DB Cooper

[Amazon 7]

BobKnoss

" Amazon is consulting with my pharmacist on Tylenol overdoses. And Farf is the only smart one. He's gone.

DUUUUDE... that is NOT Tylenol that is lighting up that fantasy world you know and love so much

[BobKnoss 0]

mrshutter45

Bob says: It can NEVER be prosecuted....

Bob says in 2006: Duane was told to clear all of the passengers and the stews before presenting the note. The fact that he did not do it correctly changed the charges to a life term offense, for kidnapping. The law is the law.

Shutter says: all the above is incorrect, was the plane going to fly itself, that's the only way Coopers not getting kidnapping charges...


Bob, the ship has sunk, you are now in the life raft and it's taking on water fast.....swim forrest swim

yes Bob, the smart one (Farf) seen right thru ya too.....

That post is absolutely stupid. Who wrote that for you? You have more sense than that, don't you?

Kidnapping charges have not been filed. The pilot and co-pilot fly the plane. I am repeating the instructions given during training. If you have a debate, take it up with the trainer. Not my plan. I'm just stating FACTS.

Cooper is dead. Co-conspirators are mostly dead now, three left excluding me. Many other 'in-the-know', still kickin'.

"Bob says: It can NEVER be prosecuted...."

I was quoting Larry Carr.

[mrshutter45 21]

but again Robert, it says RE {mrshutter45}

do you know the difference between oscillation and pressure bump?

"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI

[mrshutter45 21]

RobertMBlevins

***but again Robert, it says RE {mrshutter45}

do you know the difference between oscillation and pressure bump?

Okay. I'll try to remember.

Difference: One is like the shaking from a small earthquake. The other...watch out you don't bang your head on the ceiling. I haven't a clue, actually.
the you really shouldn't be judging the path findings. it appears that Paul didn't understand either.

the oscillation was Cooper going down the stairs, this was the area they searched. but Rat claims the pressure bump occurred later. this is was what registered on the gauges from the door slamming back up. this was not in the area they searched. so, where do you think the path timing is correct, or the search area? they could of easily mistaken the oscillation as the jump. that's what is on the transcripts. if I am incorrect, someone will key in....

the best person to ask is Rat, he is the one who talks about the pressure bump.......

"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI

[mrshutter45 21]

Robert, where is the trick question. I told you the difference between the two.
what time did the light go off?
7:43 aft light on.....

"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI

[mrshutter45 21]

So the time reported when the crew mentioned the oscillations was when Cooper most likely started down the stairs. The further he got down the stairs the more air would be rushing through the cabin. The pressure bump, which would be when he jumped, occurred (according to Rataczak) 10 to 15 minutes after their last contact with Cooper at 8:05.

Now, this is also according to Rat, take the worse case in his time of 10-15 minutes and look on the map.

this information is from Ckret, I'm guessing he is looking at files and quoting what Rat said....

"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI

[Robert99 37]

Blevins writes:

Let me quote Rataczak again:

Quote

'I do know that our technical support people who were on the radio with us during the hijacking, especially Paul Soderlind, tried to determine the exact area where Cooper might have jumped. We relied heavily on him for technical information during the flight. He was head of Technical Operations in our Flight Training Department.

Paul and many others did a lot of work trying to determine the exact area in general, and then tried to narrow down where the hijacker could have landed after he jumped from the airplane. They finally determined the likely spot. Well, our crew on board was 99% sure they were correct because we felt a tremendous amount of pressure bump in our ears when the aft stairs rebounded when they closed. It would be like rolling down and rolling back up the window with a vast crank on your car when you’re speeding down the highway, which is something we’ve all experienced with our ears.

