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peek

Attention Skydivers: Jumping a BASE rig from aircraft in the US is not just illegal, but stupid

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For the record, I believe that jumping a BASE kit at the WFFC from a balloon was a poor decision by whoever tried. That being said....

Skydiving and BASE for all their differences also have some similarites. The largest being that they are in most aspects self-policing. Are you aware of just exactly what "self-policing" means? It means "keeping it in the family". That would mean you approaching an S&TA, an organizer, the pilot, other pilots etc. But you chose to involve "Dixie"

The FAA is NOT part of that family. The FAA is NOT part of the skydiving community.

In your ignorance, you believe that this was an open and shut situation. Your posts have illustrated this to be true. But guess what, "Dixie" works for the FAA...not just during the WFFC, but every fucking day.

Dixie is now having discussions with her colleagues about the inappropriate actions she saw at the convention. They are discussing how the pilot didn't know better. They are discussing why the event organizers didn't catch this. They are discussing all kinds of negative things that could affect future WFFC's, future boogies, all DZ's etc etc. Maybe you like the FAA's head up your ass, and your DZO's ass, and your boogy organizer's ass? Maybe you feel it is the role of our government to save people from themselves?

And for you to say that jumping a BASE rig from a balloon is stupid...well gee, thanks for imposing your belief system onto others. I'm glad that the reserve on your back has you blinded to the fact that none of what any of us do is "safe".
Get in - Get off - Get away....repeat as neccessary

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The real problem is that a pilot can get his license jerked for permitting someone to jump illegal (by that I mean non-compliant with FAA regs) gear. Gear safety is not the main issue here.

If the balloon pilot was knowledgeable about the regulations and possible consequences and he agreed to do it anyway, then fine. That may not have been the case, though.

Walt

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The FAA is NOT part of that family. The FAA is NOT part of the skydiving community. ***

Wrong, their a big part of the family, and have the say so over what we do. Most are inspectors are a easy to work with and good people.
I guess you haven't had much to do with your local FSDO.

Maybe you feel it is the role of our government to save people from themselves? ***

Had you worked with your local FSDO, you would know that it is NOT their job to "save us from us" they could care less about saving your ass, thier job is to save the "us" from you!

Good work Peek, thanks for looking out for skydiving.

~
you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

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Not to go off topic, but might we start another thread on these issues also? You know, to be fair and all. ;)

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I'd agree with you there. So, why don't you get the guys who:

- Land Mr Bill's
- Spiral through the stacks
- Land downwind in a busy area
- Jump out wiithout taking their seatbelt off
- Open the aircraft emergency exit door up by the pilot


Leroy


..I knew I was an unwanted baby when I saw my bath toys were a toaster and a radio...

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yeah,
soooo typical--you don't get it--i hope the moderators (veiled threat) don't get you as well as the faa--cant' you do anything without the MAN to protect you????????like i said B 4!

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.. the best thing you should of done is just have gone up to the guy and warn him yourself before you got the LAW after him.



You are cracking me up man!

The personal attacks are so good that I hope the moderators leave them in, because I'm having a good time with them. :)

I asked the FAA rep for her help simply because she was there and available in a timely manner. It could have been another skydiver, the S&TA, etc.

It wasn't a "law" thing, the jump never happened.



yeah,
soooo typical--you don't get it--i hope the moderators (veiled threat)don't get you as well as the faa--cant' you do anything without the MAN to protect you????????like i said B 4!
NPS SUX ASS

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have you ever pencil packed your rig?

the title - illegal, in this country yes. stupid? hardly. maybe to people who are lacking the knowledge about base. most of the people shouting 'party foul' are people that don't base jump.

i guess alot of other countries must be full of stupid people then, because i know that they are allowed to jump their base rigs from aircraft. wonder why it's only stupid here....

and saying something to the FAA....priceless. back to the question about pencil packing....

(for what it's worth to those that read this - if i'm not mistaken, the pilot can get into as much trouble for an out of date or pencil packed reserve as they can for someone jumping a base rig. now start casting the hypocritical stones...)

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The real problem is that a pilot can get his license jerked for permitting someone to jump illegal (by that I mean non-compliant with FAA regs) gear. Gear safety is not the main issue here.

If the balloon pilot was knowledgeable about the regulations and possible consequences and he agreed to do it anyway, then fine. That may not have been the case, though.

Walt



Yes, you are absolutely correct and I was waiting on someone to call me on it! The consequences for an unknowing pilot can be quite high.
Looks like a death sandwich without the bread - Steve Deadman Morrell, BASE 174

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Did you also run to the FAA every time someone or some acft punches a cloud?

or How about when people pull way low and have 2 out cypres fires?

If your actions were about safety, I would think you would bring up these F.A.R and USPA violations when they occur...

I met the FAA bunch at the WFFC (being one of them) and they were really cool people.

