UDSkyJunkie 0 #26 October 25, 2007 Quote Thank you--very informative. I deleted my post because I already got yelled at No worries, intent was not to yell Actually, the first time I heard that method I thought it was pretty weird too. I strongly opposed the method for a long time before deciding that there were advantages and taking a more moderate stance. Quote I don't agree with one hand on each either, as I know/have seen very poor outcomes to that method, although that argument could go on forever. Actually, I mis-typed my method, and I do use the one hand on each, punch right, punch left method. You are quite correct that the argument could go on forever, as my method has it's own problems. I chose it because it's what I've been taught since I was literally 5 years old, and I can't imagine doing anything else."Some people follow their dreams, others hunt them down and beat them mercilessly into submission." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gemini 0 #27 October 25, 2007 QuoteYou can worry about whether the handles came all the way out or not once the impending danger of dying has been removed. The two jumpers in Texas swore that they felt the risers release and then dumped their reserves into the wad of crap. It is a very, very good idea to sweep the cutaway cables if they don't come out of the housings. Blue skies, Jim Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NeedToJump 0 #28 October 25, 2007 QuoteThe two jumpers in Texas swore that they felt the risers release and then dumped their reserves into the wad of crap. It is a very, very good idea to sweep the cutaway cables if they don't come out of the housings. And this is exactly why people should practice cutting away on the ground with their own gear so they know if the cutaway cable is pulled out completely.Wind Tunnel and Skydiving Coach http://www.ariperelman.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
brettski74 0 #29 October 25, 2007 QuoteQuoteYou can worry about whether the handles came all the way out or not once the impending danger of dying has been removed. The two jumpers in Texas swore that they felt the risers release and then dumped their reserves into the wad of crap. It is a very, very good idea to sweep the cutaway cables if they don't come out of the housings. Can you give more information, please? How far did they pull the cutaway handle? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,476 #30 October 25, 2007 >How far did they pull the cutaway handle? Most likely until they felt something happen (i.e. the first riser disconnected.) People who have never cut away before don't know what it feels like - and may mistake a single riser release for a clean breakaway. However, if you see the cables clear the housings, there is little question that both risers have been cutaway. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
firstime 0 #31 October 25, 2007 had the same question once (how do know if it's all the way out) answer:: throw the damn thing away, then you know it's all the way Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 563 #32 October 26, 2007 This practice of stripping cables dates back to the late 1970s, in Australia. It seems that Parachutes Australia invented SOS to try and idiot-proof emergency procedures. Guess what! Idiots can invent ways to "mess up" faster than engineers can invent solutions. Shortly thereafter, an Australian student pulled an SOS half-way, then gave up. He died. Parachutes Australia responded by publishing diagrams about how to strip cables on SOS. If you think I am being hard on Australians ... HAH! In 1983, one of my IAD students repeated that mistake. He suffered a line-over type malfunction and dragged it for a good minute before doing a half pull on his SOS handle. "Then I felt some resistance, so I quit pulling." He held a stable frog postion until Saint Francis Xavier Chevrier saved his stupid ^%$#@!. These days, some of my students find me rude and politically incorrect when I loudly and angrily discourage "sissy, girly, half-hearted, limp wristed .... pulls on ANY handle." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #33 October 26, 2007 Quote...loudly and angrily discourage "sissy, girly, half-hearted, limp wristed .... pulls on ANY handle." AMEN, brotha.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
