DB Cooper

[FLYJACK 654]

9 hours ago, dudeman17 said:

Did any of the front bailout rigs you found have integrated harnesses, permanently attached to the container, or were they all independent harnesses to which one would attach the separate container, like CooperNWO305 and I have described?

Typically, the harness only was worn by the crew, then the front or back chute would get attached for a bailout.. 

but for some planes pilot's wore their bailout rigs..

[olemisscub 466]

11 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

Typically, the harness only was worn by the crew, then the front or back chute would get attached for a bailout.. 

but for some planes pilot's wore their bailout rigs..

Yeah. This brief clip from a WWII training film indicates that.

[FLYJACK 654]

7 hours ago, georger said:

These thoughts are interesting but since Cooper did not specify or explain anything chute wise, and there was no long winded discussion, he made do with what he was given and he went ahead and jumped. The crew could have played dumb and told Cooper they didnt know what he wanted! - didnt know what to tell people. But that didnt happened either. They took Cooper's words as given, got chutes, delivered chutes, .... he made do.

We have been at this for years speculating endlessly! Cooper was only at it for several hours and gone! There weren't endless iterations from Cooper. He got chutes, made do, and jumped.  

True, but there are two issues..

The terminology Cooper used for his request may give us insight into his experience..

and the evidence supports Cossey's description of the chute Cooper used as being false, that means they were looking for the wrong chute and Cooper's chute may have been found.

Cossey claimed his chute had no D rings.. then why was Cooper given front reserves with no harness and why would Cossey have personal non steerable bailout rigs.. answer, he didn't.. Cossey thought his chutes were grabbed from Issaquah but before Emrick sent them in, they obtained Hayden's chutes and only the fronts were sent.. but Cossey didn't know that when the FBI called him about the chutes left on the plane. Cossey described his chute he thought was used, but it wasn't.

Conclusion,, Cossey initially believed his back chutes were used and he gave the wrong description for Cooper's chute, they weren't, Hayden's were used. Cossey discovered his error within a day but never corrected it. So, Cooper's chute may have been found but rejected because it didn't match Cossey's false description.

 

 

Edited December 21, 2022 by FLYJACK

[FLYJACK 654]

Another interesting thing is the back chute left on the plane returned to Hayden is a WW2 era early 1940's P2-B-24.

The harness is a 1957 Pioneer "quick fit"... 

Edited December 21, 2022 by FLYJACK

[olemisscub 466]

Made enhanced versions of these.

 

 

Edited December 21, 2022 by olemisscub

[dudeman17 270]

12 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

Typically, the harness only was worn by the crew, then the front or back chute would get attached for a bailout.. 

To specify, I think that setup only applies to front pack bailout rigs. As always I could be wrong, but I don't think there are any back chute bailout rigs that do not have integrated harnesses. The crewman would not be able to attach that by himself.

 

11 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

why would Cossey have personal non steerable bailout rigs.. answer, he didn't

Actually he would have. One, the dropzone would have a few for their pilots and people taking observer rides, and Cossey may refer to them as 'his' because he runs the loft and does the rigging on them. Second, I think he would have one of his own. When an instructor puts out static line students, he does not jump with them. Especially if he has another load waiting, it's more efficient for him to just ride down with the airplane. If he's wearing a full rig with main and front reserve, it's big, cumbersome, and in the way. It's easier to just wear a smaller, sleeker, lighter bailout rig with no front reserve, and that was a common practice.

 

12 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

then why was Cooper given front reserves with no harness

It is unlikely that the dropzone would have any of those independent harness with front pack bailout systems. That was a military aircrew item, and not prevalent in the civilian sport arena, either jumpers or aerobatic pilots. The front reserves they would have would be for reserves on freefall rigs with mains.

[FLYJACK 654]

33 minutes ago, dudeman17 said:

To specify, I think that setup only applies to front pack bailout rigs. As always I could be wrong, but I don't think there are any back chute bailout rigs that do not have integrated harnesses. The crewman would not be able to attach that by himself.

 

Actually he would have. One, the dropzone would have a few for their pilots and people taking observer rides, and Cossey may refer to them as 'his' because he runs the loft and does the rigging on them. Second, I think he would have one of his own. When an instructor puts out static line students, he does not jump with them. Especially if he has another load waiting, it's more efficient for him to just ride down with the airplane. If he's wearing a full rig with main and front reserve, it's big, cumbersome, and in the way. It's easier to just wear a smaller, sleeker, lighter bailout rig with no front reserve, and that was a common practice.

 

It is unlikely that the dropzone would have any of those independent harness with front pack bailout systems. That was a military aircrew item, and not prevalent in the civilian sport arena, either jumpers or aerobatic pilots. The front reserves they would have would be for reserves on freefall rigs with mains.

Could be, everything I read referred to harnesses being worn and chutes attached for bailout, no distinction between front and back was made. Though some pilots wore rigs.

 

But, the point I am making is Cossey's story doesn't really make sense..

He gave instructions for his non steerable military bailout back chutes and front chutes to be picked up from Issaquah, we know the backs came from Hayden, but the problem is Cossey claimed his back chute didn't have D rings. So, why send Cooper front reserves with no harnesses that couldn't be used.

Having fronts sent without harnesses and back chutes from Hayden with no D rings is understandable as they wouldn't know if they had D rings or not... Emrick was told backs weren't needed.

but Cossey arranging for his back chute to be used with no D rings and sending fronts with no harnesses does not make sense.. if Cossey knew fronts and backs were required then why send fronts that couldn't be used with his back chutes.

 

See the problem,,, Cossey was wrong about his chute being used then lied about it.. 

Cooper didn't use Cossey's NB6/8 sage green nylon container and sage green nylon harness..

 

 

 

 

[JAGdb 71]

8 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

But, the point I am making is Cossey's story doesn't really make sense..

He gave instructions for his non steerable military bailout back chutes and front chutes to be picked up from Issaquah, we know the backs came from Hayden, but the problem is Cossey claimed his back chute didn't have D rings. So, why send Cooper front reserves with no harnesses that couldn't be used.

Having fronts sent without harnesses and back chutes from Hayden with no D rings is understandable as they wouldn't know if they had D rings or not... Emrick was told backs weren't needed.

but Cossey arranging for his back chute to be used with no D rings and sending fronts with no harnesses does not make sense.. if Cossey knew fronts and backs were required then why send fronts that couldn't be used with his back chutes.

 

 

This a great point, it doesn't make sense that Cossey made arrangements for back chutes with no D rings.  He would have/should have known better.  Unless it was just a spur of the moment, lost in the urgency type over sight.  

[CooperNWO305 146]

11 hours ago, dudeman17 said:

To specify, I think that setup only applies to front pack bailout rigs. As always I could be wrong, but I don't think there are any back chute bailout rigs that do not have integrated harnesses. The crewman would not be able to attach that by himself.

 

Actually he would have. One, the dropzone would have a few for their pilots and people taking observer rides, and Cossey may refer to them as 'his' because he runs the loft and does the rigging on them. Second, I think he would have one of his own. When an instructor puts out static line students, he does not jump with them. Especially if he has another load waiting, it's more efficient for him to just ride down with the airplane. If he's wearing a full rig with main and front reserve, it's big, cumbersome, and in the way. It's easier to just wear a smaller, sleeker, lighter bailout rig with no front reserve, and that was a common practice.

 

It is unlikely that the dropzone would have any of those independent harness with front pack bailout systems. That was a military aircrew item, and not prevalent in the civilian sport arena, either jumpers or aerobatic pilots. The front reserves they would have would be for reserves on freefall rigs with mains.

Dudeman. How dangerous is it if he tied the front to the harness of the back chute? Basically substituting para cord for the D rings. Seems very dangerous and I’d think if he had to use it, it would have broke. I’m wondering why he takes the front with him or throws it out. He did make a good amount of cuts on the risers. 

[olemisscub 466]

2 hours ago, CooperNWO305 said:

Dudeman. How dangerous is it if he tied the front to the harness of the back chute? Basically substituting para cord for the D rings. Seems very dangerous and I’d think if he had to use it, it would have broke. I’m wondering why he takes the front with him or throws it out. He did make a good amount of cuts on the risers. 

On a related note, in Cossey's first interview with the FBI he states his belief that Cooper could have removed the parachute from one of the chest packs and used it as an additional money bag. He states this immediately after acknowledging that the harnesses didn't have D-rings, so is he assuming that Cooper would have tied this bag to his body with paracord or is he possibly suggesting that the connector snaps could be fit onto the harness? Meltzer told me that he tried to see if you could fit the fabric on the harness of an NB-8 into the connector snaps of an old reserve and it won't fit. So, if he did use the dummy chute as an extra money bag then it would have to have been tied with the paracord to the harness or his body. 

For the dummy chute we seem to have three options (if there are others let me know):

1. He tied it to his body to be used as a reserve. My issue with this is that it seems a bit of a dodgy prospect. Since I've never jumped out of a plane, I think I can accurately play the role of a "whuffo Cooper" in these discussions. I think if I was Cooper and my harnesses didn't have D-rings I'd just have to accept the fact that I wasn't going to be jumping with a reserve. I wouldn't trust any knots I'm tying with paracord to hold if I had to open a reserve. 

2. He popped it, threw the sewn together dummy canopy out the back, stuffed some of the money in there, snapped it back up, then tied it to his person or to the harness with paracord. The issue with this is why you would do this at all. Would there be any benefit to having two awkward things tied to your body as opposed to one?

3. He just threw it intact out of the back of the aircraft at some point. 

[georger 197]

3 hours ago, olemisscub said:

On a related note, in Cossey's first interview with the FBI he states his belief that Cooper could have removed the parachute from one of the chest packs and used it as an additional money bag. He states this immediately after acknowledging that the harnesses didn't have D-rings, so is he assuming that Cooper would have tied this bag to his body with paracord or is he possibly suggesting that the connector snaps could be fit onto the harness? Meltzer told me that he tried to see if you could fit the fabric on the harness of an NB-8 into the connector snaps of an old reserve and it won't fit. So, if he did use the dummy chute as an extra money bag then it would have to have been tied with the paracord to the harness or his body. 

For the dummy chute we seem to have three options (if there are others let me know):

1. He tied it to his body to be used as a reserve. My issue with this is that it seems a bit of a dodgy prospect. Since I've never jumped out of a plane, I think I can accurately play the role of a "whuffo Cooper" in these discussions. I think if I was Cooper and my harnesses didn't have D-rings I'd just have to accept the fact that I wasn't going to be jumping with a reserve. I wouldn't trust any knots I'm tying with paracord to hold if I had to open a reserve. 

2. He popped it, threw the sewn together dummy canopy out the back, stuffed some of the money in there, snapped it back up, then tied it to his person or to the harness with paracord. The issue with this is why you would do this at all. Would there be any benefit to having two awkward things tied to your body as opposed to one?

3. He just threw it intact out of the back of the aircraft at some point. 

 

7:54 pm           t1 

 

MSP:               As soon as reasonably sure the man has left the quicker you can land.

305:                 Roger. Miss Mucklow said he apparently has the knapsack around him and thinks he will attempt a jump. 

                    MSP:     Roger. After leaving this freq go to 131.8 we have direct phone   patch

There (to Company and FBI)

                   305:                 Roger.

 

[There is no 'knapsack'.  So its something else Cooper has fabricated in some configuration, around his waste?   Mucklow describes Cooper being upset when the knapsack was not provided and saying he would have to 'fabricate something' to carry the money. see Mucklow's crew interviews ... ]

Edited December 22, 2022 by georger

[olemisscub 466]

4 hours ago, georger said:

 

7:54 pm           t1 

 

MSP:               As soon as reasonably sure the man has left the quicker you can land.

305:                 Roger. Miss Mucklow said he apparently has the knapsack around him and thinks he will attempt a jump. 

                    MSP:     Roger. After leaving this freq go to 131.8 we have direct phone   patch

There (to Company and FBI)

                   305:                 Roger.

 

[There is no 'knapsack'.  So its something else Cooper has fabricated in some configuration, around his waste?   Mucklow describes Cooper being upset when the knapsack was not provided and saying he would have to 'fabricate something' to carry the money. see Mucklow's crew interviews ... ]

Tina's description is pretty clear about him wrapping the money bag up. It then appears that he tried to put the whole bag (still wrapped up presumably) into the container of the good reserve. So if he, at some point later, had decided to put some of the money in the dummy chute container, then he would have needed to unwrap the money bag to access the cash. That seems rather tedious with the clock ticking. 

[FLYJACK 654]

It doesn't make sense that Cooper would open the dummy after already having the good front open.. and if he opened the dummy for some reason there would be pieces left behind,, why toss the remaining parts.

IMO, Cooper tossed the dummy whole because it didn't have a packing card, didn't have a seal and felt tampered with...

 

[FLYJACK 654]

In all three images of Vince Petersen his hair is parted on the wrong side, the right.

[FLYJACK 654]

Cossey claims he had Issaquah send in his two personal backpacks,

one freefall rig (B-4 sport rig) and an NB-8 emergency rig...   this is BS and the FBI never caught it.

Cooper never used Cossey's NB6/8... both chutes came from Hayden.

He used Hayden's Pioneer #60-9707... he likely chose it over the other #226 because it was 3 years newer.

and for 50+ years they were looking for the wrong chute.

 

So, this has spun so far away from reality,, Cossey claimed the NB6/8 had a hard to find the ripcord because the handle was flat.. Gryder has used Cossey's "hard to open" claim and moved the handle to right side based on Larry Carr's misunderstanding... all to use as evidence for the chute he claims he found to support McCoy being Cooper..  Completely nuts.

Edited December 23, 2022 by FLYJACK

[Robert99 37]

1 hour ago, FLYJACK said:

Cossey claims he had Issaquah send in his two personal backpacks,

one freefall rig (B-4 sport rig) and an NB-8 emergency rig...   this is BS and the FBI never caught it.

Cooper never used Cossey's NB6/8... both chutes came from Hayden.

He used Hayden's Pioneer #60-9707... he likely chose it over the other #226 because it was 3 years newer.

and for 50+ years they were looking for the wrong chute.

 

So, this has spun so far away from reality,, Cossey claimed the NB6/8 had a hard to find the ripcord because the handle was flat.. Gryder has used Cossey's "hard to open" claim and moved the handle to right side based on Larry Carr's misunderstanding... all to use as evidence for the chute he claims he found to support McCoy being Cooper..  Completely nuts.

Just ignore everything that Cossey said and problems with the parachutes disappear.  Stick with Hayden and Emrick's statements and everything checks out okay. 

[georger 197]

33 minutes ago, Robert99 said:

Just ignore everything that Cossey said and problems with the parachutes disappear.  Stick with Hayden and Emrick's statements and everything checks out okay. 

That seems to be true!  .........  Was Cossey gambling at the time of the hijacking?  He was working as a school teacher wasn't he ?  Did the hijacking become an inconvenient intruder into his personal life? 

Edited December 23, 2022 by georger

[olemisscub 466]

2 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

.

IMO, Cooper tossed the dummy whole because it didn't have a packing card, didn't have a seal and felt tampered with...

 

Been saying this for ages. Glad we agree.

 

 

[FLYJACK 654]

49 minutes ago, Robert99 said:

Just ignore everything that Cossey said and problems with the parachutes disappear.  Stick with Hayden and Emrick's statements and everything checks out okay. 

You would think,,, take it to the next level..

that means they were looking for the wrong chute and rejected many found over the years based on Cossey's description.. Cooper's chute might have been found and rejected..

and how can they have two backpack packing cards from the plane and not realize one was the chute Cooper took..

and further the FBI wants the money or the chutes.. if they don't have the chute description correct they won't be able to ID any chute.. 

Seems either there is a game being played or gross negligence.

[FLYJACK 654]

21 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

Been saying this for ages. Glad we agree.

 

 

It is the best and most logical explanation.

[olemisscub 466]

11 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

You would think,,, take it to the next level..

that means they were looking for the wrong chute and rejected many found over the years based on Cossey's description.. Cooper's chute might have been found and rejected..

and how can they have two backpack packing cards from the plane and not realize one was the chute Cooper took..

and further the FBI wants the money or the chutes.. if they don't have the chute description correct they won't be able to ID any chute.. 

Seems either there is a game being played or gross negligence.

Their jobs would have been much easier if they had OCR scanning of every 302 like we have. I’d like to think that many of the errant public declarations Larry made early in his tenure (dummy chute, loafers, military chute over civilian chute, etc) could have been avoided if he had searchable 302’s at the time. 

[georger 197]

14 hours ago, olemisscub said:

Their jobs would have been much easier if they had OCR scanning of every 302 like we have. I’d like to think that many of the errant public declarations Larry made early in his tenure (dummy chute, loafers, military chute over civilian chute, etc) could have been avoided if he had searchable 302’s at the time. 

ChatGPT: Optimizing Language Models
for Dialogue and Data Processing

Searching and organising data requires modern processing tools. The FBI has several such systems. But not all agents take advantage of it. Tom Kaye, Carr, Ulis etal have shown no inclination to use these systems for the Cooper case analysis.  We have already seen how Geof Gray and Bruce Smith were swallowed by the complexity of the Cooper case! These data processing models/programs are fundamental to university education today in most subjects.

I cant imagine how the McCrone list could be searched and organised without data processing software!  

https://openai.com/blog/chatgpt/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ChatGPT

Edited December 23, 2022 by georger

[dudeman17 270]

On 12/22/2022 at 6:18 AM, CooperNWO305 said:

Dudeman. How dangerous is it if he tied the front to the harness of the back chute? Basically substituting para cord for the D rings. Seems very dangerous and I’d think if he had to use it, it would have broke.

If he coiled several loops for each tie point it might likely have held. Especially with bailout rigs, which are rigger-packed reserve type gear, parachute malfunctions are rare, and even among malfunctions it would be rare to have a complete pack closure total or a completely uninflated streamer. Most malfunctions are 'partial', where they mostly deploy but get knotted up somehow during inflation, which results in a canopy that is partially or mostly inflated, and he would be significantly slowed down. In those days the reserve procedures usually did not involve releasing the main canopy, and with the bailout rigs you can not release them. So feeding a reserve out during a partial malfunction would not involve a full terminal opening shock, it would just inflate smoothly and add drag to whatever was already there.

Also, he likely could have attached the reserve clips to the leg strap hardware. That would hang the reserve lower which would be an awkward point to be hanging from, but it would make more room to tie the money bag above it.

[dudeman17 270]

There is so much that is odd, conflicting, or doesn't make sense about obtaining the chutes. It's my understanding that the FBI didn't tell anybody what they were for, is that right? So the FBI asks, and people just hand them over, no questions asked? If they knew there was a hostage situation and they're trying to keep a criminal from blowing people up, I can see them cooperating, but otherwise? The flight service guy that gets Hayden's rigs, he's aviation oriented, you'd think that he'd know enough to say that those chutes are for emergencies and not really suitable for intentional jumps. And the chutes form the dropzone. Who did they talk to? Did they call Cossey? Did they call the dropzone? Emrick makes the comment about looking for older ones - if they called the dz and Emrick answered, he owns the place and knows his gear, he wouldn't necessarily need to call Cossey. Cossey mentions a skydiver staying at the loft - does that guy answer the phone, then call Cossey asking what to do? Whether he's mistaken or lying, Cossey's first description sounds like they sent a sport rig (with D-rings) and a good reserve, and a bailout rig (no D-rings) and a dummy reserve. If Cossey knows what's going on, is that his way of discouraging the hijacker from making Tina jump? But Cossey doesn't know, right? If I'm Emrick and I answer the phone and they're asking for chutes, I'm going to ask what they're for. People should know what they're doing with these things. And my thought would be to send student gear. It's nobody's personal rigs, and in that era they'd be basic military surplus gear, and the easiest to replace? And if they tell Emrick that they have back ones and just need front ones, isn't he going to ask about that? He would know that front ones aren't compatible with bailout rigs. Does he just keep his mouth shut about that so as not to volunteer two more of his rigs? And it says that Cooper had already opened the good reserve before Tina brought in the last parachute. Was that last one the dummy reserve? You'd think that if he had them both there, he'd open the dummy and get the lines out of that. But if he opened the good one before seeing the dummy, that may have pissed him off and be what prompted him to pitch that one out, out of frustration. And the FBI relying on Cossey's descriptions after the fact - even if Cossey was honestly mistaken, the FBI would know which ones they gave. Every time Cossey starts to describe his gear, you'd think they'd say no, we gave Cooper the Hayden bailout rigs, describe those (knowing Cossey packed them)?

???????

[olemisscub 466]

Tina first brought one of the main (big, to use her words) chutes, then both chest packs during one trip, then the final main. Cooper was already fooling with the good chest pack when she brought the final main. 

Cossey's original descriptions were correct. No idea why he changed it. These are both from Nov 71.

Edited December 24, 2022 by olemisscub