DB Cooper

[Cola 26]

3 hours ago, ParrotheadVol said:

it costs about 50k per run.

 

Could someone on FB inquire with Tom as to what would be the expectation on a single run. What is being bought for 50K?  

If the expectation is compelling enough, I think 50K is within the reach of the Vortex community/public to crowdfund- GoFundme.

Maybe this may be worth crowdfunding regardless of expectations. If Tom had a good size purse possibly it would aid him in making serious inquires with a number of Labs and locate that Goldilocks "Sleuth Lab" that's eager to share in the glory.  

There are a few qualifiers/stipulations I'd personally like to see in place before making a contribution, but these are not worth covering this early.     

[georger 197]

5 hours ago, ParrotheadVol said:

Eric is involved, but not just Eric. Tom will give the sample to whomever can get a lab willing to do the testing he wants.

I think his hope however, is that Eric could bring some publicity to the lab and therefore the lab may be willing to eat the cost of the testing, which isn't cheap. 

 

Tom's post on the FB group:

THE DNA SAMPLE EXPLAINED

 

So there is a lot of confusion and speculation about what is going on with the DNA. First off, I am not doing this exclusively with Eric, I also offered the same deal to Pat if they could come up with a lab that would provide at least 5 DNA sequences. I have MULTIPLE samples that could include Cooper's DNA. I have all the stubs that you already know about, I have 11 sterile filter canisters that were used with the vacuum. One of these was used in the Peterson documentary that ended up with my DNA. There is also the paper bag from the vac when we forgot to initially put the filter in a canister. I also have some scotch tape that lifted stuff off the tie.

 

All the "forensics labs" you are aware of are in my opinion a huge waste of time. By their own admission they can only reliably get one MAYBE two sequences off a sample. This is useless in our situation. What you are not aware of is that forensics labs are not state-of-the-art in DNA analysis. That status belongs to Ancient DNA Labs where the only DNA they have has been deteriorating for thousands of years and is completely contaminated with every other living thing in the area.

 

Ancient DNA Labs use a process called Metagenomics. --Metagenomics is the study of the structure and function of entire nucleotide sequences isolated and analyzed from all the organisms (typically microbes) in a bulk sample-- Now let's think about that for a second... this means that you can throw dirt in this machine, it will replicate ALL the DNA in the dirt and then reconstruct ALL the different organisms DNA from that sample.

 

How does it achieve this miracle when forensic labs can't? Think of a book full of words and sentences. Except instead of pages, all the sentences in this "book" are in a single long paper tape one sentence tall. Now imagine you have hundreds of these tapes of the same book and you chew them up into chunks of tape maybe 5-20 words long. If you have the TIME AND MONEY you could have someone sit down and sort through all the chunks and find ones that match like this:

 

brown fox jumped over (DNA frag 1)

 

The quick brown fox (DNA frag 2)

 

jumped over the lazy dogs (DNA frag 3)

 

dogs back. (DNA frag 4)

 

The quick brown fox jumped over the lazy dogs back. (fully reconstructed DNA)

 

So you can see how this is possible but it is VERY hard and VERY COSTLY. Every mastodon bone ever recovered is a poster child for contamination and completely degraded DNA. Yet these labs have been able to sequence DNA to the level they can tell different mastodon species apart. I have asked one of the best labs in the USA about doing Cooper's DNA and they said they only do human stuff if law enforcement asks for it AND it costs about 50k per run. What is new as of this week is that there are dozens of DNA labs around the world that would also probably be able to do this. They might not have the same stigma about not doing humans (hopefully). Then there is the problem of the cost. Que Eric Ulis, if he can generate enough publicity and make Cooper's DNA sizzle in the eyes of the public, then one of these labs may just do it for the public accolades!! So you see there is method in the madness.

 

Finally how do I know so much about this? Because I was involved in a huge controversy over preservation of proteins (not DNA but similar) in dinosaur bones. This was the type of finding that would set science on its ear since those types of molecules were not supposed to last 65 million years. My team was on the side of modern contamination, the other side claimed that the dino bone locked out any contamination so the proteins had to be original dinosaur. Long story short, a student biologist on THEIR team contacted me not understanding the politics and was ousted unceremoniously when his findings hinted my team was correct.

 

That student came into my team and suggested we take a chunk of dino bone (from the middle away from any surface) from the same geographic area and do a Metagenomics run on it. The resulting DNA pie chart showed that the middle of the dino bone was contaminated with DNA from every animal that lived on the surface of the ground in that area! This was supposed to put the protein thing to bed but politics has made it linger on. That “student” remains my good friend and is now the lead scientist for a group bringing back the passenger pigeon as well as other animals. He has been advising me on this for years.

 

So if we want to get real Cooper DNA with the samples we have, Metagenomics is the only hope as far as I am concerned. If we get 100 profiles it will be easier to find him than if we get 10. Think about it, Cooper’s tie will have his DNA, his wife’s, his kids etc. I can do a family tree like I did with the particles (the software I used was actually for DNA family trees) and if a cluster shows up all closely related, we have our man!

 

Your friendly neighborhood scientist,

Tom Kaye

Compare genetic work done in the Ötzi case with what has been done in the Cooper case !  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ötzi

So far as I know, the FBI has still not shared anything it has with the public. That includes evidence it may have and testing results it has.

We are left to read posts about dinosaur dna contamination debates ?  The Ötzi case is far more interesting, while the Cooper case hasn't offered up anything to have a debate much less a discussion about! The Cooper case is still wandering in the wilderness 50 years after the fact. There is literally nothing to even start a discussion about !!

Edited January 27 by georger

[Math of Insects 96]

I'm a nobody who knows nothing, but that FB post did not inspire confidence that people's excitement about this is warranted. If money is raised for this, I would consider that unethical. I think some of these elements have nudged toward the fraudulent, to be direct. 

[georger 197]

Just now, Math of Insects said:

I'm a nobody who knows nothing, but that FB post did not inspire confidence that people's excitement about this is warranted. If money is raised for this, I would consider that unethical. I think some of these elements have nudged toward the fraudulent, to be direct. 

A number of private labs want nothing to do with this - because: its the DB Cooper case and a social media nightmare - guaranteed! Maybe Cooperites could try card counting computer switches in their shoes - instead!

Meanwhile the rest of the real world goes on . . .

[olemisscub 466]

The tie is useless as far as I'm concerned. Far, far too contaminated over the years by various agents and others touching it. They shipped that thing in the regular US mail back and forth so many times to different FBI offices. 

The only two sources for legit DNA, at least in my opinion, are on the shroud lines and from the hair slide. The shroud lines on the cannibalized reserve canopy haven't been handled nearly as much over the past 50 years as the tie. When Cooper was cutting the shroud lines he no doubt had to grip the lines tight to be able to cut through them. He certainly would have left skin cells on there. 

I have a feeling that the hair slide is an "1A Miscellaneous Folder" in the Vegas office. Larry explained to me that FBI offices have these folders that are essentially for "lost and found" items of evidence. 

[georger 197]

1 hour ago, olemisscub said:

The tie is useless as far as I'm concerned. Far, far too contaminated over the years by various agents and others touching it. They shipped that thing in the regular US mail back and forth so many times to different FBI offices. 

The only two sources for legit DNA, at least in my opinion, are on the shroud lines and from the hair slide. The shroud lines on the cannibalized reserve canopy haven't been handled nearly as much over the past 50 years as the tie. When Cooper was cutting the shroud lines he no doubt had to grip the lines tight to be able to cut through them. He certainly would have left skin cells on there. 

I have a feeling that the hair slide is an "1A Miscellaneous Folder" in the Vegas office. Larry explained to me that FBI offices have these folders that are essentially for "lost and found" items of evidence. 

This is all relative. Some lab people would see this as a challenge-supreme. Multiple donors can be a challenge worth pursuing. It is a mistake for outsiders to prejudge anything in this case. Even a hair cemented in a slide with balsam (the old method) still presents a challenge which archeogeneticists would welcome. Lab people face more complex problems every day! 

The FBI Lab already produced some genetic data. Start there!

Or maybe this is impossible due to the people involved. That happens also.

Edited January 28 by georger

[georger 197]

11 hours ago, olemisscub said:

The tie is useless as far as I'm concerned. Far, far too contaminated over the years by various agents and others touching it. They shipped that thing in the regular US mail back and forth so many times to different FBI offices. 

The only two sources for legit DNA, at least in my opinion, are on the shroud lines and from the hair slide. The shroud lines on the cannibalized reserve canopy haven't been handled nearly as much over the past 50 years as the tie. When Cooper was cutting the shroud lines he no doubt had to grip the lines tight to be able to cut through them. He certainly would have left skin cells on there. 

I have a feeling that the hair slide is an "1A Miscellaneous Folder" in the Vegas office. Larry explained to me that FBI offices have these folders that are essentially for "lost and found" items of evidence. 

You people just astound me! Ive never encountered anything as screwed up as this in my life! I seriously doubt my brother at the crime lab in Madison-Appelton-Green Bay ever encountered anything as 'fcked' up as this in his whole career! 

There is something basically wrong with the forensics loop in this case. A massive passive-aggresive-avoidance syndrome or something ? They should have closed this fiasco clear back in December 1971 and saved everyone a headache!

 

Edited January 28 by georger

[JAGdb 71]

If Tom and EU can make the testing happen, why not ? Cast as many nets as possible...maybe the testing will yield a common or reoccurring sequence which could point to the hijacker.  Now if they could then test the shroud lines as Olemiss mentioned and match to that, we could have something. But the FBI just doesn't seem interested in having this solved, they closed it in 2016 and that's it as far as they are concerned.  So getting access to any evidence (the shroud lines or hair sample or their DNA results) died in 2016 or when Larry Carr retired. 

Tom's team did have access to the shroud lines, I believe they measured the length etc.  I wonder if they had the foresight to take swabs or sticky tape samples from where Cooper would have held the lines to make the cut ?  Not sure if anyone has ever asked him, I am guessing if they did he would have already said so.

But let's say the metagenomic results yield something like this, i.e. a heavy reoccurring sequence.  It won't actually say "my name is John Doe".  They would still somehow have to run it through one of the ancestry type databases right ?

 

[georger 197]

reoccurring sequence.  that is the goal .... or  at least a start. 

then something particular (or even a small unique combination of trait markers) within that reoccurring sequence to distinguish it from all others mathematically.

<edit> has anyone got a photo of that hair cemented between slides ?

 

 

Edited January 28 by georger

[Cola 26]

23 hours ago, Math of Insects said:

If money is raised for this, I would consider that unethical. I think some of these elements have nudged toward the fraudulent, to be direct. 

 

Math of Insects-I generally like your post and writing style but I think that was a little harsh of a suggestion.

I agree the Vortex has had and continues to have it's share of snake oils salesmen. However, this does not mean that crowdfunding or a GofundMe effort to run DNA off Tom's samples would be unethical, fraudulent or not worth attempting.

The case is dead in the water without the Citizen Sleuths organizing to push this forward.

I think what is better said is that there are stipulations as to who wold administer such a Crowdfunding.  Personally, if Tom set up a DNA- GoFundMe I’d kick in, but I’m equally comfortable with one of the Esquires administered such a thing.    

 

22 hours ago, olemisscub said:

The tie is useless as far as I'm concerned. Far, far too contaminated over the years by various agents and others touching it. They shipped that thing in the regular US mail back and forth so many times to different FBI offices. 

The only two sources for legit DNA, at least in my opinion, are on the shroud lines and from the hair slide.

Tom's samples are the ONLY external evidence currently available to the Vortex.

Outside of Tom’s samples there is NO expectation of access to any physical evidence that may contain DNA;  the Tie, the shroud lines, Hair sample if even locate-able are all held by the Agency.

Further the Tie has the greatest concentration of the unsub's DNA. Even with contamination its the best sample of text to paste snippets together for the reconstruction of a book. 

Let's be real here, at this point in time where the case stands, with the candidates we have, what is the likelihood the Agency will aid the citizen sleuths in bringing this case to conclusion?  Is it in the Agency's interest to provide access to anything with DNA on it…..??? you tell me...

Honestly,  I can’t even say that even a FOIA request will give us access to the DNA profiles in CODIS or that we could even obtain a copy of the 77+ non-ident fingerprints of this case.  

At this point, we are even cut off from the packing cards and parachute which are outside of the Agency. ( We should be making a public stink that this holdout is rather dubious.!!)

I do not think the Vortex will have any better chance in the next few years of obtaining a DNA profile than what Tom’s samples may or may not have.

I'm optimistic that the Citizen Sleuths can bring this case to a conclusion and Tom's samples are potentially our greatest hope in doing that.  I like to live thinking there is a bit of chaos to the world and that there are profound things that may come from Tom's  samples. 

Who knows..

Edited January 28 by Cola

[Math of Insects 96]

4 hours ago, Cola said:

The case is dead in the water

This may be more true than you intended. 

[dudeman17 270]

9 hours ago, Cola said:

Outside of Tom’s samples there is NO expectation of access to any physical evidence that may contain DNA;  the Tie, the shroud lines, Hair sample if even locate-able are all held by the Agency...

...what is the likelihood the Agency will aid the citizen sleuths in bringing this case to conclusion?  Is it in the Agency's interest to provide access to anything with DNA on it…..??? you tell me...

There are some interesting questions in there. Retired agent Larry Carr is in the vortex, right? Would he be able to help gain access to evidence? Or if, as some have suggested, there is is an 'inside job', CIA aspect to the case, and an agency coverup, he would be aware of that? If so, why is he in the vortex? Hmmm...

Edited January 29 by dudeman17

[Nicholas Broughton 53]

35 minutes ago, dudeman17 said:

There are some interesting questions in there. Retired agent Larry Carr is in the vortex, right? Would he be able to help gain access to evidence? Or if, as some have suggested, there is is an 'inside job', CIA aspect to the case, and an agency coverup, he would be aware of that? If so, why is he in the vortex? Hmmm...

Are you back at Elsinore?

[georger 197]

Have you people given any thought to what it is you are asking for when you ask the FBI to release it's genetic ___________________, whatever the blank is ? 

Let some wise and learned person fill in the blank ?  

Or, what would Tom want or require to make any headway with 'new' genetic testing saying from genetic materials on the tie ?  Has anyone given that any thought?

The hard questions come later! 

 

 

[Cola 26]

14 hours ago, Math of Insects said:

This may be more true than you intended. 

 

It tickles my senses the way you dissect a post, it leaves me with a suspicious feeling of your own intent.

You seem to know what it means to place a conflict before the audience, but I can’t help but think that you’re post of late are performing to the cheap seats.  

I prefer to tug at the threads of hope rather than ball them up.

 

Edited January 29 by Cola

[dudeman17 270]

9 hours ago, Nicholas Broughton said:

Are you back at Elsinore?

I was out there Saturday. It's been kind of sporadic for me. I haven't started doing tandems again yet (I will this spring, I swear, I swear!). I'm still doing AFF, but that's usually kind of slow in the winter, so I go out once in a while on Saturdays, depending on the weather and how busy the AFF is going to be.

-------

 

6 hours ago, georger said:

Have you people given any thought to what it is you are asking for when you ask the FBI to release it's genetic ___________________, whatever the blank is ? 

That's what I was doing, giving it some thought. If they just closed the case because it's old and unsolved and they have more current stuff to worry about, and they just don't want to be bothered, maybe Larry could help? But if they really don't want to be bothered, maybe Larry is just keeping an eye on you guys. Ha!

 

6 hours ago, georger said:

what would Tom want or require to make any headway with 'new' genetic testing

Sounds like he would require 50 grand or better.

[ParrotheadVol 70]

https://www.the-sun.com/news/10192516/db-cooper-case-not-closed-fbi-testing-tie-evidence/amp/?fbclid=IwAR1oDStBG4_Fj1WKMGDavPH2iJ1JY8DReVrHIl3BA288LA8rL3V0Y86VL9U

I usually take these "news" articles with a HUGE grain of salt, and I do this one as well. However, the comments from Carr are interesting (if they're actually from Carr):

Carr, while agreeing Ulis' theory could be plausible, said it's his understanding the Cooper file was never truly closed, despite the FBI's 2016 announcement.

He oversaw the case between 2007 and 2010 before he moved from Seattle to Washington for a promotion.

When he returned to Seattle in 2019, he was handed the reigns to the Cooper case once again despite it supposedly being closed three years prior.

"I don’t understand them calling it closed because I was assigned the case when I came back, it was more administratively closed rather than slammed shut," Carr explained.

Perhaps I slept through this part, but were we aware that Carr was re-assigned the case in 2019? Or is this just a bullshit article and Carr never said that? I'd have to listen again, but I don't recall any of that from the podcast he did with Darren.

 

Edited January 29 by ParrotheadVol

[olemisscub 466]

2 hours ago, ParrotheadVol said:

https://www.the-sun.com/news/10192516/db-cooper-case-not-closed-fbi-testing-tie-evidence/amp/?fbclid=IwAR1oDStBG4_Fj1WKMGDavPH2iJ1JY8DReVrHIl3BA288LA8rL3V0Y86VL9U

I usually take these "news" articles with a HUGE grain of salt, and I do this one as well. However, the comments from Carr are interesting (if they're actually from Carr):

Carr, while agreeing Ulis' theory could be plausible, said it's his understanding the Cooper file was never truly closed, despite the FBI's 2016 announcement.

He oversaw the case between 2007 and 2010 before he moved from Seattle to Washington for a promotion.

When he returned to Seattle in 2019, he was handed the reigns to the Cooper case once again despite it supposedly being closed three years prior.

"I don’t understand them calling it closed because I was assigned the case when I came back, it was more administratively closed rather than slammed shut," Carr explained.

Perhaps I slept through this part, but were we aware that Carr was re-assigned the case in 2019? Or is this just a bullshit article and Carr never said that? I'd have to listen again, but I don't recall any of that from the podcast he did with Darren.

 

I have worked with Larry extensively on the book. Larry was indeed “technically” reassigned to the case in the event that money, parachute, or a body showed up. He joked that he was like the “Agent Emeritus” for the Cooper case. It is true that the case file isn’t officially closed, but that’s just a paperwork technicality according to Larry.

[Math of Insects 96]

8 hours ago, Cola said:

 

It tickles my senses the way you dissect a post, it leaves me with a suspicious feeling of your own intent.

You seem to know what it means to place a conflict before the audience, but I can’t help but think that you’re post of late are performing to the cheap seats.  

I prefer to tug at the threads of hope rather than ball them up.

 

You are new here, correct?

It will be best to focus on the details of the case. The constant critiquing of people and their intentions is not the best element of this board. Hopefully you'll fall out on the side of discussion and analysis, not of internacine sniping.

Welcome and good luck going forward. 

[dudeman17 270]

6 hours ago, olemisscub said:

It is true that the case file isn’t officially closed, but that’s just a paperwork technicality according to Larry.

Is that so they can continue citing "ongoing investigation" as a reason for refusing to cooperate? Why would they do that?

The plot remains thick...

[olemisscub 466]

1 hour ago, dudeman17 said:

Is that so they can continue citing "ongoing investigation" as a reason for refusing to cooperate? Why would they do that?

The plot remains thick...

Nah they aren’t being clever like that.

My understanding from Larry is that it’s just a matter of them not turning the paperwork in yet. 

Edited January 30 by olemisscub

[Math of Insects 96]

44 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

Nah they aren’t being clever like that.

My understanding from Larry is that it’s just a matter of them not turning the paperwork in yet. 

That's exactly what they want you to think. 

[JAGdb 71]

https://www.the-sun.com/news/10227036/db-cooper-hijack-passenger-hostage-cool-boss-charge/

305 passenger Michael Cooper is interviewed in this article.  He has some interesting comments that I had never heard before.

"[DB] was just, I would say, cool. Whenever I looked at him, he just looked right back and stared at me like he was the boss."

Michael Cooper

[georger 197]

6 hours ago, JAGdb said:

https://www.the-sun.com/news/10227036/db-cooper-hijack-passenger-hostage-cool-boss-charge/

305 passenger Michael Cooper is interviewed in this article.  He has some interesting comments that I had never heard before.

"[DB] was just, I would say, cool. Whenever I looked at him, he just looked right back and stared at me like he was the boss."

Michael Cooper

Thats interesting character info ... but Carr would disagree. Cooper was a nobody and a nothing who acted on the spur of the moment and died due to his inept unprofessional nature fueled by greed. An air pirate bank robber who forgot to swallow and tie his shoes?

Evidence is the only thing left worth pursuing from here on out, if there is any still out there in Hooterville or Garden Grove ?

How and where does Carr suggest people look for Cooper's bones since Carr knows for a fact Cooper died somewhere ?  That part remains unknown.

Edited January 31 by georger

[olemisscub 466]

2 hours ago, JAGdb said:

https://www.the-sun.com/news/10227036/db-cooper-hijack-passenger-hostage-cool-boss-charge/

305 passenger Michael Cooper is interviewed in this article.  He has some interesting comments that I had never heard before.

"[DB] was just, I would say, cool. Whenever I looked at him, he just looked right back and stared at me like he was the boss."

Michael Cooper

Sorry to besmirch a passenger on the Cooper flight, but this is an embellishment on his part. We have his 302.