DB Cooper

[CooperNWO305 146]

51 minutes ago, Andrade1812 said:

And that's just it, the male DNA is evidence of some level of hoax. The question is how much of a hoax, what kind of hoax, and what motivated the hoaxer[s]

Male DNA. That indicates a team, at least a female to call Gunther and a male who licked the stamp. Or a male who did it all. 

[Math of Insects 96]

That's sort of like finding out the hot chick you've been texting with is some old fat guy who lives in his mom's basement, and deciding he must be helping his much hotter sister to text you.

[georger 197]

9 hours ago, CooperNWO305 said:

Male DNA. That indicates a team, at least a female to call Gunther and a male who licked the stamp. Or a male who did it all. 

So where are the stamp dna test reports ?  Available to the public or only to officials in North Korea ? I want to see the data! One rumor claims two male donors ?

Edited January 21 by georger

[Cola 26]

 

On 1/18/2024 at 2:16 PM, FLYJACK said:

The long time dominant narrative was that he took the matchbook back because of prints. FALSE

 

On 1/18/2024 at 3:05 PM, olemisscub said:

As for the matchbook, it may have had writing in it from an earlier time,

 

I don't think the ICS matches pair with Cooper.

I think a middle aged man, a life long smoker, in 71, that guy has a personalized zippo with his name engraved on it. 

That's a must have trinket of that era, one of those things a sweetheart would give you.

Now here Coops is going into this job and he's not about to use a personalized item so he acquires some matches on his way. Maybe he's concerned that the ICS matchbook has some faint association with someone or some place. Possibly the matches belong to a cabbie, a bellhop, a clerk, an associate, an accomplice, some non- random individual whom Coops pinched them from.

If there was no writing within or he genuinely was unconcerned with fingerprints then I lean toward the matches having some vague symbolic association to an earlier time for Coops. In his mind he panics a bit seeing them tossed out.  Coops knows he took those from a such and such, or a here and there, I can't leave that as evidence!

Maybe he did go to a restaurant for the Sky Chef, or Tina did grabbed them for him, who knows. At least  there is no Agency confirmation that I have seen within the 302's that the Portland airport had a Sky Chef restaurant...

No matter what Coops is not bringing out a zippo with his name engraved on it to hand over to some stew.

This is just a though, not assigning a statistical likelihood of this.

Edited January 21 by Cola

[olemisscub 466]

1 hour ago, Cola said:

 

Maybe he did go to a restaurant for the Sky Chef, or Tina did grabbed them for him, who knows. At least  there is no Agency confirmation that I have seen within the 302's that the Portland airport had a Sky Chef restaurant...

 

PDX had one

[CooperNWO305 146]

10 hours ago, georger said:

So where are the stamp dna test reports ?  Available to the public or only to officials in North Korea ? I want to see the data! One rumor claims two male donors ?

Georger. You made it clear that Gunther made the whole thing up. No need to worry yourself and be part of this piece of the conversation. 

[georger 197]

1 hour ago, CooperNWO305 said:

Georger. You made it clear that Gunther made the whole thing up. No need to worry yourself and be part of this piece of the conversation. 

Dont worry. Others are discussing professional dna testing - I am part of that conversation, in the background. I hope there is a breakthrough by summer. The sooner the better. But, professional guidance is necessary. Good people are conversing about what it will take etc. Permissions need to be obtained with a solid plan . . . etc. The outlook is positive due to the good people involved ... Im optimistic something worthwhile may happen.

Edited January 21 by georger

[Cola 26]

On 1/11/2024 at 8:29 PM, Cola said:

  On 1/9/2024 at 12:00 AM, Cola said:

Trying to close out Height so if I missed something please kick in a reference. I welcome any critiques. 

Previous Height REF- DZ post #62990

https://www.dropzone.com/forums/topic/56036-db-cooper/?do=findComment&comment=5024687

 

 

Previous Height Update REF- DZ post #63008

https://www.dropzone.com/forums/topic/56036-db-cooper/?do=findComment&comment=5024826

 

Sorry for the long post but just trying to be exhaustive on height..

 

Height Update Final

 

 

Verified Standing Observations:

 

Flo - 6'0 in her interview 

 

Flo - 6'1 cockpit notes and in the teletype at 3:54

 

Tina - 5'10 - 6' first Interview Reno

 

Tina - 6' second interview Philly

 

Hal Williams - Gate agent - 6'1+

 

Denis Lysne - ticket agent -  5'10 or 5’11

 

Nancy House - No recorded statement of height

 

 

 

Likely Standing Observation :

 

Alice - 6'1

 

 

 

Verified Seated Observations:

 

Bill Mitchell - 5'9 to 5'10

 

Robert Gregory - 5'9

 

Labissoniere - 5'10

 

Cord Spreckel - 5'10

 

 

 

Ckret- 5'10 to 6'1

 

Overall take on height :

 

Cooper’s Height is clearly segmented.

 

With the exception of Denis Lynse, those that observed Cooper standing put him at 6' - 6’1.

Tina in her initial Reno interview provided a range of 5’10-6' but ultimately provided no range just a flat 6' in her final Philly interview.   Hal, Flo and Alice all at one time put Cooper at 6’1. Flo revised her initial reported 6’1 in her notes lowering him to 6ft from her SEA- TAC interview. Flow and Alice’s estimates of height were in all likelihood provided within 1 hour of being in Coopers presence. Where Tina's initial recall on height was provided more than 3+ hours after last contact.   

Those that observed Cooper seated place him at roughly 5’10.

Robert Gregory the only witness whom put him on the low side of 5’9 noted that he  observed  Cooper in a posture of being sunk-down in his seat, slouched.  Bill Mitchell whom provided a range of 5’9-5’10 predominantly observed Cooper from the vantage of looking across one empty seat, an isle, and past Tina to see Cooper seated in the middle seat. There is nothing that indicates Bill observed Cooper other than form a seated position. Both Robert Gregory and Labissoniere observed Cooper while they went to the lavatory.   