-Justiun

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>What if the jumper was using a 2 parachute system designed for
> BASE but was not TSO'd? For example, the Sorcerer rig, which can
> deploy a reserve chute in 25 feet if packed slider down. Or a
> conventional BASE rig with a D-ring and a belly mounted tersh
> parachute?

All of those are pretty much the same from a how-the-FAA-can-screw-the-pilot point of view. The issue here is not safety; a rig that was safe on Tuesday does not become unsafe Wednesday because it's out of date. The issue is screwing the pilot.

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the title - illegal, in this country yes. stupid? hardly. maybe to people who are lacking the knowledge about base. most of the people shouting 'party foul' are people that don't base jump.




perhaps they are lacking in base knowledge but this was a skydiving event. If a skydiver turns up at a base event with a skydiving rig you think he would be allowed to jump.

mutual respect is needed by both sides here. The fact the guy tried it on and got caught doesn't, to me show that respect.

In the Uk it is also Illegal to jump a base rig from a aircraft.

Billy-Sonic Haggis Flickr-Fun


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Gary, I know you think you're looking out for the sport, and good on ya for that.

There is nothing particularly stupid about jumping a properly designed and packed base rig from a balloon at low altitudes. Infact it's a damn sight safer than jumping a highly loaded eliptical.

I applaud you for addressing the issue with the jumper and protecting the ballon pilot, however you really seemed to step on your own crank and gave the sport a possible black eye by involving any FAA personel.

There was no violation committed, and now anyone in the FAA who might hear this story from "Dixie" will have one more nugget of information that says "skydivers are crackpots".
----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

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Why not take this up with the jumper in question instead of giving the whole sport of BASE a sucker punch in the nose.



Well, I certainly don't think I did anything negative to the BASE community (unless a large percentage are jumping out of aircraft).

This jumper denied any problem at all with what he planned to do so I looked for other people to help me try to use peer pressure to convince him it was not a good idea.

My previous posts explain my idea.

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Well gee, the FAA has been all over Perris lately with the jet and all.

So if I witness something that I feel is in violation of FAR's, I guess I should go find the FAA inspector that happens to be around as opposed to bringing it up with manifest / management??? I bet I wouldn't be welcome at the DZ anymore if I chose this route.

Do you feel the FAA is part of the family because they make the rules and have the power? Having a big stick doesn't make you part of anything...
Get in - Get off - Get away....repeat as neccessary

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I'm a relatively experienced BASE jumper, but I'm not really a skydiver (I'm fast approaching 3 times as many BASE jumps as skydives). Here are some of my off the cuff thoughts on this:

1) I'm not a skydiver. When I go to jump out of an airplane, there are people with a lot more experience than me, who have organized a system that is meant to keep me relatively safe, and as free of government intervention as practical. I'm in favor of both of those outcomes.

2) I hate when experienced skydivers show up at objects and tell me all about how safe their gear or technique is, simply because it's been tested and proven jumping from airplanes. If I saw someone at my local object with a skydiving rig, I'd be likely to chew on him a bit about how stupid and dangerous that was.

3) I've made jumps from balloons and other aircraft on BASE gear. I think ballon jumps are a great training tool. I've never wanted to put anyone else unknowingly at risk, though, and I've made sure the balloon pilots knew what they were getting into. I've also never done this in a way that left other people on the hook for my actions (for example, jumping at an organized skydiving event). I think it would be pretty inconsiderate of me to put someone else in harms way because of what I was doing. To me, not putting other people's well being (personal, physical, financial, or whatever) at risk without their consent (if at all) is simply the right way to conduct my life. I'm happy to take risks for myself--not for others who don't know what they are getting into.



It seems to me that what Gary did here is pretty similar to what I'd have done if Gary (for example) showed up in my hometown with a skydiving rig, ready to jump the bridge here. I'd try to stop him from doing it, give him a stern lecture on how foolish he was being, and then see if there was anyone else around he was more likely to listen to than me, to impress upon him what a bad choice this was.

I'm not saying that BASE jumps can't be made on skydiving gear. We all know that they can, and that they have. But it's a wiser choice to use BASE gear. I believe the same thing is true in reverse. Skydives can be made on BASE gear, and they have--but it's a wiser choice to use skydiving gear, and to use it in a manner consistent with it's design.

Obviously there are grey areas both ways. Skydiving rigs might be considered marginally acceptable at a terminal wall, for example, just as BASE rigs are probably more acceptable for use from balloons than airplanes. But if that guy showed up at the terminal wall in Southern Norway with a skydiving rig, I know the SBK wouldn't be letting him on their boat or in their van. Why, then, would it be ok for him to show up at the WFFC expecting to take a BASE rig out of an aircraft?

The only thing Gary did that I have any problem with is his involvement of the FAA. As a BASE jumper, the idea of invoking a governmental authority in a jumping dispute is pretty much guaranteed to turn my stomach. Maybe that's a cultural difference between BASE and skydiving--not being a skydiver, I can't really say.