frazeebd 0 #34 October 26, 2007 QuoteI do use the one hand on each, punch right, punch left method My DZ teaches the method of two hands on red, get it clear, then two hands on silver method (yeah yeah, look, grab, look etc just don't wanna type it all out). A lot of people around the dropzone talk about the one hand on each handle method... Another new jumper who has about my experience level had a cutaway recently and for some reason abandoned his training and went with the "advice" all the experts talk about and tried pulling cutaway with right and then reserve with left..... well his right hand pulled the pillow halfway out of the velcro and slipped off, but his left hand had a nice thumb hook on the handle and he pulled his reserve handle without his cutaway being pulled.... luckily his reserve deployed ok and he went back and finished his cutaway quick enough that he didn't entangle and dangle. Just thought I'd bring that up.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jacketsdb23 45 #35 October 26, 2007 It seems strange to me that there is even questions about how far to pull the damn handles. I'm not sure if my cutaway cables were completely cleared from the housing but I know that I was falling away from a bad main last month before I pulled the reserve handle. I think this Pulling the cut-away cable all the way out issue is really an awarenss issue. Edited to add: The RSL beat me to the punch...but making sure my main was going away was criteria to pull the reserve. Not checking to see if the cutaway cables cleared the housing. Nobody had to ask me twice to pull hard when the time came.Losers make excuses, Winners make it happen God is Good Beer is Great Swoopers are crazy. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gemini 0 #36 October 26, 2007 QuoteHow far did they pull the cutaway handle? Bill was exactly correct. Both were very new jumpers and felt the first riser release, dropped the cutaway handle, and pulled the reserve. In both cases, the other riser was still connected and the cutaway handle was hanging from the hard housings when we examined the equipment. Although in one instance, it appeared that the jumper actually pulled the cables (between the handle and the hard housing) with her thumb instead of the handle since it was still in the pouch. I don't recall if either had an RSL, but with the one riser still connected it wouldn't have changed anything. Blue skies, Jim Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
daremrc 0 #37 October 26, 2007 QuoteIt seems strange to me that there is even questions about how far to pull the damn handles. I'm not sure if my cutaway cables were completely cleared from the housing but I know that I was falling away from a bad main last month before I pulled the reserve handle. I think this Pulling the cut-away cable all the way out issue is really an awarenss issue.. Well I've never had a cutaway but... It seems to me that after cutting away from only one riser, you would feel almost as if you had dropped into freefall again. Since we are supposd to be looking at our handles and not our risers, you can assume that if you see both ends of your cutaway cable, you know you cut away completely. I understand that there are circumstances when the rings can bind up and not release, even when both cables clear the loops... However for the sake of a FJC-level of learning it's better to positively know that your cables cleared, rather than just pull to arms extension and assume, and/or try to look at your risers before going silver... Just my 2 cents worth.Good judgement comes from experience, and most of that comes from bad judgement. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
UDSkyJunkie 0 #38 October 26, 2007 Quotewell his right hand pulled the pillow halfway out of the velcro and slipped off, but his left hand had a nice thumb hook on the handle and he pulled his reserve handle without his cutaway being pulled.... luckily his reserve deployed ok and he went back and finished his cutaway quick enough that he didn't entangle and dangle. Just thought I'd bring that up.... Yep... that is one of the dangers. strong cutaway forces and backwards punch left/punch right situations can happen also. On the other hand, I know someone who had a spinner on an FX and tried to clear it... after a few seconds too long he realized he was WAY low, and pulled both handles simultaneously (no RSL). His reserve inflated so low he didn't even have time to rear riser flare. If he had pulled one then the other, he'd be dead. My method is not necessarily the "best", just the one I have chosen."Some people follow their dreams, others hunt them down and beat them mercilessly into submission." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
relyon 0 #39 October 26, 2007 FWIW, I've used the one hand per handle method and never had any problems with cables clearing in 9 cutaways. The one time I wanted to cutaway but couldn't, my teammate's cutaway canopy was fouling my left three ring and I doubt it would have released. I had bigger problems the time, being cocooned from the neck down with no access to either the cutaway or the reserve handles, the altimeter, or any hook knives. Fortunately, I had a good canopy and minimal access to the toggles. I posted some related thoughts here a while back. Bob Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
