champu 1 #76 December 26, 2003 QuoteThe veteran/ old hand etc. status type indication had me fooled when I first started reading DZ. Why is that newbie arguing with an old hand? So a nice 'JJJJJ/YYYY' on the same line as the other status would be neat.Yeah, apparently I'm an Old Hand with about a year and a half in the sport... I think the titles may be misleading. I also think a "post loading" would be kinda funny (total posts / number of jumps) Anyhow, back to the topic at hand, I spend an hour and a half in a car filled with students each way to and from the dropzone every weekend. Let me tell you, tongue biting has become a sport in itself. Occasionally I'll recount stories, but the most common thing you'll hear me say is, "Yeah... Don't do that, talk to [appropriate instructor name]" I'm with PhreeZone and AggieDave.... Listening is where it's at, speculation makes you splat. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
marcandalysse 0 #77 December 26, 2003 my 2 cents worth: when I first started in the sport, and first discovered dz.com, it was extremely hard to separate the safe advice from the BS. At the DZ, plenty of folks were offering 'advice', with both low and high jump numbers experience. (anyone with over a few hundred jumps seemed like a skygod to me!) I listen to it all, but my ultimate authority is my original aff instructor and currently my coach, plus some of the other coaches at the DZ. She knows my jump history, my continual problems in form and my continual progress. If she tells me to be careful about someone's advice, she has a good reason. Every few months we do a few coach dives for her to access my progress. Besides, its not that one person is correct, other incorrect. You will hear conflicting advice and both may be 'correct' for someone or another. Its a question of what style fits best. I learned one style of mantis turns from one coach, another variation from another. Then I made the choice of what was working best for me. There's always good stuff to learn and some truly fine instructors/coaches. And at ZHills I am truly fortunate to learn from some of the best anywhere. But truly, there are some scary posts coming from low jumpers, and most of us know who they are. I wouldn't want to be on a jump with them! Or maybe even on the same plane! Marc Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CrazyDave 0 #78 December 26, 2003 QuoteWhile I applaud your statement, it really does depend on the advice your talking about. I think a new AFF student can give some very sound advice to a newer student. On the other hand someone with 50 jumps giving advice on swooping might not be in the best interest of all involved. i totally agree.... im a noob, and i have to say that i do (at times) have some v good information to put accross. i pick stuff up, and when i feel its appropriate to put it accross i do so. however i would not put any information accross that i wasnt certain of its credability and accuracy especially if it could risk a life, becides i think theres a lot of stuff that us noobs can offer, i mean do u pro's want to be answering noob questions that ive seen asked on here soooo many times (i know coz ive asked them before myself). i can see it would get pretty annoying.... Lets hope that makes a bit of sense... i didnt proof read or anything CrazyDave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 15 #79 December 26, 2003 I'd rather be annoyed to death with questions then let someone thats only read about the answer and never been in the situation or put students through that situation before. There are a lot of parrots that these boards have created... they read it a few times so then they become a subject matter expert on it. They don't actually experiece it themselfs. Look at all the people telling how a canopy flies... but ask if they have flown it at the loading/conditions the person is asking about and they usually answer no... but it should fly this way. There are a few people on here that looking at them and their limited experince and general nieveity in the sport makes me want to reach through here and wring their necks since they are spouting off so much inaccurate information or advice. There are things that if your tandem master told you were happening on your first skydive it would have totally scared you to death, but because they are a professional they know when to hold information back and what to tell others.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
imdskydiver 0 #80 December 26, 2003 QuoteThere are a lot of parrots that these boards have created. People have to start some where , I am sure that with 9400 posts and 700 jumps that you might have been one of them at one time. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites PhreeZone 15 #81 December 26, 2003 This is way off topic but the majority of my posts are Talkback related. In fact I have more posts in Talkback then in the rest of the site put together. Plus I've been posting on here for 3 years. I think I've probally have 500 posts related to WFFC in one way or another alone from the last 2 summers. Alot of my early posts were questions but they have slowly progressed to answers as I've got more experience and been through and learned from hands on experience. In the Base most mine are questions since I have no hands on there. There is no doubt that when I had 1/4 the jumps I have now that I used to take a lot of bad advice and stuff from here since I just did'nt know better. Here are some break downs of my posts: 4955 Talkback 577 General Skydiving 597 Safety and Training 1385 Gear and Rigging. 157 Incidents 52 Events and Gatherings 47 Places to jump 21 History 371 Swoop 41 RW 125 Freefly 67 CRW 145 Wingsuit 448 Camera and Video 45 BaseYesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Sheenster303 0 #82 December 27, 2003 I have only jumped one time before and that was a tandem, yet I am an Old Hand here on dz.com. It can be a tad bit misleading. I know that I don't know jack about skydiving. I plan on learning more once I do more jumping, but it will be a long time before I ever feel comfortable enough to give advice to anyone. I may read these posts to help understand things better, but I certainly do not think that I know everything there is to know and I definitely do not have the experience yet. Until I gain some first-hand experience, I will not give advice to anyone because frankly, I do not have the authority to give it.I'm so funny I crack my head open! P.M.S. #102 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites CrazyDave 0 #83 December 27, 2003 QuoteI'd rather be annoyed to death with questions then let someone thats only read about the answer and never been in the situation or put students through that situation before. i understand what your getting at. which is why i generally only tell people information im certain about. i wouldnt go on about canopy flight or anything like that because as you said... i havent experianced that situation, i'd prefer to talk about things i know, and not risk people's lives because of a stupid incorrect post. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Ron 7 #84 December 29, 2003 QuotePeople have to start some where , I am sure that with 9400 posts and 700 jumps that you might have been one of them at one time. How about me? PhreeZone is right. To many people just spout what they have been told (or heard). They are noting but Parrot Instructors....And they can cause a hell of a lot more problems than they solve.... Reference post 59 of this thread for examples. I would rather have an Instructor answer every stupid question than a 100 jump wonder that took a canopy control course. Why have instructors and S&TA's if you don't use them? Why have ratings if anyone can teach anything? Why get advice from the damn internet? The problem is that to a person with 10 jumps 100 seems to be a lot. And you don't know enough at 10 jumps to detect bullshit. At 100 jumps you still can't detect all the bullshit. If you think you know it all at 1,000....Again BS."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 1,622 #85 December 29, 2003 Quote Why have instructors and S&TA's if you don't use them? Why have ratings if anyone can teach anything? Why get advice from the damn internet? Well, Ron, Just to give an example from one area... How many times have you read a question on exit separation that starts "My instructor told me to wait until the previous group makes an angle of 45 degrees..."... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kelel01 1 #86 December 29, 2003 QuoteHow many times have you read a question on exit separation that starts "My instructor told me to wait until the previous group makes an angle of 45 degrees..." SOOOOOO true. I even tried to tell one of my instructors that that method is dated and inaccurate, and he looked at me like I was crazy. And although I know that's NOT the right way to determine exit separation, I still don't know what IS. Kelly Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Ron 7 #87 December 29, 2003 QuoteWell, Ron, Just to give an example from one area... How many times have you read a question on exit separation that starts "My instructor told me to wait until the previous group makes an angle of 45 degrees..." Again this is knowledge based , not performanced based. I would rather the Instructor with 1,000 jumps teaching than the person with 100 Example.....right above me...Kelly with 33 jumps says QuoteSOOOOOO true. I even tried to tell one of my instructors that that method is dated and inaccurate, and he looked at me like I was crazy. And although I know that's NOT the right way to determine exit separation, I still don't know what IS. Here Kelly with 33 jumps is trying to explain to an instructor a method that she does not understand herself. Now while I agree the 45 degree method does not work....Kelly does not have the knowledge to explain why its wrong. So she probley should not be trying to teach it. Thoughts Doc?"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skydivexxl 0 #88 December 29, 2003 Quote And although I know that's NOT the right way to determine exit separation, I still don't know what IS. Strange quote... You can explain drift and show them the cool model on the internet, but at least looking out the door gets people to wait a few seconds! I can't count the amount of times I've had to physically stop a newer jumper from leaving RIGHT on top of a group. At the door they count "12345" REALLY FAST and dive out. I'd always prefer a long spot to a collision in freefall! It's not always about right and wrong! With nearly 1000 jumps, I finally figured out who I can ask questions to, and most of the answers are experience based. Blog Clicky Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kelel01 1 #89 December 29, 2003 Just to explain, I did not try to explain the method, b/c I don't have the first clue what it is. The dialogue went something like this: Me: "How do I know when I can exit the plane?". Instructor: "When the group before you gets to a 45 degree angle." Me: "But I heard there was a newer, more accurate way of determining it, that the 45-degree angle rule doesn't work very well. Do you know what it is?". Inst.: "No." Me: "Me neither. Oh, well." If my instructor tells me something that is in direct conflict with something I have learned on this website, can I not question it?????? Kelly Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skydivexxl 0 #90 December 29, 2003 I'm all for "post loading" #s... great idea... add some validity to what people are saying! 2.1:1 jumps to posts myself! Blog Clicky Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 1,622 #91 December 29, 2003 QuoteQuoteWell, Ron, Just to give an example from one area... How many times have you read a question on exit separation that starts "My instructor told me to wait until the previous group makes an angle of 45 degrees..." Again this is knowledge based , not performanced based. I would rather the Instructor with 1,000 jumps teaching than the person with 100 Example.....right above me...Kelly with 33 jumps says QuoteSOOOOOO true. I even tried to tell one of my instructors that that method is dated and inaccurate, and he looked at me like I was crazy. And although I know that's NOT the right way to determine exit separation, I still don't know what IS. Here Kelly with 33 jumps is trying to explain to an instructor a method that she does not understand herself. Now while I agree the 45 degree method does not work....Kelly does not have the knowledge to explain why its wrong. So she probley should not be trying to teach it. Thoughts Doc? I could explain it when I had 50 jumps. Sufficiently well that Tim Wagner put my explanation on Omniskore (it's still there). The point I'm making is that some things are taught poorly by some instructors, and the internet can be a good source of information. The problem is how to filter it, and jump numbers are not necessarily a good criterion. As I mentioned previously, there are many issues relating to skydiving and safety where a non skydiver who is an expert in the field may have very valuable insights or information - such as high altitude physiology, meteorology, and jump-plane operations, to name but three.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Ron 7 #92 December 29, 2003 QuoteIf my instructor tells me something that is in direct conflict with something I have learned on this website, can I not question it?????? Feel free to question everything....Double check everything...Hell tripple check anything I write. It didn't sound that way from your other post, but it was a perfect example (Maybe not with you and this case) of how folks with a little knowledge about a subject can try to teach it...Hell it happens here all the time. Kallends program is correct, the 45 degree thingy is not. But I know folks that will try to teach it, when they have no clue (Again maybe not in your case, but it does happen). It is one of the dangers of people without the knowledge giving advice. I have seen some folks give really crappy advice that does WAY more damage than good."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites AggieDave 6 #93 December 29, 2003 QuoteThe point I'm making is that some things are taught poorly by some instructors, and the internet can be a good source of information. The problem is how to filter it, and jump numbers are not necessarily a good criterion. Although I agree with you to a point, jump numbers and ratings are a good way to see that the jumper does have some experience and might actually know what they're talking about. Where as the majority of low jump numbers are just repeating what they've seen/heard. I know you've seen both sides, as we all have...I'm also saying that since just even a year ago I was trying to give advice in which I had no business doing. You learn a lot as your jump numbers continue to go up and you learn a whole lot when you start getting ratings and start jumping with students.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Ron 7 #94 December 29, 2003 QuoteAs I mentioned previously, there are many issues relating to skydiving and safety where a non skydiver who is an expert in the field may have very valuable insights or information - such as high altitude physiology, meteorology, and jump-plane operations, to name but three. Again knowledge based, not performanced based. I don't have issues with any of that...What I have issue with is a 100 wonder telling folks how to flat turn...In this case they don't have the skills or the knowledge. Would you teach canopy control to folks when you had 100 jumps? I mean we all know you can explain the pyhsics of flight to us (better than just about anyone here), but does that make you qualified to teach canopy control to students?"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 1,622 #95 December 29, 2003 QuoteQuoteAs I mentioned previously, there are many issues relating to skydiving and safety where a non skydiver who is an expert in the field may have very valuable insights or information - such as high altitude physiology, meteorology, and jump-plane operations, to name but three. Again knowledge based, not performanced based. I don't have issues with any of that...What I have issue with is a 100 wonder telling folks how to flat turn...In this case they don't have the skills or the knowledge. Would you teach canopy control to folks when you had 100 jumps? I mean we all know you can explain the pyhsics of flight to us (better than just about anyone here), but does that make you qualified to teach canopy control to students? Since I learned the heretical way at SkydiveChicago, loaded at 1.2 by the end of my AFP course and on a Stiletto at jump #38, I don't think anyone would want to listen to me anyway. OTOH I can explain the effects of brakes, risers and "getting small" on getting back from a long spot to anyone who will listen. You gonna be at ZHills this weekend? I may drive down.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pilotdave 0 #96 December 29, 2003 Bad advice can come from anywhere. I think it's far more imporant to teach people where to GET advice, not who should give it. This is the internet. Unless each post is going to get approved by a moderator before showing up to the public, you can't control who will be giving advice here or anywhere else on the internet. I think this thread will get more people thinking about where they get their advice than it will stop people from posting bad advice. And I don't think that's so bad. I still believe even parrots can offer some really good advice! Who taught Neil Armstrong how to walk on the moon? I bet whoever it was had never done it himself! Ok, bad example. My point is, you can't control a forum on the internet and you can't control people at DZ's across the world. But you CAN teach the people that are coming here for advice how to recognize good and bad advice, no matter who it comes from. Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kelel01 1 #97 December 29, 2003 *Round of applause for Dave* Precisely my point in my prior post. Thank you for putting in plain terms!!! Kelly Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Ncrowe 0 #98 December 30, 2003 QuoteThere has been a lot of chatter and newbies saying why they should be allowed to give advice etc.... But let me ask you this - if your advice was directly responsible for someone's death, how would you react, and how would it affect your life? Could you handle it? If you spend enough time in this sport, you will watch your friends die - don't rush that timeline. This sport loses a lot of its appeal after you bury a friend. Now - do you still want to give that advice? Do you think you are qualified enough? Umm I'm making my first dive on Jan 9 th and I'm very very excited about the upcomming jump, but after reading something like " you will watch your friends die" has me thinking otherwise. Doesn't sound like such a great sport to get into after reading a statement like that. "Don't Mess Around With the Guy in Shades- Oh No!!! " Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites PhreeZone 15 #99 December 30, 2003 >Doesn't sound like such a great sport to get into after reading a statement like that. Welcome to the cold reality of the sport. I've been really luckly in my 4 years jumping I've only ever known 2 people that died and only a few of my friends have ended up in the hospital due to injuries. I know some people that have lost 4 or 5 friends and seen lots of their friends in the hospital. Death is only a few seconds away on any skydive. As soon as you forget that... the sooner you will find out for yourself.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites newsstand 0 #100 December 30, 2003 Quote Umm I'm making my first dive on Jan 9 th and I'm very very excited about the upcomming jump, but after reading something like " you will watch your friends die" has me thinking otherwise. Doesn't sound like such a great sport to get into after reading a statement like that. I have 28 jumps, 24 in 2003, 4 25 years ago. I got all of these jumps before joining this site. At times I feel the same way you do right now but as a 45 year old father of three and grandfather of one with another on the way I am not in to doing stupid things. If you read this site carefully and especially the incidents forum you will see that human error is usually involved in death and dismemberment. Generally the error of the injured. Now the level of error varies from flat out stupid like, flew straight in to a powerline with no attempt to avoid, to bad luck like, made the wrong decision in a split second in a really strange situation and got hurt/killed. So is it possible you will see someone seriously injured or killed? Yes, but that happens in softball too. If the thought of this will cause you to 1) not enjoy the sport or 2) dwell on it until you screw up, then you shouldn't do it. If the reality of the danger of the sport sinks in and makes you triple check everything and work real hard to be the best skydiver you can be then welcome. "Truth is tough. It will not break, like a bubble, at a touch; nay, you may kick it about all day like a football, and it will be round and full at evening." -- Oliver Wendell Holmes Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 5 Next Page 4 of 5 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
PhreeZone 15 #81 December 26, 2003 This is way off topic but the majority of my posts are Talkback related. In fact I have more posts in Talkback then in the rest of the site put together. Plus I've been posting on here for 3 years. I think I've probally have 500 posts related to WFFC in one way or another alone from the last 2 summers. Alot of my early posts were questions but they have slowly progressed to answers as I've got more experience and been through and learned from hands on experience. In the Base most mine are questions since I have no hands on there. There is no doubt that when I had 1/4 the jumps I have now that I used to take a lot of bad advice and stuff from here since I just did'nt know better. Here are some break downs of my posts: 4955 Talkback 577 General Skydiving 597 Safety and Training 1385 Gear and Rigging. 157 Incidents 52 Events and Gatherings 47 Places to jump 21 History 371 Swoop 41 RW 125 Freefly 67 CRW 145 Wingsuit 448 Camera and Video 45 BaseYesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sheenster303 0 #82 December 27, 2003 I have only jumped one time before and that was a tandem, yet I am an Old Hand here on dz.com. It can be a tad bit misleading. I know that I don't know jack about skydiving. I plan on learning more once I do more jumping, but it will be a long time before I ever feel comfortable enough to give advice to anyone. I may read these posts to help understand things better, but I certainly do not think that I know everything there is to know and I definitely do not have the experience yet. Until I gain some first-hand experience, I will not give advice to anyone because frankly, I do not have the authority to give it.I'm so funny I crack my head open! P.M.S. #102 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CrazyDave 0 #83 December 27, 2003 QuoteI'd rather be annoyed to death with questions then let someone thats only read about the answer and never been in the situation or put students through that situation before. i understand what your getting at. which is why i generally only tell people information im certain about. i wouldnt go on about canopy flight or anything like that because as you said... i havent experianced that situation, i'd prefer to talk about things i know, and not risk people's lives because of a stupid incorrect post. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #84 December 29, 2003 QuotePeople have to start some where , I am sure that with 9400 posts and 700 jumps that you might have been one of them at one time. How about me? PhreeZone is right. To many people just spout what they have been told (or heard). They are noting but Parrot Instructors....And they can cause a hell of a lot more problems than they solve.... Reference post 59 of this thread for examples. I would rather have an Instructor answer every stupid question than a 100 jump wonder that took a canopy control course. Why have instructors and S&TA's if you don't use them? Why have ratings if anyone can teach anything? Why get advice from the damn internet? The problem is that to a person with 10 jumps 100 seems to be a lot. And you don't know enough at 10 jumps to detect bullshit. At 100 jumps you still can't detect all the bullshit. If you think you know it all at 1,000....Again BS."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,622 #85 December 29, 2003 Quote Why have instructors and S&TA's if you don't use them? Why have ratings if anyone can teach anything? Why get advice from the damn internet? Well, Ron, Just to give an example from one area... How many times have you read a question on exit separation that starts "My instructor told me to wait until the previous group makes an angle of 45 degrees..."... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelel01 1 #86 December 29, 2003 QuoteHow many times have you read a question on exit separation that starts "My instructor told me to wait until the previous group makes an angle of 45 degrees..." SOOOOOO true. I even tried to tell one of my instructors that that method is dated and inaccurate, and he looked at me like I was crazy. And although I know that's NOT the right way to determine exit separation, I still don't know what IS. Kelly Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #87 December 29, 2003 QuoteWell, Ron, Just to give an example from one area... How many times have you read a question on exit separation that starts "My instructor told me to wait until the previous group makes an angle of 45 degrees..." Again this is knowledge based , not performanced based. I would rather the Instructor with 1,000 jumps teaching than the person with 100 Example.....right above me...Kelly with 33 jumps says QuoteSOOOOOO true. I even tried to tell one of my instructors that that method is dated and inaccurate, and he looked at me like I was crazy. And although I know that's NOT the right way to determine exit separation, I still don't know what IS. Here Kelly with 33 jumps is trying to explain to an instructor a method that she does not understand herself. Now while I agree the 45 degree method does not work....Kelly does not have the knowledge to explain why its wrong. So she probley should not be trying to teach it. Thoughts Doc?"