More mass shootings

[ryoder 1,387]

normiss

NO reason a citizen should have access to military type weapons period.

Semi-autos with bump stocks: http://dailycaller.com/2017/10/03/the-vegas-shooter-had-two-bump-stocks-in-his-room-heres-what-that-means/

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[gowlerk 1,914]

Quote

I think you will find as things come out that he was politically motivated.

Maybe not. It's had to imagine he would not leave something behind about it if he was. Charles Whitman was not and did not. He may have just simply wanted to go out with a bang. And he had the resources to do so.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[Lawndarter 3]

RiggerLee

Human society.

At best you mean American society, this doesn't happen anywhere else in the civilized world.

RiggerLee

I think you will find as things come out that he was politically motivated.

No evidence of that, yet anyhow. Normally that kind of thing becomes evident quickly.

RiggerLee

People talk about means, motive, and opportunity.

Yes - means like a saturation with guns and no means of keeping out of the hands of madmen.

RiggerLee

The country is full of soft targets short of a fundamental change in our culture I don't think you could remove opportunity. No more crowds at sporting events, all broadcast. No more concerts. Mo more centralized malls. I mean is that a world that you would want to live in?

No. People want to live in a country where gun violence is not so routine that it barely makes them bat an eye.

RiggerLee

People think they want to attack means. That if you could take away the means that this problem would go away. First there is the fallisy that you can take away the means. The idea that you could ever get rid of guns. France has some of the strictest gun laws around and the people there had no problem getting AK's for the attacks there.

France has far less mass shootings than America, and far less gun violence. All of Europe does. Non sequitur.

RiggerLee

Look at how many people were slaughtered at that concert.

The stats are nothing compared to what happens every day in America.

RiggerLee

That's in a country where there is absolutely no way for a person to own an AK. And contrary to popular beleafe it's not hard to build a gun. The 3D printed things are silly because the people doing them are idiots. Most of the parts are available off the shelf. There is no need to try to print a barrel. And Metal printing is coming. We are looking at a system right not. And that assumes that removing guns from our society would stop this. If he's filled a small plane, he was a pilot, with a small bomb and improvised napalm he would have done even more damage. And that's not even being creative. The use of guns is a result of the media attention that has been devoted to shootings. The Boston bombers didn't use their guns in the attack.

This is all a giant misdirection. And the Boston Marathon bombing was a shocking, single event. Over 32,000 Americans per year are killed by guns. Hell, America flips out about terrorism, but had to have rejoiced when the Pulse Nightclub massacre happened, because finally there was a year they could say that more Americans were killed by terrorism than by toddlers with guns!

RiggerLee

Their is no practical way to stop people from doing hard if they are intent on killing people and not concerned with their own survival. Motivation is the most elusive leg you could attack. I do think that it is an indicator of the health of the society. I think it's a product of detachment, of divisiveness, and the stardom created by the media. I don't think these things will end till the society as a whole heals it self.

It's a whole lot harder for them to kill people in minutes if they don't have the ability to stockpile guns and ammunition with no scrutiny or oversight.

There's a reason that this only happens in America with such regularity.

And while everyone looked in horror at Las Vegas, how many Americans were killed by guns that day elsewhere? Statistics would suggest a lot. And they don't even make the news. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2017/10/03/here-are-all-the-other-fatal-shootings-from-sunday-that-you-havent-heard-about-yet/?tid=sm_fb&utm_term=.5875a1b9f01e - 24 fatal shootings.

[normiss 622]

Yup. I thought while the purchase of the bump stock products is legal, the modification of the weapon to that style was not, but maybe it's a state thing.
Either way, I've still come to the conclusion ordinary citizens should not have access to them, much less insane citizens.

Bear in mind that a Kinder Egg is a chocolate egg with a toy that's illegal in the U.S. yet high-powered automatic rifles are not.