 

Estimated Duration and Quality of Observation

 

Hal Williams – 5 to 35+ minutes  between 2:05- 2:40+ – Observation was people watching.

 

This is almost exclusively an observation. This appears to be an idle moment where Hal was not occupied with servicing customers. Standing by the gate Hal is observing the passengers to pass the time, “people watching”.

His full attention appears to have been on Cooper as he singled Cooper out from the crowd specifically for his dress and for his demeaner. This means Hal established a base line observation of the crowd and  isolated Cooper by his attire and by his behavior relative to the crowd. 

Possibly of all the witnesses, Hal’s observation on Cooper’s height was the longest. We do not know how much time Hal himself was at the gate nor do we know how much time Cooper was at the gate.

The perspective of Hal’s observation was relative to others and without a scale distortion from inside the cabin. There was potentially an observation relative to  Himself as Cooper exited the gate area at boarding, or handed Hal his ticket to rip out a stub.

 

Denis Lynse –  2-5 minutes.  Observation was a service interaction.

 

Sometime after 2pm and likely concluding within 3-5 minutes.

Denis has a perspective relative to oneself at a distance of 2-3 ft form behind a ticket counter.

The position of a ticket agent is about service and thru put. You process passengers and collect fares.

There was a “Long line” noted as having formed prior to this interaction with Cooper. Lynse in qualifying a Long  line in his statement was likely running behind and very expeditious in handling Cooper. As lines build there is a natural urgency to process individuals quicker.

This interaction began with  a greeting, Cooper stating destination, Denis asking is that one way or round trip,  Any bags, your name,  that’ll be $20, Cooper reaching into pocket- billfold and providing exact change, one of them filling out the Ticket name,  adding Dan Cooper to a flight manifest, print/stamp /issue the ticket, concluding with Denis directing the passenger to the gate. 

I think it is safe to presume that under normal conditions this interaction could have been accomplished well under 5 minutes and under rushed conditions likely between 2-3 minutes.

This was not as much of an observation as it was an ordinary customer interaction.

 

 

Flo 1 – 5+ minutes - Observation was a Greeting, conversation & fitting harness.

 

Flo’s perspective was on the tarmac - in the open, upon approach and relative to oneself. 

Greeting of 2 -10+ seconds @ boarding

Asking questions while putting on Harness/parachute maybe within the 2 -5+ minute range

Cooper was putting on the parachute in front of Flo and likely in front of Alice. Flo may have been asking him questions about his final destination and if the girls were going with him or  could get off. This conversation may have occurred while he was putting on the harness for the chute which may be why she indicates his attention dropped from her questioning. 

Also there are several moments where Cooper may have been standing in her presence.  When she observed him acting child like, when he told Flo to pick up the ransom, when he  reached into his pocket and tried to hand flow a tip. After he had put on the harness and back parachute he likely did not take a seat immediately.

 

Tina  1- 3+ minutes, she observed Coops standing 3 times minimum.

1) In her initial statement Tina said she only saw him stand when he went to the lavatory. It’s possible she was sitting next to him, isle seat, and had to get up to let him out for his trip to the lavatory.   

2) In her second interview she stated that they both went to the airstairs control panel at takeoff. Standing next to him Tina gave him instructions and they both took their seats.

3) Last observation was seeing him “standing in the isle” as she drew the curtain and pleaded with him to take the bomb or disarm it. Although this is at a distance and presumed under dim lighting conditions.

There are also moments  of Tinas interaction which have enough movement to be interpreted as not likely being conducted form a seated position. Wrapping the bank bag, cutting up the parachute, inspecting the 4 chutes, there is quite a bit of movement in these actions.

It is hard to imagine removing a parachute and paracord from a container without standing up.  further it is hard to imagine wrapping 14 feet of paracord around a bag top to bottom side to side, form a seated position. I personally have an image of him kneeling in the isle to cannibalize these shroud lines with his pocket knife. But that’s my imagination.   Tina may have seen him stand during these actions.

Also his isle became quite crowded as Tina brought him more stuff, his Case, a harness, 4 parachutes ,the ransom, an unpacked parachute. It’s natural to think that he may have stood up spread these items out a bit and organize himself infront of Flo or Tina.

The unpacked parachute came to rest draped over  Row 17 across the isle and one row up form 18E which Cooper occupied.  A Back type parachute came to rest across the isle in seat 18B.  there is no question Cooper stood to move these items but when during Tina’s presence or after she went to the Cabin.

I also imagine, that after the harness and back parachute were on Cooper may have stood for a while or that he would have changed his posture and sat more upright on the edge of the seat rather than relaxing with the back chute on against the seat back. This changes the way in which Tina would observe his posture from being slouched to upright.

 

Alice’s Observation may have been close to what Flo observed 1-5+ min

 

If Flo’s interview is sequential then Alice may have been present for Florence’s questioning of Cooper on destination and if the stewardesses were going /could exit. Like Flo, Alice may have observed Cooper standing while putting on the parachute.

 

 

Seated Observations –

 

Bill Mitchell – Observation intermittent over nearly the entire duration of the flight

 

Observation was looking across an isle and past Tina.  He was not suspicious of Cooper but took an interest in him. Bill himself may have only observed Cooper  while he himself was seated. Mitchell is 6’2” – 220lbs and noted that Cooper seemed smaller than him that he felt he could have yanked him out of his seat if he wanted. Cooper had a medium build. 

Robert Gregory 1-2 minutes

 

Observed of Cooper in passing as he went to the lavatory. Had one hard look  at him when deplaning at distance of 4+ rows. Noted Cooper appeared to be a short individual but that his posture was slouched down in seat.

Labissoniere 2-5 minutes

 

Observed Cooper in passing several as he went to the lavatory. He was blocked once coming out to the lavatory and observed an interaction between Tina, the Cowboy and Cooper. Took notice of Cooper. He is reported as having some suspicion of Cooper.

