Israeli troops attack ship carrying aid to Gaza killing 16

[wmw999 2,122]

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If there were weapons and rockets on the ships I can understand, but if there was food and cloths then I can’t.

The problem is that if there are weapons and rockets, it's too late if you let them in. I'm not saying there were in this case. Just that if you're charged with keeping them out, it's a worse problem to let some in than to keep some humanitarian aid out (at least when it's not your own country ).

That's why the outrage would be incredibly greater if it were a RC ship that was attacked if it were going to Gaza. Because of the history of the RC.

Even a new, and totally neutral, group wouldn't get the benefit of the doubt to the same degree as the Red Cross. The history just isn't there. And it's why a group with doubtful members and past will be doubted, even when it has the best and most honest of intentions.

Reputation is established with a lot of data points, and it takes very few to ruin it.

Had IHH not been involved, were there any other organizations that would have raised the same hackles, and given the same kind of justification for violence? Dunno. Would other organizations have trained their people to simply engage in peaceful resistance, and document well with photographs (far more effective in the long run, but not helpful in actually getting supplies to Gaza).

The result would probably have been the same (i.e. boarded and stopped). But either:
a. there would not have been any weapons involved in the resistance, which would have made the Israelis look considerably more one-sided
b. there would have been only a search and boarding, and the supplies would have eventually gotten through.

I can see the purpose of including cement, but if the desired result was mainly to get the supplies through, the cement should have been on a single vessel. If the desired result was to get cement removed from the banned list, that wasn't the best way to go.

The whole area is a complete fucked-up mess of bad blood going back to the old what-you-did-to-me-justifies-what-I'm-doing-to-you (aka tit-for-tat) that is one of the least productive ways of resolving a complicated situation.

Quite frankly, this is a case where a joint crisis where everyone HAD to pull together (something like an alien invasion) might be the only way to get each side to see the others as people, instead of as representatives of what they hate most.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[Amazon 7]

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>And you had every right to board those ships to inspect them.

Not in international waters we don't.

Can you please inform the US Coast Guard of your "opinion"!!!!!!

I know they do it all the time out here off our coast.

[wolfriverjoe 1,340]

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>And you had every right to board those ships to inspect them.

Not in international waters we don't.

We've done it to North Korea in the past, although we stopped doing it by force http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/17/world/asia/17korea.html

According to this story, the US is/was going to ask permission to board and search suspect ships.
And had boarded and searched in the past.

Did/do we have that right?

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[falxori 0]

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if the desired result was mainly to get the supplies through

If the desired result was to get the supply through all they had to do was to let Israel inspect and clear it. Israel promised to let the supplies in once inspected and despite the mess, they already transferred what was on that ship to Gaza.

They didn't care about the supplies, they cared about making a scene, hence the violent response on board

"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

[christelsabine 1]

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It seems you and other missed this part of the whole story...
....

As I'm old enough, I am well aware of what's going on in the world. Once upon a time, I learned to read and listen. In several languages, BTW.

A stupid generalization like that one (*72 virgin land ...*) looks ugly compared to that serious incident.

So, your above reply is needless.

dudeist skydiver # 3105

[falxori 0]

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And you had every right to board those ships to inspect them.

Not in international waters we don't.

I'm not an expert on legal issues so I hope i'm not way off but as far as I understand, maritime blockades are a legitimate and recognized measure under international law that may be implemented as part of an armed conflict at sea.
and, a blockade may be imposed at sea, including in international waters, so long as it does not bar access to the ports and coasts of neutral states

now, if a blockade is in effect and is known and the ship has indicated its intentions, it can be boarded after sufficient warning.

again, this may have been a stupid move by Israel. but these were not "peaceful civilian" ships. and again, I think the video says it all...

"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

[Amazon 7]

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It seems you and other missed this part of the whole story...
....

As I'm old enough, I am well aware of what's going on in the world. Once upon a time, I learned to read and listen. In several languages, BTW.

A stupid generalization like that one (*72 virgin land ...*) looks ugly compared to that serious incident.

So, your above reply is needless.

Sorry but there were several reports of activists that were doing just that. There were also reports of those boarding the ships on debarcation with chants of the ever popular.... Death to Israel.

Look Ma No Weapons

Gee what does that Green Flag read ...personally I don't read Arabic.. but it does seem to have some all too familiar phrases and oh my!!!!!... "peaceful" protestors on the Mavi Mamara did what with what to those trying to board the ship????



Interesting that the people claiming they were peacefull..... are lying.... like RUGS.


http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/meast/06/01/gaza.raid/index.html?iref=allsearch

The Free Gaza Movement denies there was violent resistance to Israeli soldiers, saying the soldiers immediately opened fire on unarmed civilians. OOOOOPS

The Israeli military released a video shot from above the ship that it said showed soldiers being attacked, though the distance from which it was shot precluded immediate confirmation.
Things that make you go HMMMMMMMMM

[kelpdiver 2]

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>The Soviet equivalent would have been to forcibly escort KAL 007 to
>their nearest airbase . . . .

. . . and shooting a bunch of Americans when they refused to cooperate.

But if we do use your analogy, then something like that did in fact happen. A US P3 was harassed by Chinese fighters, struck by one and then forced (via the resulting damage) to land in China. We were pretty upset about that too - and that was likely an accident. If China had said "no, we disabled your P3 on purpose" then killed the crew do you think we would have been OK with it?

This is highly situational. Consider the ways in which the Soviets could have handled it akin to this event.

1) KGB starts beating passengers and pulling fingernails to get information. Captives revolt, 4 of the 269 die in the fight.
2) Soviets jail the passengers for a year, threaten to try them as spies, but otherwise treat them alright. Iran with the 3 Berkeley hikers
3) Soviets detain passengers for a few days, tear apart the plane looking for spy gear, then send them home. That's pretty much how they handled the P3 incident.

Thought the US made a stink about it (and I was applying for a tourist visa to China that very month), it felt like cold war rhetoric. Spy planes and subs often get into sticky situations and the standard of care is not the same as it would be with a civilian craft. But then you come back to asking was this aid convoy purely civilian? Not by the way they responded to the inspection, or planned the affair to begin with.

[Amazon 7]

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>The Soviet equivalent would have been to forcibly escort KAL 007 to
>their nearest airbase . . . .

. . . and shooting a bunch of Americans when they refused to cooperate.

But if we do use your analogy, then something like that did in fact happen. A US P3 was harassed by Chinese fighters, struck by one and then forced (via the resulting damage) to land in China. We were pretty upset about that too - and that was likely an accident. If China had said "no, we disabled your P3 on purpose" then killed the crew do you think we would have been OK with it?

This is highly situational. Consider the ways in which the Soviets could have handled it akin to this event.

1) KGB starts beating passengers and pulling fingernails to get information. Captives revolt, 4 of the 269 die in the fight.
2) Soviets jail the passengers for a year, threaten to try them as spies, but otherwise treat them alright. Iran with the 3 Berkeley hikers
3) Soviets detain passengers for a few days, tear apart the plane looking for spy gear, then send them home. That's pretty much how they handled the P3 incident.

Thought the US made a stink about it (and I was applying for a tourist visa to China that very month), it felt like cold war rhetoric. Spy planes and subs often get into sticky situations and the standard of care is not the same as it would be with a civilian craft. But then you come back to asking was this aid convoy purely civilian? Not by the way they responded to the inspection, or planned the affair to begin with.

YOU ARE A SPY... always one of my favorites
Sorry... just reminiscing a bit

[Andy9o8 0]

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. . . and shooting a bunch of Americans when they refused to cooperate.

C'mon, Bill, the video's in the public domain. Even assuming the Israelis fucked up tactically in a major way, anyone who views that video can plainly see that the live fire was in response to violence (by the passengers against the raiders) far more than mere "refusal to cooperate".