We also got confirmation on the Flight Engineer’s panel indicating that the stairs had momentarily closed. I make the analogy that walking down those aft stairs during flight was like walking to the end of a diving board. The more you weigh, the more the board will bend, and when Cooper finally jumped from it, the stairs rebounded and sort of came back to neutral. Well, the stairs were open about thirty to thirty-six inches under the air-stream after Cooper opened the door—that’s just the natural point where they will fall – the gap between the bottom of the stairs and the closure point in flight. When he walked out there his weight made the steps open further the farther he went down. Then, he was certainly able to jump from the bottom step. So we pretty much know when he jumped.

Where he jumped was up to air-traffic control to coordinate with our technical people. They plotted an area based on winds that were prevalent at that time, and then, of course, there were different approaches to his fall that could have occurred. When did he deploy the chute, for example? Did he deploy it immediately? If he did, then he would be carried farther from the jump point by the wind. Or if something went wrong and he didn’t deploy at all and ended up boring a hole in the ground and is forever buried and is now nothing more than a skeleton, then he would have been closer to point of departure. So, somewhere in between is where he probably landed. With the winds it is hard to say...'

(Bill Rataczak, 2009 interview)

Blevins, Just a couple of days ago, you were claiming that Cooper had to jump through an opening between the aft stairs and the fuselage that was only 24 to 36 inches.

Nevertheless, you have quoted Rataczak as stating that was only the in flight free fall of the stairs under its own weight. Rataczak then explains about the additional opening of the stairs with a jumper on the stairs.

Blevins, You should really take the time to read your own posts as well as those by others.

Robert99

[georger 197]

Robert99

Blevins writes:

Let me quote Rataczak again:

Quote

'I do know that our technical support people who were on the radio with us during the hijacking, especially Paul Soderlind, tried to determine the exact area where Cooper might have jumped. We relied heavily on him for technical information during the flight. He was head of Technical Operations in our Flight Training Department.

Paul and many others did a lot of work trying to determine the exact area in general, and then tried to narrow down where the hijacker could have landed after he jumped from the airplane. They finally determined the likely spot. Well, our crew on board was 99% sure they were correct because we felt a tremendous amount of pressure bump in our ears when the aft stairs rebounded when they closed. It would be like rolling down and rolling back up the window with a vast crank on your car when you’re speeding down the highway, which is something we’ve all experienced with our ears.

We also got confirmation on the Flight Engineer’s panel indicating that the stairs had momentarily closed. I make the analogy that walking down those aft stairs during flight was like walking to the end of a diving board. The more you weigh, the more the board will bend, and when Cooper finally jumped from it, the stairs rebounded and sort of came back to neutral. Well, the stairs were open about thirty to thirty-six inches under the air-stream after Cooper opened the door—that’s just the natural point where they will fall – the gap between the bottom of the stairs and the closure point in flight. When he walked out there his weight made the steps open further the farther he went down. Then, he was certainly able to jump from the bottom step. So we pretty much know when he jumped.

Where he jumped was up to air-traffic control to coordinate with our technical people. They plotted an area based on winds that were prevalent at that time, and then, of course, there were different approaches to his fall that could have occurred. When did he deploy the chute, for example? Did he deploy it immediately? If he did, then he would be carried farther from the jump point by the wind. Or if something went wrong and he didn’t deploy at all and ended up boring a hole in the ground and is forever buried and is now nothing more than a skeleton, then he would have been closer to point of departure. So, somewhere in between is where he probably landed. With the winds it is hard to say...'

(Bill Rataczak, 2009 interview)

Blevins, Just a couple of days ago, you were claiming that Cooper had to jump through an opening between the aft stairs and the fuselage that was only 24 to 36 inches.

Nevertheless, you have quoted Rataczak as stating that was only the in flight free fall of the stairs under its own weight. Rataczak then explains about the additional opening of the stairs with a jumper on the stairs.

Blevins, You should really take the time to read your own posts as well as those by others.

Robert99

Quote

That in addition to just parroting Rtczk and Tom Kaye's ("smart people") website.

Those of us who have read these files umpteen times almost
have it memorised and we 'know' where this-n-that quotation
comes from, and what you've been reading - since none of it is
original with you.