Cord Spreckle – 2-4 minutes.

 

Observed Cooper from where he was seated which was the left of the plane two rows from the rear. May have further observed Cooper when he moved seats forward while circling SEA-TAC. 10 minutes after takeoff he thought there was a problem.  He indicated some suspicion in seeing Tina on the phone constantly.

My take on height is still that Cooper's range is 5'11-6'1, my sweet spot is that he was 6ft. I have significantly greater confidence in those witnesses that observed him standing vs seated estimates of his height. Hal seems to have had the best observation with Flo placing second followed by Alice or Tina, IMO.  

 

Edited January 21 by Cola

[CooperNWO305 146]

2 hours ago, Cola said:

Trying to close out Height so if I missed something please kick in a reference. I welcome any critiques. 

Previous Height REF- DZ post #62990

https://www.dropzone.com/forums/topic/56036-db-cooper/?do=findComment&comment=5024687

 

 

Previous Height Update REF- DZ post #63008

https://www.dropzone.com/forums/topic/56036-db-cooper/?do=findComment&comment=5024826

 

Sorry for the long post but just trying to be exhaustive on height..

 

Height Update Final

 

 

Verified Standing Observations:

 

Flo - 6'0 in her interview 

 

Flo - 6'1 cockpit notes and in the teletype at 3:54

 

Tina - 5'10 - 6' first Interview Reno

 

Tina - 6' second interview Philly

 

Hal Williams - Gate agent - 6'1+

 

Denis Lysne - ticket agent -  5'10 or 5’11

 

Nancy House - No recorded statement of height

 

 

 

Likely Standing Observation :

 

Alice - 6'1

 

 

 

Verified Seated Observations:

 

Bill Mitchell - 5'9 to 5'10

 

Robert Gregory - 5'9

 

Labissoniere - 5'10

 

Cord Spreckel - 5'10

 

 

 

Ckret- 5'10 to 6'1

 

Overall take on height :

 

Cooper’s Height is clearly segmented.

 

With the exception of Denis Lynse, those that observed Cooper standing put him at 6' - 6’1.

Tina in her initial Reno interview provided a range of 5’10-6' but ultimately provided no range just a flat 6' in her final Philly interview.   Hal, Flo and Alice all at one time put Cooper at 6’1. Flo revised her initial reported 6’1 in her notes lowering him to 6ft from her SEA- TAC interview. Flow and Alice’s estimates of height were in all likelihood provided within 1 hour of being in Coopers presence. Where Tina's initial recall on height was provided more than 3+ hours after last contact.   

Those that observed Cooper seated place him at roughly 5’10.

Robert Gregory the only witness whom put him on the low side of 5’9 noted that he  observed  Cooper in a posture of being sunk-down in his seat, slouched.  Bill Mitchell whom provided a range of 5’9-5’10 predominantly observed Cooper from the vantage of looking across one empty seat, an isle, and past Tina to see Cooper seated in the middle seat. There is nothing that indicates Bill observed Cooper other than form a seated position. Both Robert Gregory and Labissoniere observed Cooper while they went to the lavatory.   

 

Estimated Duration and Quality of Observation

 

Hal Williams – 5 to 35+ minutes  between 2:05- 2:40+ – Observation was people watching.

 

This is almost exclusively an observation. This appears to be an idle moment where Hal was not occupied with servicing customers. Standing by the gate Hal is observing the passengers to pass the time, “people watching”.

His full attention appears to have been on Cooper as he singled Cooper out from the crowd specifically for his dress and for his demeaner. This means Hal established a base line observation of the crowd and  isolated Cooper by his attire and by his behavior relative to the crowd. 

Possibly of all the witnesses, Hal’s observation on Cooper’s height was the longest. We do not know how much time Hal himself was at the gate nor do we know how much time Cooper was at the gate.

The perspective of Hal’s observation was relative to others and without a scale distortion from inside the cabin. There was potentially an observation relative to  Himself as Cooper exited the gate area at boarding, or handed Hal his ticket to rip out a stub.

 

Denis Lynse –  2-5 minutes.  Observation was a service interaction.

 

Sometime after 2pm and likely concluding within 3-5 minutes.

Denis has a perspective relative to oneself at a distance of 2-3 ft form behind a ticket counter.

The position of a ticket agent is about service and thru put. You process passengers and collect fares.

There was a “Long line” noted as having formed prior to this interaction with Cooper. Lynse in qualifying a Long  line in his statement was likely running behind and very expeditious in handling Cooper. As lines build there is a natural urgency to process individuals quicker.

This interaction began with  a greeting, Cooper stating destination, Denis asking is that one way or round trip,  Any bags, your name,  that’ll be $20, Cooper reaching into pocket- billfold and providing exact change, one of them filling out the Ticket name,  adding Dan Cooper to a flight manifest, print/stamp /issue the ticket, concluding with Denis directing the passenger to the gate. 

I think it is safe to presume that under normal conditions this interaction could have been accomplished well under 5 minutes and under rushed conditions likely between 2-3 minutes.

This was not as much of an observation as it was an ordinary customer interaction.

 

 

Flo 1 – 5+ minutes - Observation was a Greeting, conversation & fitting harness.

 

Flo’s perspective was on the tarmac - in the open, upon approach and relative to oneself. 

Greeting of 2 -10+ seconds @ boarding

Asking questions while putting on Harness/parachute maybe within the 2 -5+ minute range

Cooper was putting on the parachute in front of Flo and likely in front of Alice. Flo may have been asking him questions about his final destination and if the girls were going with him or  could get off. This conversation may have occurred while he was putting on the harness for the chute which may be why she indicates his attention dropped from her questioning. 

Also there are several moments where Cooper may have been standing in her presence.  When she observed him acting child like, when he told Flo to pick up the ransom, when he  reached into his pocket and tried to hand flow a tip. After he had put on the harness and back parachute he likely did not take a seat immediately.

