Israeli troops attack ship carrying aid to Gaza killing 16

[Amazon 7]

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I've been out of the loop for a couple days, so if I missed something, please enlighten me. I watched a video of the confiscated "weapons". Without summarizing the whole video, I think the worst of the bunch was a pretty sinister looking knife. Otherwise, it seemed like a lame attempt to show that the people were armed. Certainly they knew that they would be dealing with the IDF. I can't imagine they would have thought that slingshots would be effective weapons against trained soldiers.

So sundevil. They said it was humanitarian. 16 people are dead. They didn't have weapons, and you're saying here that it's no problem, IDF had to kill them to show that they would search all vessels thoroughly?

I'm not doubting that they had in mind some level of media attention, that the circus would bring light to the situation. But your post here seems that you'll justify any action by the IDF (or Isreal), no matter what it is.

I doubt that's a behavior you admire in others.

Do you think its a good idea to beat ARMED US Coast Guardsmen nearly to death if they decide to board your vessel within the 200 mile exclusive economic zone off the Pacific coast of North America?

You missed the part where there were those aboard the Turkish ship who wished to be martyred and sought to incite the violence and there are plenty of video's around showing your "peaceful protestor humanitarians" attacking the IDF soldiers with pipes and knives and nearly killing some of them.
I don't think that the Israeli's ever got the memo about turning the other cheek thing.... when someone is beating them to death.

[Southern_Man 0]

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I don't think that the Israeli's ever got the memo about turning the other cheek thing.... when someone is beating them to death.

That's the New Testament, so no, the IDF never got that part. They are more the "eye for an eye" types.

"What if there were no hypothetical questions?"

[kelpdiver 2]

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What weapons?

was this a serious question?

Yes, if weapons had been on the ships the IDF would have shown them all over the media by now.

As Sundevil elaborates, of course they weren't on THIS shipment. The point of this event was to cause bloody conflict in order to pressure Israel to end the blockade and then ship weapons at will.

[dreamdancer 0]

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Unemployment was a major problem in the ghetto. Illegal workshops were created to manufacture goods to be sold illegally on the outside and raw goods were smuggled in often by children. Hundreds of four to five year old Jewish children went across en masse to the "Aryan side", sometimes several times a day, smuggling food into the ghettos, returning with goods that often weighed more than they did. Smuggling was often the only source of subsistence for Ghetto inhabitants, who would otherwise have died of starvation. Despite the grave hardships, life in the Warsaw Ghetto was rich with educational and cultural activities, conducted by its underground organizations. Hospitals, public soup kitchens, orphanages, refugee centers and recreation facilities were formed, as well as a school system. Some schools were illegal and operated under the guise of a soup kitchen. There were secret libraries, classes for the children and even a symphony orchestra. The life in the ghetto was chronicled by the Oyneg Shabbos group.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warsaw_Ghetto

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[sundevil777 93]

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I've been out of the loop for a couple days, so if I missed something, please enlighten me. I watched a video of the confiscated "weapons". Without summarizing the whole video, I think the worst of the bunch was a pretty sinister looking knife. Otherwise, it seemed like a lame attempt to show that the people were armed. Certainly they knew that they would be dealing with the IDF. I can't imagine they would have thought that slingshots would be effective weapons against trained soldiers.

So sundevil. They said it was humanitarian. 16 people are dead. They didn't have weapons, and you're saying here that it's no problem, IDF had to kill them to show that they would search all vessels thoroughly?

I'm not doubting that they had in mind some level of media attention, that the circus would bring light to the situation. But your post here seems that you'll justify any action by the IDF (or Isreal), no matter what it is.

I doubt that's a behavior you admire in others.

Yes, you have been out of the loop and missed a lot.

The soldiers were getting beat with metal pipes. Did you not watch the video?

It would be good to catch up before you assail a person's character. As you said, "I doubt that's a behavior you admire in others."

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[Skyrad 0]

Can you post a link to support this?

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[falxori 0]

There were some items that are border line but i'm perfectly content with saying there were no weapons on this ship. this is beside the point.

the point is that if you allow ships to pass unchecked, there will be and a lot of them.
it would have been highly stupid of them to have weapons on this specific ship.

This has nothing to do with the violence they've encountered and the response that followed.

"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

[remibond 0]

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Unemployment was a major problem in the ghetto. Illegal workshops were created to manufacture goods to be sold illegally on the outside and raw goods were smuggled in often by children. Hundreds of four to five year old Jewish children went across en masse to the "Aryan side", sometimes several times a day, smuggling food into the ghettos, returning with goods that often weighed more than they did. Smuggling was often the only source of subsistence for Ghetto inhabitants, who would otherwise have died of starvation. Despite the grave hardships, life in the Warsaw Ghetto was rich with educational and cultural activities, conducted by its underground organizations. Hospitals, public soup kitchens, orphanages, refugee centers and recreation facilities were formed, as well as a school system. Some schools were illegal and operated under the guise of a soup kitchen. There were secret libraries, classes for the children and even a symphony orchestra. The life in the ghetto was chronicled by the Oyneg Shabbos group.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warsaw_Ghetto

So basically what you're saying is that when jews were being oppressed they didn't bomb people.

[skycop 0]

http://www.jpost.com/Israel/Article.aspx?id=177169

Not exactly what "peace activists"normally carry.
I guess the IDF was expecting some drums, lots of real artsy signs, and smelly hippies-hencethe less lethal pepperball guns, I said it earlier, that is the LAST time the IDF does that while boarding "activists" boats.

"Just 'cause I'm simple, don't mean I'm stewpid!"

[RackJR 0]

I did watch the video. I saw the attack on the soldiers. Clearly those people had every intention of provoking conflict. I think the whole operation was a sham, contrived completely to generate sympathy for the situation in Gaza and with only the secondary notion of providing aid. Kind of like that boat on "whale wars" ( I realize this is a crappy analogy), they stir up a lot of shit, and maybe save a whale. However, I doubt that the people were prepared to die.

I guess the reason I said I had been out of the loop was because I still haven't heard about weapons being on the boat, and I was curious if your post was an admission to that, as well as the preemptive explanation that it doesn't matter, Isreal is still in the right no matter what happens.

I have no emotional stake in this conflict. Whether you choose to believe it or not, the people who do not support Isreal the way you do are not jew hating nazi's. I realize my bio info lists my current city as Abu Dhabi, but I'm not arab. I grew up in the US and have only been over here for 6 months.

So back to the question you didn't answer. Do you feel that rhys is fine to support his 9/11 conspiracy theory, no matter what facts are presented? He will explain everything away, since his beginning stance is that the conspiracy exists, and all information after that must fit the original stance.

Is Isreal correct, no matter what actions they take? Are they above reproach, IYO? Did 16 people need to die here? I think Amazon called them martyrs. Is that really what you believe, that those people got on the boat thinking they would die for this cause?

Say what you mean. Do what you say.

[Amazon 7]

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Did 16 people need to die here? I think Amazon called them martyrs. Is that really what you believe, that those people got on the boat thinking they would die for this cause?
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By the way... its 9 dead not 16 and as far as being martyrs its what they desired on that ship. The other ships all submitted without violence.. those were the ships with all the western activists who did not know what the REAL mission was.

