ChasingBlueSky 0 #1 December 23, 2003 There has been a lot of chatter and newbies saying why they should be allowed to give advice etc.... But let me ask you this - if your advice was directly responsible for someone's death, how would you react, and how would it affect your life? Could you handle it? If you spend enough time in this sport, you will watch your friends die - don't rush that timeline. This sport loses a lot of its appeal after you bury a friend. Now - do you still want to give that advice? Do you think you are qualified enough?_________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GroundZero 0 #2 December 23, 2003 Quite often we get great information or a new perspective from someone who may be... how do you say?.... new to the sport.... always offer new ideas. Chris ...but don't be afraid to challenge the posts... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cloud9 0 #3 December 23, 2003 While I applaud your statement, it really does depend on the advice your talking about. I think a new AFF student can give some very sound advice to a newer student. On the other hand someone with 50 jumps giving advice on swooping might not be in the best interest of all involved. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChasingBlueSky 0 #4 December 23, 2003 QuoteQuite often we get great information or a new perspective from someone who may be... how do you say?.... new to the sport.... always offer new ideas. Chris ...but don't be afraid to challenge the posts... New Ideas are not the same thing as possible fatal advice. I encourage new thinking....however, there are some people in this sport talking about things they should not be at very low jump numbers (FYI, at 5 years in the sport and 500 jumps I am still hesitant to give out advice and feel I am still a newbie)_________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GroundZero 0 #5 December 23, 2003 but that same 50 jump wonder might tell me about a better way to fly my canopy... my ears are open... and i know how to filter "noise". the best ideas usually come from the people who are the most excited. I was most excited after jump number one... Chris Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shark 0 #6 December 23, 2003 QuoteNow - do you still want to give that advice? Do you think you are qualified enough? We should be encouraging newbies to talk about their expereinces, rather than have them give advice. Call it what you want. Is it wrong that one guy/girl asks what other students have experienced during a similar AFF level? It shouldn't be. Many of my students post here on dz.com and I really don't get in the way. I do and will, however, send a PM to my students with answers to their questions. If it really bugs me with the advice I see posted, I will PM the advice giver. Afterall, I am jumping with the student and high level of responsibility is warranted. Shark AFF-I Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChasingBlueSky 0 #7 December 23, 2003 Quotebut that same 50 jump wonder might tell me about a better way to fly my canopy... my ears are open... and i know how to filter "noise". the best ideas usually come from the people who are the most excited. I was most excited after jump number one... Chris And you learned what advice to filter out over time and experience and growing at a natural pace in this sport. It seems far too many feel they need to catch up to everyone else in jump numbers....and give some terrible advice._________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChasingBlueSky 0 #8 December 23, 2003 QuoteQuoteNow - do you still want to give that advice? Do you think you are qualified enough? We should be encouraging newbies to talk about their expereinces, rather than have them give advice. Call it what you want. Is it wrong that one guy/girl asks what other students have experienced during a similar AFF Shark AFF-I Shark, I'm hoping you know that is the sort of thing I would encourage - but there are some that go well beyond that sort of talk, and I'm starting to see it become more prevelant and accepted. Very worrisome._________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GroundZero 0 #9 December 23, 2003 yes... but i still want to hear anything that 'baby" jumper thinks... as far as advice, everyone should qualify/quantify everything heard. to tell younger jumpers not to advise, eliminates anything they have learned. And they are learning at a much faster pace than you and me. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Michele 1 #10 December 23, 2003 Quick question for clarification... Say I see someone doing something very dangerous. Should I, a newbie, not say anything, and just let them do it? What if someone asks me something? Should I tell them "I don't think I'm experienced enough to answer you, go find someone else", or ??? This is not to provoke you, nor take one side or another. I am just trying to see where the parameters are in your question. Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChasingBlueSky 0 #11 December 23, 2003 Quoteyes... but i still want to hear anything that 'baby" jumper thinks... as far as advice, everyone should qualify/quantify everything heard. to tell younger jumpers not to advise, eliminates anything they have learned. And they are learning at a much faster pace than you and me. Chris, I really am on the same page as you - hell, that's part of what Team Funnel encourages...the group was created to work with newbies (for free) to help them through the beginning stages after AFP. But, there is a decent amount of newbies on this board alone that are crossing that line. Possibly without even knowing it - thinking they are actually helping when they don't even know how that person flies, or what their JM told them. Then there are the people on this message board that feel because they have read a lot of posts on advice and have high posting numbers, they are qualified to give advice on hooking, wingloading, freeflying, birdman, etc...._________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
happythoughts 0 #12 December 23, 2003 Quotebut i still want to hear anything that 'baby" jumper thinks... I agree. You have to respect people. In IT, I am always in a room with 25 prima donnas. Treat them with respect and there is communication. Order them around... everything fades. People have to believe in their own abilities to step out that door. Listen. Then, discuss any things that you feel that they should consider. Small "What about this..." comments. Give good solid reasons. The "mommy answer" is the one that your mother told you - "...because I said so." Praise in public, criticize in private. A bunch of people will give a person the "ganging up on me" feeling. Listen, discuss, educate, encourage. Skydiving is supposed to be fun. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChasingBlueSky 0 #13 December 23, 2003 Maybe walk that person over to an AFF-I, TM, JM, etc and have a conversation about it - and make it a learning experience for you as well._________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Michele 1 #14 December 23, 2003 QuoteMaybe walk that person over to an AFF-I, TM, JM, etc and have a conversation about it - and make it a learning experience for you as well. And if there is no AFF-1, TM, JM available? Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChasingBlueSky 0 #15 December 23, 2003 QuoteQuoteMaybe walk that person over to an AFF-I, TM, JM, etc and have a conversation about it - and make it a learning experience for you as well. And if there is no AFF-1, TM, JM available? Ciels- Michele Then err on the side of safety/conservative/caution until you can get that answer. What's the rush? Or just lead by example: Winds were 20mph - with my canopy skills, I can handle that, and have on many occasions. I saw someone gearing up to get on the load that had low jumps numbers and marginal canopy skills. I went to talk to him and he said he didn't see a problem with the winds. I said "let's check them out again" and walked outside. I voiced that they looked a bit outside his range, and maybe even mine, and I took myself off the load. He followed my lead. Pretty simple stuff, and I didn't mind missing out on one jump for the lesson that was learned._________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shark 0 #16 December 23, 2003 QuoteAnd if there is no AFF-1, TM, JM available? Speak with the S&TA. If they won't listen to me, they'd better listen to the S&TA. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Michele 1 #17 December 23, 2003 QuoteThen err on the side of safety/conservative/caution until you can get that answer. What I find interesting is that you've assumed I don't already have the answer... therefore, you have assumed that newbies don't have answers. By this assumption, you negate all the experience I've had, listened to, learned, and absorbed. By negating that, you create an issue in confidence in the newer jumper. In creating an issue of confidence with the newer jumper, you teach them to not trust themselves. That can kill. If I saw someone with a chest strap undone, I would not wait for someone to say anything...I'd say something. (Done that.) If the winds are too high, I will back myself off the load. (Done that during a boogie for newbies, and 1/2 my group followed my lead.) If the jump is too dangerous - too many new things going on, I'll back off it (done that.) If someone is creating an issue with the landing pattern, flying badly/dangerously, I will speak with them about it (done that.) If someone asks me about flat turns, I will teach them what I know (done that). If someone is talking about going to a canopy which is, imho, too small, I will talk to them, and encourage them to go to a canopy class (done that. Most listened; the one who didn't broke his tailbone). If someone asks me about swooping, I grab their hand and lead them over to the school, and get them talking with someone. (done that...) Et cetera. There is a lot of information I can give...and a lot that I can't. I know when I am out of my league. I know when I don't know. And I do take that opportunity to learn when it presents itself, and will create it when it isn't presenting itself quite rapidly enough. For example, on my last jump, I noticed that there was a lower man during canopy flight. I saw him go into breaks while I set up. Both of us landed uneventfully, but I couldn't find him afterwards. I did eventually track him down (going through manifest, getting his name, getting his "group" pointed out to me, and going over there). I asked him what I had done that had caused him to hit the breaks...well, long conversation short, it wasn't anything I did, he just wanted to give me lots of room because he was the higher number jumper and I was the low one. And then he commented how pleased he was that I saw him in breaks, and came to find him later to learn... My point is that while I know I am not the one you are referring to, I am a newer jumper. I am not stupid. I don't like having my experience - short as it may be - negated by assumptive thinking, and I don't understand why anyone wouldn't listen to someone - no matter how many jumps - if the advice is sound. Further, I contend that high number jumpers have a problem, as well, in focussing on the tree while looking at the forest, and giving advice which may not be applicable to the newer jumper. I suppose my point is simply this: If I can't trust a person on the ground, I surely cannot trust them in the sky. If I hear a piece of advice which does not make sense, or does not work for me, I have a group of people I will run it by (some here, some at my DZ, and my rigger. My rigger has the last word, seeing as he was also my instructor). The balance which must be struck is both between the listener and the giver of any advice. 