 

Tina  1- 3+ minutes, she observed Coops standing 3 times minimum.

1) In her initial statement Tina said she only saw him stand when he went to the lavatory. It’s possible she was sitting next to him, isle seat, and had to get up to let him out for his trip to the lavatory.   

2) In her second interview she stated that they both went to the airstairs control panel at takeoff. Standing next to him Tina gave him instructions and they both took their seats.

3) Last observation was seeing him “standing in the isle” as she drew the curtain and pleaded with him to take the bomb or disarm it. Although this is at a distance and presumed under dim lighting conditions.

There are also moments  of Tinas interaction which have enough movement to be interpreted as not likely being conducted form a seated position. Wrapping the bank bag, cutting up the parachute, inspecting the 4 chutes, there is quite a bit of movement in these actions.

It is hard to imagine removing a parachute and paracord from a container without standing up.  further it is hard to imagine wrapping 14 feet of paracord around a bag top to bottom side to side, form a seated position. I personally have an image of him kneeling in the isle to cannibalize these shroud lines with his pocket knife. But that’s my imagination.   Tina may have seen him stand during these actions.

Also his isle became quite crowded as Tina brought him more stuff, his Case, a harness, 4 parachutes ,the ransom, an unpacked parachute. It’s natural to think that he may have stood up spread these items out a bit and organize himself infront of Flo or Tina.

The unpacked parachute came to rest draped over  Row 17 across the isle and one row up form 18E which Cooper occupied.  A Back type parachute came to rest across the isle in seat 18B.  there is no question Cooper stood to move these items but when during Tina’s presence or after she went to the Cabin.

I also imagine, that after the harness and back parachute were on Cooper may have stood for a while or that he would have changed his posture and sat more upright on the edge of the seat rather than relaxing with the back chute on against the seat back. This changes the way in which Tina would observe his posture from being slouched to upright.

 

Alice’s Observation may have been close to what Flo observed 1-5+ min

 

If Flo’s interview is sequential then Alice may have been present for Florence’s questioning of Cooper on destination and if the stewardesses were going /could exit. Like Flo, Alice may have observed Cooper standing while putting on the parachute.

 

 

Seated Observations –

 

Bill Mitchell – Observation intermittent over nearly the entire duration of the flight

 

Observation was looking across an isle and past Tina.  He was not suspicious of Cooper but took an interest in him. Bill himself may have only observed Cooper  while he himself was seated. Mitchell is 6’2” – 220lbs and noted that Cooper seemed smaller than him that he felt he could have yanked him out of his seat if he wanted. Cooper had a medium build. 

Robert Gregory 1-2 minutes

 

Observed of Cooper in passing as he went to the lavatory. Had one hard look  at him when deplaning at distance of 4+ rows. Noted Cooper appeared to be a short individual but that his posture was slouched down in seat.

Labissoniere 2-5 minutes

 

Observed Cooper in passing several as he went to the lavatory. He was blocked once coming out to the lavatory and observed an interaction between Tina, the Cowboy and Cooper. Took notice of Cooper. He is reported as having some suspicion of Cooper.

Cord Spreckle – 2-4 minutes.

 

Observed Cooper from where he was seated which was the left of the plane two rows from the rear. May have further observed Cooper when he moved seats forward while circling SEA-TAC. 10 minutes after takeoff he thought there was a problem.  He indicated some suspicion in seeing Tina on the phone constantly.

My take on height is still that Cooper's range is 5'11-6'1, my sweet spot is that he was 6ft. I have significantly greater confidence in those witnesses that observed him standing vs seated estimates of his height. Hal seems to have had the best observation with Flo placing second followed by Alice or Tina, IMO.  

 

Your height estimate. What is it in shoes and barefeet?

[CooperNWO305 146]

For those not on Facebook, I posted this. 
 

February 1971 Ladies Home Journal mentioned in the first Gunther letter. A very similar story to the one he wrote in True in 1962. I suspect it was this 1971 article that triggered something and maybe made someone remember the 1962 article. For those who are looking for someone who ran away and never came back, this is where it came from. The Gunther letters indicate someone not totally satisfied with middle class suburban life. So to rule someone out who never actually disappeared shows a lack of creative thinking, poor knowledge of the book or having not read it at all, or not understanding Gunther’s previous articles. I had actually made a similar mistake when I first started, but once I was set straight by another researcher, I realized these articles existed. That was a few weeks into my research. Yet there are still people parroting this same angle after years of knowing about these articles. I’ll write more over at DZ.

BREAK

Some additional thoughts. The anti Gunther and anti Smith team continue to grasp at straws. I’ve heard the term “victimized” used to describe one of Smith’s family members, yet it was a member that is not me who has been posting screen shots with her name. He is using her for his own personal vendetta and I believe she may be too trusting to understand what is going on. This anti Smith team could easily have made contact five years ago when The Oregonian article came out, but they didn’t. They are not in it to help the Smith family, only help themselves. Remember, the Oregonian thought the Gunther connections were pretty good, as do many others.  But, I digress. 
 

Rather than bury their head in the sand like is happening, I would suggest asking about some of the coincidences in Gunther’s book. Once you take away the hijack and disappearance section, you’re not left with many details.  I’d be asking why the following items made it into a book. And contrary to statements made by biased, uninformed and low level thinkers, not everyone’s life can be made to fit this book. Also, in 1982 there were just not ways to cross check this info like we have now. In 1982 we only just got hold of the 1910 census.  No Facebook no military records etc. like we have now. 
 

So. How do these items make it into the book and family does not wonder what is going on? Dan Clair’s son saw the connections. He’s a bright guy.

A connection to NYC through post marks and knowing the phone booth at the Pan Am Building.

Wife’s birthday of March 2.

