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dreamdancer

Israeli troops attack ship carrying aid to Gaza killing 16

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Do you support the Gaza rockets being shot by Hamas? Do you support Hamas??



as in what do i send them money, food, ? No i don't

However I can understand what motivates them. I can understand how the desperate people of Gaza might view them as heroes or freedom fighters.

The satiation is horrible, and it includes horrible actions by both sides. However nothing will ever get solved if one we don’t understand the situations, and two blindly support a side regardless of facts.

No one is an angle if you wish to talk about the whole conflict.

But on this one Israel broke the law, and the supporters of THIS action should take a long hard look too see if they have remained rational about the subject, or are they just trying to protect there side.

As for the media circus I will tell you from personal experience. When it comes to Israel the US media is extremely bias and supportive of Israel, and the Arab media is extremely bias and supportive of Palestine.
I do however hold our media to a higher standard then a state run news agency.
I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

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>They are at war. Do you not realize that naval warfare often happens
>in international waters?

And we are at war with North Korea. If we boarded a Red Cross ship headed there and killed 16 crewmembers, we'd be wrong, too.



This wasn't the Red Cross. The people on board were not neutral. Per Israel, the organization is merely a front for Al queda and Hamas. True or not, it's not quite the neutrality that the RC represents.

A positive outcome of this event would be the creation of a process for shipping humanitarian goods to Gaza that meets Israel's need for defense. That would mean permitted inspection of the goods by the IDF.

The fallout should give those supporting Gaza considerable capital to press on this need. We'll see if they use it for the good of the people, or to further their ILLEGAL (for you namby pamby lawyers) war against Israel. Sadly, the history and charter of Hamas suggests they will focus on the latter - trying to end the blockade so they can increase their weapons flow, which will mean yet another invasion of Gaza and yet more civilian deaths.

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It's helpful when you include quotations, and writing in good English also helps (fuck up world, brake).
....



Why don't you request some of your fellow countrymen to do so, from time to time?

That too, would be helpful. :|


Not my job. Feel free to request it when you feel it appropriate.

But if Darius actually wanted some sort of response from me to that post, it would be helpful to have context, not just drunken whining.

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That is an act of piracy or an act of war.



Posting this message repeatedly doesn't make it more significant.

They are at war. Hamas, the government of the Gaza territory, has a goal of destroying Israel and has been engaged in military actions to do this for years.

It's pretty clear that the convoy was seeking to force a confrontation for PR purposes. If not, then Israel's decision to board with minimal force was a critical error (that they won't repeat) that encouraged the ship's occupants to attempt to kill the boarding party. However, it may have been their intentions to have a deadly conflict all along (martyr production), which would make the Israel decision irrelevant.

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It's helpful when you include quotations, and writing in good English also helps (fuck up world, brake).
....



Why don't you request some of your fellow countrymen to do so, from time to time?

That too, would be helpful. :|


Not my job. Feel free to request it when you feel it appropriate.

But if Darius actually wanted some sort of response from me to that post, it would be helpful to have context, not just drunken whining.


that's a pa - please edit.
stay away from moving propellers - they bite
blue skies from thai sky adventures
good solid response-provoking keyboarding

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> The people on board were not neutral.

Funny. When the Soviets shot down Korean Air Lines Flight 07, killing all aboard (including 62 US citizens) they claimed it was a spy aircraft and thus they were justified in shooting it down. Did you believe them as well?

Invading aid ships in international waters and killing people on board isn't OK whether the invaders are Somalian, Israeli, Palestinian or American. Trying to justify it will only once again erode our claims of morality and integrity on the international level.

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The people on board were not neutral. Per Israel, the organization is merely a front for Al queda and Hamas.



Really? Where did you find this information?



You cut context. But here's the source: AP.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2010/06/01/international/i033930D82.DTL

"Israeli officials have said the Turkish charity is merely a front and that the group is has links to al-Qaida and Hamas despite its operating legally in Turkey. The charity denies the charges."

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The people on board were not neutral. Per Israel, the organization is merely a front for Al queda and Hamas.



Really? Where did you find this information?



FROM WIKI

IHH Humanitarian Relief Foundation (The Foundation for Human Rights and Freedom and Humanitarian Relief), is an Turkish NGO with a radical Islamic anti-Western orientation[3] acting in more than hundred countries all over the world. Officially established in 1995, IHH purports to provide humanitarian relief into areas of war and conflict. An 2006 International Studies report has connected the organization with Al-Qaeda and global jihad networks[1]. The IHH holds consultative membership status in the United Nations Economic and Social Council.


Background
According to Reuters, "the Istanbul-based Foundation for Human Rights and Freedoms and Humanitarian Relief (IHH) is an Islamic charity group that was formed to provide aid to Bosnian Muslims in the mid-1990s. It has been involved in aid missions in Pakistan, Ethiopia, Lebanon, Indonesia, Iraq, Palestinian territories and other places, according to Turkish media." [2] The organisation brings aid to all countries in Africa as well as Latin America and Europe like Bosnia Herzogovina, Bulgaria, Albania. The Daily Telegraph described the IHH as "a radical Islamist group masquerading as a humanitarian agency." It added that Israel accuses the organizatino of "overtly supporting Hamas, but stated that these "claims remain controversial."[3] - - According to Henri Barkey, an analyst for the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace, the IHH is, "an Islamist organisation as it has been deeply involved with Hamas for some time," and "Some of its members went on the boat saying that they had written their last will and testament." [3] - - In 2006, the Danish Institute for International Studies published a report titled "The Role of Islamic Charities in International Terrorist Recruitment and Financing", by American analyst Evan Kohlman. Kohlman claimed that major international Islamic charities such as IHH, while providing genuine humanitarian relief, are "charitable front groups that provide support to Al-Qaida."[1] Kohlman's only source in making links between IHH and such groups is a report by French investigative magistrate Jean-Louis Bruguière. Kohlman also blamed IHH for assisting the Iraqi Sunni insurgency, and mentioned a 1997 raid in which police found weapons, explosives and bomb-making instructions in the IHH headquarter in Istanbul.[1] Turkish authorities searched IHH headquarters in 1997, discovering "firearms, explosives, bomb-making instructions" as well as records of calls to an al-Qaida guest house in Milan.[1]

A member of the group, Izzet Sahin, had previously been arrested by the Israeli security forces on suspicion of aiding Palestinian organizations banned by Israel. In response, Serkan Nergis, a spokesman for IHH, told Reuters: "We don't have anything against Israel. Our only aim was to carry aid to the people of Gaza. But for Israel, regardless of your religion or your nationality, if you help the people of Gaza you will be declared a terrorist." [2]

In 2006 the Danish Institute for International Studies reported that during the 1990s the IHH had links with Al-Qaeda and global jihad networks. According to the report, the Istanbul offices of the organization were raided. The Turkish security services arrested activists and found weapons and explosives, including instructions for manufacturing IEDs and a flag bearing a jihadist message

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> The people on board were not neutral.

Funny. When the Soviets shot down Korean Air Lines Flight 07, killing all aboard (including 62 US citizens) they claimed it was a spy aircraft and thus they were justified in shooting it down. Did you believe them as well?

Invading aid ships in international waters and killing people on board isn't OK whether the invaders are Somalian, Israeli, Palestinian or American. Trying to justify it will only once again erode our claims of morality and integrity on the international level.



Did the US declassify all the information on that yet? I thought there was some evidence of truth to the Soviet claims.

However, the analogy falls apart. The IDF did not sink the ship, it boarded it to inspect. And people were not killed until the sailors escalated the conflict. They may have a claim of illegal boarding or of being turned away from their route to Gaza, but no one would have died. The Soviet equivalent would have been to forcibly escort KAL 007 to their nearest airbase, like when China captured a spy plane of our's in 2001.

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When it’s a claim it is very hard to know who to believe, but that is a significant point if true.

If there were weapons and rockets on the ships I can understand, but if there was food and cloths then I can’t.


I think the only point of my pervious “rant” was to say you have already chosen a side and will twist, turn, and ignore facts just to support your side. Much like Sunny who says he doesn’t believe that Israel would not allow cloths and shoes to be sent. Then when he get s a link he states that all of a sudden Reuters is not a valid source.


The other part was a simple question.

What rules and laws does Israel abide by ?
I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

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I don't know about that incident(Gaza).



Obviously you don't know about the thousands of rockets fired from Gaza into Israel. The blockcade has virtually stopped the flow of arms into Gaza from the sea. The IDF stated they would let humantarion supplies pass after an inspection for weapons.

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Further, two of the ships Israeli forces acted against in international waters were flying American colors.
This is a direct attack against the US.



These were evidently the ones that were boarded where the "activists" didn't try to kill IDF personnel. Non-point.

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What should Barak Obama do?



Simple, support Israel in it's efforts to protect itself from Hamas attacks coming from Gaza.

"Just 'cause I'm simple, don't mean I'm stewpid!"

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When it’s a claim it is very hard to know who to believe, but that is a significant point if true.

If there were weapons and rockets on the ships I can understand, but if there was food and cloths then I can’t.


I think the only point of my pervious “rant” was to say you have already chosen a side and will twist, turn, and ignore facts just to support your side. Much like Sunny who says he doesn’t believe that Israel would not allow cloths and shoes to be sent. Then when he get s a link he states that all of a sudden Reuters is not a valid source.


The other part was a simple question.

What rules and laws does Israel abide by ?



Pretty simple... if you are indeed humanitarian... abide by the rules of the blockade and allow inspections. Once the inspection is done deliver your aid to those who need it.

If you really want a free trip to 72 virgin land.. as some of these peaceful protestors seem to have deeply desired.... then by all means try to run a blockade into a war zone that has been occuring for many years.

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It was a great example if you open you eyes. The same action took place just change the names and you have a different reaction.



My eyes are open, the comparison was just plain silly and not relivant or relative to the situation at hand.

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What does that tell you about your self?



Absolutely nothing, that statement doesn't make any sense either. I'm well versed at the use/application of force, that's what my original post was about, again facts don't matter, emotion does right?

"Just 'cause I'm simple, don't mean I'm stewpid!"

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>The Soviet equivalent would have been to forcibly escort KAL 007 to
>their nearest airbase . . . .

. . . and shooting a bunch of Americans when they refused to cooperate.

But if we do use your analogy, then something like that did in fact happen. A US P3 was harassed by Chinese fighters, struck by one and then forced (via the resulting damage) to land in China. We were pretty upset about that too - and that was likely an accident. If China had said "no, we disabled your P3 on purpose" then killed the crew do you think we would have been OK with it?

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....
If you really want a free trip to 72 virgin land.. as some of these peaceful protestors seem to have deeply desired.... then by all means try to run a blockade into a war zone that has been occuring for many years.



Some of those *peaceful protestors* are members of the German Parliament, so hardly on a free trip "to 72 virgin land" .... [:/]

dudeist skydiver # 3105

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>They are at war. Do you not realize that naval warfare often happens
>in international waters?

And we are at war with North Korea. If we boarded a Red Cross ship headed there and killed 16 crewmembers, we'd be wrong, too.



That depends.

If there were ships headed to North Korea by a group that claimed to be a charity group, but was actually suspected of being a front for arms smugglers, I think the US Navy might well stop and board and search those ships.

If we had boarded 2 other ships without incident, and were attacked by the crew of the third, the sailors may well use standard force escalation procedures to defend themselves.

I'm not sure that would be wrong.

This was a clear provocation by the blocade runners.

They poked the bear with the stick, and got all whiney when the bear bit them.
"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

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But if Darius actually wanted some sort of response from me to that post, it would be helpful to have context, not just drunken whining.



Jesus. What an arrogance. >:(


looks like he's going to get a free pass on that personal dig >:(
stay away from moving propellers - they bite
blue skies from thai sky adventures
good solid response-provoking keyboarding

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If you really want a free trip to 72 virgin land.. as some of these peaceful protestors seem to have deeply desired.... then by all means try to run a blockade into a war zone that has been occuring for many years.



Some of those *peaceful protestors* are members of the German Parliament, so hardly on a free trip "to 72 virgin land" .... [:/]


It seems you and other missed this part of the whole story...

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/37442104/ns/world_news-mideastn_africa/

Israel said 679 people were arrested, and about 50 of those had left the country voluntarily. Hundreds who refused to cooperate remained jailed and subject to deportation.


Israel sent commandos onto the six ships carrying nearly 700 activists after mission organizers ignored the government's call to bring the cargo to an Israeli port, where it would be inspected and transferred to Gaza. In most cases, the passengers quickly surrendered. But on the largest ship, the Turkish-flagged Mavi Marmara, the forces encountered resistance.

Israeli commandos rappelled on ropes from a helicopter and army videos showed them being attacked by angry activists with metal rods and one soldier being thrown off the ship. Others jumped overboard to escape the angry mob. Israeli authorities said they were attacked by knives, clubs and live fire from two pistols wrested from soldiers. The soldiers then opened fire, killing nine.

Thou shalt not bring pipes and knives to a gunfight

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And we are at war with North Korea. If we boarded a Red Cross ship headed there and killed 16 crewmembers, we'd be wrong,



And you had every right to board those ships to inspect them.

and if your forces boarded those ships and were almost lynched like this video shows, you would have had every right to respond with force.

Takeover video

let me remind you that:
- Israel said it would transfer all of the supplies to Gaza upon inspection (and it fact, it did so today)
- they boarded the ships with paint guns and almost got killed by the mob
- this is exactly what IHH (which have supported terror groups in the past) wanted. always ask yourself, who has the most to gain from something. they wanted a media circus and sadly, Israel was stupid enough to give it to them.
"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

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And you had every right to board those ships to inspect them.

and if your forces boarded those ships and were almost lynched like this video shows, you would have had every right to respond with force.

Takeover video

let me remind you that:
- Israel said it would transfer all of the supplies to Gaza upon inspection (and it fact, it did so today)
- they boarded the ships with paint guns and almost got killed by the mob
- this is exactly what IHH (which have supported terror groups in the past) wanted. always ask yourself, who has the most to gain from something. they wanted a media circus and sadly, Israel was stupid enough to give it to them.



AND..... from the news link I posted... sounds like a rather normal day in Southern Israel today... yet all this wailing and gnashing of teeth ad nauseum....of "peaceful people" being attacked... give me a freakin BRAKE BREAK;) already

The Israeli-Gaza border was tense following the naval raid.

The Iranian-backed Islamic Jihad said three of its fighters were killed Tuesday shortly after firing rockets into southern Israel. Israeli authorities say the rockets landed in open areas and caused no injuries.

The Israeli military confirmed its airstrike, and Gaza's chief medical examiner also said there were three deaths.

On Tuesday morning, the Israeli military said Gaza militants infiltrated Israel and exchanged fire with troops. Israeli rescue services said two militants were killed, but the military would not immediately confirm that.

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