Is death game legal?

[Rdy2skydive 0]

This is not really a game. This is an intervention. This is a group of people who may actually care enough to risk your friendship or risk embarassing you a little bit to make you wake up and realize that you are doing something dangerous. It's unfortunate they've had to go to such extremes to get your attention. For what it's worth, the people that I've met who have actually "won" at this game were not happy about being right and refused the money. I see this as a wake-up call for you.

For what it's worth, I'm sure your family and friends would rather see your name written on some list rather than carved on a tombstone. Just my $.02.

[skinnyshrek 0]

Can i get on the list...lol Seriously, we have all been a fuckwad at any given stage. The thing now is to change what you are doing. If you learn nothing from this and move to another DZ chances are you will soon be on their list. My best advice buy 2 cases of good beer coz the ranch are beer snobs! Approach this issue with the people involved. I am sure they have told you why you are on this list many times before. Listen listen listen! After this you will become a better skydiver. Option 2 ignore these peeps change dropzones and still be a wanker

http://www.skydivethefarm.com

do you realize that when you critisize people you dont know over the internet, you become part of a growing society of twats? ARE YOU ONE OF THEM?

[johnny1488 1]

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Ya know, the guy that doesn't listen and does a 180 in the pattern taking out another jumper? Or the guy who tracks up the line of flight?

It's funny you should mention that, thats exactly how 2 of the jumpers got on the list. One of them has wised up, one hasn't.

Johnny
--"This ain't no book club, we're all gonna die!"
Mike Rome

[slug 1]

Genneral comment:

After reading this whole thread, IMO Veter started off this thread because he was tired of listening to the folks at his DZ tellimg him to straighten up.

When people in this thread tried to give him some advice Veter copped a attitude.

Veter He thinks/knows he is always right and everyone else is wrong "He didn't forget to unstow his slider someone restowed it"

With a attitude like that it's easy to see why he's on the list.

Veters profile also includes some clues by the lack of info, ie # jumps and w/l. Might even be doing a lot of solo's?

To bad. Do you have to jump at the ranch to bet on the pool?

R.I.P.

[tombuch 0]

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IMO Veter has a "personality disorder" persecution complex whatever, He thinks/knows he is always right and everyone else is wrong "He didn't forget to unstow his slider someone restowed it"

Let's be careful about the personality attacks. Sometimes even good people get stuck with an ego issue.

When I was a young pup I had the BIGGEST attitude in the sport. I busted every rule and honestly thought I was bulletproof. Umm, I was wrong. It took a while (and one grounding) to figure that out, but hey, even dumbass skydivers can live and learn.
.

Tom Buchanan
Instructor Emeritus
Comm Pilot MSEL,G
Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

[white_falcon 0]

Derek,

My apologies for mis-spelling your name. No disrespect intended.

Aggiedave,

I am aware of Derek's credentials, (at least via what I have learned on here) and YOURS too for that matter. I read the opinions and observations of both of you and pay close attention.

Bilvon,

Again, I UNDERSTAND why the "pool" is in place. I just don't AGREE with it. There MUST be a better way of dealing with it. Right now, I have no better option than what I have already offered.

Shrek,

SHUT-UP. oh, and come cut the dam grass. :-)

To all the jumpers at The Ranch,
My aplogies as regards my initial post in this thread. It was knee jerk and, I would not NOT jump at your DZ just because of this (IMHO) absurd pool that you have. I am sure you have nothing but the best of intentions but the actual implementation of such a concept is turly disturbing to me.

Scott

[DRLOVE 0]

Yuri,

are you a man or woman? Do you still go to your hairstylist??? yuri, yuri, yuri speak german to me naked in the motel bathroom... stop being such a sissy man. I will come back to the ranch and jump, jump, Bingo Jump...

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[Hooknswoop 19]

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At what point does it stop?

Either the person wises up or becomes such a safety issue they are sent packing.

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Sure, start a pool and go for the shock value - thats one way. But while your at it, why don't you start one on who's going to cause the death of another jumper? Ya know, the guy that doesn't listen and does a 180 in the pattern taking out another jumper? Or the guy who tracks up the line of flight?

They would end up on the same list if talking to them had no effect. No need for multiple lists.

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aybe I'm just paranoid - but I don't see how starting a pool to see who wins as DGIT of the year when the safety of other jumpers could be/is at stake. I'd had to think that after being talked to 3 or 4 times all that was done was a bunch of folks making money off him.

I would think if it was that bad, they would ground them. That tends to be very rare though.

