DB Cooper

[JAGdb 71]

1 hour ago, olemisscub said:

This is my doing. I really don't understand the FBI sometimes. I FOIA'd for those photos a few months ago, asking for high resolution scans of them. Now they show up totally out of place at the start of the Vault drop. So the FBI I guess thinks that putting those in there is going to placate me. No, this doesn't placate me, FBI. I asked for HIGH. RESOLUTION. SCANS. for a reason. 

And for what it's worth, Al Cooper was bald in those photos. That hair was lifted from the sketch and placed on his head. Also, he had a beard in the original mugshot too, which they removed in most of those. 

I currently have a FOIA going on with the Albuquerque PD for that photo. I figured I'd just go through them and it'd be faster. But that was a few months ago. Every few weeks they respond and say they'll be getting to me soon. So that's better than nothing I guess. 

Seems like they just do as little as possible, or the minimum required to show compliance with the letter of the law.   They don't really want to give what people are asking. Maybe it's just a resource issue, but it feels like it is a little more than that.  Maybe they just don't want sleuths figuring this out or perhaps they are working on it in the background. 

 

[olemisscub 466]

11 minutes ago, JAGdb said:

Seems like they just do as little as possible, or the minimum required to show compliance with the letter of the law.   They don't really want to give what people are asking. Maybe it's just a resource issue, but it feels like it is a little more than that.  Maybe they just don't want sleuths figuring this out or perhaps they are working on it in the background. 

 

I'm not sure what it is, but one thing I'm getting increasingly pissed off about is the redactions. Take this one for example. Why would the estimated age of a STRANGER be redacted??

[Cola 26]

14 hours ago, ParrotheadVol said:

That makes me wonder if that may have sparked the talk within their family that Uncle LD could be Uncle DB. 

Hey now, that is quite a profound notion on the family's origin story/association of LD as DB.

Being approached by the Agency is the kind of drama for that time that is too good for a family to not talk about in the open. Maybe it was openly discussed with whispers or with high emotions in front of an impressionable Marla.

If the statement is accurate it indicates that LD and DB are not even remotely of the same temperament or composure.

LD's been out of the running for a while, but I think this statement ends all further discussion on LD as DB.

Edited February 2 by Cola

[olemisscub 466]

40 minutes ago, Cola said:

 

LD's been out of the running for a while, but I think this statement ends all further discussion on LD as DB.

This document actually makes him a better suspect in my eyes. I have a hard (almost impossible) time taking any suspect seriously who doesn't have some sort of aviation experience, but he's otherwise a really good template for the type of individual who I'm thinking Cooper may have been. This guy clearly had mental issues and was in and out of psych wards, had a brother who worked for Boeing, was a total failure in life, had just experienced a major trauma with his wife committing suicide, and he fits the physical profile remarkably well. Recall that Tina said he was the closest match to Cooper she'd ever seen. And heck, that document shows that he had no problem using his real last name as part of an alias. 

But like I said, absent some aviation knowledge/experience, you aren't Cooper. 

[georger 197]

Carr makes a  point which is actually a challenge. Carr cites the massive investigation which failed to turn up Cooper. Carr says that means Cooper probably died in the jump ? He was no longer living to be found!

It could also mean Cooper was a marginalised person living on the margins of society and not easy to find. Or, "the place you would like" is outside the search zone of the FBI ?

Cooper asked for $200k which was significant but also modest by other standards. Cooper is 45-50 years of age so he has already lived the productive period of his life - he doesnt have much time left to produce and make money.  He doesnt really need much more than $200k to live out the rest of his life, by 1971 standards. Especially if he is sick and already living in a marginalised state. His expectations by be small.

He makes several comments to Tina that reference past experiences, travel, and modest expectations vs large future plans. He offers up part of the money! Part of his money is later found at Tena Bar! Is that part of a pattern? How much money did it take to survive in Mexico for 20-40 more years in 1971 ? The average age for a  healthy male in 1971 was around 77 years.

The massive investigation Carr cites may mean something, but not what Larry thinks it does ?

 

Edited February 2 by georger

[Cola 26]

2 hours ago, olemisscub said:

This document actually makes him a better suspect in my eyes. I have a hard (almost impossible) time taking any suspect seriously who doesn't have some sort of aviation experience, but he's otherwise a really good template for the type of individual who I'm thinking Cooper may have been. This guy clearly had mental issues and was in and out of psych wards, had a brother who worked for Boeing, was a total failure in life, had just experienced a major trauma with his wife committing suicide, and he fits the physical profile remarkably well. Recall that Tina said he was the closest match to Cooper she'd ever seen. And heck, that document shows that he had no problem using his real last name as part of an alias. 

But like I said, absent some aviation knowledge/experience, you aren't Cooper. 

 

Agreed, the document highlights a volatility in LD's life and mental state. No question this document supports LD being a more compelling "skyjacker" suspect overall.

However, this document offers enough of a character evaluation of LD for me to emphatically say, in this instance LD was not Dan Cooper.

This document actually works to eliminate LD as a good DB suspect on the basis of his mental state.

“Nervous disorder, cannot hold down a job, despondent” 

Wwith this document's characterization of LD, I think its safe to assume that under a NORJACK level of pressure LD would have flailed in some measure. He would have been expected to have had some erratic outburst in the 5 hours there.  Coops didn't even drop an F-bomb, he never become nasty of hostile or mentally spent up.

If I had to select a parallel, I'd expect LD's mental condition to flair under pressure producing results similar to  - Cini.

This document does not give me a high degree of confidence in LD having the temperament, composure or self-control to keep it all together like our boy DB. I'm not buying that LD would have been calm, cool and collected for 5 hours.

This document indicates LD's not Coops

Just my opinion...

Edited February 2 by Cola

[georger 197]

1 hour ago, Cola said:

 

Agreed, the document highlights a volatility in LD's life and mental state. No question this document supports LD being a more compelling "skyjacker" suspect overall.

However, this document offers enough of a character evaluation of LD for me to emphatically say, in this instance LD was not Dan Cooper.

This document actually works to eliminate LD as a good DB suspect on the basis of his mental state.

“Nervous disorder, cannot hold down a job, despondent” 

Wwith this document's characterization of LD, I think its safe to assume that under a NORJACK level of pressure LD would have flailed in some measure. He would have been expected to have had some erratic outburst in the 5 hours there.  Coops didn't even drop an F-bomb, he never become nasty of hostile or mentally spent up.

If I had to select a parallel, I'd expect LD's mental condition to flair under pressure producing results similar to  - Cini.

This document does not give me a high degree of confidence in LD having the temperament, composure or self-control to keep it all together like our boy DB. I'm not buying that LD would have been calm, cool and collected for 5 hours.

This document indicates LD's not Coops

Just my opinion...

What was LD's motive/grudge?   Wet socks?  Needed $50 for car parts ?  Ran out of rubbers?

Edited February 2 by georger

[Math of Insects 96]

200K then was a million and a half dollars. That is moonshot money for someone. And he wouldn't have been able to spend it. (I agree with Larry.)

[olemisscub 466]

3 hours ago, georger said:

What was LD's motive/grudge?   Wet socks?  Needed $50 for car parts ?  Ran out of rubbers?

Do bank robbers need specific motives other than the prospect of quick enrichment? 

[georger 197]

8 hours ago, olemisscub said:

Do bank robbers need specific motives other than the prospect of quick enrichment? 

So why didnt Cooper just rob a bank ?

[JAGdb 71]

Does the board think that the hijacker was a career type criminal ?  Or was he more in the desperate man category, had some type of life circumstance that compelled him to this one singular crime ?

I'm not sure, I lean towards the desperate man scenario.  

In either profile, was the Paul Cini attempt the inspiration? What are the odds that two people were planning this type of crime at the same time in such close proximity ? By the same toke, could someone mobilize a plan so quickly, after getting the inspiration ?

 

 

 

[olemisscub 466]

7 hours ago, georger said:

So why didnt Cooper just rob a bank ?

Bank robberies don’t get nearly that amount of money. Bank robbers have to be very quick about it. They can usually only get what the tellers have. $200k in 71 was 1.4 million today. You’d never get that by running into a bank. 

For reference, McNally told me that he had been casing a Brinks truck route in Detroit at the time of the Cooper hijacking. When he saw the amount of money Cooper got then he shifted his focus to a hijacking.   

[olemisscub 466]

4 hours ago, JAGdb said:

Does the board think that the hijacker was a career type criminal ?  Or was he more in the desperate man category, had some type of life circumstance that compelled him to this one singular crime ?

I'm not sure, I lean towards the desperate man scenario.  

In either profile, was the Paul Cini attempt the inspiration? What are the odds that two people were planning this type of crime at the same time in such close proximity ? By the same toke, could someone mobilize a plan so quickly, after getting the inspiration ?

 

I’m not sure if he was a “career criminal” but I wouldn’t be surprised if he was a prior felon. Definitely don’t think this was a singular crime. All of the hijackers of that era who weren’t suffering major mental trauma or battling mental illness of some sort were small time hoods like McNally or Melvin Fisher. 

As for Cini being the inspiration…hell yes. 100% in my mind. It seems highly, highly improbable that two guys would simultaneously be developing this totally novel idea. I imagine Cooper saw the Cini story and a light bulb went off in his head. He had some sort of prior knowledge or experience with a 727 and everything clicked for him. 

[georger 197]

1 hour ago, olemisscub said:

I’m not sure if he was a “career criminal” but I wouldn’t be surprised if he was a prior felon. Definitely don’t think this was a singular crime. All of the hijackers of that era who weren’t suffering major mental trauma or battling mental illness of some sort were small time hoods like McNally or Melvin Fisher. 

As for Cini being the inspiration…hell yes. 100% in my mind. It seems highly, highly improbable that two guys would simultaneously be developing this totally novel idea. I imagine Cooper saw the Cini story and a light bulb went off in his head. He had some sort of prior knowledge or experience with a 727 and everything clicked for him. 

What of the 'grudge' Cooper mentioned ? That is social-political.  Maybe just idle talk to pass the time ?  Not going to take the plane to Cuba. Knows the geography of Seattle-Portland, McChord AFB and ground travel times ... ?  Gives the pilot flap settings! .....

Builds a bomb that he says could blow up the whole plane and kill everyone including himself! That alone is several stages beyond mere robbery ?  A dead guy cant spend his gains ?

Edited February 3 by georger

[Chaucer 103]

Damn, this place cleans up nice. 

That rotten stench is gone. Guess I'll hand around a bit.

[Coopericane 44]

If L. D. Cooper was investigated back in 71, why does he have the very last subject file? Was he simply not considered worthy of one at the time?

[dudeman17 270]

16 hours ago, JAGdb said:

Does the board think that the hijacker was a career type criminal ?  Or was he more in the desperate man category, had some type of life circumstance that compelled him to this one singular crime ?

I like to think he was a skydiver pulling an elaborate version of 'Hey, hold my beer a sec. In fact, I might be gone a couple days, can you feed my dog?' He was special forces in Vietnam, an experience that left him a bit... eccentric. He jumped El Cap in the 60's and nobody knew about it. He used the money to rent a house by the beach, chase girls, party like a rock star, and skydive his butt off. His main goal in life was to have more fun than anyone else on the planet, but be low-key about it. He liked the fact that very few people had the slightest idea who he was.

That's what I like to think. But I might be biased.

[Cola 26]

On 2/3/2024 at 1:44 PM, JAGdb said:

Does the board think that the hijacker was a career type criminal ? 

 

21 hours ago, georger said:

What of the 'grudge' Cooper mentioned ? That is social-political.  Maybe just idle talk to pass the time ?  Not going to take the plane to Cuba

 

The downside of loving psychoanalysis and esoteric symbology is that questions like these are so much fun but complete time sucks. I have been thinking on these for a few years, but it may take a few more days to find the time to get a reply where I want it.

I'll circle back on this question of what type of criminal was Cooper in a few days.

Just putting a placeholder down.

 

 

 

Edited February 4 by Cola

[olemisscub 466]

15 hours ago, Coopericane said:

If L. D. Cooper was investigated back in 71, why does he have the very last subject file? Was he simply not considered worthy of one at the time?

That’s correct. Not a strong enough lead at the time to warrant a subject file. 