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydivexxl 0 #88 December 29, 2003 Quote And although I know that's NOT the right way to determine exit separation, I still don't know what IS. Strange quote... You can explain drift and show them the cool model on the internet, but at least looking out the door gets people to wait a few seconds! I can't count the amount of times I've had to physically stop a newer jumper from leaving RIGHT on top of a group. At the door they count "12345" REALLY FAST and dive out. I'd always prefer a long spot to a collision in freefall! It's not always about right and wrong! With nearly 1000 jumps, I finally figured out who I can ask questions to, and most of the answers are experience based. Blog Clicky Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelel01 1 #89 December 29, 2003 Just to explain, I did not try to explain the method, b/c I don't have the first clue what it is. The dialogue went something like this: Me: "How do I know when I can exit the plane?". Instructor: "When the group before you gets to a 45 degree angle." Me: "But I heard there was a newer, more accurate way of determining it, that the 45-degree angle rule doesn't work very well. Do you know what it is?". Inst.: "No." Me: "Me neither. Oh, well." If my instructor tells me something that is in direct conflict with something I have learned on this website, can I not question it?????? Kelly Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydivexxl 0 #90 December 29, 2003 I'm all for "post loading" #s... great idea... add some validity to what people are saying! 2.1:1 jumps to posts myself! Blog Clicky Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,622 #91 December 29, 2003 QuoteQuoteWell, Ron, Just to give an example from one area... How many times have you read a question on exit separation that starts "My instructor told me to wait until the previous group makes an angle of 45 degrees..." Again this is knowledge based , not performanced based. I would rather the Instructor with 1,000 jumps teaching than the person with 100 Example.....right above me...Kelly with 33 jumps says QuoteSOOOOOO true. I even tried to tell one of my instructors that that method is dated and inaccurate, and he looked at me like I was crazy. And although I know that's NOT the right way to determine exit separation, I still don't know what IS. Here Kelly with 33 jumps is trying to explain to an instructor a method that she does not understand herself. Now while I agree the 45 degree method does not work....Kelly does not have the knowledge to explain why its wrong. So she probley should not be trying to teach it. Thoughts Doc? I could explain it when I had 50 jumps. Sufficiently well that Tim Wagner put my explanation on Omniskore (it's still there). The point I'm making is that some things are taught poorly by some instructors, and the internet can be a good source of information. The problem is how to filter it, and jump numbers are not necessarily a good criterion. As I mentioned previously, there are many issues relating to skydiving and safety where a non skydiver who is an expert in the field may have very valuable insights or information - such as high altitude physiology, meteorology, and jump-plane operations, to name but three.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #92 December 29, 2003 QuoteIf my instructor tells me something that is in direct conflict with something I have learned on this website, can I not question it?????? Feel free to question everything....Double check everything...Hell tripple check anything I write. It didn't sound that way from your other post, but it was a perfect example (Maybe not with you and this case) of how folks with a little knowledge about a subject can try to teach it...Hell it happens here all the time. Kallends program is correct, the 45 degree thingy is not. But I know folks that will try to teach it, when they have no clue (Again maybe not in your case, but it does happen). It is one of the dangers of people without the knowledge giving advice. I have seen some folks give really crappy advice that does WAY more damage than good."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #93 December 29, 2003 QuoteThe point I'm making is that some things are taught poorly by some instructors, and the internet can be a good source of information. The problem is how to filter it, and jump numbers are not necessarily a good criterion. Although I agree with you to a point, jump numbers and ratings are a good way to see that the jumper does have some experience and might actually know what they're talking about. Where as the majority of low jump numbers are just repeating what they've seen/heard. I know you've seen both sides, as we all have...I'm also saying that since just even a year ago I was trying to give advice in which I had no business doing. You learn a lot as your jump numbers continue to go up and you learn a whole lot when you start getting ratings and start jumping with students.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #94 December 29, 2003 QuoteAs I mentioned previously, there are many issues relating to skydiving and safety where a non skydiver who is an expert in the field may have very valuable insights or information - such as high altitude physiology, meteorology, and jump-plane operations, to name but three. Again knowledge based, not performanced based. I don't have issues with any of that...What I have issue with is a 100 wonder telling folks how to flat turn...In this case they don't have the skills or the knowledge. Would you teach canopy control to folks when you had 100 jumps? I mean we all know you can explain the pyhsics of flight to us (better than just about anyone here), but does that make you qualified to teach canopy control to students?"