2 2
peek

Attention Skydivers: Jumping a BASE rig from aircraft in the US is not just illegal, but stupid

Recommended Posts

[:/]
Quote

Quote

Can you chime in and just confirm this? I was not involved in 1997 so I would not be able to confirm nor deny that this happened.



I didn't see it, but I heard about it. It seems likely.



I was there and part of it. Avery and Dennis were the organizers. Unfortunately, the winds didn't co-operate

How do we know that the pilot didn't agree to let him out after dropping the skydivers?
I've heard ;) that some pilots might let you out after dropping the first load, once they are out of sight.

edited to add: Either way I don't think going to the FAA was the right decision[:/] As you said he didn't make the load, so....... ?
NEVER GIVE UP!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Maybe a better approach would of been to warn the balloon pilot about the jumpers intentions and the fact that there is an FAA rep present.

Here here. As far as the FAA goes, responsibility falls on the pilot. This includes donning the proper gear, seatbelts, position of jumpers in the aircraft, etc.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

I may have missed something, but a tethered balloon is not governed by the FAA.
It would need to be free flying or over a certain height (500 feet AGL I believe) before it would fall into their jurisdiction.

I believe that is the case, too. Perris' FJC had a balloon involved at one point, and I recall hearing that it turned out that it was somewhere between grey area and illegal. I don't remember if the balloon was tethered or not.

DW did a televised jump from a tethered hot air balloon, and it was definitely kosher.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Hey if the Pilot knows it is against the law and still agrees to it.. More power to him. But someone trying to slip one past the pilot to get thier jollies is just not cool if thier action could get that pilot in trouble.



I agree - that jumper is an arsehole. But the pilot is still responsible for his/her aircraft. There are also many skydivers out there who do not have any idea of the repercussions of their actions or what the rules are.
Stay Safe - Have Fun - Good Luck

The above could be crap, thought provoking, useful, or . . But not personal. You decide.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

If you jump off a fixed object you have a fixed altitude to work with. So you work with what you have.

But if you jump from aircraft you can usually get enough altitude to make the jump quite a bit safer utilizing a second parachute.

At the risk of applying a personal attack to a number of jumpers, I would have to say that choosing a low altitude and one parachute from an aircraft would be stupid.

I'm guessing a large number of people would feel the same way.



Your logic is there, but there is also a flaw. When someone decides to do a low altitude aircraft jump, well . . . . . . they have decided to do it. Hence just as in the limited altitude BASE jump, they WANT TO exit from a predefined or relatively lower altitude. So going higher actually means that they are not acheiving their objective. They might as well just go and do a skydive!

Am I stupid for doing lower altitude jumps? Perhaps! Am I stupid for getting into an aircraft in the first place? Perhaps! Am I stupid for skydiving? Perhaps! Would "most people" think that I am stupid? Perhaps! But most people do not have any understanding of the systems/procedures/equipment/etc involved in

Regarding your comment on risk, I believe it is actually safer in many respects (for the jumper exiting - not the ones that remain behind) to do a lower altitude aircraft jump than a similar altitude BASE jump. Why? Airspeed on exit allowing the person to fly versus having to allow for correct positioning and momentum on a BASE jump. Generally no need for object avoidance during deployment and canopy flight. On the flip side, their is probably a slightly higher chance of off headings if deploying straight out of the aircraft for the average jumper.

Hence - this is in fact a safer learning environment for people who want to be BASE jumpers. Just as a balloon is a popular learning environment. Just as a bridge makes more sense for a first jump than does other objects, just as . . . . . . . .

But I would also like to back you a bit and say that it is NOT for everyone and should be conducted in a controlled way (i.e filtering crappy jumpers and using mentors/instructors/coaches for the rest).

p.s. Shit time in MO last week. :( I was there 3 years ago. So sad.
Stay Safe - Have Fun - Good Luck

The above could be crap, thought provoking, useful, or . . But not personal. You decide.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Gear needs o be TSO'd. There is no law against it, you just need to get it approved. More than likely that the BASE rig would require a tertiary to be worn prior to gaining approval. Approval takes a lot of work. Most BASE jumpers and skydivers are too lazy to do all that work. :P
Stay Safe - Have Fun - Good Luck

The above could be crap, thought provoking, useful, or . . But not personal. You decide.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Spacy Tracey Walker was involved in TSOing a Perigee Pro in Germany a number of years ago. But then again, the Europeans are more open minded than anglo countries like US and Oz.
Stay Safe - Have Fun - Good Luck

The above could be crap, thought provoking, useful, or . . But not personal. You decide.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

with all due respect, keep the base jumping and skydiving separate.



