42 42
quade

DB Cooper

Recommended Posts

Here, Emrick recalled.. he was asked for "four chutes" but learned that the two backs were secured so he only sent the two fronts...

Cossey wasn't aware of this and assumed his back chutes from Issaquah were used.. he was asked to ID the chute Cooper used before he learned of it.. thereby giving the wrong description.

 516077466_ScreenShot2022-10-06at8_31_52AM.png.e7b8cf741a8814cc8679f1c3a1cda5db.png

Edited by FLYJACK

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
39 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

The FBI kept the evidence in a box including the tie.. particle contamination would be inevitable in handling or storage..

 

 

fbibox.mov 1.51 MB · 1 download  

Contamination to some degree would be inevitable, but look at the prevalence of elements like chromium, tungsten, molybdenum, and vanadium, which are all almost exclusively used in the creation of metal alloys and aren't encountered in the wild very often by civilians. To have all of them one after the other popping up on a tie that also has that much pure titanium really seems to indicate that the those particles didn't arrive there by contamination. It's quite possible that Cooper picked the tie up randomly or he snatched it from somewhere, but I think it's hard to argue that the tie, at some point in its life, was worn by someone in the metals industry. 

It would be nice if a control had been done with some sticky stubs being applied to other items shoved in that box. 

cmrmezw (1).png

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

Contamination to some degree would be inevitable, but look at the prevalence of elements like chromium, tungsten, molybdenum, and vanadium, which are all almost exclusively used in the creation of metal alloys and aren't encountered in the wild very often by civilians. To have all of them one after the other popping up on a tie that also has that much pure titanium really seems to indicate that the those particles didn't arrive there by contamination. It's quite possible that Cooper picked the tie up randomly or he snatched it from somewhere, but I think it's hard to argue that the tie, at some point in its life, was worn by someone in the metals industry. 

It would be nice if a control had been done with some sticky stubs being applied to other items shoved in that box. 

cmrmezw (1).png

I tend to agree. Those particles did not come from a clean lab environment!  Unless it was a lab in Moscow! ;P

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
33 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

Contamination to some degree would be inevitable, but look at the prevalence of elements like chromium, tungsten, molybdenum, and vanadium, which are all almost exclusively used in the creation of metal alloys and aren't encountered in the wild very often by civilians. To have all of them one after the other popping up on a tie that also has that much pure titanium really seems to indicate that the those particles didn't arrive there by contamination. It's quite possible that Cooper picked the tie up randomly or he snatched it from somewhere, but I think it's hard to argue that the tie, at some point in its life, was worn by someone in the metals industry. 

It would be nice if a control had been done with some sticky stubs being applied to other items shoved in that box. 

cmrmezw (1).png

What about particle contamination on an airplane flying with the bulkhead door open to an engine or via the air bleed system...  how do we control for those.

The problem is we don't have context.. many of those particles are common.

The rare ones are found in electronics, pyrotechnics, medical, dentistry, pigments/paints, automotive and more.. 

It is a rats nest trying to sort it out...

 

There are two issues,, 

First, the tie knot had an amount of dust, that suggests it was sitting for some time before Norjak.

and if you look at the UV image, the particle distribution is not evenly random,, there  are horizontal patterns as if the tie was wiping something or lying in particle dust.. the UV particles are also on the rear tie piece. Tom's Boeing control tie UV image is evenly random.

This indicates that many of the particles were likley deposited on the tie when not worn.

 

Edited by FLYJACK

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don’t think anyone is saying that box was filled with all the particles. My observation is in line with many others, and that is we don’t know where the tie was before or after. When there are stories of FBI agents wearing it at parties as well as 14 DNA profiles and Tom’s DNA, then one has to wonder. 
 

My stance as been the same for years. The tie probably came from some industrial setting. Tracing that to one location is impossible, regardless of how much we’d like to do that. For a large group of people who disagree with Eric on things, it’s unusual to now see them agreeing with his research on the particles. 
 

One final note. There is this push to go upstream on the particles, as in where were they manufactured? Why not go further upstream and find where they were mined or refined? But better yet, why not go downstream to where these elements were used? You guys say “metals”. Do you realize how many metals related companies were in the US in 1971? We helped win WWII. The US went to the Moon in 1969. This discussion is fun, but the lectures are getting tiring. 
 

None of the elements on the tie are uncommon. None. Some are just more common than others. Find some uranium or plutonium and then we have a lead. 
 

When will we have scientists with documented degrees in science at the Masters or PhD levels giving us credible information? Has McCrone weighed in?

I’ll say this to both teams about both suspects. If the tie theory fell apart, is your guy still a good suspect? Age? Description? Background? If you found someone at RemCru who fit the profile better, would you consider him? How do you know you found everyone that worked at those companies in 1965? I can’t even find out who worked at an office a year ago. 

Edited by CooperNWO305
  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, Math of Insects said:

Any conclusions that rely on the investigative and analytical skills of Eric Ulis should be considered to be somewhere between Wrong and Comically Wrong.

 

Well my team has been working with actual metallurgists this whole time. I can’t speak for Eric. He may have people helping him or he may not. We arrived at Rem- Cru separately and for different reasons.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

Well my team has been working with actual metallurgists this whole time. I can’t speak for Eric. He may have people helping him or he may not. We arrived at Rem- Cru separately and for different reasons.

 

It’s been a crash course in metallurgy to say the least!

Edited by Nicholas Broughton

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Nicholas Broughton said:

 

It’s been a crash course in metallurgy to say the least!

Working completely independently from each other, both groups zero in on the exact 3 particles and then independently both decide on RemCru? How is that possible?  Eric was talking about this well before anyone else.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, CooperNWO305 said:

I don’t think anyone is saying that box was filled with all the particles. 

The tie probably came from some industrial setting. Tracing that to one location is impossible, regardless of how much we’d like to do that.

None of the elements on the tie are uncommon. None. Some are just more common than others. Find some uranium or plutonium and then we have a lead. 

If the tie theory fell apart, is your guy still a good suspect? 

BOOM, this is gold...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, olemisscub said:

Well my team has been working with actual metallurgists this whole time. I can’t speak for Eric. He may have people helping him or he may not. We arrived at Rem- Cru separately and for different reasons.

You both used the same flawed logic that the TISB particles could only have come from an alloy patent and people associated with it.

Everything relies on that flaw.. both of you guys have essentially found a random guy who resembles the sketch and tried to make him fit the evidence.. is it possible to find Cooper that way, sure, but the odds are astronomical.

You really think an older guy (58) with over 80 patents, a PHD, worked on the Manhattan Project, no military parachute experience, no aviation experience fits Cooper's profile?

Remove the (flawed) tie particle premise then what do you have,,,

 

Now, I will say that I would probably have pursued the same line of inquiry but I would not have brought them forward as a suspect without some major evidence..

I have pursued many things based on a hypothesis that never panned out.

 

Edited by FLYJACK

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, CooperNWO305 said:

Working completely independently from each other, both groups zero in on the exact 3 particles and then independently both decide on RemCru? How is that possible?  Eric was talking about this well before anyone else.

 

2 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

You both used the same flawed logic that the TISB particles could only have come from an alloy patent and people associated with it.

Everything relies on that flaw.. both of you guys have essentially found a random guy who resembles the sketch and tried to make him fit the evidence.. is it possible to find Cooper that way, sure, but the odds are astronomical.

 

 

I believe we've already explained this, but I'll explain it again. Eric indeed found the 3 possible alloys. He gets credit for that. They do stick out like a sore thumb on the spreadsheets. He came up with Rem-Cru on his own somehow. He'd have to tell you how he did that. I'm not even sure how he did because he's a guy who works alone. However, for our part, we took those particles to metallurgists who led us to several places, one of which eventually was Rem-Cru. We did not begin at Rem-Cru though. We learned that the places that were experimenting with TiSb alloys in the 1950's were originally Bureau of Mines and Battelle Memorial Institute. We built a spreadsheet for each of these places of as many of their R&D guys as we could find and then attempted to vet those people, looking for military experience and ties to the PNW. We weren't able to find any. But that seemed like a dead end anyways because the tie wouldn't have been around these 1950's raw TiSb alloys since it came from the 60's. 

We then decided to look for patents that might reference TiSb alloys. We located 1,400 patents 1950 through 1959 that mention both titanium and antimony somewhere in the patent (usually in a long list of elements but almost never adjacent), and around 3,500 in the 1960's. Virtually 100% of these are for pigments and chemicals, never alloys. In fact, the only two places that actually have patents for TiSb alloys are Rem-Cru/Crucible and Sprague. You can search the US Patents yourself and for titanium antimony alloy it's literally just those two. FWIW, Vordahl is the only Crucible employee who is listed on those patents (there are 13 of them in total, but only one in the "tie era"). He apparently learned the skill from a collaboration with Battelle. TiSb is apparently an extremely difficult and also inefficient thing to alloy, which is why it never caught on and was purely experimental. TiSn alloys essentially give you the same advantages as TiSb but it is much, much more efficient and easy to do, which is why the industry used it instead of TiSb. You can see below a query on the metallurgy reddit from Chaucer and the befuddled response he received. 

So we then narrowed our focus on seeing if anyone stood out in the R&D labs for Rem-Cru/Crucible and Sprague. We built spreadsheets for those as well. You can see below a sample of the first page of our Rem-Cru sheet that we built. FWIW, John L. Sprague from Sprague Electronics would have made a damn good Cooper if you were holding a Cooper lookalike contest. But he of course was just the CEO of Sprague and wasn't a grunt metallurgist working in a lab. 

So we kept vetting all these names we could find at Rem-Cru and Sprague, looking for military experience and/or ties to the PNW. We used an expensive software that I have access to in order to check for these things and also looked up their obituaries and military records for height/eye color/hair color/build, etc. on Fold3. Not surprisingly, very few of these nerds had real military experience. They were used in wartime industries or recruited to work on various things for the war effort, like Vordahl on the Manhattan Project. To our surprise, Vordahl was the only one who was from the PNW, but he would have been 58 during NORJAK, so we sorta skipped over him. We kept digging and digging and came up with nothing that would make any of these individuals stand out as unique. So we eventually decide, what the hell, lets look at Vordahl anyways. The 1965 patent is, after all, his sole invention. 

So reluctantly, due to age, we decided to do a deeper dive into Vordahl and saw that not only was he from Washington, but he was actually living there at the time. Well, that's neat, but doesn't mean too much. What about his size? Measured in barefeet for the draft at age 26 he was 5'10 1/2. Good size for anyone wanting to be Cooper IMO. Yeah, well, that's all fine and good, but what kind of person was he? Were he and the Mrs. akin to Ward and June Clever? Oh no, hell no they were not. I'm not sure how many couples in the 1960's and 1970's caused people in their town to make public complaints against them accusing them of Paganism. He seemed to have a narcissistic and often angry personality. He seems like the sort that would have perhaps been upset that he received no public recognition for some of his notable contributions to aerospace since all of his marvelous inventions were assigned and he received no royalties (93% of the alloy coating the SR-71 is one of his). He appeared to be such a miser about certain things that instead of buying his children contacts in the 1960's, he literally made them contacts in his spare time. He had some fascination with optics and would build his own telescopes, many of which are still on the family property. There are other troubling aspects of his personality that, out of respect for the family, we are not publicly discussing as of now.  He ended up dying of a rare neurological disease that, among other things, effects the part of the brain that controls impulsivity. Could he have been already suffering from this? Something for us to consider at least.

Was he an arthritic broken down old timer? Quite the contrary. He appeared to be a very good athlete. When doing deep dives on him, many of the references you'll come across are about him competing (and sometimes winning) amateur tennis and golf tournaments. According to one of his grandchildren, he was an obsessive golfer and played tennis or golf everyday that he could. We have him still playing in senior tennis tournaments into his 70's. He also wrote about jogging and running during the 1960's. I think we all know that wasn't exactly a common practice in those days. So he would have been in good shape for a man his age. Drinker and smoker? We literally have a video of the man drinking and in the same video there appears to be a lit cigarette set in an ashtray in front of him. He also made his own wine, fwiw. 

Well what else? Any ties to Boeing? Sure, he consulted with Boeing many, many times over the previous 15 years before NORJAK. Our source with access to Boeing records has him many times consulting for Crucible and TIMET with Boeing. We have him on the floor of Boeing as late as 1970 consulting on the SST. What was he doing in 1971? He appeared to still be a consultant for Crucible and also for TIMET, which was located in Henderson, NV. He maintained a home in Henderson from 1965 until his death. He appeared to snowbird in the winter time and relocate to his home in NV during the rough winters in northern Washington. His exact job title is unclear, but we have him working at the TIMET lab in Henderson in the 1960's and also again in the 1970's as a consultant. The last patent of his life, incidentally, was published in 1971. His "home laboratory", so to speak, was at the TIMET plant in Henderson, which was only 2 miles from his home. This plant closed in August 71 due to the aerospace bust and laid off all of its workers. The research manager there, as we all know, was a guy named Don Cooper. They opened back up in mid 72.

It should be noted that one of the very last things we knew about Vordahl was what he looked like. We were well over a month into researching him that we finally saw what he looked like as an adult. He was Mr. "not appearing in this photo" guy throughout much of his life. It wasn't until we had already contacted the family and held discussions with them that we received an actual clear photo of his face. It should also be noted that we've never encountered a single word of objection from his family. Literally none of them have said "no way" or anything like that. They're merely intrigued. They knew he was a unique individual and just want to learn more.

Does any of this make him Cooper? Absolutely f**king not. Odds are astronomically overwhelming that he ISN'T D.B. Cooper. I recognize that. I'm not a fool (even though many of the people on this site may think that about me) nor am I some gullible idiot. However, for an outside-the-box Cooper suspect, I think it's worth looking at an anti-social, often hostile, narcissistic, genius inventor, with ties to aviation, with ties to the SST bust, who was living in one of the most isolated communities in Washington in 1971, and who looks so similar to the sketches. 

Our team spent months and months seeking the opinions of metallurgists, authors on metallurgy, other scientists, and making contacts with individuals at Boeing, etc. We didn't just pull Vordahl out of a hat. We had already vetted like 200 different individuals at various companies before we dug deeper into him because, as previously stated, we had previously set him aside as we figured his age put him out of contention (and perhaps it still does). Again, we didn't even know what the guy looked like until well into our investigation of him. He could have looked like Chris Farley for all we knew and that would have been the end of it.

Three of us busted our asses on this every day for four or five months. That's well over a year of combined time researching this to try and get to Vordahl. Eric will openly admit that the way he found Petersen was he contacted an older guy who used to be a supervisor there. He was actually one of only two guys that we vetted who was still alive and we actually gave the contact info to Eric. He called and asked the guy "who was someone you worked with who was about 6'1 and was around 45-50 in 1971. The old guy said "that sounds like Petersen". That's how Eric found Petersen, and hey, maybe he got super lucky.

However, as you can see, our research methods to find our suspects were obviously night and day, so please, as fellow Cooper researchers, do not disrespect our efforts by claiming that we half assed this. We've spoken with numerous experts. We've collectively spent hundreds of hours and financial resources looking into this lead on the off-chance that maybe, just maybe, it might produce something.

And yes, of course this is based on a hypothesis. It's no different than finding a suspect based on what is arguably a fictional novel or making an assumption that this individual came from this or that particular commando unit. 51 years later we are all kind of grasping at straws here. 

It's just a theory based on something that may or may not turn out to be true, but we chased a lead and so far this is what we've come up with after doing months of due diligence. So please chill it with the aspersions claiming that we half-assed this TiSb theory. We absolutely did not.  If you want to attack EU for being given a random name and running with it, then sure, that's a very valid criticism. But that criticism should not be leveled against us. 

We understand the flaws of Vordahl. He's arguably outside the age range. We haven't found any parachuting experience as of yet. Why would he commit aircraft piracy? Etc.

316602148_3414932798739710_6319668659830899087_n.png

318353582_917553042572781_7519090325663070986_n.jpg

316602148_3414932798739710_6319668659830899087_n.png

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

VP is due an apology. That man should have been allowed to rest in peace and his family should have been allowed to have his memory be whatever it was for them. I hate for them that their father/grandfather etc is now forever internet-associated with something he so comically obviously had not a thing do with.

MV can at least have a case built for him if you start with the tie evidence as gospel and the presumptions made from it as sound. I think the water leaks from the case on the tie particles, the presumptions made from them, and getting him on the plane for a suicidal/murderous terrorist mission after which he went back to a life of bored op-ed writing. Those are some pretty big leaks and I've relayed my thoughts about them privately. But if you go with certain assumptions, I can see how they might lead you to MV as a box to check, and the fact that he looks like the pictures certainly doesn't hurt once you get there. He's fun to consider, and if his family doesn't care, there is at least some justification as to why he's being (temporarily) looked at. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Any sem photos of these crucial particles?

Does Tom say the TiSb  specimen is an alloy?  What process and type of alloy? 

Any isotopic work on these particles ?

Are any of these 'particles' machined?  What "process" are these 'particles' associated with? 

What is Tom's role in all of this ?

Any sand particles associated with the Columbia on the Cooper tie?

Are all of these rare particles being picked up at one location or from multiple locations ?  I guess some have decided its from one location ? The TiSb alloy location ?

What happened to Kaye's friend, the materials expert Dick Stone? Is he still onboard or long gone?

Edited by georger

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, georger said:

Any sem photos of these crucial particles?

Does Tom say the TiSb  specimen is an alloy?  What process and type of alloy? 

Any isotopic work on these particles ?

Are any of these 'particles' machined?  What "process" are these 'particles' associated with? 

What is Tom's role in all of this ?

The SEM photos are like 64 pixels or something like that. 

Tom is missing a part of his scope at the moment. It's on backorder from China, so we're obviously waiting for that to confirm if they are or aren't alloys. 

The family has one of Vordahl's name badges from TIMET from what we believe to be mid-1970's and another from Crucible dating to late 50's or early 60's. Tom has requested that we try and get the family to send him those so he can have them scanned for particles as well.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

Very brief shot from the opening credits of that new horrid I Am DB Cooper movie. Appears to show Rat and Andy giving an interview next to the plane, likely the next morning. Has anyone ever seen this??

Grabbed it from here..

https://archive.org/details/kcrasp035dbcooper

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Edward's still gets the facts wrong and the wrong conclusion,,

https://www.goodreads.com/author_blog_posts/23193030-d-b-cooper-and-flight-305-the-oscillations-and-the-pressure-bump-rev

Rataczak said he was hand flying the plane. IT WAS NOT ON AUTOPILOT..

Then Edwards gets the "suburbs of Portland" out of context..

That was when they called Soderlind,, minutes after Cooper jumped..

Cooper did not jump over the Columbia or beyond the Columbia..

 

As for the oscillations, there were minor ones for some time, normal, then they increased rapidly on the gauge culminating in a physical bump.. this is within seconds not minutes..

An extreme oscillation seen on the gauge was felt as a bump..

Edwards is claiming there is a 7-10 minute separation between the crew reporting oscillations and the bump, this is false and a misread of the evidence.

The bump was an extreme oscillation.

Edited by FLYJACK

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 minutes ago, Andrade1812 said:

I don't understand his reasoning behind moving the time 305 crosses the Columbia to 8:13.

Frankly, it is a mess.

Basically he is claiming the report of oscillations and the bump were two events not separated by seconds but by 7-10 minutes,, 

The crew reported the oscillations about 8:13, but felt the bump after the Columbia.. he claims

He misreads several things and ignores others to get there.

He insists the plane was auto, on auto the pilot wouldn't feel the hijacker on the stairs. It is mentioned in the files but is wrong, Rataczak said he was hand flying the entire time, Scott took over just before Reno and landed. Rataczak also stated he felt Cooper on the stairs.. He reported the mark your shrimpboat comment right away and called Soderlind minutes later.

The other big thing he gets wrong is the reference to "suburbs of Portland" that was the call to Soderlind minutes after the "bump/oscillation".. 

Edwards has the evidence wrong and missed some important points.. He has repeated these errors for some time and for some reason he is fixated on moving the jump zone further south, confirmation bias maybe.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

“”(Referring to the bump or the report of the bump) "They had not yet reached Portland proper but were definitely in the suburbs or immediate vicinity thereof" (First Officer, 1971.) To me, this sounds like they have crossed the Columbia River.“””

Portland proper is literally across the river so how could they have not been in Portland proper once “they have crossed the Columbia River”?

I think it’s clear that they were referring to the suburbs north of the Columbia. “Immediate vicinity thereof” sounds to me like they were closing in on the northern suburbs like Battle Ground. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

42 42