So let me ask this:

What do you estimate the retraction time of the stairs fully
extended (bottomed) was? Any idea? You won't finds this
on any internet website or in any Rataczak quote.

And what would be the implications of this 'window'?

I'll come back later to see where you are -

• Quote

[mrshutter45 21]

So, if we are to take the word of the flight path and what Rataczak says about his time frame
we have a jump area well past the original jump area. why did they all agree in the first jump
area? is it possible we have mistakes?

Something is wrong here, I want to see if I can match the time frames given by the FBI. plain
and simple. if things don't add up we have a stepping stone as to where the plane wasn't.
I'm not trying to discredit any work on the map, I'm simply trying to find out if it can be flown
as they present it.

I wasted a whole day off going thru hoops on this....good nite

"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI

[georger 197]

mrshutter45

So, if we are to take the word of the flight path and what Rataczak says about his time frame
we have a jump area well past the original jump area. why did they all agree in the first jump
area? is it possible we have mistakes?

Something is wrong here, I want to see if I can match the time frames given by the FBI. plain
and simple. if things don't add up we have a stepping stone as to where the plane wasn't.
I'm not trying to discredit any work on the map, I'm simply trying to find out if it can be flown
as they present it.

I wasted a whole day off going thru hoops on this....good nite

Quote

damned good work!

[Robert99 37]

Blevins, You still do not understand that the so called 24 by 36 inch opening did not have anything at all to do with whether Cooper backed down the stairs or not. It is totally irrelevant how he went down those stairs.

Also, from the newspaper article you quoted, Cooper did not specify ANY specific route to Reno. He did agree to go to Reno but neither V-23 or any other airway was even mentioned to Cooper or by him to anyone else.

Instead of reading newspaper articles, it would be a good idea for you to read the radio transcripts themselves. Nothing beats going to the original sources.

Robert99

[mrshutter45 21]

georger

***So, if we are to take the word of the flight path and what Rataczak says about his time frame
we have a jump area well past the original jump area. why did they all agree in the first jump
area? is it possible we have mistakes?

Something is wrong here, I want to see if I can match the time frames given by the FBI. plain
and simple. if things don't add up we have a stepping stone as to where the plane wasn't.
I'm not trying to discredit any work on the map, I'm simply trying to find out if it can be flown
as they present it.

I wasted a whole day off going thru hoops on this....good nite

Quote

damned good work!
Thanks G, means a lot coming from you.

"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI

[georger 197]

mrshutter45

******So, if we are to take the word of the flight path and what Rataczak says about his time frame
we have a jump area well past the original jump area. why did they all agree in the first jump
area? is it possible we have mistakes?

Something is wrong here, I want to see if I can match the time frames given by the FBI. plain
and simple. if things don't add up we have a stepping stone as to where the plane wasn't.
I'm not trying to discredit any work on the map, I'm simply trying to find out if it can be flown
as they present it.

I wasted a whole day off going thru hoops on this....good nite

Quote

damned good work!
Thanks G, means a lot coming from you.

nope - you're the guy doing the heavy lifting right now ...

[georger 197]

RobertMBlevins

Georger says in part:

Quote

'That in addition to just parroting Rtczk and Tom Kaye's ("smart people") website.

Those of us who have read these files umpteen times almost have it memorised and we 'know' where this-n-that quotation comes from, and what you've been reading - since none of it is original with you.

So let me ask this:

What do you estimate the retraction time of the stairs fully
extended (bottomed) was? Any idea? You won't finds this
on any internet website or in any Rataczak quote.

And what would be the implications of this 'window'?

I'll come back later to see where you are -'

How the hell should I know? I'm not a pilot. I wasn't aboard 305.

Quote

Well think about it, God damnit!

This would be elementary for Farflung and Farf is looking over
our shoulders still . . . probably laughing his ass off that I
brought this up ... or crying that I did! I know where I sit in the
scheme of things - - -

• Quote

[Robert99 37]

RobertMBlevins

Because...the plane was moving at approximately three miles a minute and these seconds might narrow down the jump point?

This is a nearly impossible task without going to sources. And even if you get solid sources, how would you narrow it down to say...8:12.36PM as a jump point? The crew wasn't sitting up there with a stopwatch and holding their breath. If you could 100% narrow that window to only TWO MINUTES, you would do better than anyone else has ever done on the case.

You are asking the wrong guy. This is the realm of FBI records, or interviews with people who created the original data.

Blevins, Earlier this evening you were going along with some "very smart" people on the jump point. Now, in the quote above you plainly say that if you can come within six miles of the jump point then you are doing better than anyone previously.

Have you noticed anything inconsistent with your claims? Six miles is not very precise in a matter such as this.

Robert99

[georger 197]

RobertMBlevins

******Georger says in part:

Quote

'That in addition to just parroting Rtczk and Tom Kaye's ("smart people") website.

Those of us who have read these files umpteen times almost have it memorised and we 'know' where this-n-that quotation comes from, and what you've been reading - since none of it is original with you.

So let me ask this:

What do you estimate the retraction time of the stairs fully
extended (bottomed) was? Any idea? You won't finds this
on any internet website or in any Rataczak quote.

And what would be the implications of this 'window'?

I'll come back later to see where you are -'

How the hell should I know? I'm not a pilot. I wasn't aboard 305.

Quote

Well think about it, God damnit!

This would be elementary for Farflung and Farf is looking over our shoulders still . . . probably laughing his ass off that I brought this up ... or crying that I did! I know where I sit in the scheme of things - - -

You cherry-picked my quote. That's okay. I've done that occasionally. But my question remains the same. If you have a point here, why don't you make it?

You want me to take a guess at 'retraction time' after Cooper jumped from the stairs? I'll assume you are trying to determine the number of seconds between the time Cooper actually jumped and when the indicator light on the panel went OFF, and then ON again for the remainder of the flight to Reno. Some seconds were involved, sure.

Because...the plane was moving at approximately three miles a minute and these seconds might narrow down the jump point?

This is a nearly impossible task without going to sources. And even if you get solid sources, how would you narrow it down to say...8:12.36PM as a jump point? The crew wasn't sitting up there with a stopwatch and holding their breath. If you could 100% narrow that window to only TWO MINUTES, you would do better than anyone else has ever done on the case.

You are asking the wrong guy. This is the realm of FBI records, or interviews with people who created the original data.

Blevins. None of the above. You are wallowing in your paranoia
again. You say: "If you have a point here, why don't you make
it? "

"If you have a point here" ?

I guess my question was worthless.

Thanks for your wisdom and self sacrifice.

Bonsai!

• Quote

[georger 197]

RobertMBlevins

Georger says in part:

Quote

'I guess my question was worthless...'

Pretty much. Unless you have an actual point or something.

Eat more skunk, darling.

[MeyerLouie 5]

RobertMBlevins

***but again Robert, it says RE {mrshutter45}

do you know the difference between oscillation and pressure bump?

Okay. I'll try to remember.

Difference: One is like the shaking from a small earthquake. The other...watch out you don't bang your head on the ceiling. I haven't a clue, actually.
Seriously now. I'm starting to think that contacting members of Soderlind's family might be a good place to start to get some background on how the maps and flight path were established. As I said earlier, I dropped Facebook messages on his sons. See what happens, I guess and go from there. Georger, actually...might be better source for any additional names. That was a good idea by you guys...trying to establish Who Is Responsible For the Map/Flight Path and How They Did It. Always try to go to the source, as the saying goes.

_______________________________________________

How is Soderlind's sons the "source"? Look up primary sources in juxtaposition to secondary sources. The source would be the guy himself, not his sons. The sons were most likely no even around in 1971. What is the likelihood they would be in the know about the flight path? Big jump, shaky at best. There's no way Soderlind's sons would be the "source." That's Research 101, Blevins.