1. Does this make sense? 2. Will this hurt me? 3. Is this running before I can walk? 4. Will this risk others in the air with me? And similarly: 1. If I answer this question, will it contribute to the person asking it? 2. Will it put them in danger? 3. Will it risk them life and limb? 4. Is there someone else better qualified to answer this around right now? 5. Will this person die if I don't point out something (i.e. a chest strap, scary flight pattern, et cetera).... Do not negate advice/observations if they come from a low number jumper, simply because they have low numbers. Likewise, do not accept without question advice from someone with high numbers simply because they have high numbers. Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChasingBlueSky 0 #18 December 23, 2003 To get back to my original statement, I said "advice." I didn't say to let someone jump with an open chest strap, etc. I didn't say keep your mouth shut, I didn't say I wouldn't listen. I'm not playing a semantics game here, nor am I trying to be argumentative. I'm talking advice. "Yea, it's ok to do this since I did it" sorta thing. A newbie will often jump on the first bit of adivce that is in union with their thinking. As far as the listening goes - listening is the best way to see if a newbie really knows what they are talking about. Keep asking questions, dive deeper into their thinking and force them to talk about it out loud. Also - it's good to hear you have done those things - not many go that far._________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fool 0 #19 December 23, 2003 I think the real issue with this, is people giving advise they either 1) haven't sufficiently experienced, 2) haven't asked the same question of more experienced people, or 3) don't add the disclaimer "make sure you talk to so and so, but, this is what I know." I think the proper person who has talked to enough people, and had enough opinions given to them (if they were from the right people to get said opinions from) with the memory and interest to remember the advise given, can help in the learning process. i'm not saying that new jumpers should follow this individuals advise explicitly, and without prejudice, but I also don't think you should write off a persons knowledge based strictly on jump numbers. That being said, I'm going to put on my flame retardant suit, as I do have less than 1000 jumps, so my opinions probably don't matter to some. S.E.X. party #1 "Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting "f*#k, what a ride". Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tonto 1 #20 December 23, 2003 QuoteQuick question for clarification... Say I see someone doing something very dangerous. Should I, a newbie, not say anything, and just let them do it? You should say nothing if that person is much more experienced than you, and tell the CI/S&TA if they're less experienced than you. Deal with your peers as you see fit without exacerbating their situation. I'm tired of people with under 1000 dives telling me I'm dangerous for doing something I've been doing for decades and thousands and thousands of jumps, like the "hook turns are dangerous! You should know better." speech from someone with 55 jumps, or the "CRW is for madmen. You could get wrapped - entangled! Die!" from someone with 1000's of dives who has never done CReW, but faithfully carries their little orange plastic Zak knife to cut their thumb open when they have a lineover. I'm more tired of people who cannot see the big picture undermine the foundations I've tried to lay with regard to safety. QuoteWhat if someone asks me something? Should I tell them "I don't think I'm experienced enough to answer you, go find someone else" Yes. That's what I tell people who ask me about things I only have a few 100 dives at and know nothing or very little about, like camera, or freeflying, or birdman. What I find risable about this site, is that it's acceptable for a newbie to argue with someone who is alive after MANY, MANY dives, is an instructor, rigger, etc. This sport is all about staying alive. People should listen to those who have done that for a while, and maybe come through the years when gear was not so safe, boyfriends killed tandem pairs to impress their girlfriends etc. Teenagers know everything. The dude off a 1st Aid course will argue with a Trauma doctor, and the "300 jump wonder" will argue with the old hand who has buried many friends. Think I'd argue with Bill Booth on an equipment issue? Would you? My students, by and large, are perspicacious. I tell them to look at people's profiles before listening to advice, and I PM them and chat to them on weekends to ensure they've got the right picture. There are those who are ineducable, become DGIT's and break or die. Knowledge is always hereditable. I've learned most of what I know about newer stuff from former students of mine. It's very reciprical. Master/student roles are reversable and jump numbers don't mean everything, but are an indication of commitment, currency and ability to survive the myriad of senarios skydiving with murphy will present over a decade or two. A change on this site? Status on the "formal" forums should be on a jump numbers/years in the sport/disipline experience formula, and should be clearly displayed for all to see. On Talkback, your 5000 posts can count when you soporifically discuss your ovaries, testicals, 3rd nipples, who you'd like, or not, to fuck, how to catch OBL, what to do with SH and whether or not to nuke Mecca for Christmas while minimising fractious responses from others. Bottom line is the ground doesn't give a fuck about you. It's always there, and will be there when you screw up, whether you're a word champ or a newbie, whether it's your 1st jump or your last, or both. I see threads on the womans forum recomending the best plastic surgeons for a boob job, and how much for a head job in talk back, and I wonder if those people really bother researching who is giving them info that could save them - or kill them. tIt's the year of the Pig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fool 0 #21 December 23, 2003 QuoteWhat I find risable about this site, is that it's acceptable for a newbie to argue with someone who is alive after MANY, MANY dives, is an instructor, rigger, etc. what I've found on this site, is that many people confuse argueing with clarifying. I'm not saying that's what you are talking about, but there's no point in taking advise you don't understand, and a lot of times, someone with 1000's of jumps won't explain it in a way that someone with 4 will understand. I personally give kudos to those who are "arguing" to clarify a point. Better than saying "oh. ok," and not understanding what they were talking about. If the person in the wrong doesn't understand the subject matter, then it's a wast of time and energy for the teacher. S.E.X. party #1 "Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting "f*#k, what a ride". Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tonto 1 #22 December 23, 2003 I'm talking arguing - not clarification. Michelle is grinding the axe on someone else's behalf here. Quoteand a lot of times, someone with 1000's of jumps won't explain it in a way that someone with 4 will understand. Really? How did they get to be an instructor? It's clear 1 second out the door if my student has grasped the concept or not, whether they nod in all the right places or not. When someone with 100 jumps, who has been banned from a DZ as a result of poor canopy desisions is giving advice and arguing with a coach with 1400 jumps, that's not clarification. tIt's the year of the Pig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fool 0 #23 December 23, 2003 Like I said, I wasn't talking about you, just in general. What I didn't say, was that I wasn't talking "real world" either... I've noticed sometimes that posts on here sometimes go beyond the understanding of a new jumper, so they ask questions, and depending on their personality, sometimes that somes across as arguing. A lot gets lost over the net, mostly tone of voice, and facial expressions. I wasn't making a point about a specific case, just in general. S.E.X. party #1 "Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting "f*#k, what a ride". Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Newbie 0 #24 December 23, 2003 QuoteQuoteQuick question for clarification... Say I see someone doing something very dangerous. Should I, a newbie, not say anything, and just let them do it? You should say nothing if that person is much more experienced than you, and tell the CI/S&TA if they're less experienced than you. Deal with your peers as you see fit without exacerbating their situation. Tonto i agree with what you are saying, but re: the "do nothing if they are more experienced than you" comment, is this really what you want us new guys to do? Now im not talking about what you mentioned specifically, like newbies slamming you for doing hooks/CReW etc, thats different - im talking about if a new guy spots someone more experienced who might have forgotten something like a chest strap or something. We all know there have been incidents with highly experienced jumpers forgetting the basics. Would you really not want us to say something in this case? I told one of the instructors/coaches at my dz on my load who had about 7900 more jumps than i did that his chest strap was dangling in the plane, and he just nodded and smiled at me with that "yes i know" sort of look. But i would rather say something and get laughed at for thinking he had forgotten something so basic, than have an injury or worse happen because i didn't say anything because "the guy was so experienced i figured i should just keep my mouth shut" sort of thing. "Skydiving is a door" Happythoughts Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DBCOOPER 1 #25 December 23, 2003 Gee had to look them up. Main Entry: ris·i·ble Pronunciation: 'ri-z&-b&l Function: adjective Etymology: Late Latin risibilis, from Latin risus, past participle of ridEre to laugh Date: 1557 1 a : capable of laughing b : disposed to laugh 2 : arousing or provoking laughter; especially : LAUGHABLE 3 : associated with, relating to, or used in laughter Main Entry: per·spi·ca·cious Pronunciation: "p&r-sp&-'kA-sh&s Function: adjective Etymology: Latin perspicac-, perspicax, from perspicere Date: 1640 : of acute mental vision or discernment : KEEN synonym see SHREWD - per·spi·ca·cious·ly adverb - per·spi·ca·cious·ness noun - per·spi·cac·i·ty /-'ka-s&-tE/ noun Main Entry: her·i·ta·ble Pronunciation: 'her-&-t&-b&l Function: adjective Date: 14th century 1 : capable of being inherited or of passing by inheritance Main Entry: frac·tious Pronunciation: 'frak-sh&s Function: adjective Etymology: fraction (discord) + -ous Date: 1725 1 : tending to be troublesome : UNRULY 2 : QUARRELSOME, IRRITABLE - frac·tious·ly adverb - frac·tious·ness noun Quotebut faithfully carries their little orange plastic Zak knife to cut their thumb open when they have a lineover. Replying to: Re: Stall On Jump Run Emergency Procedure? by billvon If the plane is unrecoverable then exiting is a very very good idea. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