Born in Canada goes to Newark joins Army  

Gets a camera as a gift as a kid and his hobby is taking pics at his high school. **This one should give Smith’s family pause.

A family property by a small lake. How many families can say their father and mother’s families had lake property on the same lake?

A family member who goes on a long trip overseas. 
 

A scar on his hand, enough to note it. Again, Smith’s family should think. 

Someone in their life named Paul Cotton. Not too many in the US in the 1920s-40s. Yet one lived in Bloomfield, NJ. Oh, and a Clara named hospital right near Smiths’s house.

 

Most suspects are ruled out quickly by age, or looks, or a number of other things. When this doesn’t happen, it’s time to maybe sit and think that maybe there is more going on. Maybe it’s denial, maybe it’s more, maybe some people will begin to think on their own and not be manipulated by a couple Cooperites with their own vendettas.  A few of us have offered to do all of this behind the scenes and keep quiet, but I wonder now if that time has passed.  Threats, veiled threats, and attempting to cost someone their job and career are quite over the line.

Someone out there was DB Cooper.

 

 

 

[Math of Insects 96]

So random bad-ass DB Cooper is sitting around one day and thinks, "You know what I'd like to do is read me some good ole "'Ladies Home Journal.'" Maybe he's in the doctor's office and there's one there. Maybe he's eating donuts and has an urge. Either way, he secures a copy of the woman's magazine. Being an open-minded 50-year-old in 1971, sort of an OG Wokey, he thinks, "I'm curious to know the plight of 'Wives Who Run Away.'" He reads the article entitled this and is ENTRANCED!! CAPTIVATED!!

"THIS IS THE GREATEST ARTICLE I'VE EVER READ!" he thinks. "It reminds me of an article I read 10 years ago that made such an impression on me that I've never forgotten the exact spelling and punctuation of the title! Neither war nor work nor wandering nor woman nor wee ones have shaken my completely accurate memory of this article and its title, which I can replicate down to the hyphen, all these years later. But that article was by the World's Greatest Anonymous Magazine author, whose name is known to me, random person in the world, to be Max Gunther. I wonder who wrote this AMAZING ARTICLE ABOUT WIVES WHO LEAVE FROM THIS WOMAN'S MAGAZINE!!"

Imagine random bad-ass Cooper's squeals of glee as he discovers that this amazing article was also by his favorite anonymous magazine writer. He thinks, "You know, I was going to keep this skyjacking to myself since it's a very recent crime that will definitely get me thrown into prison for life. But the heck with it. Someone who writes two articles that I like would never turn me in! This is the guy I will tell my story to! He'll understand me and would never betray me."

So this is what he does. He writes a letter that reveals that the anonymous magazine writer has CHANGED HIS WHOLE LIFE, and includes, as the longest paragraph of that letter, a correctly-spelled career retrospective of that writer. Because he knows that if you compliment people they never turn you in for federal crimes. 

For good measure, he also sends the letter to two other people, just because the world is a trustworthy place and they would never betray him either. Nevermind the whole reason he sent it to Gunther is because of these LIFE-CHANGING ARTICLES. The other guys would probably have changed his life too if they'd ever had the chance. The important thing, if you're a wanted criminal, is to trust everyone and tell your story every chance you get.

Also, Cooper is shrewd. Somehow he knows to send his other letters only to people Gunther knows, and somehow he also knows that they'll die before anyone ever asks them about the letters. And he knows that after they die, those letters will never be found.

Most good reporters, when handed a blockbuster exclusive about a high-profile crime, never tell anyone about it or do anything about it. What's a career when there are turkey sandwiches to eat and crossword puzzles to do.

Then years go by and Cooper's story is related to this trustworthy anonymous magazine writer. And wouldn't you know it. Of all the Coopers in all the gin joints in all the towns in all the world, this Cooper turns out not just to have lived in all the places the magazine writer lived, but shared multiple biographical details with that magazine writer. It's fate!! Kismet!! A match made in a doctor's office waiting room. Even the typo in the letter matches the author's wife's name. Insane!! 

Then, after the story is over--a story that bears no mention of any kind of "accomplice" or "two-man operation" or friend or anything--someone finds a picture of a completely different person at the place our Cooper worked, and figures out what must have happened. It was TWO PEOPLE. Obviously! This is not some guy in the world who looks, as an old man, how the sketched Cooper might be imagined to look. This is obviously THE ACTUAL COOPER, which was apparently a different person than the one who wrote the letters or called the author, and even though this new guy's story doesn't match the biography of the version of Cooper in the book--the one that matches the author's own life details--the only logical conclusion is that the new guy is really Cooper and the whole thing was an elaborate ruse to tell...wait a minute. To tell a whole different story than the real one? But wasn't the whole point supposed to be to get the "real" story out there through an anonymous magazine author that the hijacker trusted and connected with? Nevermind, the point is, LOOK AT THAT PICTURE OF THE NICE OLD MAN IN THE SWEATER. If that's not Cooper, I don't know who is.

Or the whole thing could have been the exact thing it looks like, which is fiction written by Gunther. But what are the chances of that??

 

Edited January 22 by Math of Insects

[georger 197]

2 hours ago, Math of Insects said:

So random bad-ass DB Cooper is sitting around one day and thinks, "You know what I'd like to do is read me some good ole "'Ladies Home Journal.'" Maybe he's in the doctor's office and there's one there. Maybe he's eating donuts and has an urge. Either way, he secures a copy of the woman's magazine. Being an open-minded 50-year-old in 1971, sort of an OG Wokey, he thinks, "I'm curious to know the plight of 'Wives Who Run Away.'" He reads the article entitled this and is ENTRANCED!! CAPTIVATED!!

