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one more Icon malfunction

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On 2/1/2022 at 2:26 PM, glh said:

… Would probably work like it is supposed too with out extra items that don't belong inside!

 

Based on other videos and testing done by FPF and Aerodyne, it might have same result without leaving tools in the container.

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20 hours ago, BMAC615 said:

Based on other videos and testing done by FPF and Aerodyne, it might have same result without leaving tools in the container.

You leave something in my reseve  packjob that doesn't belong and If i survive there is going to more than just a discussion about what happened

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33 minutes ago, glh said:

You leave something in my reseve  packjob that doesn't belong and If i survive there is going to more than just a discussion about what happened

Of course it is clear what that slotted plate is.  They were likely doing a lot of tests, with a lot of re-closing of the container.  If in the rush to do many tests the mistake of leaving the plate was made, it should be admitted instead of silence we've had since that video was released.  I do understand now that the plate is likely not relevant to the situation, as certainly we can all see there's more to this than just a couple guys setting up a failure on purpose or by neglect.  Again, it would be nice if the plate would be acknowledged, but I no longer think it matters.

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36 minutes ago, rem said:

there's definitely NOT a plate, just paper-rig...

like :

 

IMG_2450[1].JPG

nope.  that was not paper or cardboard, unless it makes a clacking sound when it drops, and doesn't flutter or hesitate at all.  video a drop of that tag and show what it looks and sounds like.  that tag in the picture is most certainly cardboard based on the visible corner dogear.

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On 2/3/2022 at 3:40 PM, glh said:

You leave something in my reseve  packjob that doesn't belong and If i survive there is going to more than just a discussion about what happened

There are other videos and testing by FPF and Aerodyne that replicate reserve hesitation/lock without a plate left in.

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On 2/4/2022 at 1:12 PM, sfzombie13 said:

nope.  that was not paper or cardboard, unless it makes a clacking sound when it drops, and doesn't flutter or hesitate at all.  video a drop of that tag and show what it looks and sounds like.  that tag in the picture is most certainly cardboard based on the visible corner dogear.

Actually I believe that it was indeed the rig paperwork. In France they have 4 different documents Harness, reserve, main and AAD. Plus the eventual works report, AAD service paper, insurance, license. Often the jumpers keep the paperwork in a plastic envelope. On the video, it looks like the whole booklet. 

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it may have been the whole booklet if it was in plastic, but when zoomed in it looks a lot like it has a small slice in it like a tool, but it is really hard to tell and it doesn't matter much i guess.  not the first time i made a mistake.

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On 2/4/2022 at 1:12 PM, sfzombie13 said:

nope.  that was not paper or cardboard, unless it makes a clacking sound when it drops, and doesn't flutter or hesitate at all.  video a drop of that tag and show what it looks and sounds like.  that tag in the picture is most certainly cardboard based on the visible corner dogear.

sfzombie13 is correct.

I spoke with the rigger Raphael Plantin in Saumur, he forgot the 4 documents in their plastic cardboard that he had slipped in between the reserve flaps, which made this sound when hitting the ground.

Now ,all folks who spend their energy wondering what fell out of that rig, would have better ask Aerodyne what corrective action are they going to take to make their rig working properly?

once every 10 days in this repack cycle perio, riggers report to me a malfunction in the Icon reserve opening.
This rig will soon be grounded in France, which does not mean that it will work better abroad; like the virus it crosses borders.

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2 hours ago, skyderrill66 said:

USPA does not have the authority todo anything only the FAA has the authority.

i would have to respectfully disagree.  they may not be able to enforce any action but they can damned well make something happen, and if they can't ensure the safety of jumpers, why bother having it around?  seems to me like there was a liaison i heard of with uspa and faa, someone who had our interests in mind, or something to that effect that i recall hearing about.  been a while ago, so maybe not, but there should be.

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(edited)
3 hours ago, sfzombie13 said:

i would have to respectfully disagree.  they may not be able to enforce any action but they can damned well make something happen, and if they can't ensure the safety of jumpers, why bother having it around?  seems to me like there was a liaison i heard of with uspa and faa, someone who had our interests in mind, or something to that effect that i recall hearing about.  been a while ago, so maybe not, but there should be.

Hi 13,

IMO while there is little the USPA can do regarding any product that has TSO-certification, they can ban it at their events.  They did this back in the 70's with the Blast Handle reserve ripcord.  They banned the use of any rig with this item at the US Nationals.

The resultant effect was that all mfr's immediately changed the reserve ripcord handles that they were supplying.

Jerry Baumchen

PS)  This photo shows one of the problems with the blast handle:

3-way-2.jpg.4673ad2a6e33fae7f7a351b34426df25.jpg

Edited by JerryBaumchen

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14 hours ago, eric.fradet said:

This rig will soon be grounded in France

As discussed earlier in the thread, a smaller pilot chute cap is a proven countermeasure for small rigs with fully enclosed pc.  Do you know if that or other changes are being considered?

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5 hours ago, sundevil777 said:

As discussed earlier in the thread, a smaller pilot chute cap is a proven countermeasure for small rigs with fully enclosed pc.  Do you know if that or other changes are being considered?

Hi Cliff,

For just some info:  The Icon uses the RW-37 spring by DieMatic Products, Inc., 130 Express Street, Plainview, NY  11803, 516-433-7900

This p/c is also used by VSE, UPT and AeroSports USA.  For all four rigs it is used in an 'upside down' orientation; when compared to the orientation of the spring in an MA-1 p/c.

The RW-37 spring has one end of the wire of the p/c circled into a 6" diameter circle & the other end of the wire circled into a 3" diameter circle, at the top end.  This would easily allow for a slightly smaller p/c cap.

Jerry Baumchen

 

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mmm sub optimal it seems

I would like to see it deployed with the leg and chest  straps done up and normal tension on the harness as it would have been designed for.  Very few reserves are deployed without a secured harness ,  at least not more than once.

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On 2/9/2022 at 11:00 AM, skyderrill66 said:

USPA does not have the authority todo anything only the FAA has the authority.

The USPA can:

1. Try to reproduce the French results.

2. Advocate with the FAA on behalf of skydivers. FAA is perfectly capable of bringing ADs for skydiving rigs.

3. Disseminate knowledge to skydivers via those nice emails and magazine.

4. Suspend use of the rig at USPA events or dropzones.

5. Be a bridge between the skydivers and the manufacturer to facilitate the flow of information.

Just some ideas about how USPA BOD could be non-useless in this situation :)

 

 

 

 

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While I agree with most of what Jerry Baumchen said vis a vis FAA, USPA, AD, etc. we do not share the same confidence in the written law.

May I suggest that it would be un-wise to involve the FAA in this alleged problem. Perhaps this is more of an issue for the Parachute Industry Association.

USPA had a confused response to all the problems with blast handles and plastic ripcord handles. USPA banned USAF anti-wind, blast handles, then mysteriously dropped the ban a few years later. They dropped the ban because blast handles had disappeared from USPA DZs ... BECAUSE ... USPA decided to no longer clutter BSRs with a ban on a piece of hardware that had disappeared.

Please note that I am referring to the thin, white plastic handles made by Strong Enterprises during the late 1970s. While the thicker and stronger fiberglass-filled handles were also banned by CSPA (circa 1985) I never saw a cracked fiberglass handle.

The last time I saw a plastic ripcord handle was in France, circa 1987 when I mentioned it to the DZO, he had not heard of USPA's or CSPA's bans on plastic ripcord handles. The handle in question was cracked bad enough that I could have easily broken it with my bare hands. 

As an side, it is rumored that United Parachute Technologies has already introduced a reserve pilot-chute - with a smaller cap - for the smallest variants of Vector 2 Micron. Will some-one from the Vector factory please confirm this rumor??????

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16 minutes ago, riggerrob said:

As an side, it is rumored that United Parachute Technologies has already introduced a reserve pilot-chute - with a smaller cap - for the smallest variants of Vector 2 Micron. Will some-one from the Vector factory please confirm this rumor??????

Of course I am not from UPT, but I know this to be true.

From page 18 of the current manual:

Vector 3 springloaded pilot chute:
o V326V397 container size use P/N: 022001000
o V300V320 container size use P/N: 022001001

From page 39:

WARNING
If you are packing the V300 container size, check pilot chute compatibility. This container must ONLY use
Reserve Pilot Chute P/N 022001001 which is easily identified by the RED cap. The part number is also
located on the envelope stamp. The V300 container incorporates a warning label on the underside of the
center flap which is also RED to correspond with the top of the pilot chute.

NOTE
V303V397 container size s are compatible with both Reserve Pilot Chutes manufactured by UPT.

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