AFF INSTRUCTORS ADVISE NEEDED

[bernard 0]

To the instructors skydivingcommunity,
I like to have your opinion on the french PAC system, who is similar tot AFF. In the french PAC system you have six jumps, it is not as rigid as the AFF course and is adapted to the student individual needs and progression. Besides providing jump numer one (lvel one) is OK they start jump number two with one instructor. But here is my question some shools make it standard to let the student exit early on, and that from level two on, the plane alone without the instructor holding any grips, free exit like they said. Not all shools, and not all instructors practice that way, but in some shools its standard procedure. In your opinion is a student ready to jump out of a perfectly airplane from jump two on, without instructor holding grips??
By the way some of the french instructors have a very high level and their pac rating is very difficult to obtain. Thank you for responding,
Bernie

[SkymonkeyONE 3]

I'll tell you what. If your country allows students to exit without grips on their second skydive, then the instructors had better be the most capable guys on the planet.

[marks 0]

the student isnt going to learn very quick if you let them exit on there own on the 2nd jump, they will not be flying. they will be tumbleing.

i would say about the 6th jump is ok. if they have got that far, then the little tumbel or flail that they have they should be able to correct it on there own then.

[jlmiracle 7]

I would like to know how the skydives go on those that don't have grips on exit. Hey it might be the best thing. I'm certainly not going to try it but would be intererested to see some of jumps they do without grips.

When we get to the level for the student to exit without grips some say its easier, but then again they already have at least 5 jumps under their belt.

Judy

Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

[marks 0]

ya. post some video!

[nicknitro71 0]

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I'll tell you what. If your country allows students to exit without grips on their second skydive, then the instructors had better be the most capable guys on the planet.

Or the best and most natural students on the planet

Memento Audere Semper

903

[rustywardlow 0]

You might want to check out the Airforce Academy's AM-490 class which puts students out on their first 5 skydives doing 10 second delays with no in air instructors or static line. They have been doing it for years with out a single fatality.

[larsrulz 0]

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You might want to check out the Airforce Academy's AM-490 class which puts students out on their first 5 skydives doing 10 second delays with no in air instructors or static line. They have been doing it for years with out a single fatality.

When I did it (and how they still do it today), we went through about two weeks of training before we jumped. (three weeks for the full course) 5 skydives during 120 hours at the field is far different than a couple hour classroom session, but I still think good training can make stable exits from jump 1. They also don't mess around; grossly unstable exit on your first jump and you aren't going up again, and the vast majority of people get through the course.

I got a strong urge to fly, but I got no where to fly to. -PF

[bernard 0]

To the instructors USPA SKYDIVE COMMUNITY:
First let me tell you that I learned by AFF in Empuria Brava under the requirements of the USPA which was a wonderful and safe way to learn with great instructors. But I was stunned when a couple of years later I took some information in France for my daughter, I could not believe it, free exit on the second jump, providing jump one with two instructors was Ok;I asked for a video and I can refer to that video, you can find it by clicking the following links:
google.be than
wuza (le portail parachutisme)
next you look for "liens" in the right corner of the screen
than you click ecole tradi/pac
than www.absolute-sky.com/index
than click video in the left part of the screen
and than pub/ stage/pac 3.MO
don't forget to install dvx.
I hope you can find the demo of the pac stage and you will clearly see on the video (niveau 2 / level 2)
a free exit on the back.

Hereby I mention that would it be my daughter, who is learning, I have the utmost confidence in the pac as well as in the aff system that for me are both safe and that for me is the most important.
Bernie

[BIGUN 1,053]

Does anyone know where one can obtain a copy of the Air Force Academy's AM-490 ground training curriculum?

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[marks 0]

dont they get wind tunnel time too before they ever go up?

[Ron 7]

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You might want to check out the Airforce Academy's AM-490 class which puts students out on their first 5 skydives doing 10 second delays with no in air instructors or static line. They have been doing it for years with out a single fatality.

The difference is that in the AF program the student does not have an Instructor at all.

It seems in this program that it is AFF with a free flown launch.

That is a big difference. The AF program is like the SL of old in that respect.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[aerohaga 0]

This might get you started-
http://atlas.usafa.af.mil/rotc/ops/490lessonplan.doc

For my part, I know nothing with any certainty,
But the sight of the stars makes me dream.
-Vincent Van Gogh

[larsrulz 0]

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dont they get wind tunnel time too before they ever go up?

Nope, not a bit. Just two weeks of fairly intense ground school.

I got a strong urge to fly, but I got no where to fly to. -PF

[BIGUN 1,053]

Thank you!!

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[Kris 0]

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You might want to check out the Airforce Academy's AM-490 class which puts students out on their first 5 skydives doing 10 second delays with no in air instructors or static line. They have been doing it for years with out a single fatality.

Besides what everyone else has added, SkymonkeyONE did (may still be) happen to be a MFFI (Military Freefall Instructor).