MeyerLouie

[MeyerLouie 5]

RobertMBlevins

Georger says in part:

***'That in addition to just parroting Rtczk and Tom Kaye's ("smart people") website.

Those of us who have read these files umpteen times almost have it memorised and we 'know' where this-n-that quotation comes from, and what you've been reading - since none of it is original with you.

So let me ask this:

What do you estimate the retraction time of the stairs fully
extended (bottomed) was? Any idea? You won't finds this
on any internet website or in any Rataczak quote.

And what would be the implications of this 'window'?

I'll come back later to see where you are -'

How the hell should I know?

_______________________________________________


See Blevins, this is the point you should quit talking. You really don't know, so stop already!

MeyerLouie

[MeyerLouie 5]

RobertMBlevins

Georger says in part:

Quote

'I guess my question was worthless...'

Pretty much. Unless you have an actual point or something.

I hate to do this to you, but I would like a vote on something non-Cooper.

Do you think that THIS is the best version of a certain famous song?

Or THIS version. First thing I would check is the time stamp, to see who dedicated more effort to the rendition.

Call me stupid, but I'm going for the blonde.
I've always been a sucker for blondes.
Lately I've been thinking Jerry Baber is a genius.
They should have put him on the Cooper case.

I don't have an AA-12, but trust me when I tell you that I'm heading into the mountains for the Fourth of July this year, and much fun will be had. When I'm not blasting off rounds at safe-and-sane targets, I will be barbecuing or listening to episodes of 'X-Minus-1' and other classic radio programs. It's a tradition.

_______________________________________________

You're definitely A.D.D. Where the hell did all of this come from, Mr. 25 %-er?

MeyerLouie

[mrshutter45 21]

ok Robert, take a look at the document I have provided and tell me where the problems are and why.

these are from transcripts and words from Ckret reading what Bill R said in 1971 and finally what Bill said in the article you showed.

"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI

[Douggarr 6]

http://woodinville.patch.com/groups/police-and-fire/p/homicide-victim-identified-as-earl-cossey-of-woodinville

This just posted on FB. We know that Earl was murdered. We don't know anything beyond this fact. The article did not say whether anything in the house was missing, which would indicate a robbery. So we can speculate all we want. No suspects apparently.

SCR-442, SCS-202, CCR-870, SOS-1353

[georger 197]

RobertMBlevins

***ok Robert, take a look at the document I have provided and tell me where the problems are and why.

these are from transcripts and words from Ckret reading what Bill R said in 1971 and finally what Bill said in the article you showed.

Sounds like one entry of the transcript was an add-on. The typist added in an additional message from the crew. Now...in articles written about the event, those time estimates might have been written up by the reporters. Rataczak has been interviewed many times, and it seems natural over the years that he might tell reporters rounded-off figures. For example, saying 7:45 for an entry, when in reality the event happened at 7:43.

The only trustworthy record would be the transcript, in my opinion. But the time stamps are also tricky because there would be some delay between the crew's actual radio contact and the time the typist enters the information.

Sounds as if the 8:10 entry was the add-on somehow. Maybe the typist is trying to narrow down the time the crew actually reported the stairs were causing an occillation. It is difficult to decipher. I don't know. Four or five minutes, twelve to fifteen miles, that's a lot of search area.

It's possible that Cooper jumped a bit further south than the Lake Merwin area, but that begs one point and another question: If the people working on the jump point had access to the transcript and saw these things, and were speaking to the crew, (during and after the flight) how did they decide to pick the search area that they did?

See...this is a question for the FBI I think. Or the people who decided the search area from the data.

Douggarr says in part:

Quote

'http://woodinville.patch.com/groups/police-and-fire/p/homicide-victim-identified-as-earl-cossey-of-woodinville

This just posted on FB. We know that Earl was murdered. We don't know anything beyond this fact. The article did not say whether anything in the house was missing, which would indicate a robbery. So we can speculate all we want. No suspects apparently.