[Chaucer 103]

So, this might be out of place considering the recent discussions, but in speaking with experts on the topics, it would seem that Tom and Eric's approach to the DNA - which is Ancestry DNA - will not result in a last name for Cooper. Rather, the hope is to catch all the DNA profiles found in Tom's MVAC and see if there are "clusters" of similar DNA which might result in a "Cooper profile". The problem with that approach is that you cannot use forensic genetic genealogy. Forensic genetic genealogy which entered the mainstream with the arrest of the Golden State Killer and has gone on to be used to solve dozens, if not hundreds, of cold cases, needs no more than TWO genetic profiles. It is impossible to proceed with genetic genealogy with three or more profiles. With Tom and Eric's effort, the best you can do is hope to isolate Cooper's profile and then test other samples against it to confirm or eliminate suspects. 

For us to give a name to Cooper using DNA, we must test material that gives us two or fewer profiles. The tie, obviously, is not that artifact. 

Perhaps, the best hope to identifying Cooper is testing material which we KNOW was touched only by Cooper or is only from Cooper. I can think of only two: the shroud lines from the cut-up chute and the missing hair slide. 

[georger 197]

3 hours ago, Chaucer said:

So, this might be out of place considering the recent discussions, but in speaking with experts on the topics, it would seem that Tom and Eric's approach to the DNA - which is Ancestry DNA - will not result in a last name for Cooper. Rather, the hope is to catch all the DNA profiles found in Tom's MVAC and see if there are "clusters" of similar DNA which might result in a "Cooper profile". The problem with that approach is that you cannot use forensic genetic genealogy. Forensic genetic genealogy which entered the mainstream with the arrest of the Golden State Killer and has gone on to be used to solve dozens, if not hundreds, of cold cases, needs no more than TWO genetic profiles. It is impossible to proceed with genetic genealogy with three or more profiles. With Tom and Eric's effort, the best you can do is hope to isolate Cooper's profile and then test other samples against it to confirm or eliminate suspects. 

For us to give a name to Cooper using DNA, we must test material that gives us two or fewer profiles. The tie, obviously, is not that artifact. 

Perhaps, the best hope to identifying Cooper is testing material which we KNOW was touched only by Cooper or is only from Cooper. I can think of only two: the shroud lines from the cut-up chute and the missing hair slide. 

Good luck!  Do you know if there is a root on that slide hair? I believe there isn't ?

Edited February 5 by georger

[Chaucer 103]

10 hours ago, georger said:

Good luck!  Do you know if there is a root on that slide hair? I believe there isn't ?

Great question, and I don't think anyone has an answer. Still, rootless hairs can now be used for mitochondrial DNA. In speaking with a geneticist, they said the hairs are the best option - of course that's the one that we don't even know where they are or even if they still exist...

[Cola 26]

15 hours ago, Chaucer said:

I can think of only two: the shroud lines from the cut-up chute and the missing hair slide. 

 

15 hours ago, Chaucer said:

Tom's MVAC and see if there are "clusters" of similar DNA which might result in a "Cooper profile". The problem with that approach is that you cannot use forensic genetic genealogy. Forensic genetic genealogy

 

I would not strike through T&Es DNA method as useless at this stage, if anything this approach will only become more effective with time if not presently effective enough.

 

Whatever happened of the cup from the rubbish-bin?

My guess is that it was not even retained as evidence to begin with. Anyone ever see an evidence bag on the cup or memo of it being examined by the Indent division or being destroyed?

I think the claim in Tosaw's book was that only the stews fingerprints were pulled form the cups/bottles.

Wildcard -imagination on DNA source would be any original sticky lift material used on the 8 cigarette butts. We can always hope that stuffed away in some storage facility is a 52 year old Indent card with lift tape from the butts. Stranger things can happen.

[Chaucer 103]

I guess I'm thinking more immediately. It is certainly possible that technology will advance enough to distinguish multiple SNP profiles in order to do FGG. However, any material used by Tom and Eric would be destroyed and unavailable for further analysis. So, I'm not dismissing their efforts, just pointing out that as of right now, it will not give us DB Cooper's identity. 

[dudeman17 270]

On 2/4/2024 at 4:41 PM, Chaucer said:

Perhaps, the best hope to identifying Cooper is testing material which we KNOW was touched only by Cooper or is only from Cooper. I can think of only two: the shroud lines from the cut-up chute...

Hasn't that canopy and lines been handled by a number of people?