one more Icon malfunction

[carrier louis paul 0]

no comment

[DougH 270]

Why would you have no comment. Was the reserve and main within Aerodyne's sizing recommendations? Was the reserve loop the appropriate length?

This video with no comment is less than helpful, unless the purposes is mud slinging.  

[JerryBaumchen 1,261]

52 minutes ago, carrier louis paul said:

no comment

Hi Mods,

This is getting a little tiresome.

Maybe a time-out might be appropriate?

Jerry Baumchen

PS)  And, yes, a no comment post should be removed.

[carrier louis paul 0]

6 hours ago, JerryBaumchen said:

Hi Mods,

This is getting a little tiresome.

Maybe a time-out might be appropriate?

Jerry Baumchen

PS)  And, yes, a no comment post should be removed.

Icon I2 smart LPV 120 reserve loop correct length, if there was a video it is because we suspected this type of rig does not open correctly

[Baksteen 84]

I can't be bothered to watch the video.

Does this Icon also come with unidentified metal bits falling out after the hesititation - like in the last video your crew posted?

[BIGUN 1,230]

7 hours ago, carrier louis paul said:

we suspected this type of rig does not open correctly

Of course you did.

[wmw999 2,311]

Without additional information, this is just another case of "they hate the Icon and look for errors." Even if it's valid, why do Icons only seem to have these issues in France? Additional information would include things like when and how it was packed, what's inside, etc.

Wendy P.

[DougH 270]

35 minutes ago, wmw999 said:

 Even if it's valid, why do Icons only seem to have these issues in France? 

Wendy P.

Better question. Why does this only seem to happen to Icons, in France, at this specific loft? That would lead me to believe that someone needs to have their packing investigated. 

[carrier louis paul 0]

1 hour ago, DougH said:

Better question. Why does this only seem to happen to Icons, in France, at this specific loft? That would lead me to believe that someone needs to have their packing investigated. 

in fact, it is only in France what rigging issues are directed to someone else than manufacturers, in the states and rest of the world, if you have a rigging problem FAA send you to the manufacturer whatever it is, so it never comes up, previous case with total malfunction was with the Vector SE in january, but at the end there was a real issue with Vector SE, we can believe it will be the same with Icon rigs, specially the small ones 

[skydiverek 60]

 

@carrier louis paul: what was this additional small part that fell out from the rig (in one of your previous videos linked below)?:

https://www.dropzone.com/forums/topic/272799-icon-total-malfunction/?do=findComment&comment=4949785

 

Edited November 18, 2021 by skydiverek

[MickPatch 52]

I don't have a dog in this fight but...

I think the OP does his POV no service by his approach to communication, that may well be just language or culture related.

The "counter position" on show is equally disengenuous seeming to want to "shout down" the topic.

I am genuinely interested in this "story". If there is a genuine problen here it needs to be investigated properly.  We all need to know that when we need that reserve it will deploy. *

Having said all that without the supporting data as to who the OP is, where they operate from and whether there is any conflict of interest at play, either by the OP or counter positions, the subject will never be taken on face value.

* we make that assumption everytime we jump. In the 2 occasions I have had to carry out my malfunction drills all has been well (not Icon). On the weekend of my last malfunction we had a fatality where the drills were carried out but the Pilot failed to deploy properly (not Icon).

 

[billvon 2,723]

2 hours ago, carrier louis paul said:

in fact, it is only in France what rigging issues are directed to someone else than manufacturers, in the states and rest of the world, if you have a rigging problem FAA send you to the manufacturer whatever it is, so it never comes up, previous case with total malfunction was with the Vector SE in january, but at the end there was a real issue with Vector SE, we can believe it will be the same with Icon rigs, specially the small ones 

Right.  But here we have a case of a single system (Icon) having a problem at a single loft (the one in the video.)  In addition, we have seen the problem of unidentified pieces falling out of the container during opening, generally indicating a rigging problem rather than a design problem.

In the US we had some problems with Racers along similar lines.  It wasn't one loft but it was a small number of them who had serious problems getting them packed and functional.  This was generally traced to the fact that Racers are packed differently than many other rigs out there, and riggers were just plain making mistakes.  The training was out there - Jump Shack did a "how to pack a Racer" course at pretty much every PIA show there was, and the training was readily available both in the manual and on line.

Was that the fault of the Racer or the rigger?  The riggers involved insisted it was Jump Shack's fault.  Jump Shack (John and Nancy primarily) insisted it was the rigger's fault.  Racers certainly CAN be packed and operated safely, and have been used for decades.  So who was at at fault there?

Sounds like there may be a similar issue here.

[sundevil777 98]

The "unidentified" object looked to clearly be the type of packing aide-plate with a slot for the closing loop.  For a long time it has been called unidentified, but isn't it obvious?

[chuckakers 414]

15 hours ago, sundevil777 said:

The "unidentified" object looked to clearly be the type of packing aide-plate with a slot for the closing loop.  For a long time it has been called unidentified, but isn't it obvious?

Looks like to me as well. What the hell was it doing in the pack?

[wmw999 2,311]

On 11/18/2021 at 11:12 AM, MickPatch said:

I don't have a dog in this fight but...

I think the OP does his POV no service by his approach to communication, that may well be just language or culture related.

The "counter position" on show is equally disengenuous seeming to want to "shout down" the topic.

I am genuinely interested in this "story". If there is a genuine problen here it needs to be investigated properly.  We all need to know that when we need that reserve it will deploy. *

Having said all that without the supporting data as to who the OP is, where they operate from and whether there is any conflict of interest at play, either by the OP or counter positions, the subject will never be taken on face value.

* we make that assumption everytime we jump. In the 2 occasions I have had to carry out my malfunction drills all has been well (not Icon). On the weekend of my last malfunction we had a fatality where the drills were carried out but the Pilot failed to deploy properly (not Icon).

 

What he said. Gear is important, but data transparency, when you're talking about gear, is incredibly important. I understand that there are reasons for the automatic dislike of Icon among some French; however, when it looks like it's coloring your ability to be honest about the gear (even if it isn't), it devalues what you say.

In a scientific experiment, being able to replicate it independently is the gold standard. This applies here, too.

Wendy P.

[carrier louis paul 0]

36 minutes ago, wmw999 said:

If there is a genuine problen here it needs to be investigated properly.  We all need to know that when we need that reserve it will deploy.

it looks what there was so many Icon reserve malfunction found on the ground, what French Civilian Agency is going to ground the majority of Icon in France and will ask FAA to do the same...we do not just anymore speak about bashing like some stupid folks  have claimed we do

[chuckakers 414]

19 minutes ago, carrier louis paul said:

it looks what there was so many Icon reserve malfunction found on the ground, what French Civilian Agency is going to ground the majority of Icon in France and will ask FAA to do the same...

What is your source for that information and when is the grounding supposed to happen?

[arnaud_ 0]

1 hour ago, chuckakers said:

What is your source for that information and when is the grounding supposed to happen?

https://documentation.osac.aero/view/291061

It's done right now ...

In France, any jump with the cutter positioned below the extractor is prohibited.

 

CN F-2021-003 PARACHUTE Aerodyne ICON-1.pdf

Edited November 19, 2021 by arnaud_

[sfzombie13 319]

so, there was all kinds of information available and the only way to present it was through two poorly composed forum posts and this many comments before it came to light?  that would have been some good information to lead with to convince people there was a problem.  keep that in mind next time maybe.  or not, your call.

[skydiverek 60]

@carrier louis paul

Your videos show the manual activation of the reserve.

The French Bulletin talks about the cutter relocation.

Can you explain the connection between the two?

[pchapman 275]

I'm confused by the documents out there.

The new French document (F-2021-003) says that jumps with a cutter below the reserve pilot chute (the 'extractor' to literally translate the French) is not permitted. And that's what Arnaud above says.

But, the title block in that document says that the bulletin applies to Aerodyne Icons, and that it is only Aerodyne they are talking to. 

So is the cutter position thing for all rigs or just all Icons?

But if it is all rigs, does that also temporarily ground Racers & Teardrops & Javelins & Wings etc?

But if it is just for Icons .... I thought Icons in France already had a mandatory change of cutter location from the kicker flap to the side flap, above the pilot chute. That was noted in the 2008 SB210108 from Aerodyne, which made it optional in general but said it had been made Mandatory in France by the French authorities. (And I guess all subsequent Icons have had the cutter built into a side flap. ) So in this case, has anything changed at all?

Here's a Google translate of part of the new French document, with a few mods of mine for the worst bits of translation:

Quote

REASONS

Following cases of failure to open an emergency container encountered during the annual [packing], opening tests were carried out by the technical directorate of the General Directorate of Armaments.

The full exploitation of the results of these tests, in conjunction with the manufacturer AERODYNE, is still in [progress].

It is, however, already established that a significant percentage of test cases carried out on parachutes for which the [cutter] is positioned below the [reserve pilot chute] led to a failure to open.

Pending the completion of the full exploitation of the test results, this [airworthiness bulletin] imposes the immediate ban on jumps with an emergency container [where the cutter] is positioned below the [reserve pilot chute].

This doesn't really clarify if it was regular manual pulls on the ground that were failing, and then the tests were done on manual and/or cutter activation, or what exactly was tested. (Similar to what Skydiverek was wondering.) 

[arnaud_ 0]

1 hour ago, pchapman said:

. I thought Icons in France already had a mandatory change of cutter location from the kicker flap to the side flap, above the pilot chute.

are you sure it was mandatory ?

[pchapman 275]

3 hours ago, arnaud_ said:

are you sure it was mandatory ?

The 2008 Aerodyne bulletin stated that the French parachuting federation made it mandatory for AAD cutters on rigs to be above the pilot chute.

But I don't actually know the current situation in France -- what might have changed since then, what exceptions there might be, etc.

So I am interested in hearing more about this whole situation and what the opinions are in France...

(Edit: Also interesting is that this new bulletin is from the civil aviation authorities, rather than the parachuting federation. Like something from the FAA rather than the USPA.)

Edited November 20, 2021 by pchapman

[carrier louis paul 0]

10 hours ago, skydiverek said:

@carrier louis paul

Your videos show the manual activation of the reserve.

The French Bulletin talks about the cutter relocation.

Can you explain the connection between the two?

you are correct, there are two separate issues :

1) all Icon any sizes do not work properly with cutter location underneath the reserve pilot chute

the French Bulletin fix that

2) some Icon small sizes (specially Icon I1, I2, I3) do not work properly by manual activation

it will be a subject to be treated in the coming weeks (months) by Eric Fradet , the technician in charge of gear equipment , the French FAA and the manufacturer

and to pchapman : Yes from 2008 up to 2020 it was mandatory in France on Icon rigs to have the cutter location underneath Reserve pilot chute, end of 2020 under request of Aerodyne , French Federation did accept to change that, it looks it was a mistake :

https://www.ffp.asso.fr/cs-198-2020-position-du-sectionneur-sur-les-sac-harnais-icon/    

[sundevil777 98]

On 11/19/2021 at 10:13 AM, chuckakers said:

Looks like to me as well. What the hell was it doing in the pack?

Whether accidental or intentional, it hasn't been explained, and is important.

Edited November 20, 2021 by sundevil777