I guess what I'm saying is this: BASE and skydiving are different activities. I expect skydivers to respect that, and to adjust their expectations, attitudes, and equipment accordingly when they choose to enter the BASE environment. In the same manner, I adjust my expectations, attitudes, and equipment when I go skydiving.

It's high time that we realized there are vast differences between skydiving and BASE--and that if we expect skydivers to respect that, we ought to be doing the same.
-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

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I do not mean to intrude... but maybe a better approach would have been ( if possible) to find another base jumper at the convention to speak to him and explain to him. Then it is kept in the base family, who would probably spend more time with the jumper than ordinary skydivers.

Just my 0.02


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It's high time that we realized there are vast differences between skydiving and BASE--and that if we expect skydivers to respect that, we ought to be doing the same.



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should the experienced skydiver be able to look after his sport as we look after ours



It still happens in the sport of parachuting......... unless you have "RESPECT" or are "KNOWN", people dont listen to you...........

NEVER poo-poo someone at your DZ, in public life, or on this board............ you have no idea what they may have done................

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There is a law.

If's it's not a TSO'd dual-parachute system, it's not legal to jump it from an aircraft.

Personally, I think putting the pilot in a position where they might have to deal with the FAA for a base jump is pretty selfish.[:/]



There is a substantial difference between an FAA regulation and a "Law". Violate an FAR and you are subject to civil penalties, IE, fines and/or loss of your FAA certificates, IE, Private Pilot certificate, etc (if you have them). Violate a law and you can get fined or do community service or jail time.

Taking advantage of an aircraft operator's ignorance as to what gear is TSOed and what gear isn't is unlikely to make more aircraft available for jumping. Quite the contrary.

It is our responsibility as skydivers to be self policing.

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Gee wiz, I guess it never crossed your mind that in fact there are some FAA inspectors who skydive and are also parachute riggers, there for they are part of the family, like it or not!

As for running to the FED's instead of manifest it would depend on what your reporting.
If your going to run to them everytime a jumper bust a cloud, then your a dumbass.
However if you see perris valley staff doing the same fuel swapping act like in 92 I would hope you would go talk to the FED's, if you don't your really a dumbass! WHY? because if they are doing it again they didn't learn the first time around, so what makes you think your expressing a concern is going to stop them this time.


To diablopilot,

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and gave the sport a possible black eye by involving any FAA personel.

There was no violation committed, and now anyone in the FAA who might hear this story from "Dixie" will have one more nugget of information that says "skydivers are crackpots".



No blackeye, it shows that we as jumpers are looking after our sport.
As for crackpots the FED's already know this, that's why the FAR's say you have to jump using XYZ rig, no where in that FAR it say's you have to open any canopy, (it's not a FAR violation if you bounce,no pull)
but if you bounce in a backyard and takeout
some kid on a swing set, their going to nail the pilot of dropping a body on a kid. (endangering people and property on the ground) the FED's don't care if you kill yourself, only if you kill someone else while killing yourself.

To everyone slaming Mr.Peek,

It has been painfully obviously for many, many years
now that the BASE crowd seem to think there above the law, you tresspass, B&E, property damage ECT.
Show a total disrespect for other peoples rights and property,risk our sport and others way of making a living by jumping out of AC,
when one of your own bounces you call 911 and run off like a bunch of cowards, because your tresspassing ect.
Then you whine a cry because you can't jump El'cap and the like, guess what, you stupid fuckers are the reason us law abiding citizens can go to El' cap and jump it and the main reason it is outlawed is because of the total lack of respect your peers have shown over the years in that park.

A lot of you need to clean up your act! IMHO

To bad more of you can't have the outlook Tom A. seems to have.

~
you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

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The FAA is NOT part of that family. The FAA is NOT part of the skydiving community.



unfortunately, the FAA "IS" part of the skydiving family..
they are not part of the BASE comunity. but it might be nice if they were... dont you think?


and Arlo... I have never pencil packed my rig.,:)
back to everyone:

I wish BASE jumping was legal. not that I want to do it, but you have the right to do what you want.

I get to swoop, that is legal.. thank god!!! I would be all up in arms if it wasn't

and if any of you can use MY help, to get BASE jumping legal, then let me know..

but don't you DARE fucking think for one second, your going to RUIN what I got....

BASE jumping out of a balloon at a "skydiving" boogie WITH the "FAA" present..... is fucking "STUPID!!!!!"WHY???? because it is illigal!!!!

im sorry that it is illigal, but it is what it is....dont fuck up what I got.....please..!

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I wish BASE jumping was legal.



That's funny, I thought it was legal besides inside of some national parks. As far as I know, there are no laws against BASE jumping if you have permission from the fixed object owner and the land below it.

The 20 BASE jumps I've done have all been legal: Bridge Day, the Perrine, Norway.

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