[wolfriverjoe 1,341]

normiss

Yup. I thought while the purchase of the bump stock products is legal, the modification of the weapon to that style was not, but maybe it's a state thing.
Either way, I've still come to the conclusion ordinary citizens should not have access to them, much less insane citizens.

Bear in mind that a Kinder Egg is a chocolate egg with a toy that's illegal in the U.S. yet high-powered automatic rifles are not.

Technically, the "Bump Stock" is a semi auto. The thing just allows the recoil of the gun to be directed to pull the trigger rapidly.

The problem with "ordinary civilians should not have access to those kind of guns" becomes "what exactly is that kind of gun.

Black?
Resembles a military rifle? (an AR-15 is not and never was a "Military Gun").
Has things like a pistol grip or a bayonet lug?
Has magazines that hold a lot of rounds available for it?

Where do you draw the line?

And there are very few military rifles that meet the common definition of "High Powered". They are actually mid to low powered rifle cartridges. In part because they don't generate as much recoil and shooting rapidly is a lot easier.

And "automatic" rifles are really hard to get.

And despite what Hollywood and the media like to say, converting a semi auto to full auto is not an easy process.

How many of the "mass shootings" involve full auto weapons? How many crimes in total involve full auto (legal or illegal)?

There was a comment about this a page or so back about "drop in" auto sears. They exist, but the vast majority are 'registered' with the ATF as a "class 3" item. They really don't "just drop in". A lot of other parts also need to be obtained and installed. And most of them don't work all that well.

One more time. Short of machinist and gunsmith tools and skills, converting a semi auto firearm to full auto is a difficult task.

I would really like to know details on the gun used in Las Vegas.
Some reports are illegally converted, some are that he had several rifles with bump stocks. Nothing for certain yet, though.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[normiss 622]

Technically, more Americans have been killed by gunfire on US soil that those killed in all wars in history.

THAT kind of a gun that allows you to kill so many people at once. No concern what it looks like nor what you name it.
We need better control on access to guns, period.

It's disappointing that we can react with outrage regarding minuscule voter "fraud" with new laws and empowered panels to investigate and change laws, or as a nation become more concerned with non-violent protests, or outlaw toy weapons in Las Vegas, but yet provide access to weapons enabling mass killings of humans, as if it's no big deal.
We have become retards over access to weapons that kill far more of us than any radical islamist ever will.
No biggie, murdering humans is cool in America, including children, shoppers, runners, people attending concerts, military installations, colleges, oh, and people of faith. Barely even makes news. Yawn.
Makes you want to go out for the night and relax!

[RMK 3]

Here are some numbers:

The United States has more guns than any other country (300 million+) and more guns per person (9 guns for every 10 people). It also has the highest firearm homicide rate in the developed world (and the highest rate of unintentional firearm deaths.)

Regarding "Freedom"
196 number of countries of which;
125 are electoral democracies
86 are free
3 have a constitutional right to bear arms

While I'm at it:
38 have red, white & blue flags

"Pain is the best instructor, but no one wants to attend his classes"

[billvon 2,400]

>I think there is an argument that we are raising generations of sociopaths that are
>disconnected from their actions. And then look at the division in our country.

It's strange that people think that today there are these horrible divisions in our country, not like the old days. Go back 60-70 years and you had blacks who were literally second class citizens; they couldn't marry whites, they couldn't go to the same schools, couldn't use the same bathrooms etc. Go back further than that and you could own them.

Or go back to the 1950's and consider what McCarthy was doing - blacklisting anyone suspected of being an evil communist. Oppenheimer, the scientist who gave the US the atomic bomb, was blacklisted (and fired, and denied security clearances) because he wasn't American enough.

Or go back even 20 years and you could be arrested for being gay.

All of that is worse - and more divisive - than someone calling white supremacists Nazis.

>Their is no practical way to stop people from doing hard if they are intent on killing
>people and not concerned with their own survival.

You cannot stop them 100%. You can merely reduce the odds.

When pilots first started flying passengers (and killing them when they screwed up) we are all very fortunate that the conclusion was not "there is no practical way to stop pilots from screwing up because everyone screws up sometimes." We added fuel gauges and stall warning systems and radar altimeters. We made better attitude indicators and came up with ways to train pilots to fly in clouds. We learned how to make more reliable engines. We came up with GPWS, and TCAS, and CVR's and FDR's. And all that made flying safer.

Did it end deaths due to pilot error? No. But it made the results of those errors much more identifiable, fixable and avoidable.

Will new laws about gun ownership solve the problem of gun violence? No. But it can reduce the death toll somewhat - and that's a worthy goal.

[Phil1111 911]

First pictures have been released of two guns likely used by the Vegas gunman.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-41487593

The Weapon in the left photo appears to be a AR variant with a scope and bipod.

The one in the right photo is a AR-15 variant with a a 100 round capacity surefire brand magazine in it.

[Stumpy 256]

Phil1111

First pictures have been released of two guns likely used by the Vegas gunman.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-41487593

The Weapon in the left photo appears to be a AR variant with a scope and bipod.

The one in the right photo is a AR-15 variant with a a 100 round capacity surefire brand magazine in it.

The one on the right looks to have a bump stock, couldn't tell on the other one from the photo?

Never try to eat more than you can lift

[tkhayes 126]

the only confirmed photo of Mr Paddock outside of the hotel at a protest. Can't you see the resemblance? REAL news!!

[Phil1111 911]

No,not the one on the right. There is allot of BS online about "bump stocks" . It has some high end (expensive) add on parts.The one in the left picture I don't know. The disadvantage of bump stocks is you can't control the trigger, firing rate, like a regular stock/trigger combo.

Without going too deep into it because I don't believe in educating the stupid. Not referring to you or anyone else that regularly reads this column.

This is the search that came up on google for "ar-15 drop in auto sear".
https://www.google.ca/search?q=ar-15+drop+in+auto+sear&dcr=0&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi4pJy0n9XWAhWm8oMKHaCTBjcQsAQIJw&biw=1237&bih=791#imgrc=8q_bI689lTUShM:
The whole page is filled with schematics and info on how to do it. Its easy. Bump stocks may be quicker to utilize, but the first image its hard to tell. The second does not.

The website Ar-15.com is filled with discussions skirting on the edge of the law. With regards to all of this stuff. Mostly young kids and SEAL wannabes.

[yoink 321]

RiggerLee

I think you will find as things come out that he was politically motivated.

Who cares WHY he did it?

Remove the ability to do anything about it and the motive is completely moot. And that solution works for the motive of almost every future mass-shooter too. They could be angry for a million different reasons but if (in a simulated world) they couldn't get their hands on a gun, then they couldn't go out and shoot someone.

So you'll say 'but they'll find another way to do it'...
Maybe. I've not seen the data to prove that yet and it's certainly a damn sight more difficult to kill multitudes of people in very small amounts of time with improvised weapons compared to things designed to do exactly that...

Trying to fix the motive means you need to put a different fix in place every time this happens. And again, this is statistically likely to happen today. And tomorrow. And the next day... It's insane.

[kallend 1,625]

Phil1111

First pictures have been released of two guns likely used by the Vegas gunman.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-41487593

The Weapon in the left photo appears to be a AR variant with a scope and bipod.

The one in the right photo is a AR-15 variant with a a 100 round capacity surefire brand magazine in it.

Well, OBVIOUSLY a 100 round magazine is necessary for hunting and for home defense. Goes without saying.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[yoink 321]

We need to be careful about stuff like this.

It's easy to point out something discrete like the magazine or the bump stock which could have a specific and limited law placed against it. But the reality is that the scope of destruction between a 100 round magazine and 2x50 round magazines isn't much different... It would be the equivalent of a band-aid on an arterial wound. Sure, it might make you feel better about doing something, but basically you've just wasted time and effort in getting it done.

Not only that, but you've now pissed off the gun rights advocates in passing any gun control law for very limited results, so the chance of any further limitations would be non-existent.

