said in Tosaw's book he never had a magazine,, and in one file it says there was no connection to Cooper, it was from another seat area. There might be more in the files but I'd have to go looking but IMO it is a dead issue.. I looked at this a long time ago, I had a theory and was looking for a link to that torn magazine.. not there.

The palm print they used was from the seat arm..

There was never any magazine connection to Cooper established,, 

The prints are confusing. lots of conflicting numbers in the files.. having an FBI agent test the magazine prints to Duane in 1997 doesn't mean anything. Maybe he chose the wrong prints to compare..

Edited January 18 by FLYJACK

[olemisscub 466]

27 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

I was referring to the quote posted... 

You are a nasty little fellow,,, you just can't stand being challenged.

I'm nasty? Do you not know what emojis are used for? They are used to convey the tone of a post. You cannot tell tone over the written word. I'm clearly in a light hearted mood, thus the emoji. So there's no need to insult me. I try to be friendly with you and joke around with you but it just doesn't work. I really don't understand how you can watch my videos and think I'm some angry jerk. 

The only reason I post in this ghost town of a forum at all is because I value your insight with most things, but if you're going to just constantly assume that every post I make is done with a stick up my ass wanting to fight you, then there's really no point. I'm not even remotely being combative with you. I've never heard your voice. I don't know what your "energy" is. But you should know mine by now. So how you consistently mistake my tone so fundamentally is a mystery to me.

[Cola 26]

10 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

I don't remember all the details but the magazine was not linked to Cooper..  An agent wrote NO in the margin on one file, Tina said in Tosaw's book he never had a magazine,, and in one file it says there was no connection to Cooper, it was from another seat area. There might be more in the files but I'd have to go looking but IMO it is a dead issue.. I looked at this a long time ago, I had a theory and was looking for a link to that torn magazine.. not there.

The palm print they used was from the seat arm..

There was never any magazine connection to Cooper established,, 

 

 

This is worth getting right.....being exhaustive.

We don't even know the message of what is written on the magazine parts!! Was  this evidence destroyed for having no evidentiary value, was this magazine and parts retained in the evidence files for 50+ years? Looks like these prints were used to rule out Webber, possibly others.

I have to agree with the torn magazine angle. My thinking is that he tore this out, made notes stuffed the notes back in the magazine. When he was leaving for the jump he took the magazine because of prints with him, but  the notes fell out into the seat back. Somewhere there is a unicorn of an inflight magazine missing parts that match up with the evidence.

 We need to stay on this..

[FLYJACK 654]

7 minutes ago, Cola said:

 

This is worth getting right.....being exhaustive.

We don't even know the message of what is written on the magazine parts!! Was  this evidence destroyed for having no evidentiary value, was this magazine and parts retained in the evidence files for 50+ years? Looks like these prints were used to rule out Webber, possibly others.

I have to agree with the torn magazine angle. My thinking is that he tore this out, made notes stuffed the notes back in the magazine. When he was leaving for the jump he took the magazine because of prints with him, but  the notes fell out into the seat back. Somewhere there is a unicorn of an inflight magazine missing parts that match up with the evidence.

 We need to stay on this..

I believe it has nothing to do with with Cooper..  he didn't care about prints..

but if you can find something that links the magazine to Cooper go for it,, I tried years ago but couldn't...  I have a theory that includes a torn magazine..  but I rejected it.

 

[georger 197]

5 hours ago, olemisscub said:

This is correct, according to Tina and Rat's 302's. Yet Flo says she wrote it on a note pad from her purse. 

Why does he want the envelope back???  It can be traced to him somehow ?

It has to be something specific, in his mind, because he is leaving personal forensic evidence all over the place otherwise. He has something specific in mind concerning that envelope ? Or it is an empty nervous reaction on his part ..... ?

Edited January 18 by georger

[Cola 26]

On 1/18/2024 at 4:39 PM, FLYJACK said:

Palm print was from the seating area.. they don't know if it was Cooper.

Cooper's note was written in felt pen they found a part of a magazine that had felt pen writing and wanted to ask witnesses about it. It wasn't.

Witnesses are not claiming to have seen him actively write, they are referring to the initial note.. pre-written by Cooper in felt pen.

Doesn't mean he didn't write.. that file just does not confirm it.

I see the NO - but I do not see a context here. No what?

No - lets not show them, No - its not been done, No - need to follow up we did that, No - it's his, No - it's not his.. whats the timing of this NO in the margin is it 72 , 82, 92...? context would help rule this out.

I trust your judgment and understand there may be more in the record you've seen, but I have to keep this open and not discount it.

On Palm prints from arm rest, I have seen this quoted in here sever times over the years, but I've not seen a source that says a palm print(s) came specifically form the arm rest. If you have this ref please share. 

I'm going to circle back on fingerprints over the next few weeks but will post an update on height this weekend/sun.

 

 

[JAGdb 71]

Well, I finally picked up the Gunther book and read it.  It was a very good read.  I can see how the book fills that empty void to the story that us Cooperites are hungry for.  While I didn't like the fact that the story had him abandoning his family, I still found myself rooting for him. In some ways, it feels like it is a little bit of a tease, coming just close enough, but not far enough to completely convince you.  

Here are some quick hits that caught my attention:

• Gunther has Cooper in the incorrect row, 15 instead of row 18.  Was this information not available at the time that the book was written ?  I can understand Clara getting this wrong after 10 years.

• Page 33,34: Captain Scott leaves the cockpit and goes back to talk to Cooper. According to canon, this did not happen.  This is a huge discrepancy that raises credibility concerns. 

• Page 36, (very bottom): "No, I don't want military chutes.  They've got to be civilian type.  With a rip chord".  I believe this is unique to Gunther right  i.e. it isn't in any of the 302s or other sources ? Did Gunther get this from Clara ?  Or from Himmlesbach ? 

• Page 42, (middle): "Use the aft stairs"   Cooper telling the crew to have the passengers exit the plan via the aft stairs.  My understanding is that the only time the aft stairs were opened after 305 left Portland was when Cooper opened them to jump.  So this would be another one of those discrepancies in the story that leave you scratching your head a little bit.

• Page 47, (top) Cooper tells the crew that he has an altimeter stop watch on his wrist. So this must have come from Clara.  If this was true, I would think that once the FBI read Gunther's account, they would have had their eye brows raised and convinced that the person who contacted Gunther was legit.  So this bothers me a bit.

• Page 137, the bomb was made of red painted tin cans.  This is another discrepancy.  Tina said that the bomb looked like it had sticks.   When we hear the word "sticks", we think thinner in diameter and longer in length.  Where as with "tin cans", I think of  standard soup cans like Campbells or something.  They are larger in diameter and shorted in length.  Unless they could have been confused by Tina, which I find hard to believe.

• Page 143, he talks about a canvas pack here and I believe in another earlier section of the book which I forgot to note.  It was a little confusing as to whether this is simply the bank bag that the money was delivered in or if this could be that mysterious bag that the hijacker reportedly had, do you guys have a read on this ?

• Page 143,  He reportedly asks the crew "Where are we now?"  Another huge discrepancy in the official story.  To me, another example that if it was true, the FBI would be all over this being the real hijacker. 

• The scar on the hand, (I lost the page number), is this the origin of the scar or is there another independent source that states the hijacker had a scar on his hand ?

• One part that I find difficult to believe is how he was able to just walk away from his kids.  I can kind of understand the wife part of it .   I know he connects with his daughter, but still...what about your son ?  You could just walk away from him for the rest of your life ?  Man that is tough to buy.  In addition, the idea that the daughter could completely keep this secret from her mother and brother ?

• And then, as far as we know, once the book was published, the person(s) never reached out to Gunther ever again--well this is my assumption as I don't know this for sure.   It's just so bizarre, it doesn't add up.
   

 All in all, I enjoyed the book.  It's fresh in my mind right now, I am still processing it in terms of where I stand.  Is it just the  product of a hoaxer with a very good writer or is there some merit to it ? There's a hell of a lot of detail for someone to go this far out of their way, and the curious fact where it spanned a period of 10 years of silence from first contact followed by new contact and what appears to be hours and hours of phone calls telling the story...for no money ever paid out.  

Edited January 20 by JAGdb

[Math of Insects 96]

A fun bit of fiction, deftly executed, about which it's best not to ask too many questions or it all falls apart.

 

[Cola 26]

13 hours ago, JAGdb said:

All in all, I enjoyed the book.

JAG- thank you so much for the synopsis...

I take back ever saying -at best - Gunther's work could be a "plausible half-truth" and strongly move his work to being at best "random coincidence".

The tell, the break in reality.

13 hours ago, JAGdb said:

Page 137, the bomb was made of red painted tin cans.

 

[ParrotheadVol 70]

42 minutes ago, Cola said:

JAG- thank you so much for the synopsis...

I take back ever saying -at best - Gunther's work could be a "plausible half-truth" and strongly move his work to being at best "random coincidence".

The tell, the break in reality.

 

Playing devils advocate, what if the bomb were real, but Coop didn't want to tell Clara the bomb was real so he made that part up. 

That's not what I believe, but I don't consider that part to be "The Tell".

[ParrotheadVol 70]

14 hours ago, JAGdb said:

One part that I find difficult to believe is how he was able to just walk away from his kids.  I can kind of understand the wife part of it .   I know he connects with his daughter, but still...what about your son ?  You could just walk away from him for the rest of your life ?  Man that is tough to buy.  In addition, the idea that the daughter could completely keep this secret from her mother and brother ?

I could never do that myself, but many men have done that. Melvin Wilson did it for obvious reasons. But then you've got a guy like Lepsy, who seemingly just walked away from his wife and kids.

Cooper could very well be one of these kinds of men.

As far as the Gunther book goes, I recently read it as well. I enjoyed it. If I had to lay money on it, I'm betting hoax.

[Cola 26]

1 hour ago, ParrotheadVol said:

That's not what I believe, but I don't consider that part to be "The Tell".

 

 

2 hours ago, Cola said:

Page 137, the bomb was made of red painted tin cans.

 

My take is that this is a visual absurdity.

Painted tin cans! If Gunther wanted to try overt humor he could have wrote it were a bundle of steely-dans that were observed.

I view this line as Gunther's compositional wink wink to the reader. That he's typing away well into the evening and has a good chuckle at putting down this line. 

I chose to think that this is a tell.

 

[CooperNWO305 146]

One thing I think we’ve shied away from in this case is the confinements of marriage and kids and work. Maybe that is why Gunther’s stories and books resonated with men of the 70s. Back then divorce was just not the option that it is now. A middle aged man tied down with the complexities of life and at the end of his rope very well could be who Cooper was. It’s a taboo subject in this present time, but being tied down is tough for many. I wonder too if that is why men are so attracted to this case and not women. How many men don’t dream of getting away, if just for a moment?

Was Cooper a loner with no family and friends? Possibly. No kid wants to think of their father or grandfather wanting to get away, but many men do it. 

[Andrade1812 51]

1 hour ago, Cola said:

 

 

 

My take is that this is a visual absurdity.

Painted tin cans! If Gunther wanted to try overt humor he could have wrote it were a bundle of steely-dans that were observed.

I view this line as Gunther's compositional wink wink to the reader. That he's typing away well into the evening and has a good chuckle at putting down this line. 

I chose to think that this is a tell.

 

You can take the top and bottom of the can off with a can opener, then you have a 6 to 8 inch piece of trim coil you can roll into something shaped like dynamite. If you dress it up with wires and tape and make an effort you might get something that passes for an ied. 

I don't happen to believe this but it's plausible-ish. I like the idea of the fake bomb being a ploy by Cooper to Clara to avoid the telling her the fact the dynamite was real.

[CooperNWO305 146]

59 minutes ago, Andrade1812 said:

You can take the top and bottom of the can off with a can opener, then you have a 6 to 8 inch piece of trim coil you can roll into something shaped like dynamite. If you dress it up with wires and tape and make an effort you might get something that passes for an ied. 

I don't happen to believe this but it's plausible-ish. I like the idea of the fake bomb being a ploy by Cooper to Clara to avoid the telling her the fact the dynamite was real.

It’s only a matter of time before the DNA from the letter and stamp tell a story. If it is Gunther’s, then I’ll eat crow. If it isn’t, then I’ll relish in the fact that the haters were wrong. 

[olemisscub 466]

1 hour ago, CooperNWO305 said:

It’s only a matter of time before the DNA from the letter and stamp tell a story. If it is Gunther’s, then I’ll eat crow. If it isn’t, then I’ll relish in the fact that the haters were wrong. 

Didn't they tell you that it was male DNA?

[Andrade1812 51]

34 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

Didn't they tell you that it was male DNA?

And that's just it, the male DNA is evidence of some level of hoax. The question is how much of a hoax, what kind of hoax, and what motivated the hoaxer[s]