[dreamdancer 0]

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Unemployment was a major problem in the ghetto. Illegal workshops were created to manufacture goods to be sold illegally on the outside and raw goods were smuggled in often by children. Hundreds of four to five year old Jewish children went across en masse to the "Aryan side", sometimes several times a day, smuggling food into the ghettos, returning with goods that often weighed more than they did. Smuggling was often the only source of subsistence for Ghetto inhabitants, who would otherwise have died of starvation. Despite the grave hardships, life in the Warsaw Ghetto was rich with educational and cultural activities, conducted by its underground organizations. Hospitals, public soup kitchens, orphanages, refugee centers and recreation facilities were formed, as well as a school system. Some schools were illegal and operated under the guise of a soup kitchen. There were secret libraries, classes for the children and even a symphony orchestra. The life in the ghetto was chronicled by the Oyneg Shabbos group.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warsaw_Ghetto

So basically what you're saying is that when jews were being oppressed they didn't bomb people.

they would of if they could of...

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On January 18, 1943, the first instance of armed resistance occurred when the Germans started the final expulsion of the remaining Jews. The Jewish fighters had some success: the expulsion stopped after four days and the ŻOB and ŻZW resistance organizations took control of the Ghetto, building shelters and fighting posts and operating against Jewish collaborators.

The final battle started on the eve of Passover of April 19, 1943, when a Nazi force consisting of several thousand troops entered the ghetto. After initial setbacks, the Germans under the field command of Jürgen Stroop systematically burned and blew up the ghetto buildings, block by block, rounding up or murdering anybody they could capture. Significant resistance ended on April 23, and the Nazi operation officially ended in mid-May, symbolically culminated with the demolition of the Great Synagogue of Warsaw on May 16.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warsaw_Ghetto

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[dreamdancer 0]

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http://www.jpost.com/Israel/Article.aspx?id=177169

Not exactly what "peace activists"normally carry.
I guess the IDF was expecting some drums, lots of real artsy signs, and smelly hippies-hencethe less lethal pepperball guns, I said it earlier, that is the LAST time the IDF does that while boarding "activists" boats.

looks like the israelis wanted to make an example by murdering as many turks as they could...

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Nine Turkish men on board the Mavi Marmara were shot a total of 30 times and five were killed by gunshot wounds to the head, according to the vice-chairman of the Turkish council of forensic medicine, which carried out the autopsies for the Turkish ministry of justice today.

The results revealed that a 60-year-old man, Ibrahim Bilgen, was shot four times in the temple, chest, hip and back. A 19-year-old, named as Fulkan Dogan, who also has US citizenship, was shot five times from less that 45cm, in the face, in the back of the head, twice in the leg and once in the back. Two other men were shot four times, and five of the victims were shot either in the back of the head or in the back, said Yalcin Buyuk, vice-chairman of the council of forensic medicine.

The findings emerged as more survivors gave their accounts of the raids. Ismail Patel, the chairman of Leicester-based pro-Palestinian group Friends of al-Aqsa, who returned to Britain today, told how he witnessed some of the fatal shootings and claimed that Israel had operated a "shoot to kill policy".

He calculated that during the bloodiest part of the assault, Israeli commandos shot one person every minute. One man was fatally shot in the back of the head just two feet in front him and another was shot once between the eyes. He added that as well as the fatally wounded, 48 others were suffering from gunshot wounds and six activists remained missing, suggesting the death toll may increase.

The new information about the manner and intensity of the killings undermines Israel's insistence that its soldiers opened fire only in self defence and in response to attacks by the activists.

"Given the very disturbing evidence which contradicts the line from the Israeli media and suggests that Israelis have been very selective in the way they have addressed this, there is now an overwhelming need for an international inquiry," said Andrew Slaughter MP, a member of the all party group on Britain and Palestine.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jun/04/gaza-flotilla-activists-autopsy-results

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[kelpdiver 2]

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looks like the israelis wanted to make an example by murdering as many turks as they could...

were that the case, there were hundreds more that could have been killed.

Multiple shots at close range is exactly what you get with close quarters hand to hand combat.

"The findings emerged as more survivors gave their accounts of the raids. Ismail Patel, the chairman of Leicester-based pro-Palestinian group Friends of al-Aqsa, who returned to Britain today, told how he witnessed some of the fatal shootings and claimed that Israel had operated a "shoot to kill policy". "

Given this was a propaganda mission, how credible should we find this person?

[dreamdancer 0]

if the israelis had just surrendered to the crew when they met resistance then nobody would have died.

and i would call it more 'hand to gun' than genuine 'hand to hand' combat.

the israelis also have a 'crush to death' policy - hence the rachel corrie ship.

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[futuredivot 0]

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If the numbnuts on the ship hadn't wanted to provoke an attack then nobody would have died.

You are only as strong as the prey you devour

[skycop 0]

looks like the israelis wanted to make an example by murdering as many turks as they could...

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I must have missed on the video the certain "activists" with signs that said, "I'm a Turk shoot me"

***Nine Turkish men on board the Mavi Marmara were shot a total of 30 times and five were killed by gunshot wounds to the head

If you engage in close quarter battle with highly trained naval commandos, who have to resort to (mainly) handguns to defend themselves, those are the wounds you are going to get. I'm not trying to be funny or sarcastic, that is just reality.

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if the israelis had just surrendered to the crew when they met resistance then nobody would have died.

That is by far, one of the most unrealistic things I've EVER heard in speakers corner. Again, if you attack highly trained commandos, they are not going to surrender they are going to take control by any means available, regardless of what country they are from.

"Just 'cause I'm simple, don't mean I'm stewpid!"

[dreamdancer 0]

if the brave israeli commander had just told his men to put down their weapons when they realised they were outnumbered then nobody need have died.

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[dreamdancer 0]

the ones who were attacked were the ship's crew and passengers. if the israeli commander had been really brave and had really wanted to see no deaths then he would have ordered his men to surrender as soon as he realised they were outnumbered. what was he scared of - certainly not his conscience.

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[skycop 0]

When these "peace activists" decided to start using deadly force against uniformed members of a blockcading navy, they were no longer peace activists, they were combatants. They were treated as such by their own actions, none of the other boats had a problem.......

"Just 'cause I'm simple, don't mean I'm stewpid!"

[skycop 0]

***the ones who were attacked were the ship's crew and passengers

certainly not his conscience. ***

Using your logic in a tactical sense then the IDF should have just lit the whole floatilla up, they certainly had the means to do so. They initially were showing restraint by fast roping onto a hostile vessel armed mainly with less-lethal weapons. The "activists" turned the situation into a deadly force encounter.

"Just 'cause I'm simple, don't mean I'm stewpid!"

[dreamdancer 0]

no, the isreali commander fired the first shot. and the israelis were the only ones with guns. at nuremberg it was shown that, even wearing a uniform, murder is murder. if the israeli pirates/uniformed men had surrendered that would have been the honourable thing to do - and the ship still wouldn't have got further.

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[skycop 0]

Alright man,
Ya got me, I can no longer deal with your superior intellect and ability not to use emotion when engaging in a debate.

So. I've wasted enough time (at least with you) for the day.
Peace out!

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and the ship still wouldn't have got further.

Nah, just to Gaza where they would have been held hostage............geez..........

"Just 'cause I'm simple, don't mean I'm stewpid!"

[dreamdancer 0]

the ship would never have got to gaza. at worst the israelis would have launched a real commando raid - got their men back and be seen as peaceful heroes - not the murderous thugs they proved themselves to be in reality.

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[dreamdancer 0]

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Turkey says it might reduce economic and defence ties with Israel following the deadly raid on a Gaza aid flotilla.

Deputy PM Bulent Arinc said Ankara was "assessing deals with Israel", once its close ally.

Turkish PM Recep Tayyip Erdogan said he did not view Hamas, which runs Gaza, as a terrorist organisation.

In Friday's televised speech, which analysts say will anger Israel, Mr Erdogan described Hamas as "resistance fighters who are struggling to defend their land".

"I have told this to US officials... I do not accept Hamas as a terrorist organisation," he said.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/10236884.stm

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