smokin99

Drawing by Dave Gold, one of literally thousands of parachute-related items now at Wright.edu in their Dave Gold Parachute Collection. You can find the PDF by searching on Dave Gold, etc. Date of the drawing by Gold is 1948. So your guess at 1953 could be correct. First thing I thought when I saw the massive, literally unending list of Gold's parachute-related collection was this: I'll bet every jumper at DZ already knows this guy. He might even have reached godlike status by now. I think Wright actually has a museum for his stuff. I saw something about the boxes they keep it all in stretched out over a hundred feet in length. Yes, I think it is a fairly well-known collection if you've ever searched for the words parachute and history in the same string. The mother lode, but I think the problem is finding much on line (other than the index of what's in the collection at Wright). but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill

If the pics are too big I will delete.. The main point that I see in all of this at the end of the day is that there is decent documentation that Cossey at least packed the parachutes. In that sense they were "his" chutes and he was the "go to" guy because he packed them and he was the "master rigger" with knowledge of parachutes. As I've said before I think the fish got bigger and bigger and why let a few details spoil a good story. LOL -- why some folks on here would have a problem with that is beyond me. It also looks like his name is on the chest container. Someone with better eyes than I will have to come up with the date though for some reason I think I see Oct 1953. [inline Parachute_Bag.jpg] [inline PBcloseup.jpg] but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill

I know details and accuracy aren't important to some folks that have a habit of just throwing any ole thing out there, but just to set the record straight..... Robert, You said that Bruce did not "steal" the parachute document from Gray and that the document has been on the vault for years. Then you gave the impression that you presented it here to uncover some truth. If you can prove otherwise from the below please do. The parachute document was originally posted here at the dropzone as a jpg attachment of a screenshot, by 377 who received it from snowmman. I posted a link to the actual pdf shortly thereafter. The pdf originated from Geoff Grays Hunt for DB Cooper web site project files which apparently he inadvertently? or not? left unprotected. After it was posted here, and set off a LOT of discussion, Gray closed access and, if memory serves, proceeded to post an article about it on his website. So.... since it was not found anywhere else I'm assuming Geoff copied it from the FBI files (those same files that you said he didn't copy and was only able to look at), and Bruce likely got it from either Geoff's site or here. Apparently, since Geoff is walking around free and hasn't been charged with purloining/distributing classified government property and/or "active case file data", I will also assume that he didn't steal it and/or had permission to copy it. Either way -- the only FBI vault that I am aware of related to Mr. Cooper "primarily" has a bunch of useless stuff like newspaper articles many of which are basically unreadable excerpts that you can read a lot easier elsewhere. Even the money list is easier viewed in Tosaw's book if you are inclined to go looking for old twenties. Pretty sure that vault has never contained the parachute document. Those same 7 pdfs have been there forever. And....just a reminder...what everyone thought was "found" news that had never been uncovered before (just like the Dan Cooper comic connection) was actually reported on in newspaper articles before the internet was a twinkle in Al Gore's eye. but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill

lol.... then you'll fit right in with the rest of us.

lol.... then you'll fit right in with the rest of us.

At this point we don't have enough information to know whether he was right or wrong. Additionally, the FBI said that Cossey was not the only source they relied upon.. whether you believe them or not, or spin anything else that they said -- it was reported that other experts were consulted. And please....... I know all of your arguments -- they just aren't sustainable. As for as them saying it is still evidence in a case, I think that is just their standard response: on-going case and can't comment. Face it, unfortunately, they don't have to tell us anything. Actually, I have to hand it to the Seattle FBI for answering my very occasional questions. They return the email, they call the office. It was only when I asked about the Amboy chute that they told me it was still evidence. I'm a fairly straightforward guy. My next question would be, 'How could it be evidence if it was dismissed as evidence five years ago?' Makes sense to me.

Yes, I remember reading this. And he is probably right as far as nylon was the norm for parachutes and overall, silks were gone. I'm certainly not an expert, but I just don't think it is historically accurate as to manufacturing, sale, or export of silk chutes fro the mills. Yes by 1946, the majority of manufacturers had crossed over, but not all. I looked at some mfg data, export, and government data when all this was discussed way back when and it "appears" that some mills were still mfg real silk parachutes in 1946. But hey, maybe that was leftover inventory and they went on and used it instead of cutting it all up into hankies. LOL...I just think about betamax. Think how long that tried to hang around after it was clear they were gone. Okay maybe that analogy is a stretch, but think about it from a mfg point of view. When nylon came around it didn't just appear when all the silk was gone and all of a sudden overnight everyone is using this great new stuff. Nylon had to be tested. ........So it's tested and Now it's the new thing, but you aren't gong to be able to switch overnight. Even after you do switch, what are you gonna do with the leftover silk - that's a lot of scarves......so you call up Joe who you happen to know in procurement for the forestry service and say you've got some old chutes in the back that are already sewn up.....make you a good deal. Silk worked 4 years ago...it still works. Maybe it's the cultural goggles thing but I just can't imagine that everything turned on a dime back then.... And then again, I could be wrong. but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill

At this point we don't have enough information to know whether he was right or wrong. Additionally, the FBI said that Cossey was not the only source they relied upon.. whether you believe them or not, or spin anything else that they said -- it was reported that other experts were consulted. And please....... I know all of your arguments -- they just aren't sustainable. As for as them saying it is still evidence in a case, I think that is just their standard response: on-going case and can't comment. Face it, unfortunately, they don't have to tell us anything. but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill

Well first - if we are talking history I think it's is pretty important to be accurate. logic says ... if you say that he cannot summarily dismiss it based on historical events....., then you need to be accurate in your assessment of those historical events. I don't know if it was silk. It could have been first gen nylon, but I do not rule out that it was a cargo chute made of silk in 1946. Or even that it was a chute that was sewn prior to 46 and serialized when it was harnessed or sold. I also believe this -- regardless of the actions by the FBI regarding the Amboy chute.... or who did or did not look at it, I believe that a master rigger should know something about chute material. I might be wrong, but I don't think you can totally dismiss Cossey's credentials in this area. And I also don't think you can believe everything you read. "Yeah I knew in the first ten seconds it wasn't the chute" is probably just Earl Cossey posturing for the media. I will admit he did a lot of that. But yes, it is my admittedly non-expert opinion that the Amboy chute close-up did not look like the material poking out of the chute that Sailshaw had a picture of -- that I believe he said was Hayden's. (And before you go there -I'm not talking about the color, condition, etc.) Hey not that we will ever be told anyway, but I might be wrong. It happens occasionally

.......... On a simpler point, one of the reasons I never believed the dismissal of the chute based on Cossey's 'It's silk, and the one I gave to Cooper was nylon...' Is because after December 7, 1941 silk production and importation virtually ceased in the United States for some years afterward. The chute is almost certainly not made of silk, and that explanation for dismissal appears in article after article about it. It simply doesn't make sense. There you go again. I'm no silk expert but this is just historically inaccurate. First, US production of silk has never been much of a success. That is why we had to import it from other countries, principally Japan. Second. The US ceasing import of Japanese silk did not mean that all of the stores of silk in the United States disappeared overnight. Actually what happened in 1941 is that the US government froze the imports and commandeered all existing US companies inventories of silk. The existing stock was mandated for government use only for things like parachutes, surgical sutures, electrical insulation. Processing silk for civilian use was prohibited. Over the next few years, as the supply dwindled, they had to come up with an alternative. This still did not mean that silk chutes totally disappeared as some companies used up their supply while others quickly re-tooled for the new material. According to export records, we were also still supplying some other countries with silk parachute cloth in the mid to late 40s. I have posted all of this before as well as documentation that showed that while limited, silk parachutes were still being manufactured in some mills in the mid 40s. But really - even if the chute was not silk and was a first generation nylon - in the pictures it did not look like rip-stop nylon - even to my untrained eye. If the chutes supplied to the hijacker were made of the material that was shown at the Washington historical exhibit that Sailsaw posted....then all the wishes in the world won't turn it into what has been photographed as the Amboy chute. but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill

Something's hinky with my firefox tonight - not loading pages all the way - guess it's telling me I need to get off the internet and go to bed -- only read the first part but looks to be very interesting so far. Anyway ...I got my copy - just saving it for the weekend. Dead tired from staying up too late wrestlin alligators and swimming with sharks. (lol...and no I'm not talking about Blevins - I'm doing taxes and then trying to do a full day at the coal mine. Us girls never get a break. Anyway -- looking good so far! but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill

Well, you asked the same damn question three times, like I'm your personal Google researcher... Then when I took the time to screenshot and edit the actual email I sent the Seattle FBI...where it mentions I referenced the articles... You didn't even bother with an answer. So next time, don't bother asking. Save us both a lot of time.

lol...Good night, for real this time. I'm betting myself 100 dollars to my favorite charity that I will respond if he posts again. lol...got to see how strong the addiction is....... but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill

Notice she doesn't say anything about anyone being allowed to examine the chute in person. ***'...from the people we SPOKE to...' In fact, when Cossey saw it, they actually put it into the trunk of a car and drove it to his house. Look, if you don't believe that's how it went down with the investigation into the chute, you should inquire with the FBI. I never said what I believe, Robert. I just said that you were claiming something that didn't have any basis is fact. By no definition is "speaking to someone" exclusive to a telephone. Dang, you just lost your charity 100 easy dollars. I knew you couldn't resist, but I actually had a infinitesimal twinge of surprise... or maybe it was disappointment that some poor rescued cats might now miss a meal.

I fully support this book, Bruce....and then all that other stuff. Lord, have mercy. This is not funny, and I gave Bruce good advice. Go ahead and review the book, give it a glowing five stars without a comprehensive reason why...see what happens. ............................................................................................................ I'm constantly amazed and astounded. I didn't say it was funny, Robert, and I don't doubt that you can and will give him all the advice that he can stomach. And I'm not disavowing any accomplishments or knowledge you have -- if I remember correctly you learned about shill reviews the hard way -- but who in the world said anything about giving him shill reviews or that they give a rat's eyeball whether you support him or not. To be honest, I just thought that it was kind of pathetic that Bruce comes on here very excited about his new book, and you start in on what he should do or shouldn't do and how you know best, and he better check this and check that because it sounds like he might be wrong, and you know it because yada yada, yada whatever --- instead of just, for once ---At least for your first response --- offering a simple "congratulations, Bruce" and being done with it. No offense, Robert, but everything is just not all about you. Sometimes less is more. Good night. but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill