A thought for Newbies Giving Advice

[StevePhelps 0]

One simple rule at our small DZ. We tell all of the students to ask a yellow shirt staff person for advice. They will give it (if qualified) or refer to someone else.

You'd be surprised at some of the "advice" I've heard gieven before that rule was instated.

[Newbie 0]

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Tonto i agree with what you are saying, but re: the "do nothing if they are more experienced than you" comment, is this really what you want us new guys to do?

The question was "Say I see someone doing something very dangerous."

This indicates and act, rather than an ommision. Yes. By all means, if you see something you know to be wrong point that out. I mentioned specifics. Please don't hold me to what I never said.

t

thanks - yeah i figured it was more to do with doing something dangerous rather than newbies commenting in general on stuff.

"Skydiving is a door"
Happythoughts

[DJL 232]

This is what I do. I'm a new jumper and if I think I know the answer to something then I'll phrase it, "Hey, I only have 180 jumps but from what I understand, the answer is X." One of the best ways to learn is to be vocal. That way, your stupid assumptions can get shot down and you learn along with the person asking the question. The wrong thing to do is to send PM's with your lofty knowledge or to try to instruct students at your DZ when you don't know shit for yourself.

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[skypuppy 1]

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Like I said, I wasn't talking about you, just in general. What I didn't say, was that I wasn't talking "real world" either... I've noticed sometimes that posts on here sometimes go beyond the understanding of a new jumper, so they ask questions, and depending on their personality, sometimes that somes across as arguing. A lot gets lost over the net, mostly tone of voice, and facial expressions. I wasn't making a point about a specific case, just in general.

The posts that started all this were definitely NOT questions - they were I here what you say but I'm going to do it this way - which may lead to other newbies trying to do the WRONG THING, and getting hurt... Thus, she got flamed, and justifiably...

If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead.
Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone

[msmithd8769 0]

***[/in reply to]
A change on this site? Status on the "formal" forums should be on a jump numbers/years in the sport/disipline experience formula, and should be clearly displayed for all to see.

[Tonto 1]

You're right.

It can't be enforced.

SkydiveNFlorida has 500000 jumps listed in her profile. That's just bullshit.

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[Michele 1]

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SkydiveNFlorida has 500000 jumps listed in her profile. That's just bullshit.

ROFLMAO.

And on the other extreme, you have Jan Meyer, who insists her posts be assessed by content only, and not by numbers in a profile (something along those lines was her signature unless she's changed it).

So that doesn't seem to be a realistic solution.

Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[fool 0]

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The posts that started all this were definitely NOT questions - they were I here what you say but I'm going to do it this way - which may lead to other newbies trying to do the WRONG THING, and getting hurt... Thus, she got flamed, and justifiably

OK, my bad then... I thought this was its own post. I know that it was obviously inspired by something, but since there was no link to it, or no specific reference to it, I just took it for what I read. I don't know for sure if I read the post that started all this or not, so no further comment from me.

S.E.X. party #1

"Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting "f*#k, what a ride".

[Ron 7]

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What I find interesting is that you've assumed I don't already have the answer... therefore, you have assumed that newbies
don't have answers. By this assumption, you negate all the experience I've had, listened to, learned, and absorbed.

You may have the answer, but not the total answer,the correct answer for that person, or the knowledge base to get that information to them.

Lets say that someone is having a problem with their landings...You tell them what you know from your experience.
(I know you have gone through canopy training)

But lets say they are jumping an Aerodyne SR-71,a Prodigy, or an Xcaliber. While your advice might work well on a Navigator....It might really hurt them if they try it on these canopies. Or maybe you learned in Chicago, and you were jumping a 1.1 loaded canopy at 20 jumps...And he learned on a Maverick....Both very different canopies and totaly different problems. You have to know this to give advice.

When my old DZ first got the Navigators, all the instructors had to jump them to be able to understand how they flew.

I know I guy with a broken leg...He had a 170, and wanted to down size. So he got a Safire 149. However, a Safire 149 is really about the size of a 135. So at 100 jumps he was on a 1.5 loaded canopy....He thought he was going to be loading it around 1.2,1.3. Several folks didn't know that the Safire was measured differently told him he would be fine. So while he might have been fine under a real 150 sized canopy...He was not ready for a 135. The people giving advice didn't know about the size difference, and while their advice might have been OK for a 150, since they didn't know he jumped a 135.

I don't teach AFF students...I don't even talk to them if they ask me a question. I take them to an AFF Instructor (If I can I take them to THEIR AFF I). Now I have 3,000 jumps, been a static line Instructor since like 1994, I coach 4 way teams, and I coach in the tunnel...NONE OF THIS MAKES ME QUALIFIED TO TEACH AN AFF STUDENT. Could I do it? Maybe, but Im not qualified so I don't. And I might screw with the instructors big plan by trying to teach them something before they are ready.

By giving advice...even if its right, you could be causing more problems than you are fixing.

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By negating that, you create an issue in confidence in the newer jumper.

No I see it as giving more credit to the folks that are qualified, than negating the newer jumpers knowledge. Again you can cause more trouble than you fix if you don't have the knowledge base to work from. I see AFF I's from other DZ's who are asked to help at my DZ teach the wrong TLA's for a dive...(Not so much since the ISP, but it used to be that way)

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If I saw someone with a chest strap undone, I would not wait for someone to say anything...I'd say something. (Done that.)
If the winds are too high, I will back myself off the load. (Done that during a boogie for newbies, and 1/2 my group followed my
lead.)
If the jump is too dangerous - too many new things going on, I'll back off it (done that.)

All great...When you see a SAFTEY issue...By all means open your mouth. The chest strap is a perfect example.

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If someone is creating an issue with the landing pattern, flying badly/dangerously, I will speak with them about it (done that.

It might be better to have an S&TA or instructor talk to them.....Just cause the person might take advice from them better than from you..Again you might have the right advice, but with 100 jumps they might not listen.

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If someone asks me about flat turns, I will teach them what I know (done that).

In this case it would be better to take them to an Instructor. You have knowledge, but not much experience. You may forget something, or not be able to get the whole picture....Why should you teach it when there are qualified folks walking around...(Like I said I don't teach AFF students even though I know what to say)

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If someone is talking about going to a canopy which is, imho, too small, I will talk to them, and encourage them to go to a
canopy class (done that. Most listened; the one who didn't broke his tailbone).

Again a SAFTEY issue...Not about instruction. But still the local swoop god is more QUALIFIED to answer his questions than you. And he might take that info from a guy on the pro swoop tour, and not from someone with 100 jumps.

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If someone asks me about swooping, I grab their hand and lead them over to the school, and get them talking with someone.
(done that...)

And thats what you should do....

Its about QUALIFICATIONS....not knowledge. The people that have the qualifications have shown that they have the knowledge, the whole picture, and know how to teach it.

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My point is that while I know I am not the one you are referring to, I am a newer jumper. I am not stupid. I don't like having my
experience - short as it may be - negated by assumptive thinking, and I don't understand why anyone wouldn't listen to
someone - no matter how many jumps - if the advice is sound.

The reason is that the advice may SOUND good, but may not be the correct advice.

If you ask me how to do a turn Im going to tell you to use your knees, dig one down and lay it over, paddle the hands and at no time go past 45 degrees with any control service or bend your spine. If not done right it will flip you over on your back. So an AFF student does not need to know that.

At one time the hot ticket to turn was to bend your spine...So while you may have knowledge...It may not be right.

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Further, I contend that high number jumpers have a problem, as well, in focussing on the tree while looking at the forest, and
giving advice which may not be applicable to the newer jumper.

Again its about QUALIFICATION, not knowledge...An Instructor or an S&TA has both. You have only one. I would sugest that people take knowledge from people with qualifications....not just knowledge...I have show here several times that the knowledge may be wrong, not right for that application, or outdated.

If you want to learn to swoop find a swoop course. Want to learn to freefly? Get a freefly coach. Want to learn to turn 4way? Get a 4way coach. Want to prepare for the AFF eval course? Get an AFF evaluator and work with them.

It would be stupid for you to get Freefly advice from me (I have maybe 100 FF jumps)...And I would be stupid to give it to you. But some folks on here, and at the DZ will give it even if they are not qualified.

I would say that unless you have the QUALIFICATIONS....Please bring up saftey issues "Hey dude your chest strap is undone", but don't TEACH people how to do things...Direct them to someone who is qualified. you may do more harm than good.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[skymick 0]

I think you pretty much sum it up perfectly with this line:

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I would say that unless you have the QUALIFICATIONS....Please bring up saftey issues "Hey dude your chest strap is undone", but don't TEACH people how to do things...Direct them to someone who is qualified. you may do more harm than good.

[rushmc 18]

Free forums or free country. People, who ever, and what ever their levels of experience can, will and should be allowed to speak their minds!! Whether or not they should does not appear to me to be the issue. Why, because I have gotten good info/advice from relatively new jumpers and some really bad from high number jumpers. and I will not put the responsibility of the usage of any advise on the one that gives it!!!! You don't have to listen.

What it boils down to is "I" am responsible for me!!!! In the end I made the decision and I think attitude is what causes more problems in our sport than anyone giving good or bad advise.

Sorry I am off my soap box now........

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[gus 1]

I think that the empasis in this thread is back to front. Rather than discouraging people from sharing their opinions, experiences and giving advice we should be encouraging the people that are seeking that advice to realise that its quality can depend on who's giving it. Take everything in context.

Gus

OutpatientsOnline.com

[Nightingale 0]

an excellent point.

The experienced folks on this forum are very good about pouncing on misinformation. If everyone is encouraged to post, not so much advice but a "this is what I would do in that situation" post, then everyone has the opportunity to learn. The person posting what they would do has the chance to get feedback from more experienced folks as well.

[jumpingjoe 0]

I have a friend who has been a skydiver for about 12 years or so. When I started AFF, he was really excited for me but told me not to take it personally if I felt like he was ignoring me. He wanted to let me take it all in from my AFF instructors first. He left the advice to the instructors.

After I graduated though....he has been very supportive as a coach.

Me being a newbie myself, I share with others what has been shared with me. But I know that I am by no means qualified to be giving advice.

One thing that a few of newbies did do is challenge some of the experienced guys knowledge of the AFF tests. It was quite amusing watching some of the all knowing struggle.

[beej 0]

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However, a Safire 149 is really about the size of a 135

Would you by chance know the actual size of a safire 190?

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If the shit fits - wear it (blues brothers)--

[PhreeZone 15]

About 175 PD feet. Take the Safire size *.93 = PD footage.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[beej 0]

well ill be damned... thats why i burned in in 99 on a demo canopy! lmao

----------------------------------------------------
If the shit fits - wear it (blues brothers)--

[jumpinjackflash 0]

One other for me (he who never shuts up) is I've noticed, always, the more experienced usually often append to the advice they give.

"check with your instructors/jumpmasters..."

This says it all to me, since, even though they are speaking from years of knowledge, they have the wisdom to realize the instructor may be teaching something a bit differently. Not necessarily "wrong" just different.

We all know that when your in the sky and shit starts going haywire, brainfart kicks in and your not real capable of doing "the right thing", you tend to do whatever you had pounded into your skull (hopefully). So it is important that "the basics" be delivered consistently all the time, repetition can be a lifesaver...

Also, as a newbie, I love hearing all the new perspectives as well. However, I take everything with a grain of salt and discuss with all of those that I admire and respect in this sport. I question pretty much everything, but I have approx five people I run things by, if all five concur, then I'm golden.

Coolest thing? DZ.com is full of bright talented jm's and instructors, and you all usually do a real good job of keeping us greenhorns in line.

I've learned tons on here, and I always discuss with my jm's, etc... People like Skybytch, BillVon, Sangiro, and tons others, way cool, thanks for sharing all your knowledge with us.



Blue Skies, Happy Holidays and Warmest of wishes to you all,


Jack

It's a gas, gas, gas...

[MakeItHappen 15]

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There has been a lot of chatter and newbies saying why they should be allowed to give advice etc....

But let me ask you this - if your advice was directly responsible for someone's death, how would you react, and how would it affect your life? Could you handle it?

If you spend enough time in this sport, you will watch your friends die - don't rush that timeline. This sport loses a lot of its appeal after you bury a friend.

Now - do you still want to give that advice? Do you think you are qualified enough?

I think this conversation about whom to take advice from or who can give advice has taken a turn for the worst.

It is not only a matter of experience.

There are plenty of experienced jumpers that give advice that is completely wrong, sometimes downright dangerous if followed.

The same can be said, albeit more frequently, for newer jumpers.

The advice you receive - anywhere- must be given context. In some contexts the advice is good, in another situation it would not be ok.

To assume that all jumpers with more experience (meaning jump numbers in your specific discipline) than you ALWAYS spoke the TRUTH is just plain stupid.

There are various other social factors that go into what someone says about such-n-such event or activity.

I have seen organizers over the years invite people onto loads, just to get the prerequisite body count. These people did not have the air skills to match the load. I had one friend get his leg smashed by a 20-jump wonder - going out last on a 20-way. The 20-jump wonder jumper went in.

On another jump, by a different organizer, a jumper collided with another jumper. One jumper died. I've seen other jumpers realize that they were 'in over their heads' and get off of a load that they were 'invited on'.

I had an organizer ask me to take up a 20-way 'to see what type of altitude we could get' with a solid overcast at 3K.

Perhaps the most dramatic social pressure I've seen in this area was the 50-way night dive. We had an aborted jumprun on the first attempt. At least 8 people told me afterwards that they really did not want to do the jump and if it was cancelled - that would be okay with them. We circled up just prior to going for another attempt, approaching the midnight hour. Not a single person backed out. No one wanted to be the first to say 'maybe this is not such a good idea after all'. We went up and did the jump. A record was set. We did not listen to those real people or imaginary voices that said it could not be done or that it was too dangerous. Sometimes you listen to the advice, sometimes not.

Another friend decided NOT to jump on one jump of a World Record attempt because people in the plane were hypoxic and the weather was marginal. It takes very strong conviction in knowing what is safe and what is NOT safe. This jumper chose a path. It was completely justified in my book - don't know how the others saw it. I do know that it took more courage to say 'this dive is way out of control & I'm backing off' than it did to go do the jump.

The point is that there is no definitive answer as to whom to believe and who to dismiss. It depends upon context.

I will reiterate that you should take advice in context. Judge the merits of the post by what is said, not just by who said it.

With all that being said and knowing there is a large new jumper readership here. What applies to lots of experienced jumpers may not always apply to new jumpers.

For instance, we ask first time jumpers to pull at 4,500ft (or there abouts). This is not acceptable for licensed jumpers unless they let manifest know or are doing CRW.

If I was doing a 4-way camp with jumpers with less than 100 jumps, I would not ask them to track until 2,000 feet before pulling. If I was doing a 50-way invitational with very experienced jumpers, it would probably be a requirement to do that.

Context is important.

Look at the context of the delivery and of the recipient.


.

.
Make It Happen
Parachute History
DiveMaker

[billvon 2,429]

>About 175 PD feet. Take the Safire size *.93 = PD footage.

Note that that is only true on Safire 1's. Safire 2's go back to the PD method.

[Pubwoof 0]

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Gee had to look them up.

Main Entry: ris·i·ble
Pronunciation: 'ri-z&-b&l
Function: adjective
Etymology: Late Latin risibilis, from Latin risus, past participle of ridEre to laugh
Date: 1557
1 a : capable of laughing b : disposed to laugh
2 : arousing or provoking laughter; especially : LAUGHABLE
3 : associated with, relating to, or used in laughter

Main Entry: per·spi·ca·cious
Pronunciation: "p&r-sp&-'kA-sh&s
Function: adjective
Etymology: Latin perspicac-, perspicax, from perspicere
Date: 1640
: of acute mental vision or discernment : KEEN
synonym see SHREWD
- per·spi·ca·cious·ly adverb
- per·spi·ca·cious·ness noun
- per·spi·cac·i·ty /-'ka-s&-tE/ noun


Main Entry: her·i·ta·ble
Pronunciation: 'her-&-t&-b&l
Function: adjective
Date: 14th century
1 : capable of being inherited or of passing by inheritance

Main Entry: frac·tious
Pronunciation: 'frak-sh&s
Function: adjective
Etymology: fraction (discord) + -ous
Date: 1725
1 : tending to be troublesome : UNRULY
2 : QUARRELSOME, IRRITABLE
- frac·tious·ly adverb
- frac·tious·ness noun

Anyone who has taken an entry level course in logic should also be familiar with the Latin term ad hominem. This term is used by logicians to describe what is probably the most commonly used logical fallacy. The idea behind ad hominem is that it is an error in logic to weigh the merits of an argument by virtue of who is making the argument. An example of this would be something like, "Don't trust that Christopher Columbus guy! The only reason he says the earth is round is because he wants Spain to build three ships for him." Even if it was true that Columbus had an ulterior motive in stating that the earth was not flat, it has no impact whatsoever on the truth value of what he professed.

Ad hominem manifests itself in several ways, including blind credentialism. As it relates to the instant discussion, an example of this might go something like, "You want to know how I'm right? My 82,000 jumps and my half-bazillion certificates and qualifications proves I'm right!" Arguments, statements, and opinions either have merit, or they don't. It matters not at all by whom these ideas were given.

For anyone who doubts the above-expressed position, just look through some of the earlier posts in this thread as they are replete with examples of sage advice being given by total newbies as well as examples of "expert" advice that is pretty ridiculous on its face. Relying on advice just because it came from these forums, an instructor at the DZ, or a particular publication is a fool's gambit.

Just to be clear, I am not contending that a person's background should be given no creedence at all. In fact, consideration of one's background is a valuable heuristic to employ from an inductive point of view. It does follow that the best advice, more often than not, comes from those with the most experience, training, etc. It's just not always the case nor is it necessarily the case.

Assuming the truth of what I've stated so far, it is axiomatic that we should focus almost entirely on what is being said as opposed to who is saying it. Long story short, it is up to the receiver of a given message to discern between gospel and bullshit, not the sender. Newbies should be actively encouraged to try to help others, if for no other reason than to correct them whenever they're mistaken. Same goes for the skygods as well, if for no other reason than to remind them of some of the things they may have forgotten from their training. Only when ideas are expressed freely without fear of humiliation from others can debate produce truth.

Ultimately, the things we have all come to know or believe about our sport is a composite of the information we receive from everywhere. Because of this, skydivers need to be able to adduce information from myriad sources and weigh them accordingly. If you encounter someone at the DZ incapable of doing this, kindly suggest to them that they might live longer by taking up something like "Simon Says", painting by numbers, or even country line-step dancing (let me apologize in advance to anyone offended by my suggestion that line-step dancing doesn't require the capacity for intelligent thought).

Contrary to the old cliche, we should speak evil, hear evil, see evil, listen to it, taste it, smack it on the ass a few times (I think you get the picture).

The glass isn't always half-full OR half-empty. Sometimes, the glass is just too damn big.

[b1jercat 0]

Wow, thats sure a long way of saying General skydiving discussions. I agree with your point.
Nice post.

Perhaps what we need is a separate forum for General skygod advice for skydivers, canopy pilots, and landers.

blue skies

jerry

[CharlieAt 0]

Actually I must say that Tonto's suggestion :

> A change on this site? Status on the "formal" forums should be
> on a jump numbers/years in the sport/disipline experience formula,
> and should be clearly displayed for all to see.

would be a great addition. The veteran/ old hand etc. status type indication had me fooled when I first started reading DZ. Why is that newbie arguing with an old hand? So a nice 'JJJJJ/YYYY' on the same line as the other status would be neat.

Yes I know that you cannot police what people write in their profiles and no, jump numbers/years in sport are not an ideal way of checking what someone's qualifications are for giving advice on a particular topic, but it is the only practical way available on a forum like this. (It would certainly save me having to have a look at every second poster's profile when reading a forum :-) One can still look at the profile afterwards if one wants to know with how big a pinch of salt one should regard this person's information about on a particular topic dependent on their interests/qualifications/location.

charlie
newbie 1400J/6Y

Indemnification:
- I am not against telling people that their chest-strap is open
- I am not against newbies posting in any forums
- I am not against people having third nipples
- Speak to your jumpmaster/coach/instructor/CI/S&TA/thread moderator before believing a word I have written here

[fool 0]

absolutely. well said.

S.E.X. party #1

"Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting "f*#k, what a ride".

[firstime 0]

We get your point, but are you looking for a grammy
WHOA