"THIS IS THE GREATEST ARTICLE I'VE EVER READ!" he thinks. "It reminds me of an article I read 10 years ago that made such an impression on me that I've never forgotten the exact spelling and punctuation of the title! Neither war nor work nor wandering nor woman nor wee ones have shaken my completely accurate memory of this article and its title, which I can replicate down to the hyphen, all these years later. But that article was by the World's Greatest Anonymous Magazine author, whose name is known to me, random person in the world, to be Max Gunther. I wonder who wrote this AMAZING ARTICLE ABOUT WIVES WHO LEAVE FROM THIS WOMAN'S MAGAZINE!!"

Imagine random bad-ass Cooper's squeals of glee as he discovers that this amazing article was also by his favorite anonymous magazine writer. He thinks, "You know, I was going to keep this skyjacking to myself since it's a very recent crime that will definitely get me thrown into prison for life. But the heck with it. Someone who writes two articles that I like would never turn me in! This is the guy I will tell my story to! He'll understand me and would never betray me."

So this is what he does. He writes a letter that reveals that the anonymous magazine writer has CHANGED HIS WHOLE LIFE, and includes, as the longest paragraph of that letter, a correctly-spelled career retrospective of that writer. Because he knows that if you compliment people they never turn you in for federal crimes. 

For good measure, he also sends the letter to two other people, just because the world is a trustworthy place and they would never betray him either. Nevermind the whole reason he sent it to Gunther is because of these LIFE-CHANGING ARTICLES. The other guys would probably have changed his life too if they'd ever had the chance. The important thing, if you're a wanted criminal, is to trust everyone and tell your story every chance you get.

Also, Cooper is shrewd. Somehow he knows to send his other letters only to people Gunther knows, and somehow he also knows that they'll die before anyone ever asks them about the letters. And he knows that after they die, those letters will never be found.

Most good reporters, when handed a blockbuster exclusive about a high-profile crime, never tell anyone about it or do anything about it. What's a career when there are turkey sandwiches to eat and crossword puzzles to do.

Then years go by and Cooper's story is related to this trustworthy anonymous magazine writer. And wouldn't you know it. Of all the Coopers in all the gin joints in all the towns in all the world, this Cooper turns out not just to have lived in all the places the magazine writer lived, but shared multiple biographical details with that magazine writer. It's fate!! Kismet!! A match made in a doctor's office waiting room. Even the typo in the letter matches the author's wife's name. Insane!! 

Then, after the story is over--a story that bears no mention of any kind of "accomplice" or "two-man operation" or friend or anything--someone finds a picture of a completely different person at the place our Cooper worked, and figures out what must have happened. It was TWO PEOPLE. Obviously! This is not some guy in the world who looks, as an old man, how the sketched Cooper might be imagined to look. This is obviously THE ACTUAL COOPER, which was apparently a different person than the one who wrote the letters or called the author, and even though this new guy's story doesn't match the biography of the version of Cooper in the book--the one that matches the author's own life details--the only logical conclusion is that the new guy is really Cooper and the whole thing was an elaborate ruse to tell...wait a minute. To tell a whole different story than the real one? But wasn't the whole point supposed to be to get the "real" story out there through an anonymous magazine author that the hijacker trusted and connected with? Nevermind, the point is, LOOK AT THAT PICTURE OF THE NICE OLD MAN IN THE SWEATER. If that's not Cooper, I don't know who is.

Or the whole thing could have been the exact thing it looks like, which is fiction written by Gunther. But what are the chances of that??

 

Maybe Gunther was contacted by Cooper's girlfriend, and maybe Moses parted the seas too, after all !  The times we live in make it all possible. Maybe the dna pulled off the stamp by experts belongs to Ooana and Charlie Chaplin ? Only tyme will tell.    

Edited January 22 by georger

[Cola 26]

23 hours ago, CooperNWO305 said:

Your height estimate. What is it in shoes and barefeet?

For me I anticipate Cooper to fall within a reported/recorded range of 5'11 to 6'1.

My take from working through the height is that witnesses whom observed him standing were conveying an overall impression that Cooper was tall.

To me heights in excess of 5'11 is where I begin to separate average height - from tall.

I'll listen to anyone's candidate once, but for me under 5'11 or over 6'1 are culling points.

 

 

 

[Andrade1812 51]

No one wants to talk about Tom's plan to send his vacuum filters from the tie to a metagenomics lab?

[georger 197]

1 hour ago, Andrade1812 said:

No one wants to talk about Tom's plan to send his vacuum filters from the tie to a metagenomics lab?

Only Tom knows about it ?  What plan consisting of what ? His first attempt failed ?

Edited January 26 by georger

[Math of Insects 96]

2 hours ago, georger said:

Only Tom knows about it ?  What plan consisting of what ? His first attempt failed ?

Allow me to answer this with a parable. In the book "Bunk," there is an anecdote that apparently some snake-oil salesmen's pitches were so good that even people who knew the product was bogus, would buy it anyway, because they felt so personally connected by then to the guy doing the pitch. They knew they were handing over money for something literally worthless--often money they could ill-afford to spend--but they became so invested in the pitch that it felt rewarding somehow to help prop it up.

Let's leave it at that. 

[JAGdb 71]

7 hours ago, Andrade1812 said:

No one wants to talk about Tom's plan to send his vacuum filters from the tie to a metagenomics lab?

Are the details of it anywhere ?  It seems as though the Citizen Sleuth web site has been sealed in time circa 2017, never to be updated again. 

I hope I am not mixing things up but I thought I saw something about it on one of Olemiss's recent DB Cooper Sleuth youtube videos, (which I am enjoying).   

So is this just a more exhaustive DNA scrub? 

Eric is involved or is this all Tom Kaye ?

For the vacuum filter samples, is it identified from where on the tie they came from ?

It's definitely worth the effort.  When the results come back, I imagine there will be numerous DNA profiles as a result of years of contamination.  How will they be able to isolate Cooper's DNA from non Cooper DNA ?  (The last time they did a DNA test, it came back that Tom was the hijacker !) 

Edited January 26 by JAGdb

[Cola 26]

11 hours ago, Andrade1812 said:

No one wants to talk about Tom's plan to send his vacuum filters from the tie to a metagenomics lab?