Any action taken needs to be well thought out, strategic and bipartisan - not just hammering something (anything) through the legislative process just in order to say that something has been done.

The first step is for people on both sides to agree that there is some sort of problem - Without that absolutely nothing can happen. The next step can be to define the scope of the issue.

[RiggerLee 61]

Some statistics.

In 2010, 67% of all homicides in the U.S. were committed using a firearm.[7] In 2012, there were 8,855 total firearm-related homicides in the US, with 6,371 of those attributed to handguns.[8] In 2012, 64% of all gun-related deaths in the U.S. were suicides.[9] In 2010, there were 19,392 firearm-related suicides, and 11,078 firearm-related homicides in the U.S.[10] In 2010, 358 murders were reported involving a rifle while 6,009 were reported involving a handgun; another 1,939 were reported with an unspecified type of firearm.[11]

graph:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_violence_in_the_United_States#/media/File:Ushomicidesbyweapon.svg

So yes people die with guns. Of that number approximately 2/3 of them are suicide. One third of that number are some form of homicide. "No person should be able to have these style weapons." Meaning any thing that is black and looks scary, note that they actually are not military or "assault weapons". How ever the vast majority of homicides in fact do not involve rifles or "assault weapons" of any kind, they are in fact committed with ordinary hand guns. Statistically, hardly any one is killed with an "assault weapon". If you were to remove all "assault wepions" from the country it would hardly change the statistics at all. And of all those deaths the majority of them, 2/3, are suicide. Tragic but I contend that the use of a gun was mearly convince. I think that points to the societal ills that I referred to.

At this point you need to define the conversation. Are you talking about mass shootings? Or are we talking about gun deaths. You really can't use statistics from one to argue the other. These "assault weapons" are so evil, we must ban then because there are 33,000 thousand gun deaths a year. Despite the tragedy that just happened, the truth is that "assault weapons" are not used in most homicides. So the number of 33,000 two thirds of those being suicide, has no relevance to a conversation about mass shootings.

Mass shooting out side the US. The US has a lot of guns. Probable more percapita then any other country in the world. We've been using France as an example. Well France is about the size of Texas and we have as many guns per person as any one in the country. I think Wyoming might have us beat but I'd have to check. They're good people up there. But lets take Texas. How many deaths have there been in mass shootings in Texas, in say the last five years, in comparison to France? I'm counting, I come up with 2 events in the last 5 years, totaling 8 persons killed, not counting the gun man. So let's go back 10 years. So now we include the Fort Hood shooting where 13 died. Now we're up to 21 over 10 years. How many people have been killed in France in the last 10 years.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_massacres_in_France

There's a list. Not all with guns you have to read through it. And yes there are some horrendous spikes in that time frame like the massacre in the theater. But that's not the only one. Ok, so if you want to talk the whole US then it's only fair to look at... say all of Europe.

Found a list for the US I'm not sure they all count but in the last 10 years I come up with a grand total of... 317 people killed in mass shooting in the last ten years

http://timelines.latimes.com/deadliest-shooting-rampages/

I come up with 240 just in France. Can't find as good a list for all Europe.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_shooting#Europe

You have to go through and reed about some of them. Norway was nasty. And this is in countries with some of the strictest gun laws in the world.

Sorry I've been digging all through this as I tried to type. Not quite as coherent as I'd hoped but the point is that this is a universal problem and it's a relatively new problem. These events were not as common in the past and guns were even more common and accepted then. I remember when every truck had a gun rack. Don't see those much any more. They get stolen.

Too much typing.

Lee

Lee
[email protected]
www.velocitysportswear.com

[wmw999 2,123]

You're trying to use the data to prove a point. Sometimes the data drives you somewhere you don't want to go. Intellectual honesty is admitting that the data should drive the conclusion, rather than the goal driving the data selection.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[gowlerk 1,914]

The only way that American gun laws are going to change is if what the 2nd Amendment was written for comes to pass. As in, if the people start rising up and shooting those in power to attempt an armed resurrection. In that case the 2nd will get dumped so fast your heads will all spin. In the meantime the reality is that you are stuck with what you have. Because the simple facts are that it is there, and the majority of the people support it.

America will remain a society with guns available to all that want them. And guns really are very cool toys. And we all love our toys. It would likely be the same here if the circumstances were the same. The 2nd is an accident of history with real consequences that are not going away.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[RiggerLee 61]

Actually those numbers include all dead not just the ones shot with guns so I think if any thing it's scewed against my argument. Not cherry picking here.

I mint to respond to this

"Maybe it's because we insist on being a nation of war and death.
We spend more on that than anything else. "

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/57/U.S._Federal_Spending.png

Defense looks to be about 16% Most of our budget seems to be absorbed with healthcare and entitlements. Just about half in fact. Doesn't sound like a bunch of cold hearted killers to me.

Lee

Lee
[email protected]
www.velocitysportswear.com

[gowlerk 1,914]

Quote

Doesn't sound like a bunch of cold hearted killers to me.

I sure don't see Americans as a bunch of cold hearted killers. But some are. And the ones that are have easy access to the tools of war.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[kallend 1,625]

RiggerLee

Ok, so if you want to talk the whole US then it's only fair to look at... say all of Europe.

Nope. Eastern Europe is still suffering the lingering effects of Soviet occupation and has homicides way out of line with the western Europe democracies.

And you can cherry pick years with significant events in France, Norway, etc., but taken over the long term the USA is WAY out in front of western Europe, Canada, Australia, and similar nations with long democratic traditions.

BTW you can get more up-to-date US homicide data from the FBI Uniform Crime Report, published annually.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[RiggerLee 61]

I'm old school so when I talk about Europe I mean the west. Not the Commie, eastern block side. I still think of them as the Soviet Union. The US data is right up to last week. I think it's pretty good there. I don't think 10 years constitutes cherry picking. The last few have been rough for them. That's why I looked back farther to 10 years which includes things like Sandy Hook, Aurora, and Fort Hood. It's a descent data set. And the data is interesting. There are fewer shootings in Europe because, well ordinary people don't have guns. It's not complicated. But that's not what we're talking about here. Mass shootings don't follow those rules. Europe is proof that a determined criminal can always get a gun no mater how strict the gun laws. The number of events is still a bit low for statistics but I think I can argue that the events tend to be worse. I think this is a result of fewer guns in the community. In some countries the police don't carry guns, at least not all of them. It think it leads to a longer response time till a good guy with a gun is on the scene.

Europe has had more people die in the last ten years in mass shooting then the US. The events in Europe tend to be worse on average. On the other hand non mas shootings are significantly higher in the US and they're rather concentrated And oddly the concentrations are in cities with high levels of gun control. Chicago.

Lee

Lee
[email protected]
www.velocitysportswear.com

[gowlerk 1,914]

Quote

And oddly the concentrations are in cities with high levels of gun control. Chicago.

Lee, they don't have higher concentrations of gun violence in those cities because they have gun control. They have gun control in an attempt to do something about the violence. But it's too late now.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[billvon 2,400]

>Europe is proof that a determined criminal can always get a gun no mater how strict
>the gun laws.

Yep. It's also proof that gun laws work most of the time. Our gun death rate is 36 times higher than it is in Germany. 18 times higher than France. 12 times higher than Italy. 36 times higher than Spain's.

[RMK 3]

PhreeZone

The rate of fire seemed more like that of a AR fitted with a bump stock.

Check out the big brain on PhreeZone.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/breakingnews/las-vegas-gunman-used-bump-stock-device-to-speed-fire/ar-AAsQ32O

He was a day ahead of the national press. Billvon please get one the "gold star" stickers out of your desk drawer and affix next to PhreeZone's avatar.

"Pain is the best instructor, but no one wants to attend his classes"