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,622 #95 December 29, 2003 QuoteQuoteAs I mentioned previously, there are many issues relating to skydiving and safety where a non skydiver who is an expert in the field may have very valuable insights or information - such as high altitude physiology, meteorology, and jump-plane operations, to name but three. Again knowledge based, not performanced based. I don't have issues with any of that...What I have issue with is a 100 wonder telling folks how to flat turn...In this case they don't have the skills or the knowledge. Would you teach canopy control to folks when you had 100 jumps? I mean we all know you can explain the pyhsics of flight to us (better than just about anyone here), but does that make you qualified to teach canopy control to students? Since I learned the heretical way at SkydiveChicago, loaded at 1.2 by the end of my AFP course and on a Stiletto at jump #38, I don't think anyone would want to listen to me anyway. OTOH I can explain the effects of brakes, risers and "getting small" on getting back from a long spot to anyone who will listen. You gonna be at ZHills this weekend? I may drive down.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pilotdave 0 #96 December 29, 2003 Bad advice can come from anywhere. I think it's far more imporant to teach people where to GET advice, not who should give it. This is the internet. Unless each post is going to get approved by a moderator before showing up to the public, you can't control who will be giving advice here or anywhere else on the internet. I think this thread will get more people thinking about where they get their advice than it will stop people from posting bad advice. And I don't think that's so bad. I still believe even parrots can offer some really good advice! Who taught Neil Armstrong how to walk on the moon? I bet whoever it was had never done it himself! Ok, bad example. My point is, you can't control a forum on the internet and you can't control people at DZ's across the world. But you CAN teach the people that are coming here for advice how to recognize good and bad advice, no matter who it comes from. Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelel01 1 #97 December 29, 2003 *Round of applause for Dave* Precisely my point in my prior post. Thank you for putting in plain terms!!! Kelly Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ncrowe 0 #98 December 30, 2003 QuoteThere has been a lot of chatter and newbies saying why they should be allowed to give advice etc.... But let me ask you this - if your advice was directly responsible for someone's death, how would you react, and how would it affect your life? Could you handle it? If you spend enough time in this sport, you will watch your friends die - don't rush that timeline. This sport loses a lot of its appeal after you bury a friend. Now - do you still want to give that advice? Do you think you are qualified enough? Umm I'm making my first dive on Jan 9 th and I'm very very excited about the upcomming jump, but after reading something like " you will watch your friends die" has me thinking otherwise. Doesn't sound like such a great sport to get into after reading a statement like that. "Don't Mess Around With the Guy in Shades- Oh No!!! " Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 15 #99 December 30, 2003 >Doesn't sound like such a great sport to get into after reading a statement like that. Welcome to the cold reality of the sport. I've been really luckly in my 4 years jumping I've only ever known 2 people that died and only a few of my friends have ended up in the hospital due to injuries. I know some people that have lost 4 or 5 friends and seen lots of their friends in the hospital. Death is only a few seconds away on any skydive. As soon as you forget that... the sooner you will find out for yourself.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
newsstand 0 #100 December 30, 2003 Quote Umm I'm making my first dive on Jan 9 th and I'm very very excited about the upcomming jump, but after reading something like " you will watch your friends die" has me thinking otherwise. Doesn't sound like such a great sport to get into after reading a statement like that. I have 28 jumps, 24 in 2003, 4 25 years ago. I got all of these jumps before joining this site. At times I feel the same way you do right now but as a 45 year old father of three and grandfather of one with another on the way I am not in to doing stupid things. If you read this site carefully and especially the incidents forum you will see that human error is usually involved in death and dismemberment. Generally the error of the injured. Now the level of error varies from flat out stupid like, flew straight in to a powerline with no attempt to avoid, to bad luck like, made the wrong decision in a split second in a really strange situation and got hurt/killed. So is it possible you will see someone seriously injured or killed? Yes, but that happens in softball too. If the thought of this will cause you to 1) not enjoy the sport or 2) dwell on it until you screw up, then you shouldn't do it. If the reality of the danger of the sport sinks in and makes you triple check everything and work real hard to be the best skydiver you can be then welcome. "Truth is tough. It will not break, like a bubble, at a touch; nay, you may kick it about all day like a football, and it will be round and full at evening." -- Oliver Wendell Holmes Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