johnboy 0 #40 October 27, 2007 FWIW, I remember reading a letter in Parachutist some time ago from a guy who thought he was about to buy it because he couldn't get his reserve clear and fully inflated due to some specifics I can't now recall (other than he had two canopies out and the main was partially wrapped around him). The thing that really struck me in the letter was that he figured out that his right arm was pinned and was thus unable to get his right hand up to clear his cutaway handle which had apparantly not been pulled all the way. By reaching over with his left hand, he was able to get the cutaway cleared, the main finally released, and he transferred to a reserve that inflated fully just a few hundred feet up. That could make a good argument for both hands on handles, although it seems he didn't necesarily have that option to begin with. Since reading that letter, I practice my handles on the plane before exit first with one hand on each handle, two hands on each handle (look, reach, look, pull, reach, pull), and then also practice both handles with my left hand behind my back, and finally both handles with my right hand behind my back. Perhaps I'm paranoid, but that letter did make my think. On both of my cutaways, btw, I've used one hand on each handle. QuoteIdiots can invent ways to "mess up" faster than engineers can invent solutions. That has to be the best line I've read in these forums yet! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
brianfry713 0 #41 October 27, 2007 You shouldn't be giving packing advice to everyone on these forums with that kind of malfunction record.BASE 1224, Senior Parachute Rigger, CPL ASEL IA, AGI, IGI USPA Coach & UPT Tandem Instructor, PRO, Altimaster Field Support Representative Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #42 October 27, 2007 QuoteYou shouldn't be giving packing advice to everyone on these forums with that kind of malfunction record. Take it personal! Veiled PA removed by slotperfect Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,175 #43 October 27, 2007 I can't clear the cables from the housing without sweeping. On the other hand, I have no problem whatsoever getting the 3-ring released with one pull. I do use both hands (it's funny -- I always practiced with one on each, but I've always cut away with two hands, so now I practice that way). Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
johnboy 0 #44 October 27, 2007 Quote You shouldn't be giving packing advice to everyone on these forums with that kind of malfunction record. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Take it personal! NYASGEM! Who said I'm giving packing advice? Unless your responding to relyon, in which case I'd say CRW guys are nuts. In the highest sense of respect, of course. And if you are responding to me, it takes more than that to get me riled up! In my defense, in retrospect I probably didn't need to cutaway the 2nd one. It was a VERY hard opening (more likely a result of poor body position than packing; Hornet 190s are pretty forgiving) and with camera stuff on my head, I was seeing more than a few stars. I think it was a brake fire and probably could have fixed it quite easily. With a few line twists on top of the brake fire, my head stuck down, passing through 2200 feet with no clear solution to the situation, I made my choice, and I'm still here for everyone to harass me about it. Take at as you will. And to still keep this somewhat on topic, one hand on each handle got things squared away for me just fine. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DougH 270 #45 October 28, 2007 He was talking to Gabor I believe, not you. "The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall" =P Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
johnboy 0 #46 October 28, 2007 Yeah, I figured that after I typed and posted my response, but I'm too lazy to delete it. Oh well. I'm not really paranoid, even though I KNOW all of you think I am.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ltdiver 3 #47 October 28, 2007 QuoteIf you look, pull, peal and look, pull, peal you execute EM procedure 100% sure in the right way under pressure too. On one of my 6 cutaways (spinning horizontal with a camera on my head) I didn't precede the pull by first peeling. Resulted in my losing altitude while I struggled to unmate the velcro from the other side. Luckily I'd pulled higher (being a cameraflyer) and discovered my error in enough spare altitude to peel, then punch. If your velcro's in good shape (as it always should be) you'll think you're getting a hard pull, when in fact you've just skipped a step. ltdiver Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
slotperfect 7 #48 October 28, 2007 [warning] PAs (even in Hungarian) are not allowed in the forums. [/warning]Arrive Safely John Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #49 October 28, 2007 Quote[warning] PAs (even in Hungarian) are not allowed in the forums. [/warning] How about personal attacks? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #50 October 29, 2007 I'm having a Mac attack...does that count?My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
