DB Cooper

[Orange1 0]

ms novalis,

thanks for your response. the antitrust was a side issue, semantics about what is "criminal" was something else, and completely irrelevant imho to this discussion.

this thread may be about a crime, but it only exists on these boards because it involved someone using a parachute to commit that crime (a crime which by the way is undisputed as "criminal" in anyone's language). in that context let's not forget that the only real suspects that have been put in parachutes are mccoy (dismissed on alibi), christiansen (dismissed on physical description) and mayfield (i'm still not entirely sure why he has been dismissed to be honest). as bozo has reminded us, no-one has put weber anywhere near a parachute (the closest we got was someone he knew, maybe, who skydived, but when we tried to explore that avenue jo shut us down and told us she didn't want to hear anymore about it, somehow being in miami in 1962 seems to make him more of a suspect than someone who had a clue about how to survive a night jump).

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[377 21]

I don't think Duane Weber was Cooper, but I no longer think Cooper had to be a skydiver or military jumper. The fact that nobody can connect Duane with a chute doesn't rule him out in my revised book.

The idea that Duane was some sort of spook or government operative seems pretty far fetched to me. Choosing convicts for such critical roles doesn't make a lot of sense. Still, I'd like to learn more about the circumstances surrounding the commutation of his sentence. First, we don't yet have proof that it occurred, but if it did it is quite unusual and bears further scrutiny. Commutation requires the Governor's approval. It isn't given lightly because it can backfire big time politically if an early released prisoner does something bad. If Duane was a nobody, why would the Governor's office intervene to get him an early release?

You generally have to give something of value to get a break like that, often testimony against someone big who they are trying to put away. You won't get a sentence commuted for nothing, at least not from what I have seen. It can be testifying for the prosecution, or political connections (look at Bush's commutation of Scooter Libby's sentence), but it isn't done for nothing.

A commutation sure isn't evidence that Weber was Cooper, they are orthogonal. It is curious though and the more we know about Weber the more certain we can be about whether he is or is not connected to the Cooper case. If he is connected, I will be very surprised since I have seen no solid evidence linking him to the crime.

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[Colson 0]

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Jo --

Let me see if I can piece this together out of the post you just made.

You believe Duane had something to do with the Bay of Pigs.
You believe Duane had something to do with the Mafia.
You believe Duane was a sharpshooter.

Lemme ask you this, where do you think Duane was on November 22, 1963?

(Please don't actually go down this path. It's ridiculous.)

This guy got around.

Lets get another endless thread going on the zapruder film and its distant connection to Cooper. Maybe the shadow in the film could be run against the Cooper sketch using the highly technical Look-a-like meter.

[Canopus 0]

I don't think so either. Not any evidence whatsoever, unless you consider "Aunt Gerdie" and her tales a source.

Why was the money in a tight pack and relatively untethered after all that time?? HOW did it make it's way all the way down the Washoughal and deposit itself there 17+ inches above the dredge layer? I believe the FBI, but I just want to understand this. I believe that Cooper died, but I just need some facts. Anyone??

Thanks

Canop

[skyjack71 0]

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as bozo has reminded us, no-one has put weber anywhere near a parachute (the closest we got was someone he knew, maybe, who skydived, but when we tried to explore that avenue jo shut us down and told us she didn't want to hear anymore about it, somehow being in miami in 1962 seems to make him more of a suspect than someone who had a clue about how to survive a night jump).

I WILL STATE ONE LAST TIME - THE JUMPER IN VA WAS 1984 - WAS A NEIGHBOR AND NO RELATION TO THE PAST OF DUANE WEBER - THIS IS THE 3RD OR 4TH TIME I HAVE HAD TO CORRECT YOU ON THIS.

YOU WOULD RATHER PULL AN INNOCENT INDIVIDUAL IN TO THIS FOR NO REASON WHAT SO EVER OTHER THAN HE AND HIS WIFE WERE JUMPERS AND WAY TOO YOUNG TO BE INVOLVED WITH DUANE IN 1971.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[skyjack71 0]

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I'd like to learn more about the circumstances surrounding the commutation of his sentence. First, we don't yet have proof that it occurred, but if it did it is quite unusual and bears further scrutiny. Commutation requires the Governor's approval. It isn't given lightly because it can backfire big time politically if an early released prisoner does something bad. If Duane was a nobody, why would the Governor's office intervene to get him an early release?

You generally have to give something of value to get a break like that, often testimony against someone big who they are trying to put away. You won't get a sentence commuted for nothing, at least not from what I have seen. It can be testifying for the prosecution, or political connections (look at Bush's commutation of Scooter Libby's sentence), but it isn't done for nothing.

A commutation sure isn't evidence that Weber was Cooper, they are orthogonal. It is curious though and the more we know about Weber the more certain we can be about whether he is or is not connected to the Cooper case. If he is connected, I will be very surprised since I have seen no solid evidence linking him to the crime.

Can I scan the commutation and post it - it is signed by the governor and has a gold seal. The commutation is to John Collilns - the name he served under in Jefferson. John Collins is the name he used from 1962 - 1968. Or I can get a photo copy and mail it to you - your choice.

I have not gotten any corporation from Jefferson in all of these yrs - told several different stories by different individuals working there when they were contacted. By E-mail, by mail, by phone and in-person (an individual with a written directive from me who went to the prison).

My tracing of Duane's history from 1962 to 1971 lends itself to the speculation of his involvement in things that try to stay away from.

If someone were to ever sit down with me for a couple of wks and go thru the files they too will find the hair on their necks rising...and question what he was involved in - I have maintained that he was recuited into some covert group while in the Canon City Prison in Co. This involvement would haunt him until 1968 when he again became Duane L. Weber.

The unusual things that happened during our marriage (that I do not discuss) would indicate that he still owed someone a debt and that he was afraid of someone...powerful enough to hire a private detective to find him (1990) - powerful enough to put fear into him???? I never understood many of the things that happened during our marriage - and I am sure I will never know.

I do know that he was afraid of a man who came into the shop - this was when somethings came up missing and the strange story about money which I never saw - 50k. This was told to Pasternack and the FBI by an individual...who had NO reason to lie - he was former law -enforcement.

A visitor he had - a woman I never met - it was after she left that the 50K surfaced and after he renewed the John Collins ID. Did he need that ID to get into a safe deposit box under that name? He took great risks to get that ID and succeeded. What he did with it I don't know. He did go out of town for a couple of days during that time...because he changed his dialysis days.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[377 21]

Jo,

Go ahead, scan and post it.

I still don't know what to make of it, but commutation isn't the usual deal for sure. I wonder if there are any surviving records from the Governor's clemency office detailing why the commutation was issued?

Couldn't Duane's covert stuff, name change, fear, etc all be consistent with is having bought the commutation with testimony against someone big and then living in fear of retribution?

I know you are 100% certain Duane was Cooper. I disagree, but I haven't ruled him out 100%.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[Colson 0]

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I don't think so either. Not any evidence whatsoever, unless you consider "Aunt Gerdie" and her tales a source.

Why was the money in a tight pack and relatively untethered after all that time?? HOW did it make it's way all the way down the Washoughal and deposit itself there 17+ inches above the dredge layer? I believe the FBI, but I just want to understand this. I believe that Cooper died, but I just need some facts. Anyone??

Thanks

Canop

Sometimes they dont exist, there are no answers, and there are little to no facts. I know thats hard for some to think there is no answer to their question but it looks like that applies here.

People dont disappear without a trace, there are no perfect crimes. But they can disappear with so little of a trace it would be by shear luck to find it. Of course the more time that passes, the less likely you will ever find it.

Sometimes its best to just accept that you probably will never know the "what happened" or "why", and move on. It will be easier then looking for something that isnt there..

[novalis 0]

dear mr. orange

to talk about what "crime is" on a board discussing a crime may in your estimation be "completely irrelevant".
please be assured that i am not trying to pressure you into discussing it.
you might just pass it up, as all of us pass up some things on this thread which don't interest us and comment on others.
as to deciding whether some message, or its form, is on or off topic, the forum has already provided us with a moderator.
novalis

ps it is "mr", not "ms". (don't let the beard fool you.)

[Orange1 0]

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I WILL STATE ONE LAST TIME - THE JUMPER IN VA WAS 1984 - WAS A NEIGHBOR AND NO RELATION TO THE PAST OF DUANE WEBER - THIS IS THE 3RD OR 4TH TIME I HAVE HAD TO CORRECT YOU ON THIS.

YOU WOULD RATHER PULL AN INNOCENT INDIVIDUAL IN TO THIS FOR NO REASON WHAT SO EVER OTHER THAN HE AND HIS WIFE WERE JUMPERS AND WAY TOO YOUNG TO BE INVOLVED WITH DUANE IN 1971.

when you're done shouting... i had no intention of pulling "innocent individuals" in. you keep on saying you have had to "correct" me more than once, in this instance i would like to see exactly where you have corrected a past post of mine. i mentioned this person once and your only response was to tell me you didn't want to hear anything about it.

so bottom line is that you still have not succeeded in what you came here for as per your very first post: to put duane in a parachute.

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[Orange1 0]

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ps it is "mr", not "ms". (don't let the beard fool you.)

a past topic here has been assumptions - it would have taken you 5 seconds to check your assumption that i was male. when you bother to show me the courtesy of a correct gender address, i may do the same to you.

so philosophizing on the nature of "crime" aside, do you have any new insights to add to this case?

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[Orange1 0]

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Couldn't Duane's covert stuff, name change, fear, etc all be consistent with is having bought the commutation with testimony against someone big and then living in fear of retribution?

Yes, but just being a snitch doesn't fit in with the other theories...

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[Orange1 0]

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I don't think Duane Weber was Cooper, but I no longer think Cooper had to be a skydiver or military jumper. The fact that nobody can connect Duane with a chute doesn't rule him out in my revised book.

Fair enough... what do you think the chances are that a novice /first time jumper would have survived the jump with all the money intact? Especially bearing in mind the posts that have been made that it was probably a hard-pull rig?

This is where I keep getting stuck... I don't necessarily think Cooper had any experience, but if he didn't, I can't see much chance of him doing it successfully. We've seen from the posts by non-jumpers here, to provide a very simple example, that they are absolutely clueless about the forces that hit you on exit.

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[377 21]

I think even if Cooper had never jumped before, if he pulled he lived. Just a hunch. I could very easily be wrong.

I have jumped rounds, a jet, surplus rigs, had hard pulls etc etc. Whether or not he pulled is subject to really serious debate. It wouldn't be easy, not one bit. Night, cold, tumbling, afraid, a REALLY hard pull which might make you think you were pulling on the wrong thing and move your hand off the ripcord handle, etc etc.

Look how many highly experienced jumpers have gone in with a no pull post cutaway on nice sunny days. Some of them went in pulling on the harness, some of them tumbled and never pulled anything, some of them seemed disoriented and went in stable.

With street clothing, a flapping money bag, and an almost certain wildly unstable exit, it was not just a simple look, grab and pull. It was dark, the handle may have been obscured by clothing or his cargo and he would have been very disoriented and scared. Hell, I would have been very disoriented and scared under those circumstances even with jump experience. When you panic, you don't perform well and can fixate on one thing that does not offer a solution for the problem immediately at hand. We should get Brian Germain to post. He has studied fear and jumping and how performance is affected. I doubt if fear makes you do anything better on a skydive.

I used to think Cooper had to be a skydiver, but Ckret convinced me otherwise. Problem with that is that the Cooper universe is now expanded from a very small part of the population, skydivers, to a population of potential suspects orders of magnitude larger.

One of these days the crime will be solved, but not by me. It is a fascinating subject and the number of hits on this forum topic tells me many others share the fascination.

Carry on, we have a crime to solve.

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[Orange1 0]

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I think even if Cooper had never jumped before, if he pulled he lived. Just a hunch. I could very easily be wrong.

I have jumped rounds, a jet, surplus rigs, had hard pulls etc etc. Whether or not he pulled is subject to really serious debate. It wouldn't be easy, not one bit. Night, cold, tumbling, afraid, a REALLY hard pull which might make you think you were pulling on the wrong thing and move your hand off the ripcord handle, etc etc.

Look how many highly experienced jumpers have gone in with a no pull post cutaway on nice sunny days. Some of them went in pulling on the harness, some of them tumbled and never pulled anything, some of them seemed disoriented and went in stable.

With street clothing, a flapping money bag, and an almost certain wildly unstable exit, it was not just a simple look, grab and pull. It was dark, the handle may have been obscured by clothing or his cargo and he would have been very disoriented and scared. Hell, I would have been very disoriented and scared under those circumstances even with jump experience. When you panic, you don't perform well and can fixate on one thing that does not offer a solution for the problem immediately at hand. We should get Brian Germain to post. He has studied fear and jumping and how performance is affected. I doubt if fear makes you do anything better on a skydive.

I agree it's very possible that if he pulled he lived.... big if. It has occurred to me that in all the discussion about him possibly never have jumped before, I don't think anyone has mentioned the "sensory overload" factor - I know not every new jumper gets it but I think most do... added to that a violent tumbling exit and I think one assumption that definitely needs to be re-examined is that if he had never jumped before, he pulled high. I think he most likely would have been nowhere near in a position to pull - or at least try to pull - before reaching terminal.

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[Canopus 0]

The question becomes, nut?, psycho?, who on earth would ever attempt such an endeavor even if he/she had a death wish? That's right... probably no one.

So why is it that in any attempt to solve this case, we assume the perp was a novice??

I just don't get it.

[skyjack71 0]

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Jo,

Go ahead, scan and post it.

I still don't know what to make of it, but commutation isn't the usual deal for sure. I wonder if there are any surviving records from the Governor's clemency office detailing why the commutation was issued?
377

For 2 hrs now I have been trying to get it on the site.
I have had a problem posting since they changed the system and keeping the site when I do make a post. I scanned it as a photo and as a document.
My old printer was easy, but this thing I have not figured out - after 9 months - it is over my head.

I did get it scanned but the site doesn't accept it - and I don't know how to reduce a document and the photo since the computer says it is a document I can't make it reduce. DUMB BLONDE. If you have a private email or Quade can arrange for me to send him the file by regular email - then they can do what has to be done to get it posted. I might not ve able to figure that one out either. I guess I need to get the Qeek Squad in here to help me get the bugs out.

Provide me with an address and I will mail a color copy to you or to the site adminstrator to post.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[maurico 0]

Cooper was a novice jumper:

Evidence for:

1. Cooper left behind two working chutes and jumped with one usable and one unusable chute. Doh!
2. He jumped at night (he didn't have to - could have chosen a daytime flight)
3. He jumped with way too much gear (chutes, money bag, briefcase, paper bag) in unsuitable clothing (suit and loafers)
4. No DZ had ever heard of him, before or since

Evidence against?

[Canopus 0]

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Cooper was a novice jumper:

Evidence for:

1. Cooper left behind two working chutes and jumped with one usable and one unusable chute. Doh!
2. He jumped at night (he didn't have to - could have chosen a daytime flight)
3. He jumped with way too much gear (chutes, money bag, briefcase, paper bag) in unsuitable clothing (suit and loafers)
4. No DZ had ever heard of him, before or since

Evidence against?

The incredible Stupidity of assumption. Need I say more?

[Erroll 49]

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Cooper was a novice jumper:

Evidence for:

1. Cooper left behind two working chutes and jumped with one usable and one unusable chute. Doh!
2. He jumped at night (he didn't have to - could have chosen a daytime flight)
3. He jumped with way too much gear (chutes, money bag, briefcase, paper bag) in unsuitable clothing (suit and loafers)
4. No DZ had ever heard of him, before or since

Evidence against?

1. Cooper left behind two working chutes and jumped with one usable and one unusable chute.
He was experienced enough to know that he could not attach another to his harness.

2. He jumped at night (he didn't have to - could have chosen a daytime flight)
He was experienced enough to have done several night jumps before and saw it as no big deal.

3. He jumped with way too much gear (chutes, money bag, briefcase, paper bag) in unsuitable clothing (suit and loafers)
He was an experienced military/smoke jumper and had done several jumps with loads of kit/tools/weapons.

4. No DZ had ever heard of him, before or since
He wasn't a sport jumper.

Too easy.

[Orange1 0]

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The question becomes, nut?, psycho?, who on earth would ever attempt such an endeavor even if he/she had a death wish? That's right... probably no one.

So why is it that in any attempt to solve this case, we assume the perp was a novice??

I just don't get it.

Um, if you read the thread you would see it is not correct that in "any attempt to solve the case" we assume it was a novice. The FBI has various reasons they believe it was. Jo etc would like to think it was to support the Duane theory. Others think it was an experienced skydiver or paratrooper (Mayfield, Christiansen, etc). The bottom line is that so far no-one has come up with anything conclusive at all... on anything... so all options are open.

Errol has also given various answers; it has also been suggested even an experienced jumper would have chosen a reserve (the NB6 was a pilot emergency rig as I understand) for reliability of opening/packing.

I don't have a huge opinion on this, other than if it was a novice I'd put a very small probability on his chances of survival - especially after the commentary of people who would know about how hard a pull it would have been (coupled with tumbling, sensory overload etc before the guy could even start thinking to pull I think a bounce may have been very likely). How long till a no-pull impact from 10K - 60 seconds maybe, less if you're tumbling for most of it?

And it may not have been someone with a death wish, just someone who saw footage or whatever of a skydiver and thought "i just got to pull the cord when i jump, how hard can that be?" Like I said before, we've seen from some of the non-jumper comments here that they are clueless about what an exit is actually like, let alone an exit from a jet at night... ya know, if you don't know how scary/dangerous it is,maybe you think it's easy.

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[Ckret 0]

This was emailed to me, pretty cool. A compromise if you will.

[1969912 0]

Here's an image of the commutation order for John Collins. I will try to post a better image later. No time now.


EDIT: The image came from Mrs. Weber. I just resized it and posted.

"Once we got to the point where twenty/something's needed a place on the corner that changed the oil in their cars we were doomed . . ."
-NickDG

[maurico 0]

Erroll thanks for the reply. My response is that it may not be so easy.

1. Second chute: If a second chute could not be attached to his harness this problem would have confronted both the novice and the experienced jumper. The novice may not have realised that he had no reserve or just thought I can't figure out how to attach it, stuff it I'll just jump with one.

Also if you know you can only use 1 chute why would you take another chute at all, why not just leave it behind on the plane?

2. Night jump: still a big ask to exit from a jet at night at low altitude......this jump has a high pucker factor as Zing noted on the previous thread.

3. Gear: An experienced jumper would surely rationalise the gear he had to jump with by wearing suitable clothes to ensure a rapid getaway on landing.

4. Training: if Cooper was not a sport jumper then he had to be military. No link to Cooper turned up there either.

ps Big ups to all in SA, I had a great time when I was there way back in '94

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[Canopus 0]

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4. Training: if Cooper was not a sport jumper then he had to be military. No link to Cooper turned up there either.

This falls into the same category as "no DZ had ever heard of him".

Why is it you seem to think that there should be Hansel and Gretel bread crumb trails right to Cooper's front door??