Sky, Muff Bro, Rodriguez Bro, and
Bastion of Purity and Innocence!™

[Miami 0]

In the 490 program we put students out on a 10 sec delay and it is a solo jump. They get about 35 hours of ground school before they touch an aircraft and they do not get any tunnel time prior to their jumps. The ground school during the summer courses are 3 and a half days long, each day is about 10 hours. During the school year their ground course is spread out over a two week period with 2 hours a few days during the week and 10 hours on Saturdays.
We do have a fair number of student who have trouble maintaining stability, but most students do very well. The pass rate is about 90%, give or take 5%.
If you have any questions about the 490 course feel free to PM me or search the forums, I know there have been previous posts about us.
Hope this helps...

Miami

[Miami 0]

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The difference is that in the AF program the student does not have an Instructor at all.

What do you mean? The students don't have individual instructors but an instructor accompanies them in the A/C and put them out individually.

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It seems in this program that it is AFF with a free flown launch.

That is a big difference. The AF program is like the SL of old in that respect.

Our 490 students use the same door position, give the same count, and are held in the door identical to an AFF student (minus the outside JM).

Hope this helps...

Miami

[skydiverton 0]

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I'll tell you what. If your country allows students to exit without grips on their second skydive, then the instructors had better be the most capable guys on the planet.

For what I've seen in france.

Most french AFF instructors (PAC-moniteur) have performed several years in the french RW4 or 8 team.
French instructor licence is the hardest to get in europe.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Using your droque to gain stability is a bad habit,
Especially when you are jumping a sport rig

[bernard 0]

In reply what skydiverton is writing it can be explained why the jumpmasters Pac can let their students exit free the plane from the second jump on (high standards of qualification). Although tey (Jm) can do it ,not every student is ready mentally to exit free from the second jump on.... That statement is based of information given by the JM 's PAC.

[Ron 7]

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In Reply To
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The difference is that in the AF program the student does not have an Instructor at all.

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What do you mean? The students don't have individual instructors but an instructor accompanies them in the A/C and put them out individually.

On an AFF jump I can help a student in freefall, in the French program they can help the student....(If they can get to them), in the Air Force program once the student goes....All you can do is watch.

Since in the AF program the Instructor cannot stabalize or pull for the studet it is more like the S/L program than AFF or the french method.

See in the french method it seems that they let the student do a freefly launch, but the Instructor still has to be there to help. In the AF program the Student has no help after exit.

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Our 490 students use the same door position, give the same count, and are held in the door identical to an AFF student (minus the outside JM).

They also do not have an Instructor to help in freefall. And that is the difference.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[riggerrob 558]

Remember that the US Air Force Academy uses Cypres AADs in their reserves and FXC 12000 MAIN AADs to increase confidence levels when they drop solo students.
This differs little from old-school military freefall as taught in places like the Canadian Airborne Center.

The other issue is pre-screening. US Air Force cadets are pre-screened, so that only the best and
brightest enter the Academy.
And from what I understand, only the best and brightest French students are allowed to study PAC.

This parrellels French universities, where only the best and brightest are admitted, then they are heavily subsidized.
This is the opposite of Canadian universities, who will admit almost anyone who graduated from high school, but expect students to support themselves while paying large amounts for books, tuition, etc. Since the different entrance requirements have not been explained to Quebec university students, they routinely go on strike, demanding the same level of subsidization as their French counterparts.
Silly peasants!

[riggerrob 558]

In comparison, the Canadian Progressive Freefall Program involves 5 levels with PFF Instructors.
The first two PFF dives are done with 2 instructors. On the second level, the reserve side instructor releases shortly after exit and flies around to provide a heading reference while the student learns how to turn.
Students must pull - on their own, at a reasonable altitude, while stable, etc. - twice before any PFF Instructor will let them freefall without grips.
Level 3 is an optional release dive - with one instructor - and level 5 starts with a no-contact exit.

Also remember that PFF has both pre-levels and post-levels. Most Canadian DZs insist on students demonstrating a couple of good IAD jumps before they are introduced to PFF Instructors.
After completing all 5 levels of PFF, students do a few more jumps with CSPA Coaches to complete the solo skills required for their Solo Certificate (minimum 10 jumps). Then PFF graduates do more jumps with CSPA Coaches to complete the list of skills for their A Certificate (minimum 25 jumps).

[cbain 0]

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Hope this helps...
Miami_____________
Reserve repacks:
Racers - $35
Everything else - $90

[off topic]Sorry, this is off-topic - but if the above is true then you're the first rigger besides my husband that charges less for a Racer repack then other rigs, that I know of at least. I think he (my husband) does it just to rib everyone that is always making fun of us for jumping Racers in the first place. [/off topic]

Continue...

Christina

[Spizzzarko 0]

Mike has this unnatural love for Racers and Precision canopy's. There have been several of us who have tried to bring him away from the darkside, but the force is to strong for him. If he wasn't married, I think he would probably sleep with his rig, like some people sleep with an extra pillow to put their arms around.