A lot of jumpers have ego issues early on in their skydiving career. A list like this is a way of working through that when all other efforts fail, like an intervention (as someone else mentioned), a last ditch attempt before giving up.

The objective is to save the jumper, not make money.

Derek

[veter_ 0]

There's a lot of garbage poured on me here, so let's set the record once and for all. Handle the truth, if you can.

I have 320 jumps.

I got my licence in October 2004.

I had an accident on my 42nd jump on Oct 23rd. Being too enthusiastic after getting my licence, I jumped that day in strong, very turbulent, cross wind. I miscalculated my landing and landed on the runway. I flared all the way down, but the down draft or rotor negated the flare. I hit the edge of runway with my bottom and hands, breaking tailbone and both wrists. I almost died that day. I lost a lot of blood and was airlifted to the hospital... I learned a painful, but valuable lesson.

I returned to the sky after 7 weeks. Since then, I made almost 300 jumps. I went to Eloy in December, Florida in February, Alaska in June, jumped at a few local DZs to gain more experience landing in different layouts and conditions.

I took Brian Germain's coaching lessons. I regularly spend a lot of time learning my canopy - opening high or doing hop-n-pops. I flew Spectre 210 until jump #175, and now fly Spectre 190, which puts my wingloading at a suggested 1.1 and 1.25 lbs/sq.ft., respectively, which fits just fine in my jump numbers.

I never do any dangerous landings or radical maneuvers near the ground. Never landed on front risers, nor have any interest in doing so. Always land in a standard pattern approach, respecting landing direction and stack order.

I now have about 200 nice stand up landings in a row. And those few non-standup landings before that were just minor mistakes. I land within 10-20m from my intended target 95% of the time.

I do love to kite my canopy after landing if and only if I know it can't possibly, ever endanger anyone else. I keep my head on a swiwel well before and after landing and know where other canopies are and put the canopy down if there's even slightest chance of someone landing close. Now that I mostly jump wingsuit and land last, it's absolutely safe to kite the canopy (again, I make 1000% sure I don't put anyone in danger by doing that). There's 100x more dangerous stuff going on at the Ranch all the time than my simple landings and canopy kiting.

I'm very conservative and not going to downsize anytime soon. In freefall, I follow the exit order and time separation religiously. When I'm tracking or flying wingsuit (my two favorite disciplines), I follow the pattern described in SIM.

I listen to my fellow skydivers and try to absorb as much information as possible -- if and only if they talk politely. If they don't talk politely from the start, they get equally impolite response from me.

The person who puts me on the death list one day asked me at the loading area about flight plan of my tracking dive. I replied that I'm going to track perpendicular to the jump run all the way, but she didn't like the exact wording (English is my 2nd language) and started ridiculing me, calling me motherfucker, etc. I told her to fuck off.

Since then, she got winded up against me and put me on the death list and spreads the lies that I'm a dangerous skydiver. She just can't let it go. I don't know what her problem is.

It's amazing that the people that don't even know me base their opinions on all these lies upon lies about me.

But it's even more amazing to hear nasty comments from people I respected. Good to know your deep motives now!

Obviously, "you can't handle the truth".

C-ya!

[Ladybug 0]

I heard about this post and was immediately incensed, but since reading it, I see that a lot of people have put a lot of thought into it.

That said, I have to agree with the people who think "bounce bingo" is sick! I completely understand the concept of peer pressure, and we all know that it works, but some ways seem to be better than others.

I like the idea of a "time out" when one of my kids is being an idiot, breaking the rules, endangering themselves or others... Grounding a skydiver for a brief period is a sort of "time out." Or time to think, or in this case - sulk. Don't tell me thay can just go to another drop zone - word travels fast. Even if he jumps somewhere else, everyone can still tease him about being in "time out." PEER PRESSURE

I like the idea of pre-filling out an incident report if shock value is what you're after.

And if the guy truly is an idiot, kick him/her off permanently. So, maybe he will go somewhere else. Let other dropzones know he's banned and why. Personally, if he is unsafe, I don't want him in the air anywhere around me!

As for a betting pool of any kind. That is the problem. Play a game with no money involved. Go public, make him look like an idiot... whatever. But the purpose of a bet is to win. Some say that people don't always collect the money - I should hope not, but does that mean that sometimes they do? That's the idea that bothers me. That's where it crosses the line from trying to "get through" to an ego-maniac to some form of entertainment.

Sorry if I offended anyone, and for what it's worth - I agree with everyone who said he needs to find out why he's on the list and make some changes.

BEER - Dawn

[frost 1]

do you want your milk and cookies now or later?

SoFPiDaRF - School of Fast Progress in Downsizing and Radical Flying. Because nobody knows your skills better than you.

[Ncrowe 0]

So what was the nickname she chose for you?

"Don't Mess Around With the Guy in Shades- Oh No!!! "

[ockers 0]

What a great post to read over lunch, most entertaining!!!
Can non US jumpers place bets? If so, my $10 is in the post

[Brian425 0]

The organizer did not put you on the list. All she did was take the money from whoever chose you. If she picked you, then she feels that you are at risk of getting hurt. Talk with the person who picked you, not the one collecting the $$. The person who picked you is the one making a comment about your safety.

I was there the day you got hurt and it bothered me. I really hate seeing people get hurt. It always makes me think very seriously about this sport.

I can understand people not liking you kiting your canopy. With 21 other jumpers in the air, it can make it difficult for others setting up to land. While you may be landing last on your load, it is possible that the other otter load is coming in to land. If there are 3 Otters running, loads are landing with very little time between.

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"I listen to my fellow skydivers and try to absorb as much information as possible -- if and only if they talk politely. If they don't talk politely from the start, they get equally impolite response from me."

You have to remeber that we have a VERY diverse group at the Ranch. There are many nationalities, religions, social and financial levels. What may be acceptable in the other skydiver's culture may be very impolite to you. Take it with a grain of salt. Remember, it takes 2 to fight. Most fights can be avoided by simply letting some small things pass.

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Since then, she got winded up against me and put me on the death list and spreads the lies that I'm a dangerous skydiver.

One thing I learned, don't worry about people spreading lies about you. If it is not true, soon enough the truth will come out.

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There's 100x more dangerous stuff going on at the Ranch all the time than my simple landings and canopy kiting.

I would be very careful about a statement like that. I feel that the Ranch is a safe place to jump. You must also think it is fairly safe. You are jumping there fairly often. If it is so dangerous, why not go to Crosskeys. They have lots of planes, plenty of jumpers and most of the things the Ranch has. There are several other DZ's around NYC.

Don't let it bother you so much. You don't have to be friends with everyone at the DZ. It's plenty big enough to go about your business with little interactions with the people you do not like. Just be polite and respectful and ignore the silliness.

Brian

The only time you should look down on someone is when you are offering them your hand.

[jtlmd 0]

I am laughing at this so hard I think I have torn something in my groin.

[nate_1979 9]

My big question for you is why didnt you post some of that info to start off with, try to defend yourself from the beginning reather than hide everything like you were flying a 2:1 wingloading with 50 jumps or something. All you did was tell us to "F*CK OFF" because you didnt have to defend yourself.. Well, you put a post up like you did, and guess what.. You'd better defend yourself because when there is a lack of information people will start drawing conclusions on this board. You shouldnt kite your canopy, however if that's the worst of what you do, you'll probably be off that list as soon as you clean up the attitude.

Sounds like your having a good time, ... Hope you get this all cleared up.

FGF #???
I miss the sky...
There are 10 types of people in the world... those who understand binary and those who don't.

[nael 0]

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Hope you get this all cleared up.

Do you really think he's going to be welcome at the Ranch after the bashing he has given the dz and the people who jump there regularly in this thread?

I know if that were my dz and my friends you were talking about I wouldnt be in any hurry to go out of my way to be friendly to you. Then again, maybe I'm just a bitch!

www.TerminalSports.com.auAustralia's largest skydive gear store

[kelpdiver 2]

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The list is a creative way to try and get through to someone. If you ground someone, they go to another DZ where you can't continue to try and get through to them. They become someone else's problem, again the easy way out. Groundings should be reserved for short 'wake-up' calls and for people that should not jump at any DZ, anywhere.

IMO, you misspelled 'creative.' It's D-E-M-E-N-T-E-D.

And it seems like more of a cop out than a grounding. Two of the people on the list are there for actions that threaten others, and at least in the past they felt that way about Veter too. If that's the case, then who cares if he's just going to another DZ? Ground em and protect your own. 30 or 60 days to start. It's at least as much of a wakeup call as finding your name on a femur/death list. Perhaps not as financially beneficial.

If I were to start acting badly enough to lead to such an inclusion, you'd be doing much more good for me by grounding my ass. It would still leave me with 2 equally accessible DZs, but would send a message. A listing...may actually just lead to a bunker mentality.

Whether I like it or not, I wouldn't complain if it was happening at one of my DZs. I just wouldn't pay any attention to it. I do know that considering legal action against it is about the worst possible solution to Veter's problem.

