1969912 0 #1501 April 23, 2008 FWIW... More info about the commutation of Collin's sentence may be available on the site linked below. There appears to be a (digital?) archive of letters, orders, press releases, etc. from Warren E. Hearnes, the MO governor who issued the Collins order. Below is the Hearnes snippet from the archive site. "Warren Hearnes, 1965-1973 Many documents in the Hearnes papers relate to civil rights activities around the state and across the nation. References to the NAACP, riots, and the Civil Rights Commission are included in the index to these papers. More than correspondence, the collection contains press releases, reports, appointments, and more. Several press releases refer to the assassination of Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. in 1968; one extends sympathy to his family, the other details an extradition request for James Earl Ray from London, England. Ray was an escapee from the Missouri State Penitentiary at the time of the assassination." http://www.sos.mo.gov/archives/resources/africanamerican/guide/rg003.asp ---------- "Once we got to the point where twenty/something's needed a place on the corner that changed the oil in their cars we were doomed . . ." -NickDG Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyjack71 0 #1502 April 23, 2008 Quote Here's an image of the commutation order for John Collins. I will try to post a better image later. No time now. EDIT: The image came from Mrs. Weber. I just resized it and posted. Thank You, I tried and tried - it was easier to let some one else do it. By the way that composite that Ckret sent in is not an official composite and was provided by none other than the Mayfield people. NOT by WITNESSES.Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Erroll 49 #1503 April 23, 2008 QuoteErroll thanks for the reply. My response is that it may not be so easy. I was being facetious, trying to illustrate how anyone can come up with any number of theories. Some folk here enjoy playing 'super sleuth', while others seem to feel superior with their detective work. For example, all this stuff about float time is about as important as the float time of the load Cooper dropped in the lavatory. Whether (some of)the money floated for 10 years, ending up on the beach, or whether the baby-delivering stork dropped the money on the beach, neither is of any consequence and will prove absolutely nothing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Orange1 0 #1504 April 23, 2008 Quote By the way that composite that Ckret sent in is not an official composite and was provided by none other than the Mayfield people. NOT by WITNESSES. I may have missed this or forgotten it somewhere along the line - has anyone posted a pic of mayfield here? Those composites all look close enough to the original witness sketch that was released as far as i'm concerned - we've had enough posts from people who deal with these things regularly that sketches are very seldom extremely accurate. I for one would like to see a pic of mayfield side by side with any of those sketches. Not sure why things provided by "the Weber people" must be accepted and those provided by "the Mayfield people" should be dismissed. At least not by those with open minds.Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Canopus 0 #1505 April 23, 2008 There is a very good chance that Cooper is dead, but there are problems with this theory like anything else. There is so much BS in this case that one needs to have wings to stay above it. Why can't we just assume he survived it for the sake of argument and work some possible scenarios? What would that hurt?? So would if he did survive and escaped description and went on with his life, jumping at his DZ etc. ?? How would that be possible?? Low profile....poor description...smarter than the FBI ??? It's all possible, and any combo, so where do we start? IDK, but that's certainly a question I'd have had for the FBI in the early 70's. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
maurico 0 #1506 April 23, 2008 I'm looking for evidence against the proposition that Cooper was a novice jumper. If care to apply yourself to the task, I'd love to hear it. I don't have a view on what actually happened. That's why I would like to see all the evidence. Cheerio then Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Canopus 0 #1507 April 23, 2008 No evidence. Just that it's probable that Cooper died that night. However....to this day NO evidence of that whatsoever. So the question is, who on earth would pull a stunt like this as a novice? Too damn many other ways to take your own life, all of them more direct and effective. If that's the goal, why even ask for a ransom? Seems to me, just on the surface, we're looking for someone down on his luck that needs a quick score. A "FIX" if you will and is willing to gamble for it. The "gamble" is anyone's guess, because if he's not a novice then it's probably less of a gamble than anyone would imagine. Probably dead, but...not so fast. That's just TOO easy right now. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyjack71 0 #1508 April 23, 2008 QuoteFWIW... More info about the commutation of Collin's sentence may be available on the site linked below. There appears to be a (digital?) archive of letters, orders, press releases, etc. from Warren E. Hearnes, the MO governor who issued the Collins order. Below is the Hearnes snippet from the archive site. "Warren Hearnes, 1965-1973 Many documents in the Hearnes papers relate to civil rights activities around the state and across the nation. References to the NAACP, riots, and the Civil Rights Commission are included in the index to these papers. More than correspondence, the collection contains press releases, reports, appointments, and more. Several press releases refer to the assassination of Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. in 1968; one extends sympathy to his family, the other details an extradition request for James Earl Ray from London, England. Ray was an escapee from the Missouri State Penitentiary at the time of the assassination." Quote Needless to say - I have been very busy tonight. I did not find what I needed, but have the information to contact Missouri State - tomorrow - thanks to you. I did find two names that are listed in the 1960's that I found interesting. One of these names appeared in a high profile case. Since there are no ages or birthdates given - what is in a name? I do not know if I can access his records - since they are under John Collins. I do not see that they should be confidencial since he is deceased. In Regards to Composites: We did a cross of the composites in the other thread or this one - we used the old Rose composites and the new composites. BEAR IN MIND - NOT one witness has ever stated that the hairline had any indications of a widows peak. Nor was ANY hair ever mentioned extending forward in the middle. CKRET: You need to state the records as they stand and not speculate...regarding the description of Cooper. Doing otherwise only spells "cover-up" on the part of the FBI.Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites SafecrackingPLF 0 #1509 April 23, 2008 You seem to "miss" a lot. That's okay, I can continue posting photos over and over again if you like. Please see attached. Ckret, that's quite a crafty person who came up with the hybrid sketch. A graphic artist of some sort? Skyjack71, where did you get the idea that a Mayfield person did the sketch? As you can see, the hybrid is a statistical tie between Mayfield & Christiansen, but loses to Weber by a whopping 15%. Weber's beat Cook's suspect by 20% when compared to the 72 sketch. I've yet to see any suspect beat Weber against any sketch, including Bing Crosby, Schaffner 88, Rose 72, or this hybrid. It's still fun to play around with it though. Jumpin Jan, What makes you think I'm out to "prove" anything? All I said was that I cannot pinpoint an entry location for the money. The cash is a huge, enormous mystery that deserves much more attention than it has had in the last 28 yrs. What I did say was that I did not feel the proposed container would really fit what we know, but that's what I would like to determine (if it can be determined). Ckret, please, pretty please... let me know ASAP when you hear something regarding the bag. Guru312, your efforts are admirable, but I'd rather believe what actually happened and I'll take the word of people like Himmelsbach, the file, and the person who packed the money over some guy theorizing about a case he knows very little about. happythoughts, one thing I'll never quite understand is why people here try to argue things that really have no importance and often times the people arguing have no basis for doing so. Case in point, "Placing 3 mph as a maximum is unrealistic for a period of years". Could you please tell me what is a reasonable range of velocities? Since this has been looked up, I can tell you that the high end velocity is around 3 mph, but obviously that's "unrealistic". Another case in point, "If 150 homes were pushed 40 miles, a bag of cash could be easily moved by a smaller flood/storm." You're arguing something that has nothing to do with what I said. There's no point in arguing this. I never said the money cannot be moved by water, what I said is we need to figure out how the money washed up. Two totally different things with totally different parameters. Cool stuff posted here the last few days! I think this thread has life and I think things are progressing forward really well from what I can see. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites happythoughts 0 #1510 April 23, 2008 The money in the sand. There is a lot of posts that try to establish linkage between the location of the money and Coopers exit point. My point is that the money could have been on the bottom of a river upstream for 3 years, then one good rain could create enough flow to push it for miles down a tributary to its final location. Its final location has little to do with Coopers exit point. These types of flows occur all the time. They push logs and branches downstream. The current pushes a log into an area of slower current and the log is deposited 5 miles from its original entry point. A small bag of cash would travel almost effortlessly by comparison. Anyone who spends time in a canoe will tell you how quickly a stream can change shape due to the movement of sand. An 18" layer of sand takes no time to deposit. A normal storm flow, followed by regular sand movement, would easily explain how a bundle of cash could go 5 miles down a stream and be covered with sand. Your mention of "normal" or "average" water flow does not take into account the very probably NW rainstorm. Your statistics about the "average flow" are not relevant to the discussion. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Orange1 0 #1511 April 23, 2008 happythoughts... there are people for whom experience means nothing compared to formulae written out on pieces of paper, and they are usually so convinced they are right that nothing can change their minds. (the world is littered with examples of them. LTCM is a great one. your storm is probably a 3- or 6-sigma event that just doesn't get captured in their calcs. fwiw your storm story makes a lot of sense to me.) safe, i have read just about every post... as it was posted. however, after between something over 2500 posts spanning a couple of years, there are things i have forgotten. please accept my apologies. i guess it's a bit like jo being convinced she has corrected me on something 3 or 4 times when that is patently not true.Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites happythoughts 0 #1512 April 23, 2008 Quotehappythoughts... there are people for whom experience means nothing compared to formulae written out on pieces of paper, and they are usually so convinced they are right that nothing can change their minds. (the world is littered with examples of them. LTCM is a great one. your storm is probably a 3- or 6-sigma event that just doesn't get captured in their calcs. fwiw your storm story makes a lot of sense to me.) I used the big storm only as an example. Perhaps that confused the issue, but illustrated a fact. The water flow necessary to move a bag is minimal and absolutely common. What brought it to mind was the annual flow of a stream near where I live. It is a 30ft wide stream, 6 in. deep. Almost a ditch. It flows for close to 20 miles. During the summer, it goes from 6 inches to an average depth of 8 ft for a period of 3 months. At some points, 22 ft in depth. The water rapidly moves logs that you cannot lift with 4 people. Every year, it moves many tons of sand around. Some small limbs travel for 15 miles and then past my area for another 15 to the Gulf. Something that entered the stream could travel 30 miles before settling. This is common, natural stream flow everywhere. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites SafecrackingPLF 0 #1513 April 23, 2008 Do either of you two guys actually FOLLOW what's been laid out in this case? I'm just wondering. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and everyone deserves to have one... I would just LOVE to know how you two guys support your opinions. Happy, There's no link between exit point and where the money was found. Further, there's confounding problems in assuming the money got there in 1971. Tributaries are highly dependent upon WHERE the jump occured and the possible travel routes of the cash, none of which equates (ie, not possible). Orange, I don't know why you get so mad when I use mathematic calculations. If you want posts without calculations, then look my posts with the maps of all the creeks and then look at where the money was found and then look at where the jump occured and enlighted us all on how it's possible. Again, I would love to hear it, but please don't knock me because I happen to throw in a mathematic equation that you didn't like. My experience or inexperience has pretty much NOTHING to do with any of my standpoints, so please deal with what's been laid out and not necessarily the red herrings you love to attack so much. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites SafecrackingPLF 0 #1514 April 23, 2008 QuoteYour statistics about the "average flow" are not relevant to the discussion. Forgive me, I should have never mentioned it in the first place. But, I am very perplexed why you chose to attack the velocity of the Columbia River... it seems a little... pointless. If you don't understand what I will attempt to do (and I don't even know if it's possible) then there's really no reason to argue against something that has little relevance to anything. Do you understand what the 18 inches of sand was in reference to? I only ask because you really got defensive about it and it seemed to me that you didn't quite understand the significance of it. The 18 inches of sand is only relevant in reference to a 1974 strata identified in the sand. That's how much sand was on top of the strata, and the money was found at the top. What this has to do with whatever it is you're trying to argue, I don't quite understand, but feel free to go for it, whatever it is you're trying to do. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jumpin_Jan 1 #1515 April 23, 2008 What makes you think I'm out to "prove" anything? I think that because you are conducting 'experiments' to determine float time(s). I think proving things is a good idea!!! I think your static experiments do not represent dynamic conditions at all. I don't think floating is even necessary. When you determine the float time I will ask how much it weighs underwater. (need data on TDS, specific gravity ranges, PH, etc.) Then we can calculate aproximate sunken friction and forces needed to overcome same. (weight/Surface area/flowrate) The flowrate to include 0-whatever max is in steepest gully during 'gully washer'. Then we add in dynamic uneven surface on bottom and calculate turbulence. Then we add in debris like logs, sticks, and leaves in the fall. I don't think we/I/or you can get any more precise than upstream within the watershed somewhere Nature managed to move tons of sand to the same spot from the same watershed. A more general answer to the question of "why do you think..." I am in the _not_ DW camp and I naturally question the data that is or can be misused to support that theory. I don't expect or demand that you agree with me though. PULL! jumpin_Jan"Dangerous toys are fun but ya could get hurt" -- Vash The Stampede Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Guru312 0 #1516 April 23, 2008 Quote I think your static experiments do not represent dynamic conditions at all. ... I don't think floating is even necessary. ... I don't think we/I/or you can get any more precise than upstream within the watershed somewhere Nature managed to move tons of sand to the same spot from the same watershed. ... Thanks for consolidating, better than I've done over many months, the more plausible aspects of this case. Exit point, live or die or who DB really is can't be determined with the scant evidence available at the present time. Simple as that. DB tied the money bag with 550 cord. Money was found. Occam's Razor helps me think that the tied money bag finally, after many years, deteriorated and packs of money entered the water without the protection of the tied canvas bag. A boy found some of the money. We know almost nothing beyond the above. I keep wondering why I read this dang thread 2-3 times a day!!Guru312 I am not DB Cooper Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Sluggo_Monster 0 #1517 April 24, 2008 I have an expression I use sometimes, it goes like this: “The world is a tuxedo and I’m a pair of brown shoes!” I use it to express that I’m feeling like I stand out in a crowd. So, no wonder that something I read today caught my attention. Dave Krajicek special correspondent for the New York Daily News says of D.B. Cooper’s appearance; "Wearing apparel: Black suit; white shirt; narrow black tie; black dress suit; black rain-type overcoat or dark top coat; dark briefcase or attaché case; carried paper bag; brown shoes." Ckret: Is that true? Especially the part about "brown shoes". Sluggo_Monster Web Page Blog NORJAK Forum Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ltdiver 3 #1518 April 24, 2008 QuoteI have an expression I use sometimes, it goes like this: “The world is a tuxedo and I’m a pair of brown shoes!” I use it to express that I’m feeling like I stand out in a crowd. So, no wonder that something I read today caught my attention. Dave Krajicek special correspondent for the New York Daily News says of D.B. Cooper’s appearance; "Wearing apparel: Black suit; white shirt; narrow black tie; black dress suit; black rain-type overcoat or dark top coat; dark briefcase or attaché case; carried paper bag; brown shoes." Ckret: Is that true? Especially the part about "brown shoes". Sluggo_Monster Ckret's facts from the locked thread on Cooper's garb: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3085793;search_string=brown%20shoes;#3085793 ltdiver Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ltdiver 3 #1519 April 24, 2008 Quote I keep wondering why I read this dang thread 2-3 times a day!! You need something to eat your popcorn with? Did you notice to two new posters (to this thread) who last night started to try and battle each other over things we discussed 2 years ago? ltdiver Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skyjack71 0 #1520 April 24, 2008 Safecrack - don't let these guys get you down - they obviously do not have the expertise to do these analysis themselves and it is just easier to knock theories around and knock the hard work of others. I chose your post to answer because it seemed like you needed a little support right now. When I get through with this post I will need some support, but I don't expect it. This post is in relation to the Commutation of Sentence for John C. Collins. I have been talking to Missouri State today and I am reporting what I have to date for those who ARE interested. The state is unable to determine why John Collins’ sentence was commuted. The commutation files from the Hearnes papers found Collins listed on a February 1968 discharge list (showing that he was released with 323 days of merit time), but did not find any supporting documents. He is just a name on a list. They are checking the penitentiary register books to find out what court he was sentenced from. There are no copies of circuit court case files (which might have information such as his attorney and where he was arrested), but if the case file is unavailable they might be able to tell me where to look for it. I hope to know more than this by the wks end. If this information IS NOT AVAILABLE then his records were purged......WHY? When the records of others are available and Collins/Weber is not - there had to be intervention by higher sources. I know that most of you do NOT BUY the INVOLVEMENT FACTOR that I throw out (not conspiracy). But the more obscure the files are of Collins/Weber the more this seems a probability. If he did indeed snitch on James Earl Ray - this should not be a hidden factor - all of the parties have deceased. Therefore one would have to believe that what Duane did goes beyond a mere snitching. Facts: l. When in prison Ray sold foriegn comics and mag. 2.James Earl Ray escapes. 3. James Earl Ray and Duane's common law spouses lived together for a short period 4. Duane is released for Jefferson City early 5. Three wks later MLK is assinated. 6. James Earl Ray get a call from a Mr. Collins at a bar he is working at in CA. 7. Weber gets a call in 1982 and makes a run to Memphis to retrive something...hidden in the wall behind a bathroom mirror. 8. In 1986 a rifle which had been hidden appears in our home - the very same kind of rifle that killed MLK. It had at one time had a scope on it. 9. 1988 - our home is robbed and the first thing Duane does is look for the rifle - yet there were other things taken of far more value. He does NOT list the rifle on the theft report. 10. 1990 - Duane revives John Collins out of fear or purpose...at great risk to himself...the Highway Patrol did not know that he did succeed in his endeavor to obtain the drivers license for John Collins. 11. Why did he need that ID.- For access to a Lock Box perhaps - Money appears at that time - his SS was not much and the business wasn't making any money - no one ever came in - was that a front to show income we needed to live off of those last 5 yrs? I am sure that not all of the above is considered fact by most of you, but I do because I lived with the man and the very fact that I have NEVER told all I have found and was told to me. None of this has anything to do with COOPER, but it has EVERYTHING to do WITH COOPER. It may be the WHY. This is not a puzzle - it is the WHY. WHY did Cooper leave the tie - because it was not his tie - it was a statement. Put a picture of that TIE and CLASP on the front page of a National Magazine. That CLASP WAS NOT a common item. Somewhere there is a picture of its true owner wearing it...and he wasn't Cooper. I called another man CRAZY when he told me some things yrs ago - I have since apologized to him, but let him know that he did DRESS the truth a LOT. There were 2 parts of his story I could NOT explain away. This Commutation of Sentence made these 2 parts of his story creditable. If the documentation has conveniently disappeared then - I guess it is just another story among the many tales told over the yrs regarding the 60's and all of the cover-ups that our government did in the name of "Freedom".Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites AggieDave 6 #1521 April 24, 2008 Wait, now your supposed "DB Cooper" lover knew the person who assassinated MLK? Then you imply that he retrieved the rifle that killed him? Did he also work on the soundstage that faked the moon landing? Or did he perhaps work on the large underground complex at Denver International? Maybe he piloted a black helicopter, but that was after he was a farmer in Roswell? This is just far too much, the sort of thing that MHMR workers write down on their interview notes. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites quade 3 #1522 April 24, 2008 I said it before . . . this is a path that is simply ridiculous.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Orange1 0 #1523 April 24, 2008 Quote Orange, I don't know why you get so mad when I use mathematic calculations. Not mad, more frustrated. Because you seem to hang everything on them to the exclusion of anything else. Like you keep on coming back to the match of a sketch despite the fact that it has been pointed out that you are using the software for a purpose for which it was not designed. The discussion about forces on exit is another case in point. You thought it was a "simple mathematical calc". Experienced guys told you otherwise. (You surely could model it, but not the way you did.) I'm just saying... there is more that happens and you don't seem to want to accept that. You spend a lot of time on maths and maps. You don't seem to even want to contemplate that the fact that Cooper may or may not have survived the jump in the first place would probably depend on how experienced or otherwise he was. Sure, if someone really wanted to take the time to model a probability distribution of that it could probably be done, but wouldn't really mean a damn thing at the end of the day because there is no way of knowing if Cooper would be the mean or the fat tail of the distribution. Like Guru I wonder why I bother coming back and checking this when things just go round and round. Especially 2 people who claim to be objective but clearly are anything but.Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Orange1 0 #1524 April 24, 2008 What I don't understand is this: If Duane had time to run all over the country doing all sorts of things over a period of many years, why on earth did he never go back and retrieve the money from the bucket in anything resembling a reasonable time given the huge incentive of nearly $200K in 1971 money? That seems a pretty big hole in the argument to me.Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites maurico 0 #1525 April 24, 2008 Yes there are several open loops in the case that no-one seems able to close without extra evidence. From what I've seen here a lot of work has gone into it but we ain't much closer.... I have: No book to publish No axe to grind No pet theory I'd never heard of Cooper until they found the chute recently (and yes I know its not his) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 Next Page 61 of 2541 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 47 47 Go To Topic Listing
SafecrackingPLF 0 #1509 April 23, 2008 You seem to "miss" a lot. That's okay, I can continue posting photos over and over again if you like. Please see attached. Ckret, that's quite a crafty person who came up with the hybrid sketch. A graphic artist of some sort? Skyjack71, where did you get the idea that a Mayfield person did the sketch? As you can see, the hybrid is a statistical tie between Mayfield & Christiansen, but loses to Weber by a whopping 15%. Weber's beat Cook's suspect by 20% when compared to the 72 sketch. I've yet to see any suspect beat Weber against any sketch, including Bing Crosby, Schaffner 88, Rose 72, or this hybrid. It's still fun to play around with it though. Jumpin Jan, What makes you think I'm out to "prove" anything? All I said was that I cannot pinpoint an entry location for the money. The cash is a huge, enormous mystery that deserves much more attention than it has had in the last 28 yrs. What I did say was that I did not feel the proposed container would really fit what we know, but that's what I would like to determine (if it can be determined). Ckret, please, pretty please... let me know ASAP when you hear something regarding the bag. Guru312, your efforts are admirable, but I'd rather believe what actually happened and I'll take the word of people like Himmelsbach, the file, and the person who packed the money over some guy theorizing about a case he knows very little about. happythoughts, one thing I'll never quite understand is why people here try to argue things that really have no importance and often times the people arguing have no basis for doing so. Case in point, "Placing 3 mph as a maximum is unrealistic for a period of years". Could you please tell me what is a reasonable range of velocities? Since this has been looked up, I can tell you that the high end velocity is around 3 mph, but obviously that's "unrealistic". Another case in point, "If 150 homes were pushed 40 miles, a bag of cash could be easily moved by a smaller flood/storm." You're arguing something that has nothing to do with what I said. There's no point in arguing this. I never said the money cannot be moved by water, what I said is we need to figure out how the money washed up. Two totally different things with totally different parameters. Cool stuff posted here the last few days! I think this thread has life and I think things are progressing forward really well from what I can see. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
happythoughts 0 #1510 April 23, 2008 The money in the sand. There is a lot of posts that try to establish linkage between the location of the money and Coopers exit point. My point is that the money could have been on the bottom of a river upstream for 3 years, then one good rain could create enough flow to push it for miles down a tributary to its final location. Its final location has little to do with Coopers exit point. These types of flows occur all the time. They push logs and branches downstream. The current pushes a log into an area of slower current and the log is deposited 5 miles from its original entry point. A small bag of cash would travel almost effortlessly by comparison. Anyone who spends time in a canoe will tell you how quickly a stream can change shape due to the movement of sand. An 18" layer of sand takes no time to deposit. A normal storm flow, followed by regular sand movement, would easily explain how a bundle of cash could go 5 miles down a stream and be covered with sand. Your mention of "normal" or "average" water flow does not take into account the very probably NW rainstorm. Your statistics about the "average flow" are not relevant to the discussion. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Orange1 0 #1511 April 23, 2008 happythoughts... there are people for whom experience means nothing compared to formulae written out on pieces of paper, and they are usually so convinced they are right that nothing can change their minds. (the world is littered with examples of them. LTCM is a great one. your storm is probably a 3- or 6-sigma event that just doesn't get captured in their calcs. fwiw your storm story makes a lot of sense to me.) safe, i have read just about every post... as it was posted. however, after between something over 2500 posts spanning a couple of years, there are things i have forgotten. please accept my apologies. i guess it's a bit like jo being convinced she has corrected me on something 3 or 4 times when that is patently not true.Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
happythoughts 0 #1512 April 23, 2008 Quotehappythoughts... there are people for whom experience means nothing compared to formulae written out on pieces of paper, and they are usually so convinced they are right that nothing can change their minds. (the world is littered with examples of them. LTCM is a great one. your storm is probably a 3- or 6-sigma event that just doesn't get captured in their calcs. fwiw your storm story makes a lot of sense to me.) I used the big storm only as an example. Perhaps that confused the issue, but illustrated a fact. The water flow necessary to move a bag is minimal and absolutely common. What brought it to mind was the annual flow of a stream near where I live. It is a 30ft wide stream, 6 in. deep. Almost a ditch. It flows for close to 20 miles. During the summer, it goes from 6 inches to an average depth of 8 ft for a period of 3 months. At some points, 22 ft in depth. The water rapidly moves logs that you cannot lift with 4 people. Every year, it moves many tons of sand around. Some small limbs travel for 15 miles and then past my area for another 15 to the Gulf. Something that entered the stream could travel 30 miles before settling. This is common, natural stream flow everywhere. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SafecrackingPLF 0 #1513 April 23, 2008 Do either of you two guys actually FOLLOW what's been laid out in this case? I'm just wondering. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and everyone deserves to have one... I would just LOVE to know how you two guys support your opinions. Happy, There's no link between exit point and where the money was found. Further, there's confounding problems in assuming the money got there in 1971. Tributaries are highly dependent upon WHERE the jump occured and the possible travel routes of the cash, none of which equates (ie, not possible). Orange, I don't know why you get so mad when I use mathematic calculations. If you want posts without calculations, then look my posts with the maps of all the creeks and then look at where the money was found and then look at where the jump occured and enlighted us all on how it's possible. Again, I would love to hear it, but please don't knock me because I happen to throw in a mathematic equation that you didn't like. My experience or inexperience has pretty much NOTHING to do with any of my standpoints, so please deal with what's been laid out and not necessarily the red herrings you love to attack so much. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SafecrackingPLF 0 #1514 April 23, 2008 QuoteYour statistics about the "average flow" are not relevant to the discussion. Forgive me, I should have never mentioned it in the first place. But, I am very perplexed why you chose to attack the velocity of the Columbia River... it seems a little... pointless. If you don't understand what I will attempt to do (and I don't even know if it's possible) then there's really no reason to argue against something that has little relevance to anything. Do you understand what the 18 inches of sand was in reference to? I only ask because you really got defensive about it and it seemed to me that you didn't quite understand the significance of it. The 18 inches of sand is only relevant in reference to a 1974 strata identified in the sand. That's how much sand was on top of the strata, and the money was found at the top. What this has to do with whatever it is you're trying to argue, I don't quite understand, but feel free to go for it, whatever it is you're trying to do. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jumpin_Jan 1 #1515 April 23, 2008 What makes you think I'm out to "prove" anything? I think that because you are conducting 'experiments' to determine float time(s). I think proving things is a good idea!!! I think your static experiments do not represent dynamic conditions at all. I don't think floating is even necessary. When you determine the float time I will ask how much it weighs underwater. (need data on TDS, specific gravity ranges, PH, etc.) Then we can calculate aproximate sunken friction and forces needed to overcome same. (weight/Surface area/flowrate) The flowrate to include 0-whatever max is in steepest gully during 'gully washer'. Then we add in dynamic uneven surface on bottom and calculate turbulence. Then we add in debris like logs, sticks, and leaves in the fall. I don't think we/I/or you can get any more precise than upstream within the watershed somewhere Nature managed to move tons of sand to the same spot from the same watershed. A more general answer to the question of "why do you think..." I am in the _not_ DW camp and I naturally question the data that is or can be misused to support that theory. I don't expect or demand that you agree with me though. PULL! jumpin_Jan"Dangerous toys are fun but ya could get hurt" -- Vash The Stampede Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guru312 0 #1516 April 23, 2008 Quote I think your static experiments do not represent dynamic conditions at all. ... I don't think floating is even necessary. ... I don't think we/I/or you can get any more precise than upstream within the watershed somewhere Nature managed to move tons of sand to the same spot from the same watershed. ... Thanks for consolidating, better than I've done over many months, the more plausible aspects of this case. Exit point, live or die or who DB really is can't be determined with the scant evidence available at the present time. Simple as that. DB tied the money bag with 550 cord. Money was found. Occam's Razor helps me think that the tied money bag finally, after many years, deteriorated and packs of money entered the water without the protection of the tied canvas bag. A boy found some of the money. We know almost nothing beyond the above. I keep wondering why I read this dang thread 2-3 times a day!!Guru312 I am not DB Cooper Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sluggo_Monster 0 #1517 April 24, 2008 I have an expression I use sometimes, it goes like this: “The world is a tuxedo and I’m a pair of brown shoes!” I use it to express that I’m feeling like I stand out in a crowd. So, no wonder that something I read today caught my attention. Dave Krajicek special correspondent for the New York Daily News says of D.B. Cooper’s appearance; "Wearing apparel: Black suit; white shirt; narrow black tie; black dress suit; black rain-type overcoat or dark top coat; dark briefcase or attaché case; carried paper bag; brown shoes." Ckret: Is that true? Especially the part about "brown shoes". Sluggo_Monster Web Page Blog NORJAK Forum Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ltdiver 3 #1518 April 24, 2008 QuoteI have an expression I use sometimes, it goes like this: “The world is a tuxedo and I’m a pair of brown shoes!” I use it to express that I’m feeling like I stand out in a crowd. So, no wonder that something I read today caught my attention. Dave Krajicek special correspondent for the New York Daily News says of D.B. Cooper’s appearance; "Wearing apparel: Black suit; white shirt; narrow black tie; black dress suit; black rain-type overcoat or dark top coat; dark briefcase or attaché case; carried paper bag; brown shoes." Ckret: Is that true? Especially the part about "brown shoes". Sluggo_Monster Ckret's facts from the locked thread on Cooper's garb: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3085793;search_string=brown%20shoes;#3085793 ltdiver Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ltdiver 3 #1519 April 24, 2008 Quote I keep wondering why I read this dang thread 2-3 times a day!! You need something to eat your popcorn with? Did you notice to two new posters (to this thread) who last night started to try and battle each other over things we discussed 2 years ago? ltdiver Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyjack71 0 #1520 April 24, 2008 Safecrack - don't let these guys get you down - they obviously do not have the expertise to do these analysis themselves and it is just easier to knock theories around and knock the hard work of others. I chose your post to answer because it seemed like you needed a little support right now. When I get through with this post I will need some support, but I don't expect it. This post is in relation to the Commutation of Sentence for John C. Collins. I have been talking to Missouri State today and I am reporting what I have to date for those who ARE interested. The state is unable to determine why John Collins’ sentence was commuted. The commutation files from the Hearnes papers found Collins listed on a February 1968 discharge list (showing that he was released with 323 days of merit time), but did not find any supporting documents. He is just a name on a list. They are checking the penitentiary register books to find out what court he was sentenced from. There are no copies of circuit court case files (which might have information such as his attorney and where he was arrested), but if the case file is unavailable they might be able to tell me where to look for it. I hope to know more than this by the wks end. If this information IS NOT AVAILABLE then his records were purged......WHY? When the records of others are available and Collins/Weber is not - there had to be intervention by higher sources. I know that most of you do NOT BUY the INVOLVEMENT FACTOR that I throw out (not conspiracy). But the more obscure the files are of Collins/Weber the more this seems a probability. If he did indeed snitch on James Earl Ray - this should not be a hidden factor - all of the parties have deceased. Therefore one would have to believe that what Duane did goes beyond a mere snitching. Facts: l. When in prison Ray sold foriegn comics and mag. 2.James Earl Ray escapes. 3. James Earl Ray and Duane's common law spouses lived together for a short period 4. Duane is released for Jefferson City early 5. Three wks later MLK is assinated. 6. James Earl Ray get a call from a Mr. Collins at a bar he is working at in CA. 7. Weber gets a call in 1982 and makes a run to Memphis to retrive something...hidden in the wall behind a bathroom mirror. 8. In 1986 a rifle which had been hidden appears in our home - the very same kind of rifle that killed MLK. It had at one time had a scope on it. 9. 1988 - our home is robbed and the first thing Duane does is look for the rifle - yet there were other things taken of far more value. He does NOT list the rifle on the theft report. 10. 1990 - Duane revives John Collins out of fear or purpose...at great risk to himself...the Highway Patrol did not know that he did succeed in his endeavor to obtain the drivers license for John Collins. 11. Why did he need that ID.- For access to a Lock Box perhaps - Money appears at that time - his SS was not much and the business wasn't making any money - no one ever came in - was that a front to show income we needed to live off of those last 5 yrs? I am sure that not all of the above is considered fact by most of you, but I do because I lived with the man and the very fact that I have NEVER told all I have found and was told to me. None of this has anything to do with COOPER, but it has EVERYTHING to do WITH COOPER. It may be the WHY. This is not a puzzle - it is the WHY. WHY did Cooper leave the tie - because it was not his tie - it was a statement. Put a picture of that TIE and CLASP on the front page of a National Magazine. That CLASP WAS NOT a common item. Somewhere there is a picture of its true owner wearing it...and he wasn't Cooper. I called another man CRAZY when he told me some things yrs ago - I have since apologized to him, but let him know that he did DRESS the truth a LOT. There were 2 parts of his story I could NOT explain away. This Commutation of Sentence made these 2 parts of his story creditable. If the documentation has conveniently disappeared then - I guess it is just another story among the many tales told over the yrs regarding the 60's and all of the cover-ups that our government did in the name of "Freedom".Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #1521 April 24, 2008 Wait, now your supposed "DB Cooper" lover knew the person who assassinated MLK? Then you imply that he retrieved the rifle that killed him? Did he also work on the soundstage that faked the moon landing? Or did he perhaps work on the large underground complex at Denver International? Maybe he piloted a black helicopter, but that was after he was a farmer in Roswell? This is just far too much, the sort of thing that MHMR workers write down on their interview notes. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 3 #1522 April 24, 2008 I said it before . . . this is a path that is simply ridiculous.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Orange1 0 #1523 April 24, 2008 Quote Orange, I don't know why you get so mad when I use mathematic calculations. Not mad, more frustrated. Because you seem to hang everything on them to the exclusion of anything else. Like you keep on coming back to the match of a sketch despite the fact that it has been pointed out that you are using the software for a purpose for which it was not designed. The discussion about forces on exit is another case in point. You thought it was a "simple mathematical calc". Experienced guys told you otherwise. (You surely could model it, but not the way you did.) I'm just saying... there is more that happens and you don't seem to want to accept that. You spend a lot of time on maths and maps. You don't seem to even want to contemplate that the fact that Cooper may or may not have survived the jump in the first place would probably depend on how experienced or otherwise he was. Sure, if someone really wanted to take the time to model a probability distribution of that it could probably be done, but wouldn't really mean a damn thing at the end of the day because there is no way of knowing if Cooper would be the mean or the fat tail of the distribution. Like Guru I wonder why I bother coming back and checking this when things just go round and round. Especially 2 people who claim to be objective but clearly are anything but.Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Orange1 0 #1524 April 24, 2008 What I don't understand is this: If Duane had time to run all over the country doing all sorts of things over a period of many years, why on earth did he never go back and retrieve the money from the bucket in anything resembling a reasonable time given the huge incentive of nearly $200K in 1971 money? That seems a pretty big hole in the argument to me.Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
maurico 0 #1525 April 24, 2008 Yes there are several open loops in the case that no-one seems able to close without extra evidence. From what I've seen here a lot of work has gone into it but we ain't much closer.... I have: No book to publish No axe to grind No pet theory I'd never heard of Cooper until they found the chute recently (and yes I know its not his) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