I'll bet you are the same Doug who doesn't like the idea of rebuilding the school building in Woodinville. I'm with you on this. They should just hire more cops and stop being so secretive on some of the information regarding Cossey. The Woodinville police chief classified it as a burglary at the last City Council meeting but would give no other details. My opinion is that people in Cossey's neighborhood might appreciate knowing whether or not there is a burglar in the neighborhood who has now graduated to murder. I hope they find Cossey's killer soon.

Quote

Hey copycat, outside of parroting the thread, what are you
getting out of this?

Your boom box drive byes are getting tiresome!

• Quote

[Robert99 37]

RobertMBlevins

The only trustworthy record would be the transcript, in my opinion. But the time stamps are also tricky because there would be some delay between the crew's actual radio contact and the time the typist enters the information.

. . . . . . . .

It's possible that Cooper jumped a bit further south than the Lake Merwin area, but that begs one point and another question: If the people working on the jump point had access to the transcript and saw these things, and were speaking to the crew, (during and after the flight) how did they decide to pick the search area that they did?

Blevins, The problems with the times has been known for years. And I may have posted on these problems a few dozen times myself right here on the Cooper thread and elsewhere.

Are you aware that the Cooper jump zone was reportedly worked up on the night of the actual hijacking? This was not a leisurely academic exercise done days later.

Robert99

[skyjack71 0]

Then there is the insert added by Rataczak later - stating 7:45 and Cooper alone in Cabin. Yet, it has been reported and told by Tina at the time of the crime - that she was ordered forward by Cooper and she peeked back behind the curtain as Cooper was putting the chute ON.

She has also been purported to state his cutting the cord and tieing the package to himself. If she was in the cabin at 7:45 - SHE did NOT see these things OR the JUMP TIME is WAY off.

There are some SERIOUS problems with this time line - Perhaps the notes regarding TINA need to be scrutinzed a little more throughly.

If the transcribing of the notes indicate Tina is with them in the cabin - at 7:42 - THERE is a serious time lapse here.

HOW much time lapsed from the time Tina went to the cabin and the estimated time of the jump.

Remember GUYS I do NOT understand the technical language, but I see a problem with the time line...and the notations involving Tina. They DO not fit the stories told by the Crew. Tina was in the cabin when the aft stairs was opened?

Per other reports in the only 2 personal interviews she gave. If the minutes recorded are correct -she was forward with the Pilot and Co-Pilot! Therefore she could not see the thing that she reported. How he tied the package to himself - looking back from the curtain when he told her to go forward.

JUST exactly HOW man minute pasted AFTER Tina went to the front of the plane and when Cooper supposedly jumped.

Don't use all that technical shit.
Those of us who are not military or pilots may not understand that.

7:43 PM Aft Stair particial opened.

Yet there is an insert below that is a statement inserted by Bill R.
at 7;45 that Cooper is alone in the cabin.

I know there was a problem because the pilot or co-pilot asked him if he needed some help and he said NO. Then it was directly after that they felt the BUMP and knew Cooper had left.

They made another communication after the Bump and there was NO answer!

Something is wrong with this time line if it is supposedly correct:

7:43 or 7:45 - Light on - stairwell lowered! ??????

WHO HOW and why did they insert the last contact time as 8:05 - I know they wanted to know if he needed any help and he said NO very firmly.

If 8:05 is correct - Cooper had been alone in the cabin since 7:45. That is at least 20 minutes and then he waits 10 to 15 more minutes before he jumps! Too many after the fact inserts in this record by GOD only knows who.

If Coop Waited 10 to 15 minutes he was doing something - but, what! Was he slowly going down the stair way or was he waiting for some kind of signal or land mark to be visible? DID her resecure his package after Tina left - there was plenty of time if the time line is correct. What kind of signal was Coop looking for or waiting for?

Simple questions with simple answers in plain old english and normal time - NOT every one is military. The file looks like LOTS of individuals made inserts so this would not be the ACTUAL transcript coming over the communications system!

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber