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DB Cooper

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skyjack71


Was finally able to open it - but the flight was further east than what that looks like. Maybe only because I could NOT open the lower portions of it. Something is wrong here - perhaps it is the maps that the FBI provided and Sluggo provided that are wrong.




Here is part of the FBI map, I outlined where V-23 is and Lake Merwin.
"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI

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georger



7. Did Cossey have a memory problem? A cognitive deficit? Or was he just a bad liar – and if so, why was he lying? When we learn the truth of Cossey and his memory, and by extension the cause of his murder, we may be a lot closer to understanding what happened to the FBI’s investigation of DB Cooper.

To me, it is becoming increasingly more plausible that Cossey was part of creating a new image of DB Cooper – one of an incompetent skydiver who died. That action relieves a very real political pressure to lessen the public’s love of Cooper as the guy who beat the system.

Quote



You always wind up bottom feeding and shoot for the political;
prematurely.

At best what you have are contradicting incongruous stories
on the part of multiple individuals, which does not automatically
lead to a conspiracy theory.

For example Haydon: has said multiple times the chutes were
'exactly alike', then above says 'but one was a military version'
(of the other)? That is not alike! Haydon's is just one example.

To complicate things further, your personal bias against
Himmelsbach comes through loud and clear - he won't talk to
you! H is alleged (by you) to have allegedly pushed for Cooper
having died without any firm evidence of the fact. Now you are
enlisting Cossey as a co-conspirator into H's "conspiracy".

What we are left with is confusion. And no good source(s) to
help straighten the confusions out, including the reporter's bias
on top of the other confusions ...

It's not a good model for writing history.

I don't know where Robert got the information that the "not-used chute" was a military canopy. Norman never said that to me, and the FBI document clearly indicates a "luxury, civilian type" parachute.

{Edit: I just re-read the FBI doc, and it does say a military parachute inside the civilan rig. Hmmm. I had never caught that before. So, is the Steinthal that Ckret talked about about, a military chute? Norman's chute is a Steinthal and the serial numbers match what Ckret shared here.}

My bias towards Himmelsbach, as you call it, is more of a concern for his sloppy police work, and a penchant for getting details wrong throughout his Norjak journey.

To Whit:

1. He misspells Bill Rataczak's name in his book, "NORJAK."

2. He presents himself as the primary investigator in the case, and he is clearly not.

3. His statements about the money find are not fully supported by the evidence in Seattle, in particular, there are no substantive shards in Seattle nor any records detailing where and how they were found at Tina Bar, as far as I know.

4. He misplaces Cooper aboard Flight 305.

5. He doesn't explain the obvious contradictions on the flight path, ie: Scott's contention that the plane was over Woodland, the official report saying Ariel, and Himmelsbach claiming Washougal. His book was written over 10 years after the skyjacking and one would hope that his account of Noprjak would be more precise.

6, Himmelbach's contention that Cooper was a rotten, sleazy crook is not supported by the information provided by the FA's, nor does Himms specifically state why he makes the characterization.

7. Himms never talked to Tina when she lived in Portland, and I find that incredulous, in particular since the money was found at "Tina" Bar and she split for the convent shortly afterwards.

8. We have no record or commentary of what Himms or any of his agents did after the money find. Did they ask fishermen if they had found money shards? Yes, no, maybe? Did Himms do what Galen did in 2012?

9. On a personal level, I strongly object to Ralph's insistence on being paid for an interview on Norjak. The taxpayers already paid for the information he has, and I think he is duty bound to share it with the public. Yes, interviews with pesky journalists are a chore, which is why I offered to buy lunch for him and his wife as a way to lessen the sting of talking to me.

10. Releasing the personal contact information on a retired police officer who was in cognito due to wise guys cruising for a revenge hit, as described by George Nuttall, in unconscionable.

That said, I am grateful to Ralph for sharing all that he has.

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mrshutter45

******it's been several weeks now, I can't seem to match the time frames from Toledo to Merwin/Lewis river.
I have no problems matching from take off to Toledo, arriving at 7:59. I am ending my flight time at the Lewis river crossing with a time of 34 minutes of flight. 34 minute and 22 seconds.

If you add the flight time according to the map, it's 33 minutes. if you use my time frame, it's 34 minutes?
this throws off the time slots on the map by one minute. I'm still a little confused at this point and need
guidance on these findings.

I have included a map with estimations only of where the plane was from start to finish.



Remember some posts back when I was examining the maps a few wks ago. I kept saying "Give me one Fricking minute". Just one minute North and it changes the landing zone.

It puts Cooper right where he needed to be - at least for me and what I think from the 1979 trip and the 2010 trip. ONE fricking minute and then everything correlates with everything else - meaning the places he took me and what I now believe to have been the escape route used by Cooper. (I base this on things Duane showed me and told me - and my memory of the places he took me and the things he showed me - but did NOT mention Cooper in those areas).

Cooper was mention only ONE time on that trip and I thought it was a joke. Considering the area at that time we were in - I think it may have been! My mind wants to go back but my body screams NO.

When I was out there in 2010 - the areas looked so different, but I was able to associate time and space and that was a plus.

Now there are areas I need to go back to but, that is physically impossible for me at this time.

I may NEVER get to go back. Now I have to put things in the hands of anyone who can or cares to help. I can talk better than I can walk or sit at this computer. There are those who have my contact information so if I need to verbalize some of what I remember - please do NOT hesitate to call.

Right now for some reason I am crying and I should be elated. A lot of mixed feelings and the pain medication I think intensifies emotions.

Here is wishing AirTwardo a safe jump!

keep in mind that I am still in the testing stages, this does not confirm anything at this moment. these are issue's that have came up in the testing process. nothing should be taken as proof one way or another at this point. I had similar problems in the first part of the path, these were adjusted and didn't affect the path.

at this point I could be doing something wrong in this leg of the path, so we must halt any conclusions at this point. I wouldn't be sure of wanting this time frame, it would put him in the lake if he bailed at 20:11. B|

______________________________________________

Which lake is that again? Isn't it a bit ironic, there was that missing minute from long ago, now a missing minute reappears in your simulation -- not related of course. Nonetheless, the Cooper Vortex rears its eery head again.

MeyerLouie

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skyjack71


Something is wrong here - perhaps it is the maps that the FBI provided and Sluggo provided that are wrong.

The assimilation has the plane WEST of LaCenter when it was EAST of LaCenter. Hell, I can't read the damn things anyway. The map of Sluggos I am going by you can hardly read the areas it is over and planes did NOT turn at angles - they were curves.

My Simple Simon mind sees a problem is with the angles which should be curves. Could or would a curve account for seconds lost/or gained for the route during the entire trip from Seattle to Portland?

Maybe Simple Simon is not so dumb at all if turning the turns into curves and not angle accounts for seconds lost - how many such turns were on the entire trip from Seattle to Portland?



In the area of Merwin to Portland they do take heavy turns VS curves. this area in the air in much smaller that you would think. you don't have time for small curves. the plane does curve around the PDX area.

The distance from the Lewis river, Merwin Lake area to PDX is about 22 Nautical miles. the distance from Battleground to the Columbia is about 10.5 Nautical miles. it's not that big of an area at speed of 170 KIAS.

Here is a pic of the plane at 10,000 as it passes Merwin Lake......B|

I just flew a straight line from the Lewis river to the Columbia crossing. I have a time of 7:37 seconds from point A to point B. the map shows 20:10 to 20:16 but is 7 minutes. B| (winds were not correct though)
"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI

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BruceSmith wrote:

6, Himmelbach's contention that Cooper was a rotten, sleazy crook is not supported by the information provided by the FA's, nor does Himms specifically state why he makes the characterization.

__________________________________________________

Oh, I don' know Bruce, Cooper only extorted $200K and threatened to blow up an aircraft with over 30 people on board. We don't need Mr. H to confirm those facts ... if that doesn't qualify for "rotten, sleazy crook," then what does?

MeyerLouie

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Warning: Off-Topic Post

Another Memorial Day and I get severely bummed every time it comes around. The reason is...I always think about my good buddy Hutch. He died in 1984, but it seems just like yesterday. Here's the short version of his story, which I published in an article titled, Hutch - A Better Man Than I. And he certainly was...

Every Memorial Day I think about my old friend Hutch. He's gone now. We did a lot of things together like camping and fishing, popping off rounds out in the woods, or hanging out in his garage. He didn't talk about himself much.

Hutch was a door gunner on a Huey for two tours in Vietnam. He never offered any details and I didn't ask.

I knew he'd been to 'Nam, but it was six or seven years before he told me how he got that Bronze Star I spotted by accident at his house. I had never seen it before, and I finally worked up the nerve to ask him about it. After he downed the greater part of a bottle of scotch while we sat out in his garage, he finally opened up a little. He had received the medal on his last tour.

Hutch and the crew had landed in an open field to pick up some soldiers who were under heavy mortar and machine-gun fire from the tree line. Several Hueys were already on the ground when they arrived. The incoming fire was tremendous. When Hutch saw a mortar shell explode about a hundred yards away, he also saw a guy fall to the ground where the shell hit. He left his weapon and ran out to pick the guy up.

When he got there, he discovered it was his best friend -
they had joined up together. On their first tour in Vietnam they served in the same unit. On Hutch's second tour, they had been separated. The guy had taken a hit to the legs. Hutch grabbed his friend by the armpits and dragged him toward the Huey. Bullets zipped past and mortar shells exploded everywhere.

About halfway to the Huey, another mortar shell dropped directly between the wounded man's legs. His friend was killed instantly, and a lot of him ended up on Hutch. But Hutch was almost untouched because his friend's body took most of the blast.

Hutch finished dragging him back to the Huey. Then he went back out and helped a few more guys aboard the chopper, before everyone made a quick exit.

Hutch was never the same after that. He told me that when he came home from Vietnam, people spit on him at the airport. He knocked the holy crap out of one of them and he landed in jail for a few days. He began drinking heavily and finally ended up as a Delayed-Stress case.

Hutch eventually found a steady girlfriend and they lived together for many years. She managed to keep him from going completely off the deep end. He was able to hold a good job, but he smoked three packs a day and drank a half bottle of liquor nearly every day. This finally brought him serious heart problems. He had his second heart attack in the mid-1980s while leaving his parents' house after he and his girlfriend were there for dinner - and dropped dead right on their front doorstep. He was only 35 years old.

Every Memorial Day and Veterans' Day I think about him. If I'm out camping I fire off a few shots and say something.

Hutch told me once:
Quote

'The Fourth of July don't mean s__t to me. I mean, there's nothin' wrong with it. Barbecues, fireworks, and all that stuff. But Memorial Day. That's MY day.'



He was really a nice guy. No name on the Wall, he was just another 'unofficial' casualty of the war.


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mrshutter45

******Has anyone ever seen the bust they made of Cooper? it's from the Northwest Museum Of Legends And Lore......

also an interview with the man who made the sketch of Cooper...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1rS68OepZ1A



If that is an accurate bust, Cooper is dead, after his stint on a TV comedy show of course.

Matt

It's possible ya know B|;):D

I was thinking more like Andy Kaufman.

Matt
An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

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mrshutter45

***
Was finally able to open it - but the flight was further east than what that looks like. Maybe only because I could NOT open the lower portions of it. Something is wrong here - perhaps it is the maps that the FBI provided and Sluggo provided that are wrong.




Here is part of the FBI map, I outlined where V-23 is and Lake Merwin.


WELL, that puts him right over the old Grist Mill and the Cemetery Duane pointed out to me from the interstate and we did NOT go there. This is when the talked about knowing a woman from Mt.St.Helens, OR. I had dismissed all of that because of the other things East of there. I mentioned these things WAY back WHEN - in 1996 and until I convinced myself they did NOT correlate with the other places about where he buried something behind a shed where there used to be a tower.

NOW, this is confusing to you guys and it is more confusing to me.

If he landed in that area he would have to get over to the Heisson area for it (the things Duane told me) all to come together and I just do NOT see that - seems like a lot of distance to cover to me. Before I had heard WAY back when that the placard was found near an old cemetery, but do NOT remember where that came from.

Toutle is a long way from the above areas...so I suppose I know little about the finding of the placard....and its exact location.

The Grist Mill and an old cemetery near there - I did not make it to that cemetery on either of my visits. I have heard 2 different stories about the placard and it was discussed when I was out there in 2001, but they were going so fast - and everything was so rushed that it all runs together.

Sluggo had suggested that Duane was out there after the crime with individuals looking for the money, but I could NOT find a time frame that fit into Weber's life. None of the old associates knew of any trip and his best friend he did NOT meet until 1972 and he knows nothing about such a trip. Like he said - Duane would have mentioned it to him or he would have known about it. They worked for the same company off and on, but the guy remained his friend till Duane's death and now calls me to make sure I am OK...and I call he and his wife on special occasions.

All of this is very confusing!
Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

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"WELL, that puts him right over the old Grist Mill and the Cemetery Duane pointed out to me from the interstate and we did NOT go there"

well. you might have a small problem here. back in the 70's all the way into the 2000's if I'm correct. that was the only known jump area, times have now changed and many do not believe Cooper jumped in the time frame on the map....

The transcripts say at 8:10 is the spot where they should check, the FBI puts a different time frame on it, and Rataczak says the jump happened 10-15 minutes past the last contact with Cooper, which was 8:05.
this puts Cooper much further down the path than originally thought. I think the main problem back then was the difference between the oscillation and the pressure bump. if I am incorrect, someone will say something....
"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI

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The night and day pics do NOT seem to a layman to correlate with what the Co-pilot told me and others. The co-pilot was seated on the right side of the plane and he could see the lights (haze) from Vancouver and Portland on his right. Seem to me the plane had to be East of the pics you are showing for that to be true. I do repeated it back to him. I remember that conversation and another coversation about the flight and it did NOT change.

I haven't spoke with him except for a handful of time over these 18 yrs.

We did NOT discuss the flight path other than the first 2 times. The other calls 2 were brief and one was longer - BUT the flight was only discussed in the first 2 conversation.

Of course I know nothing about planes or flight paths - he did try to keep it on an elementary level for me.
Because of his health and his wife's health I do NOT bother him and no longer communicate other than a Christmas card - and I have not done that for a couple of yrs.

I believe he also told others this same thing about seeing the haze of Vancouver and WA when he made a turn - that turn would have been further North than that picture. Perhaps I am a poor judge of distance in planes.

From the simulation - seems like the plane had to be further EAST at that time...for what he told me to be true.

I never could judge things from a plane and it is no different from a simulation. Things look so different from the air.
Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

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Skyjack71 says in part:

Quote

'Before I had heard WAY back when that the placard was found near an old cemetery, but do NOT remember where that came from...'



Trust me. There are no cemeteries in the place where they found the placard, unless they are for deer. That area north of Ariel is mostly Forest Service, or owned by logging companies, especially in the 70's. Even today, there isn't much out there except a lot of woods with logging ops going on.

Hasn't the location of the placard been established already? I don't know...never checked it out much. My guess would be somewhere east of the Castle Rock area.

Attached: A news article taken from when they found it.

EDIT: Another media 'thing' in the article, I see. Last sentence of article says: 'And they found no fingerprints'.

I've always wondered whether Cooper...after he got the door open...just reached up there, tore off the placard, and tossed it out on his own. ('If they find it, maybe they'll think I jumped in THAT area...') It's a bit of a stretch, I'll admit. But I wondered about it anyway.

Nah. Probably just flew off by itself. Who knows?


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Hell, I am more confused about where they think Cooper jumped than I ever was. Never was very clear on it!

Basically ALL I have are the things Duane talked about and what he showed me. We do KNOW he was there for a couple of yrs but can't prove it - so parts of his coversation or ALL of it could have been his memories from those times...with "what-ever he did when he was in WA".

When I found he had been arrested in Spokane prior 1950 that really pissed me off with the FBI. DID not and still do NOT know HOW they supposedly missed this important piece of infomation about Weber's past.
Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

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Jo, those pics are from an area further away from Vancouver, 20 nautical miles away, this is not the area
Rataczak was talking about, this was further up the path.
"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI

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Warning: Off-Topic Post




~ I have one too. :)

* I wrote this almost a decade ago, got to thinking about my father on this Memorial Day and thought I'd share it.

They truly were our greatest generation.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Picture it...
A 17 year old kid out 4 wheelin’ in a jeep with buddies, cruising slow through the tall grass following the river. Been going pretty much ‘balls out’ all morning to get to the spot you're at, but experience tells ya it’s time to maybe play it a little safe and take it easy thorough this particular section.

You come up to the top of a rise in the terrain and there it is, just a few miles ahead...

The last standing bridge across the Rhine river into the heart of Germany.

The day is March 7th 1945, and the ‘kid’ is my father.

A small town boy from Illinois that quit high school to fight for his country, in the 'latest' war to end all wars.

Trained as a tank driver, he was somewhat surprised to find himself reassigned as a machine gunner on the lead scout jeep in a re-con unit for the 9th armored division.

He said it took him all of 4 hours to figure out why he'd been ‘reassigned’, or rather...
just ‘why’ the seat he was now filling was EMPTY!

Sitting up high, on a jeep mounted .30 cal machine gun for the 89th Cavalry (mechanized) Re-Con company ‘C’, 9th Armored Division...was a job with shall we say, a rather significantly high ‘turnover’ rate.

I’d heard the story many times, and my dad took me to see the movie about this important World War 2 battle back in 1969 when it came out.
I've always, from that time, wanted to see where he'd fought, where he'd walked, what was left of ~

“The Bridge At Remagen”

Last week I went.

Faith and I entered the town from the opposite direction that my dad did six decades ago. It’s a small, quaint, sleepy little village along the Rhine.

As we came into town and followed the narrow streets down toward the river, I looked up and said, “It’s farther down to the right.” She asked how I could possibly know that and I pointed out the high peak a mile up river and told her that’s where the 88's were positioned to shoot straight down on the American attackers.

I had seen the little black and white photos dad took, hundreds of times, and the images were ingrained.

A dozen blocks more and I turned down an alley that lead right to the approach to the bridge.

~ ~ I've been a lot of places and seen a lot of things, but nothing could prepare me for the rush of raw emotion and sense of awe that I felt, standing in the shadow of the black stone relics I had been told about since a child.

It was all I could do to keep my composure and sit on the steps leading into what is now a museum, looking across the river at the matching set of black stone towers that once held machine guns aimed at my father.

Faith touched my shoulder and handed me the hat that earlier that morning I’d sewn the 9th Armored patch from dad’s uniform on.
Squeezing my hand as I took it from her, she said simply, “I’ll meet you inside” and knowingly walked away.

I must have sat there for an hour, thinking of the 17 year old kid.....who lied about his age so he could join the Army. The kid who grew up without a father, who sent all his money home to his mother to help raise other kids in the family.

The kid who crawled in the dirt beneath me, with bullets and anti-aircraft shells impacting all around him, and what he must have been thinking then.

I’m sure he wasn't betting on another day alive, much less having a son that 61 years later would be sitting here gazing across the same expanse of water.

He'd come home from that war, married the prettiest gal in town then supported them both while he earned a Masters at Bradley University. ....Not too bad for a High School 'drop-out'!

It was getting hard to breathe and even harder to see, so I walked up toward the door to the museum inside of the once heavily defended towers.
As I reached for my wallet to pay the admission fee, the older German gentleman at the door pointed to my hat... ”Father or Grandfather” he asked, ‘Father’ I replied with a tightness in my throat...

”Go ahead in please, he's already paid ”.

I just nodded and went in. I couldn't muster any words...

The museum was interesting, it told of the history of the bridge and the town. It highlighted the strategic importance of capturing this ‘highway’ across the Rhine and how it likely shortened the war by at least a month and probably saved 10,000 lives all told. I read everything in there and took well over 100 pictures, but I kept wandering back outside.

I crawled all over the structure and walked in and around places not usually ‘open’ to the public. I found a rusty piece of iron and stuck it into a bullet hole in the stone face, chipping out a small rock.
Maybe a hole from bullet that was meant for my father...I dropped the stone in my pocket.

To me... more precious than gold.

Took one more pass through the inside to be certain I hadn't missed anything and then it was time to go. I again nodded to the man selling tickets, this time I was able to thank him properly. He handed me a pen and said, “You MUST sign the guest book”
...took me to a small corner that I hadn't noticed, opened the book and patted me on the back before returning to his job at the door.

I didn't pause for a moment before I began writing...

10-10-06 - James Twardowski
Proud son of Arthur Twardowski - 89th Cav. Re-Con 9th Armored Div.
"It’s with honor and respect that I walk in your footsteps Dad. After seeing all of this, I know that I could never fill your shoes. I love you."

It’s been a tough few months for my family, dad has suffered a series of major strokes and other serious medical setbacks.

He’s been in the hospital for some time, and we’ve been told, he won’t ever come home.

He’s done quite well for himself, and us.
...he’s getting the best care possible, but all we can really do is try to make him comfortable until the end. My father and I have always been close.
It’s a constant cloud over me of late, and of course the sadness of what’s coming does weigh.

For some reason, for a while that day anyway, that weight seemed off my shoulders. I was walking a little lighter, a bit straighter...

I’d actually gotten to be with the ole man again, in a way I’d never imagined, a way I'll never forget! I don’t particularly have a lot of pride in who I am, what I’ve accomplished...

But thankfully, there IS some of him inside me...and ya know...that’s enough.










~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

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mrshutter45

Jo, those pics are from an area further away from Vancouver, 20 nautical miles away, this is not the area
Rataczak was talking about, this was further up the path.




Oh Okay - at least I did NOT misunderstand what he was telling me.
So they are on top of Vancouver in those shots you posted.

I do NOT like to fly!
Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

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skyjack71

***Jo, those pics are from an area further away from Vancouver, 20 nautical miles away, this is not the area
Rataczak was talking about, this was further up the path.




Oh Okay - at least I did NOT misunderstand what he was telling me.
So they are on top of Vancouver in those shots you posted.

I do NOT like to fly!

the shots are from the Lake Merwin area, Vancouver is miles ahead. also I don't have any cloud coverage in these pics. do you know where Rat claims he could see Portland out his right side window? it goes against the known path......it's possible he was in the Battleground area, that would put his view to the right, I'll check...

I think I even stated Vancouver in one of the pics for reference locations....
"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI

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it's possible he was talking about the locations at 20:14 to 20:16. these positions would put Portland in his right window.........20:15 would be my guess looking from the sim window......
"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI

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Quote

I have one too. :)
I wrote this almost a decade ago, got to thinking about my father on this Memorial Day and thought I'd share it.

They truly were our greatest generation.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

That was a great story and I am glad you shared it with us. Actually had a tear running down my cheek on the end.

The newspapers had story after story today - but, your story was the best I read this Memorial Day.
Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

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If I remember correctly (note I did NOT record him) is that he could see light or haze from the right window of Vancouver/Portland. I do not remember the words he said - but he had a reason to look to his right...away from the controls. He was probably changing co-ordinates.

When the thread was trying to put the flight WEST of Portland - I went to the notes to make sure I had heard the Co-pilot correctly. My note specifically said to his right he saw the "lights" Haze that was Portland to his right.

I did ask him about that again in the next to the last call...when he contacted me about re-connecting to Tina. I asked a brief question and the answer was the same. Our conversation did NOT center on the flight - it was about the bag and the crew and what he saw! He and I both described the same damn bag and this was when he told me that money did NOT come on that plane in a WHITE BANK BAG.

We both describe the same damn bag - finishing each others sentence.
From the strap the corners to the color.

In 1996 I had asked MR. H about a bag I took to the mission about a week before he and I spoke to each other for the first time. He insisted it was a Whitish Bank Bag and the bag I was describing had NOTHING to do with the crime. Then YRS later (in the last 3 yrs) the co-pilot he and I described this same bag to each other.

To damn many mistakes and the FBI's own doesn't know the real story.
Tina KNOWS what that money went on that plane in - SHE carried it on to the plane. (She is not talking to anyone) I had surmised that she found Cooper something to put the bag into because he was upset about the container....because the illustrated pictures in the book show a bag with a rope around it.

Then YRS later the co-pilot describe a bag to me and we finish each other sentence. So what did the Fricking money go out of that plane in? If Cooper asked for a Knapsack and they sent a white bank bag with no closure - he could have gotten mad and blew the plane up on the tarmack.

SO WHAT was the money put into at the bank to transport it to the plane? What Himmelsbach claimed or what the Co-pilot saw go on the DAMNED plane. WHY all of the different stories and why all of the secrets? WHY didn't Himmelsbach tell me to go get that bag? Tina damn sure knew what that money went out of the plane in.

Did she have to go into a convent, because the FBI pressured her and her faith would NOT let her continue the charade? Was it all the GAME playing the FBI did that drove Tina into seclusion? No do not tell anyone that or this - you have to keep this secret. Hell that is one piece of BAGGAGE for a single girl in her 20's to carry around - you THINK! It was NOT just Cooper who stole Tina's life!
Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

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The previous post by Jo was pretty emotional. The bag, Tina, etc.

It doesn't really matter what bag was used, unless someone finds the remains of that bag in someone's house, or the woods. Ask the people who did the actual delivery of the funds to SeaTac, or whoever packed the bundles into the bag. Then you will know the type. Rataczak has described it as a 'hapsack with leather handles'.

Tina Mucklow, God bless her, was a young religious girl at the time of the hijacking. Schaffner has said she proselytized sometimes with other NWA crew. It's hard to figure her out. Maybe like this: She was the beautiful stew that you had a crush on when you saw her in flight, but you never had a chance with her unless you were with Jesus. And then only maybe.

Her life changed after the hijacking. Not only did she have the holy crap scared out of her, and was forced to be the only crew member to deal with the hijacker, but she was YOUNG. After the stair-rattling landing in Reno, she was (in my humble opinion) ill-prepared to deal with what happened next. They should give her the Presidential Medal of Freedom for helping save everyones' lives and landing safely in Reno.

And what did it really cost?
Two hundred grand from a cheap-ass, strike-ridden airline. :)
And all the money spent by the FBI trying to CATCH Cooper? I wouldn't count that. It's their job, and the Feds have wasted much more money elsewhere anyway. The FBI's record is pretty good, too. Jimmy Stewart says so. :)


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Blevins wrote
Quote

Tina Mucklow, God bless her, was a young religious girl at the time of the hijacking. Schaffner has said she proselytized sometimes with other NWA crew. It's hard to figure her out. Maybe like this: She was the beautiful stew that you had a crush on when you saw her in flight, but you never had a chance with her unless you were with Jesus. And then only maybe. I don't know.



Marc Cohn wrote this lyric from Walking in Memphis.

"Tell me are you a Christian child?"
And I said "Ma'am I am tonight"

377
2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

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RobertMBlevins

The previous post by Jo was pretty emotional. The bag, Tina, etc.

It doesn't really matter what bag was used, unless someone finds the remains of that bag in someone's house, or the woods. Ask the people who did the actual delivery of the funds to SeaTac, or whoever packed the bundles into the bag. Then you will know the type. Rataczak has described it as a 'hapsack with leather handles'.

Tina Mucklow, God bless her, was a young religious girl at the time of the hijacking. Schaffner has said she proselytized sometimes with other NWA crew. It's hard to figure her out. Maybe like this: She was the beautiful stew that you had a crush on when you saw her in flight, but you never had a chance with her unless you were with Jesus. And then only maybe.

Her life changed after the hijacking. Not only did she have the holy crap scared out of her, and was forced to be the only crew member to deal with the hijacker, but she was YOUNG. After the stair-rattling landing in Reno, she was (in my humble opinion) ill-prepared to deal with what happened next. They should give her the Presidential Medal of Freedom for helping save everyones' lives and landing safely in Reno.

And what did it really cost?
Two hundred grand from a cheap-ass, strike-ridden airline. :)
And all the money spent by the FBI trying to CATCH Cooper? I wouldn't count that. It's their job, and the Feds have wasted much more money elsewhere anyway. The FBI's record is pretty good, too. Jimmy Stewart says so. :)



_______________________________________________

Blevins, can you be just little more melodramatic? You went from Jesus to holy crap (very sacriligious I might add) to Tina to Jimmy Stewart. If Tina was so traumatized, as you say, then why did she jokingly ask for a bundle of the money, then when Cooper offered it, she mischievously declined? She actually complimented Cooper on his good behavior. She doesn't look terribly traumatized in that picture of her afterwards. Just making stuff up again in your quest to be Drama Queen, Blevie?

She was forced to be the only one to deal with the hijacker? What about the other crew members who were on board during the ordeal? What were they, chopped liver?

You're not making outlandish, ridiculous, off-the-top-of- your-head kind of comments again, are you, Blevie, Drama Queen, Troll, Sheeple -- whatever you are?

It's 2:45 am, Blevie. Screw you.

MeyerLouie

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Bruce Smith wrote:

7. Himms never talked to Tina when she lived in Portland, and I find that incredulous, in particular since the money was found at "Tina" Bar and she split for the convent shortly afterwards.
.....
9. On a personal level, I strongly object to Ralph's insistence on being paid for an interview on Norjak. The taxpayers already paid for the information he has, and I think he is duty bound to share it with the public. Yes, interviews with pesky journalists are a chore, which is why I offered to buy lunch for him and his wife as a way to lessen the sting of talking to me.

_______________________________________________

Had to come back to your 'top 10' list again, Bruce. I've been thinking on it....

I agree with on #9, it does seem a bit tacky to be charging for his knowledge of the case. But in my brief conversation with Mr. H a long time ago, I got the impression he was pretty tired of all those people with all those crazy questions and, at times, unpleasant, disrespectful behavior. It might have been his way to weed out the crazy, obnoxious, unpleasant people he was forced to deal with over the years.

On your #7, yeah, was it coincidence or not? Tina lived n east Portland, Mr. H is from Portland, and the money is found at Tena Bar, west of Portland. Truth is stranger than fiction, you can't make this stuff up! Also, I think it's "Tena" Bar, and "Tina" Mucklow. Another nebulously nefarious twist in the Cooper Vortex.

MeyerLouie

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377

Blevins wrote

Quote

Tina Mucklow, God bless her, was a young religious girl at the time of the hijacking. Schaffner has said she proselytized sometimes with other NWA crew. It's hard to figure her out. Maybe like this: She was the beautiful stew that you had a crush on when you saw her in flight, but you never had a chance with her unless you were with Jesus. And then only maybe. I don't know.



Marc Cohn wrote this lyric from Walking in Memphis.

"Tell me are you a Christian child?"
And I said "Ma'am I am tonight"

377



_______________________________________________

Those Christian girls, I did know a couple back in the day. If you didn't go to church with her, well then those Friday nights watching movies on the couch weren't gonna be all that exciting, if you know what I mean. I tell you, 377, it ain't easy being a recovering Catholic -- all that guilt!

MeyerLouie

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Jo:

You say:
"I believe he also told others this same thing about seeing the haze of Vancouver and WA when he made a turn - that turn would have been further North than that picture. Perhaps I am a poor judge of distance in planes."

I say:
Wonder if the co-pilot was talking about the "glow in the clouds over Vancouver" when he says "haze of Vancouver"? I have seen this many times when there is cloud cover and storm over Vancouver/Portland. I believe he knew from his watch and when he saw the glow in the clouds, he then knew when to jump. If he had backed down the stairs as Beliven thinks, DB could have been looking forward and seen the glow in the clouds over Vancouver (and possibly over Portland too) and then knew when to jump. If he left his car in Vancouver, it would have been a short walk (5 to 10 miles) to his getaway car. Totally escaped in his car before midnight.

Bob Sailshaw
sailshaw@aol.com

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