Yes and no. Coexistence breeds awareness, technology and skill crossover, acceptance by the larger community, etc. It is this narrowminded attitude that shuts down MANY skydiving ops. "Oh, my Llamas/horses/lover don't like the noise from your plane, I don't want you there". DZ gone! Let me give an example of what coexistance does. I competed at World Meet 2003 in France. This event had every event on simultaneously (RW, CRW, S&A, Freeflying, etc). Whilst the World Meet was running 10 Porters, they also had gliding ops, GA training, military ops, etc. NO PROBLEMS. And this is is a mountainous area. Why? Because the people there are fully prepared for each other, full peripheral vision, open minded about other sports, accepting of all their aviation brothers, etc. Why is it in Anglo countries (I am from Oz), that their is disharmony between the various aviation disciplines? Why is it that when I jump at a busy DZ that is marked on the charts, I still see planes flying underneath in freefall? Because of narrowmindedness. "I don't want to share the airspace with you and I do not want to recognise yoru existance. Even if that attitude is detrimental to your safety".

I love both BASE jumping and skydiving and over the years have been very active in both. Each has taught a hell of a lot about the other. This has made me a much better BASE/skydiver than I otherwise would have been. I am very happy for those to co-exist in my life. And I do not really care about separatist attitudes.

Selfishness breeds accidents in both sports. Tunnel vision for landing areas is being selfish (you are not allowing for other airspace users), not being logically open minded is selfish (i.e BASE jumpers learning their skills in a skydiving environment makes them safer), not sharing airspace is selfish (it breeds airspace users that learn in an environment devoid of other users which leads them to become blinkered), etc.

Obviously, too many interactions is not good either and if their is a higher frequency then the controls must be tighter.

Quote

I know base jumping is illigal, I dont think it should be. but skydiving is leagal, and I for one would like it to stay that way.



You do not know. BASE Jumping is not illegal. I won't even bother mentioning all the events around the world and regular jumping locations where the sport/activity is undertaken. SKydiving will always remain legal as it is too big an industry to stop. The only thing that will vary over time will be the level of regulation by the governing aviation and parachuting authorities.

Quote

if you want to base jump a ballon.. fine, wear a single harness duel parachute pack, and just before exit scream an emergency. that should keep things legal...



Now you've given away the secret. They'll put in a rule against that now too. When I really need to save my life from a catastrophic balloon failure, I won't be allowed to. :D

Quote

if you want to be illigal about it, keep it out of skydiving..


Stay Safe - Have Fun - Good Luck

The above could be crap, thought provoking, useful, or . . But not personal. You decide.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

I don't think most BASE jumpers would appreciate a skydiver showing up at one of their sites in the middle of the afternoon and jumping it with a skydiving rig, so why is it ok for a BASE jumper to show up to a skydiving event to try and make a BASE jump?



Your arguing semantics here. It IS dangerous to jump a skydiving canopy in the BASE environment, the reverse is not true. You can jump any functional parachute out of a plane. However, if you are jumping a skydiving rig with a BASE canopy, that is different to some extent and more acceptable. But it depends on the height of the object too. No point bringing a 2 parachute system on a 300 foot jump. But a 3000 footer, it is OK. See, it is not about drawing a line in the stand and then sticking your head under it, both our sports are about risk management and respecting other people. You can crossover.

What would you think about GA schools saying they don't want parachutists on their airport???

p.s. If they are jumping out of an aircraft, it is NOT a BASE jump. It is a skydive.
Stay Safe - Have Fun - Good Luck

The above could be crap, thought provoking, useful, or . . But not personal. You decide.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

but we all agree that jumping a baloon at a skydiving boogie, "with the FAA" present with a "base rig" is stupid.

not for safety reasons, but for many other "PR' type reasons.

it is clear gary has good "PR" with this FAA rep. and im sure it is still good, if not even better.