 

Is this still at the idea stage or is Tom formulating a plan?

 

[Cola 26]

7 hours ago, Math of Insects said:

Let's leave it at that. 

DNA is seductive!

I do trust Tom though he "does science and not suspects."

Personally Tom's as much of an influence for me being here as Ckret.

Edited January 26 by Cola

[Math of Insects 96]

1 hour ago, Cola said:

DNA is seductive!

I do trust Tom though he "does science and not suspects."

Personally Tom's as much of an influence for me being here as Ckret.

Does he tho?

[Cola 26]

19 minutes ago, Math of Insects said:

Does he tho?

Hey MOT the hoople -  have you already forgotten - Money's not a fish!

Tom ran that snake oil sales man out of town...

[DanCooperHimself 9]

DNA AND LOSER UNCLE CHARLIE
 

I imagine the scene! All the Cooper sleuths eagerly awaiting the latest set of DNA results with bated breath. It will be an average enough day in our mundane world. Quiet, civilised, with certain sections sniggering at the fact so many are awaiting the identity of the elusive hijacker of Northwest Orient Flight 305 that 99.999999% of the populace, including passengers and crew forgot about by November 24, 1972. 
 

To me, Cooper was “loser Uncle Charlie” who had nobody who loved him, no family, no prospects. This guy didn’t/doesn’t have a Jo, Marla, Greg, Ron, or posthumous advocate. 
 

Just that weird and borderline creepy Uncle your Mom felt obliged to invite to family occasions and people argued not to be sat next to him at the dinner table. I mean, most loving family men spend thanksgiving with their families - not ditch them for a score. If he was a family man, why not Nov 25, 1971 after a “last meal” with his nearest? Here’s why - he didn’t have anybody who gave the first, fifth, or final f**k about him. 
 

When Cooper threw open the tiny canopy with a 25lb weight under him, he saw a black flickering mass below - Lake Merwin or the Columbia. The rig didn’t have Capewells on it so when he plunged into the drink, he’s in a nylon jail cell that ge can’t get out of with a 21lb Looney Tunes Money Bag weighing him down. Cooper became fish food. 
 

Then loser Uncle Charlie is lost to history. He had nobody to report him gone, nothing was found because it all sank with him including the bomb/“bomb”, then somehow cash washes up on Richard Fazio’s beach. Loser Uncle Charlie was a vagabond who may have worked in different places, plants, airports, dropzones, wherever. Even if one of his WW2 buddies reported him missing - what foul play was there for the Feds/Cops to look into it?

Im very much in the Dead Camp when it comes to Cooper. Hes strangely evaded the “missing presumed dead” title. For me - anyone alive after Nov 24, 1971 is a non-starter. Maybe a new perspective - but if he had a family who loved/cared for him at that time - also a red stroke out. 
 

Here’s a list of people the new DNA Analysis could match from the tie and the parachutes.

1) EJ Cossey

2) The Reno National Guard Captain who examined the rigs/packing cards

3) Any agent from the Vegas FBI field office

4) The lab people in Quantico

5) The innumerable postal workers/FBI agents who handed the tie etc when it was sent in the regular mail and passed around like a cheap whore for 20/30+ years

6) Larry Carr

7) Anyone in the Seattle/Portland field offices

8) Tom Kaye

9) Museum staff when the tie was displayed in an FBI exhibit

10) Loser Uncle Charlie who nobody knew, didn’t have a death certificate, was a “pack of smokes Daddy”, and wasn’t a Braden badass or a Trans Icon like Barb. Just a loser glorified aerial kidnapper who drowned with a bag of cash and in inescapable rig on a cold November night.

I bet the Reca and McCoy people will still think it was Reca and McCoy though…

[georger 197]

7 hours ago, DanCooperHimself said:

DNA AND LOSER UNCLE CHARLIE
 

I imagine the scene! All the Cooper sleuths eagerly awaiting the latest set of DNA results with bated breath. It will be an average enough day in our mundane world. Quiet, civilised, with certain sections sniggering at the fact so many are awaiting the identity of the elusive hijacker of Northwest Orient Flight 305 that 99.999999% of the populace, including passengers and crew forgot about by November 24, 1972. 
 

To me, Cooper was “loser Uncle Charlie” who had nobody who loved him, no family, no prospects. This guy didn’t/doesn’t have a Jo, Marla, Greg, Ron, or posthumous advocate. 
 

Just that weird and borderline creepy Uncle your Mom felt obliged to invite to family occasions and people argued not to be sat next to him at the dinner table. I mean, most loving family men spend thanksgiving with their families - not ditch them for a score. If he was a family man, why not Nov 25, 1971 after a “last meal” with his nearest? Here’s why - he didn’t have anybody who gave the first, fifth, or final f**k about him. 
 

When Cooper threw open the tiny canopy with a 25lb weight under him, he saw a black flickering mass below - Lake Merwin or the Columbia. The rig didn’t have Capewells on it so when he plunged into the drink, he’s in a nylon jail cell that ge can’t get out of with a 21lb Looney Tunes Money Bag weighing him down. Cooper became fish food. 
 

Then loser Uncle Charlie is lost to history. He had nobody to report him gone, nothing was found because it all sank with him including the bomb/“bomb”, then somehow cash washes up on Richard Fazio’s beach. Loser Uncle Charlie was a vagabond who may have worked in different places, plants, airports, dropzones, wherever. Even if one of his WW2 buddies reported him missing - what foul play was there for the Feds/Cops to look into it?

Im very much in the Dead Camp when it comes to Cooper. Hes strangely evaded the “missing presumed dead” title. For me - anyone alive after Nov 24, 1971 is a non-starter. Maybe a new perspective - but if he had a family who loved/cared for him at that time - also a red stroke out. 
 

Here’s a list of people the new DNA Analysis could match from the tie and the parachutes.

1) EJ Cossey

2) The Reno National Guard Captain who examined the rigs/packing cards

3) Any agent from the Vegas FBI field office

4) The lab people in Quantico

5) The innumerable postal workers/FBI agents who handed the tie etc when it was sent in the regular mail and passed around like a cheap whore for 20/30+ years

6) Larry Carr

7) Anyone in the Seattle/Portland field offices

8) Tom Kaye

9) Museum staff when the tie was displayed in an FBI exhibit

10) Loser Uncle Charlie who nobody knew, didn’t have a death certificate, was a “pack of smokes Daddy”, and wasn’t a Braden badass or a Trans Icon like Barb. Just a loser glorified aerial kidnapper who drowned with a bag of cash and in inescapable rig on a cold November night.

I bet the Reca and McCoy people will still think it was Reca and McCoy though…

Cute....

[ParrotheadVol 70]

On 1/25/2024 at 10:15 PM, Andrade1812 said:

No one wants to talk about Tom's plan to send his vacuum filters from the tie to a metagenomics lab?

I'm not optimistic that he finds someone to do this for publicity while eating the cost. If he does, then I'm still not optimistic that it leads to anything. Admittedly, I'm not the most knowledgeable when it comes to how this DNA stuff works, so maybe there is cause to be optimistic. 

Anyway, at this stage of the game, there's nothing to lose by trying it.

[ParrotheadVol 70]

On 1/26/2024 at 5:45 AM, JAGdb said:

Eric is involved or is this all Tom Kaye ?

Eric is involved, but not just Eric. Tom will give the sample to whomever can get a lab willing to do the testing he wants.

I think his hope however, is that Eric could bring some publicity to the lab and therefore the lab may be willing to eat the cost of the testing, which isn't cheap. 

 

Tom's post on the FB group:

THE DNA SAMPLE EXPLAINED

 

So there is a lot of confusion and speculation about what is going on with the DNA. First off, I am not doing this exclusively with Eric, I also offered the same deal to Pat if they could come up with a lab that would provide at least 5 DNA sequences. I have MULTIPLE samples that could include Cooper's DNA. I have all the stubs that you already know about, I have 11 sterile filter canisters that were used with the vacuum. One of these was used in the Peterson documentary that ended up with my DNA. There is also the paper bag from the vac when we forgot to initially put the filter in a canister. I also have some scotch tape that lifted stuff off the tie.

 

All the "forensics labs" you are aware of are in my opinion a huge waste of time. By their own admission they can only reliably get one MAYBE two sequences off a sample. This is useless in our situation. What you are not aware of is that forensics labs are not state-of-the-art in DNA analysis. That status belongs to Ancient DNA Labs where the only DNA they have has been deteriorating for thousands of years and is completely contaminated with every other living thing in the area.

 

Ancient DNA Labs use a process called Metagenomics. --Metagenomics is the study of the structure and function of entire nucleotide sequences isolated and analyzed from all the organisms (typically microbes) in a bulk sample-- Now let's think about that for a second... this means that you can throw dirt in this machine, it will replicate ALL the DNA in the dirt and then reconstruct ALL the different organisms DNA from that sample.

 

How does it achieve this miracle when forensic labs can't? Think of a book full of words and sentences. Except instead of pages, all the sentences in this "book" are in a single long paper tape one sentence tall. Now imagine you have hundreds of these tapes of the same book and you chew them up into chunks of tape maybe 5-20 words long. If you have the TIME AND MONEY you could have someone sit down and sort through all the chunks and find ones that match like this:

 

brown fox jumped over (DNA frag 1)

 

The quick brown fox (DNA frag 2)

 

jumped over the lazy dogs (DNA frag 3)

 

dogs back. (DNA frag 4)

 

The quick brown fox jumped over the lazy dogs back. (fully reconstructed DNA)

 

So you can see how this is possible but it is VERY hard and VERY COSTLY. Every mastodon bone ever recovered is a poster child for contamination and completely degraded DNA. Yet these labs have been able to sequence DNA to the level they can tell different mastodon species apart. I have asked one of the best labs in the USA about doing Cooper's DNA and they said they only do human stuff if law enforcement asks for it AND it costs about 50k per run. What is new as of this week is that there are dozens of DNA labs around the world that would also probably be able to do this. They might not have the same stigma about not doing humans (hopefully). Then there is the problem of the cost. Que Eric Ulis, if he can generate enough publicity and make Cooper's DNA sizzle in the eyes of the public, then one of these labs may just do it for the public accolades!! So you see there is method in the madness.

 

Finally how do I know so much about this? Because I was involved in a huge controversy over preservation of proteins (not DNA but similar) in dinosaur bones. This was the type of finding that would set science on its ear since those types of molecules were not supposed to last 65 million years. My team was on the side of modern contamination, the other side claimed that the dino bone locked out any contamination so the proteins had to be original dinosaur. Long story short, a student biologist on THEIR team contacted me not understanding the politics and was ousted unceremoniously when his findings hinted my team was correct.

 

That student came into my team and suggested we take a chunk of dino bone (from the middle away from any surface) from the same geographic area and do a Metagenomics run on it. The resulting DNA pie chart showed that the middle of the dino bone was contaminated with DNA from every animal that lived on the surface of the ground in that area! This was supposed to put the protein thing to bed but politics has made it linger on. That “student” remains my good friend and is now the lead scientist for a group bringing back the passenger pigeon as well as other animals. He has been advising me on this for years.

 

So if we want to get real Cooper DNA with the samples we have, Metagenomics is the only hope as far as I am concerned. If we get 100 profiles it will be easier to find him than if we get 10. Think about it, Cooper’s tie will have his DNA, his wife’s, his kids etc. I can do a family tree like I did with the particles (the software I used was actually for DNA family trees) and if a cluster shows up all closely related, we have our man!

 

Your friendly neighborhood scientist,

Tom Kaye