[shah269 0]

Look it's hard to argue with "gods" chosen people.
Now why god woudl choose some eastern european white dudes over say people of Africa or Southern Asia....is beyond me.
Thus we must call this "god" to the stand and talk to him regarding his choice of chosen people.
Becuase let's face it they are kind of acting like a bunch of morons. Yeah we really do feel bad for you for what those bad Germans did but I mean really?
Why can't you just stop being so gosh darn stubborn and lean how to live WITH your neighbors instead of kicking them off their land and shooting at them!
I mean really! I'm sure "GOD" would so not be happy!
FYI
I think "Gods" kid, JC, he was an Arab with a year around tan.

Life through good thoughts, good words, and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep chaos at bay.

The only thing that falls from the sky is birdshit and fools!

[falxori 0]

wow, its been awhile since I've seen such an intelligent post...

"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

[Skyrad 0]

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like lambs to the slaughter

and the 6 wounded (2 criticically) soldirer were hurt by the breeze, right?

While it is an unfortunate outcome that shouldn't have happened, this is exactly what the organizers have hoped for.
if all they wanted was helping Gaza, they would have accepted the offer to transer the supplies peacefully like is being done daily through Israel and/or Egypt.
still, Israel shouldn't have been dragged into this provocation

Israel should not have committed an act of piracy in international waters. If it wanted to board the vessels it should have done so in its own waters. The mission was a total clusterfuck. Israel has screwed up big time on this one.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[SkyChimp 0]

Interesting article that I found today on Vice President Joe Biden supporting Israel for intercepting the supply ships. His point is that Israel needed to know if arms were on board.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/06/03/biden-israel-right-stop-gaza-ships/

Does anyone else find it funny that we made a SPORT out of an EMERGENCY PROCEDURE?!?!

[Andy9o8 0]

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Israel should not have committed an act of piracy in international waters. If it wanted to board the vessels it should have done so in its own waters.

Not correct. International law provides for blockades, and does not require that blockades, even "pacific" (i.e., peacetime) blockades, may only be enforced in a nation's territorial waters; rather, blockades may be enforced in international waters. Aside from wartime, the US intercepted vessels in international waters during Prohibition, during the Cuban missile crisis and often intercepts suspected drug- or immigrant-running boats coming from the Caribbean. In modern times, the UK has done likewise in international waters around Northern Ireland.

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The mission was a total clusterfuck. Israel has screwed up big time on this one.

Agreed. Strategic and blockade policy issues aside, and even assuming the mission were to proceed, the tactical planning and execution were incompetent; the the fatalities and the level of violence (by everyone) were entirely avoidable, and Israel is going to have to live with the consequences of that incompetence.

[Kennedy 0]

Andy, they don't want to hear the facts, they are just going to keep calling it piracy, or comparing it to one country's navy making an unprovoked attack on another country's navy.

But I agreee with you on both points. Of course, instead of going through the proper channels to get their aid to Gaza, the people who attacked the IDF soldiers are gong to send more boats. I don't see the IDF using paintball guns this time.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[Skyrad 0]

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Andy, they don't want to hear the facts, they are just going to keep calling it piracy, or comparing it to one country's navy making an unprovoked attack on another country's navy.

But I agreee with you on both points. Of course, instead of going through the proper channels to get their aid to Gaza, the people who attacked the IDF soldiers are gong to send more boats. I don't see the IDF using paintball guns this time.

What are you fucking psychic?? Actually I stand corrected on the first part but there is no denying that Israel has screwed this up and shot themselves in the foot. Like I said a clusterfuck of a mission.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[kelpdiver 2]

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Andy, they don't want to hear the facts, they are just going to keep calling it piracy, or comparing it to one country's navy making an unprovoked attack on another country's navy.

But I agreee with you on both points. Of course, instead of going through the proper channels to get their aid to Gaza, the people who attacked the IDF soldiers are gong to send more boats. I don't see the IDF using paintball guns this time.

What are you fucking psychic?? Actually I stand corrected on the first part but there is no denying that Israel has screwed this up and shot themselves in the foot. Like I said a clusterfuck of a mission.

Nothing psychic here - it's already been announced that more boats will be departing. And there's no chance in hell that the Israelis are going to use paintball guns again. Either they do it right, or they do nothing at all, and it seems unlikely that they will capitulate and let weapons freely flow into Gaza.

[Skyrad 0]

What weapons?

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[kelpdiver 2]

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What weapons?

was this a serious question?

[sundevil777 93]

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What weapons?

If the ships in the convoys are not carrying weapons, it is because they know they will be effectively searched. You see, when an inspection-blockade is actually enforced, the parties that want to get weapons in by that route know it won't work. If they stopped enforcing it, then the weapons would surely be on the ships. That is why it is not relevant that there were no weapons on that particular ship - of course there weren't. If there had been weapons, then the intended media circus of desired sympathy would not have flowed.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[dreamdancer 0]

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It is interesting to compare the US administration's position on this tragic event with the positions expressed by its Latin American neighbors. In the past, Latin America has been generally friendlier to Israel than most developing regions of the world, and countries of the hemisphere considered to be solidly within the orbit of U.S. influence -- for instance most of Central America -- have been more reluctant to criticize Israel's policies in the occupied territories of the West Bank and Gaza. In this case, though, the vast majority of Latin American reactions to the Israeli raid are fundamentally at odds with the U.S. position.

The first surprise, as we look south of the border, is Mexico's response to the incident. Mexico and Israel have traditionally been close friends and signed a bilateral free trade agreement in 2000. But on May 31st Mexico's foreign ministry condemned the Israeli "attack" "in the most energetic terms" and called on Israel to lift its embargo on Gaza. Mexico's reaction is undoubtedly of particular concern to both Israel and the U.S. as it is a temporary member of the UN Security Council and is in charge of the presidency of that body until the end of June. According to CNN, Mexico has spoken of possibly seeking UN sanctions against Israel.

http://www.commondreams.org/view/2010/06/04-1

stay away from moving propellers - they bite
blue skies from thai sky adventures
good solid response-provoking keyboarding

[Skyrad 0]

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What weapons?

was this a serious question?

Yes, if weapons had been on the ships the IDF would have shown them all over the media by now.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[RackJR 0]

I've been out of the loop for a couple days, so if I missed something, please enlighten me. I watched a video of the confiscated "weapons". Without summarizing the whole video, I think the worst of the bunch was a pretty sinister looking knife. Otherwise, it seemed like a lame attempt to show that the people were armed. Certainly they knew that they would be dealing with the IDF. I can't imagine they would have thought that slingshots would be effective weapons against trained soldiers.

So sundevil. They said it was humanitarian. 16 people are dead. They didn't have weapons, and you're saying here that it's no problem, IDF had to kill them to show that they would search all vessels thoroughly?

I'm not doubting that they had in mind some level of media attention, that the circus would bring light to the situation. But your post here seems that you'll justify any action by the IDF (or Isreal), no matter what it is.

I doubt that's a behavior you admire in others.

Say what you mean. Do what you say.

[skycop 0]

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Yes, if weapons had been on the ships the IDF would have shown them all over the media by now.

Ketusha rockets no, there were a small amount of small arms, and a couple RPG tubes from the reports I saw.
There were also night-vision goggles, gas masks, and numerous improvised weapons to combat the boarding parties. Additionally the backgrounds of some of the "activists" were tied to Hamas and other terror supporting organizations. 5 other boats were boarded peacefully, as far as the IDF goes, it was a media victory for the "activists". Another thing about the media victory is the obvious leaning the media has against Israel.

"Just 'cause I'm simple, don't mean I'm stewpid!"