Ron

Thanks Rich.... And this is the issue, they KNOW that it will not be self supporting. At least one Ambassador has stated he wants more money from the USPA. Exactly. This is not about a museum, this is about giving money to a private organization with a questionable plan (or at least a plan that seems poor because of a lack of communication). And that money we sure as hell could use in other areas that are DIRECTLY in line with the charter of the USPA, like helping our teams or airport defense. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

People YOU claim are ignorant about the subject... While you yourself admit to be ignorant on the subject, but defend it. You just broke the irony meter. Like I said, people bring valid complaints and instead of discussing the issue they brought, you insult them. You even admit you are doing it. Discussing the topic with you is a waste of time, you only insult those you disagree with and avoid the actual issues - Out. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Now who would that be? Bob Lewis. Here is that thread: https://www.facebook.com/rook.nelson/posts/10156865826656532?comment_id=10156866132706532 Bold by me.... That was six weeks ago and not a single set of numbers from him. And from Bob: So we have an "ambassador" flat out saying he hopes more money comes from the USPA. His last reply: Basically, a "ambassador" insulting people, saying he hopes the USPA provides more funding, that he would provide information and didn't, and that said if I wanted information I would have to "educate myself".... But not providing the information he said he would supply. Hard to educate yourself when the people who claim to know the answers and say they will provide them refuse to provide them. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Some of us do. ***That lack of information does not mean there is a problem, it just means the information isn't public. Which most of us would not care about if we were not paying for it, and potentially on the hook for paying more for it in the future. If there is not information.... Then it IS a failure of the museum to communicate to gather support. I asked one of the "Ambassadors" and they said "If you wanted information, you should have traveled to Zhills and asked about it there during the event." So if I wanted information, I had to travel and pay to attend one of their events? Again, if I was not paying for it.... I'd actually agree with him. But since they are getting USPA membership dollars, then I say the USPA members should be informed and not blown off. You are not the only one with project management experience. I’ve never seen so many people get this upset over spilled milk. I have never seen someone this defensive over spilled milk. People have brought valid concerns about membership funds being wasted and all you have done is attack them for it. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Some of us do. Which most of us would not care about if we were not paying for it, and potentially on the hook for paying more for it in the future. If there is not information.... Then it IS a failure of the museum to communicate to gather support. I asked one of the "Ambassadors" and they said "If you wanted information, you should have traveled to Zhills and asked about it there during the event." So if I wanted information, I had to travel and pay to attend one of their events? Again, if I was not paying for it.... I'd actually agree with him. But since they are getting USPA membership dollars, then I say the USPA members should be informed and not blown off. You are not the only one with project management experience. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Look at the start date here: http://apps.sos.wv.gov/business/charities/detail.aspx?OrgID=6786 01/01/1972 Or here: http://skydivingmuseum.org/trustees "Established the American Museum of Sport Parachuting and Air Safety in 1972 as a not-for-profit corporation, which is now the International Skydiving Museum & Hall of Fame" Or you could look at this: http://www.skyxtreme.com/archive/march2000/features.html "The AMSPAS, incorporated in 1986 as a 501(c)(3) not-for-profit association" Here is a thread from 2003: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=333816;search_string=Museum;#333816 The Hall of Fame was started in 2010 So it was started in 1972. The name changed in 1986. Then it was added to in 2010. Few other details. It lists the primary address as the USPA HQ. The mailing address seems to be a UPS store in Port Orange FL... Next to Spruce Creek SCUBA. Actually been there, not even an office, just a UPS store. https://www.corporationwiki.com/p/2zee77/international-skydiving-museum-hall-of-fame-corporation Bill Ottley donated money in 1972. The USPA and the PIA gave them (IIRC) 25K each as seed money in 1986. The USPA has given it 300K dollars in support OVER THE LAST 25 YEARS. http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_attachment;postatt_id=150716; They have been talking about the "Experience" for 10 years: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3310144;search_string=USPA%20Museum;#3310144 It was supposed to be next to the USPA... Didn't happen. Now it is supposed to be next to a tunnel... That does not yet have plans to be built. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Never said it was. I said it was not something the USPA should be funding. I am not alone in that thought: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=334066#334066 That whole thread actually has some really good points. This whole thing goes back to before 2002. The PIA and the USPA each gave matching grants of 25K to the "The American Museum of Sport Parachuting." The American Museum of Sport Parachuting was established in *1986*. And as of 2018, we still have no museum. I have friends that bought "bricks" for the museum. The museum has still not been built. I have no issue at all with a museum. I just don't want the USPA to waste money on it. I'd rather the USPA work on airport access issues and lobbying efforts to support skydiving. Maybe focus on better student programs, better gear, support the National teams, ensure the insurance is still available. Here is a thought, maybe spend some money on jump pilot training? Maybe work on reducing these types of accidents: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=4895519;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unread I think if a private entity wants to run a museum for..... Well, anything, they should do whatever they want. If you want to spend membership money on it, then you should ask the membership. Not a difficult concept. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

What evidence do you have of rigs not opening in time? See post #4 That's it? --Mark It was enough for the USPA to ask the PIA to do a study. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

What evidence do you have of rigs not opening in time? --Mark See post #4 "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Huh, exact same thing I am feeling. Maybe you should have the USPA look into failure of TSO'd rigs to open in time? Maybe you should ask why the USPA is buying into a museum with general funds from the membership? Maybe look into making the Group Member program actually something useful or try to get rid of it. Or you could just continue to claim you personally know nothing of the issues (in spite of you positing on the topics before). "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Oh, so my comment was actually 100% true. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

They did release a report.... https://www.pia.com/images/rocketlauncher/PDF/TECHNICAL_REPORTS/PIA-TR-401LowReserveOpeningInvestigationReport91316.pdf It took 6 years and they claimed raising pull altitudes would be a good idea. Of course, this didn't solve the RIG issue. And the USPA raised the altitude two or three years prior claiming it was to allow AAD manufacturers to increase activation altitudes.... That has yet to happen. So no real report on the RIG issue. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Well, you didn't add IN THAT TIME till now. But in any case, I have provided an example that I knew about, and I was not even on the BOD... I'll mention that YOU also posted in that very thread. So you knew about the issue at one time... I think you were post #39. Should I also take note that you are on the BOD, and thus can not be expected to be impartial when opining? And yet we still have not solved the rig issue. And like I said, you see any older AAD's now made with higher opening altitudes? Strawman. My point was the USPA instead of really looking into the issue of TSO'd rigs no longer working as the original TSO required, just caved and raised pull altitudes.... Claiming it was to allow higher AAD activation, yet I have not seen CYPRES or VIGIL raise activation altitudes. I see no reason to believe that the USPA has not put other interests over the general membership... Another example? https://skydiveuspa.wordpress.com/2011/11/30/refocusing-the-u-s-parachute-team-sponsorship-program/ "What we weren’t able to predict was the opposition of some of our members to the idea. Some saw that the USPA would be helping the U.S. Team compete with demo teams for air show business." Then we can add in the current museum debacle. So when a guy says he has seen the USPA amend reports to protect manufacturers.... I can believe it. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

You could start here: http://www.dropzone.com/forum/Skydiving_C1/General_Skydiving_Discussions_F18/USPA_and_PIA_Issue_Joint_Skydiver_Advisory_P3833943 In particular, John Sherman's response (post #2) One of the things asked for in the advisory was for the PIA to "to collect and review relevant data, to work within the industry in order to identify any trends or specific causes and to make any relevant recommendations. " Read post #11... From the advisory "Research shows that in the past 10 years there has been about one fatality per year in the U.S. in which, for uncertain reasons, the jumpers struck the ground without a fully functional reserve parachute after apparent reserve activation at a sufficient altitude. Although most of these incidents occurred after the automatic activation device (AAD) initiated reserve deployment, others occurred after a manual reserve ripcord pull or activation by a reserve static line (RSL)." From John, "The AAD's all show firing at 750+/- and the reserve didn't work. " And might want to read post #70. This might provide some reading: https://skydiveuspa.wordpress.com/category/uspa/ "Finally, USPA isn’t ignoring the tight-rig issue. Back in 2010, USPA formally asked the Parachute Industry Association to research the accidents in which the container design may have infringed on reserve deployment. The PIA committee tasked to do so is also setting up testing protocols to try to identify rig designs and components that have the potential to inhibit reserve deployment. We continue to monitor PIA’s progress and look forward to seeing continued improvement in rig design." So, ever see that report? "And yes, there had been discussions with the AAD manufacturers about a series of too-low (i.e. fatal) reserve deployments following proper AAD activations. With a BSR allowing a 2,000-foot main deployment, the AAD manufacturers did not feel that enough buffer existed for them to raise their baseline activation altitude. Now, a 2,500-foot main deployment BSR provides them that opportunity." So some rigs were now having a problem opening after an AAD fire. Instead of really looking at the rigs, the USPA caved to the manufacturers and raised pull altitudes so AAD's could fire higher and help cover up the problem with tight rigs. You see any higher AAD activation standards? Again, I ask... Ever see that report from the PIA? The USPA asked for it in 2010. This was released in 2016 https://www.pia.com/images/rocketlauncher/PDF/TECHNICAL_REPORTS/PIA-TR-401LowReserveOpeningInvestigationReport91316.pdf In it, the PIA basically said it could not find anything, but instead just asked for higher pull altitudes so AAD's could fire higher. It also states, "Over the last six (6) years of discussion, committee deliberation, bench testing, development of customized load sensors, live testing and the combined efforts of some of the brightest contributors to our industry in modern times, the Committee Members have yet to locate evidence that supports or indicates a systemic or specific equipment design issue." So we had a rash of "new" rigs changed under the same TSO they were originally certified under over time (rumor is that the Vector Micron is STILL under the old Wonderhog TSO) that before didn't have low activation issues... But now do. The USPA asked the PIA to look into it, and before the PIA report came out, the USPA raised pull altitudes.... Just like the PIA suggested, but two or three YEARS before they suggested it. You see anything in that report about looking into container design some more? I mean it goes on about body position and training, but NOT rig design? USPA changing rules to make AAD and rig makers happy and not actually holding the rig manufactures to the standard. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Hey, John, you ever see a final report from the USPA or PIA? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334