Political correctness IS an important consideration. I have to agree to some extent to the above. Most jumpers in both activities have no real idea of what goes on behind the scenes.
Stay Safe - Have Fun - Good Luck

The above could be crap, thought provoking, useful, or . . But not personal. You decide.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Seriously. There is positively no reason that I would be unsafe flying my wingsuit off a terminal wall in Norway with my wingsuit skydiving rig and pulling at a suitable altitude (I have over 1000 wingsuit jumps and over 4500 skydives), but I am sure there are a bunch of twits out there that would try and give me at least this much grief if I did it anyway.



Ha ha. This is a troll. That's funny. No reason? :D

refer to the list BY NDG - see number #38.

No matter how many Formula One World Championships you have won, you are still not an astronaught!!!!!!!
Stay Safe - Have Fun - Good Luck

The above could be crap, thought provoking, useful, or . . But not personal. You decide.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I second that. And I would like to go one step further.

I skydive.
I BASE Jump
I fly aricraft.
I fly gliders, paragliders, etc.
I fly in commercial jets.
I take joy flights with whuffo friends.
I like to watch magnificent birds soaring.

It's all good.
They are all special in their own way.

I have focused on CRW and BASE Jumping only because I wanted to be good at a few things, not average at everything (even though I am average at those two :P).

If someone does not like it. I don't care. I always will. I will respect everyone for their participation and love for what they do. Don't hang shit on the other aerial sports. This only shows that you are exactly what you don't like to see in non participating people when they comment on your sport.

r.e. infighting between BASE and skydiving, it is evident in both.

BASE used to be very open minded and many skydivers were against it. Now it is even. There are people in both activities that are strongly opposed to the other. For no good reason. That is their problem as they are missing out. It is OK for a person to choose one and not the other. But it is not OK to hang shit on the other because they are both great sports / activities.


Fly free - physically and mentally.
Stay Safe - Have Fun - Good Luck

The above could be crap, thought provoking, useful, or . . But not personal. You decide.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Your logic is there, but there is also a flaw. When someone decides to do a low altitude aircraft jump, well . . . . . . they have decided to do it. Hence just as in the limited altitude BASE jump, they WANT TO exit from a predefined or relatively lower altitude. So going higher actually means that they are not acheiving their objective. They might as well just go and do a skydive!



Understood. More or less :)
Thanks for the comments.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

You do not know. BASE Jumping is not illegal. I won't even bother mentioning all the events around the world and regular jumping locations where the sport/activity is undertaken. SKydiving will always remain legal as it is too big an industry to stop. The only thing that will vary over time will be the level of regulation by the governing aviation and parachuting authorities.



BASE jumping out of a balloon with the FAA present at the world freefall convention without a TSO'd rig and no reserve, might not be illigal. but it is not Leagal.

never said it wasnt safe, I could care less if it is.
never said it wasdnt fun, could care less if it is.
never siad it wasnt your right.
never said i wouldnt share the airspace.
what i am saying, is a BASE jumper is a PARACHUTIST.

a skydiver is a PARACHUTIST. A BASE jumper is a PARACHUTIST, all the FAA would see in this situation is a PARACUTIST doing something that is against the rules of the FAA. then they could possible bring action against the pilot and even further deem the PARACHUTING dangerous, and a bunch of disrespectfull PARACHUTIST'S, could all loose out because of one PARACHUTIST, doing some cowboy jackass thing just to get his own personal thrill..

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

all the FAA would see in this situation is a PARACUTIST doing something that is against the rules of the FAA. then they could possible bring action against the pilot and even further deem the PARACHUTING dangerous, and a bunch of disrespectfull PARACHUTIST'S, could all loose out because of one PARACHUTIST, doing some cowboy jackass thing just to get his own personal thrill..


true.

the same applies to a non-sober PARACHUTIST. the same applies to a PARACHUTIST violating cloud restrictions. the same applies to a PARACHUTIST who does NOT check for aircraft before jumping. the same applies to a PARACHUTIST that pencil packs.

I could go on. any such event could damage the sport just like the cited example. care to guess which one occurs the least?

you seem to have an inordinate amount of energy to rail against this PARACHUTIST, or you must be one nasty kill-joy!

I'm actually betting your are familiar with some risks, but fear those you do NOT understand. it is all about risk management. we educate students to eliminate fear, in both sports.
DON'T PANIC
The lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.
sloppy habits -> sloppy jumps -> injury or worse

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
when i fear something trust me I will let you know.

I do not fear BASE jumping, but if it makes you feel better to think that go ahead.

I have no desire to BASE jump.

do you have a desire to swoop? you want me to say it? why not? you scared?

now doesn't that sound ridiculous.

I have enough experience to know that I change the things that I can, prevent the things that i can and do not let the things I cannot change/prevent, bring me down.

this situation was something that could have been prevented, and it was..

and to go to your cloud theory. I will not get out into a cloud. not because it isn't legal, or because im SCARED. but because more than likely someone with less experience than me will think it is ok and then do it themselves...

don't preach to me dude,

and yes, i do have a lot of energy. and if the situation demands that i be a kill joy, then so be it. it is better than having my joy killed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
> It IS dangerous to jump a skydiving canopy in the BASE environment,
>the reverse is not true. You can jump any functional parachute out of a plane.

Right, but no one's talking about the canopy. No one would have blinked an eye if he put a Mojo in a Vector and was planning to jump it. The issue is that if he's jumping a Perigee, the pilot can get screwed. If he's jumping a Vector he won't.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

when i fear something trust me I will let you know.

I do not fear BASE jumping, but if it makes you feel better to think that go ahead.

I have no desire to BASE jump.

do you have a desire to swoop? you want me to say it? why not? you scared?

now doesn't that sound ridiculous.

I have enough experience to know that I change the things that I can, prevent the things that i can and do not let the things I cannot change/prevent, bring me down.

this situation was something that could have been prevented, and it was..

and to go to your cloud theory. I will not get out into a cloud. not because it isn't legal, or because im SCARED. but because more than likely someone with less experience than me will think it is ok and then do it themselves...


as I load my skydiving canopy around 1.8, I'd say I swoop. but that is off track.

I'll put the dots a bit closer regarding risk management and the fear of the unknown. I was discussing the fear of the ramifications of violating THAT particular FAR. I did not mean the fear of participating in said activity.

if that is the only FAR that you energetically defend, then you might be a hypocrite.

if you defend ALL FARs that energetically, then you are one brave (and mostly likely, lonely) soul.

oh, and factual point:
remember, the incident was PREVENTED by being unprepared. the prevention occured before the intervention.
DON'T PANIC
The lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.
sloppy habits -> sloppy jumps -> injury or worse

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Quote

oh, and factual point:
remember, the incident was PREVENTED by being unprepared. the prevention occured before the intervention.




so you were there? you know what prevented this for a fact??

ohh, my bad.:S



According to what Peek wrote - yes it is true.

When the ballons were almost inflated some of the jumpers were calling to a guy over on the ramp who was packing a BASE rig and who was not ready.

Matt

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote



if that is the only FAR that you energetically defend, then you might be a hypocrite.

if you defend ALL FARs that energetically, then you are one brave (and mostly likely, lonely) soul.



This statement sums up my feelings perfectly.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Quote

Seriously. There is positively no reason that I would be unsafe flying my wingsuit off a terminal wall in Norway with my wingsuit skydiving rig and pulling at a suitable altitude (I have over 1000 wingsuit jumps and over 4500 skydives), but I am sure there are a bunch of twits out there that would try and give me at least this much grief if I did it anyway.



Ha ha. This is a troll. That's funny. No reason? :D



You thought that was a troll? You obviously have no idea who I am or what my capabilities are. I was dead serious in the context of my response. Some of you guys slay me, but that's besides the point.

Chuck.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

When the ballons were almost inflated some of the jumpers were calling to a guy over on the ramp who was packing a BASE rig and who was not ready.



so im guessing he was in a hurry to pack a BASE rig and to jump low out of a ballon...

what exactly is your point?

he was trying to hurry, to get on an illigal jump. and going to get out low.

could have been bad.....

might not have been, we will never know.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

2 2