[Tonto 1]

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Being paid for someone's death whether it's mercenary or just gambling is totally disgusting to my mind!

What is that joy of having money for the death of somebody you personally know???

Umm. Heard of life insurance? People who are recognised as high risk pay more. Just about every wife/husband stands to benefit financially if one of them dies.

Do you think that practice is disgusting?

I don't think this is gambling. I think it's a game of skill. I can spot them months ahead. I wouldn't put something like this in place at my DZ though, but that's merely for marketing reasons.

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[StefB 0]

But the list doesn't work, when people don't have a clue what is the real purpose of the list.

Fortunately, veter_ asked and i hope he'll understand.

[Newbie 0]

Ok my thoughts on this game and list and it's usefulness aside, why are you on the list? Have you found out the specific reason(s)? From your post, you seem to either be pissing people off by kiting, or it had something to do with a lack of communication on heading for a tracking dive? It would be useful if you - or whoever put you on the list - could explain why you are there for a start.

If you know yourself to be safe, why are you so worried about being on this list? If you doubt something about yourself, i would ask those who put you on immediately why it is you are on there - after all, if you want yourself off, i would imagine they want you to ask so you can learn why you are there and what you are doing that is compromising yours and potentially others, safety.

I can see the list is rooted in a particular tradition, but i don't agree with it. If those who are running operations at the dz know someone could go in, or even worse, go in and take someone else potentially with them, they need to be grounded until they are stopped from doing whatever is unsafe and if they don't kicked off the dz and make local dz's aware of the guy and his issue.

"Skydiving is a door"
Happythoughts

[Erroll 49]

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I can see the list is rooted in a particular tradition, but i don't agree with it. If those who are running operations at the dz know someone could go in, or even worse, go in and take someone else potentially with them, they need to be grounded until they are stopped from doing whatever is unsafe and if they don't kicked off the dz and make local dz's aware of the guy and his issue.

I agree with this sentiment. Saying that someone has been warned and spoken to enough but he just won't listen is, in my opinion, a cop-out. That is like a judge telling a habitual criminal that jail-time doesn't work for him, so he may as well walk free, while the lawyers take bets on how long it is before someone takes him out. The habitual criminal spends time; the habitual DGIT should get/stay grounded.

[RhondaLea 3]

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I can see the list is rooted in a particular tradition, but i don't agree with it. If those who are running operations at the dz know someone could go in, or even worse, go in and take someone else potentially with them, they need to be grounded until they are stopped from doing whatever is unsafe and if they don't kicked off the dz and make local dz's aware of the guy and his issue.

Some people have attitude problems that can't be fixed, but peer pressure ("Bounce Bingo") is a much more powerful tool than authoritarianism ("grounding"). The former is also more in keeping with the Ranch's philosophy of "no rules."

Vote of confidence: I've never jumped at the Ranch myself, but I entrusted its denizens with the life of my daughter on her 18th birthday.

And I would do it again.

rl

If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

[Newbie 0]

How is that working in this case? The jumper just wants off the list and doesn't seem overly concerned about meeting any "peer pressure" reasons for being on there initally.

"Skydiving is a door"
Happythoughts

[Ron 7]

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2Bn, 325, White Falcon, and DAM proud of it.

I was B co. 2/325. Member of the 82d ff team.

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"blood on the risers" is GENERIC, not pointed at a SINGLE individual, and does NOT involve a "pool" on who is gonna bounce.

It is part of the "black death" aspect of the sport. It is not a very forgiving sport, and while we may focus on safety we can never forget the ground is waiting to kill. Some people forget that and their ego tells them they are not at risk.

This list is a way to smack them back into reality. They is something quite surreal about someone telling you they think YOU will die. You can blow a single person off when they say it "They don't like me", "They are jelious", "There pissed cause I am sleeping with their girl friend".

But when an ENTIRE DZ says you are gonna die...Well most people realize that there is more to it than personal issues.

For some it takes that much.

And NOONE gets on this kind of list if they listen. Its only when they think they know it all and its used as a last resort.

Now there is a black death humor part of this sport.

"Get in or go in"
"Blue Skies, Black Death"
"He bounced"
People with nicknames like "Divot, Crash, Hell the DZM of Skydive City's real name is David...TK stands for "Tent Killer."

It is a part of this sport.

In the Army we had such wonderful things as "Blood on the risers", "Kill, kill, kill with the cold blue steel", "Blood, blood, blood makes the green grass grow", "Napalm sticks to kids".

I bet you said all of these and more. Each of these were ways to KILL. Not just sit and watch a guy who is stupid die...But to KILL.

And I am sure you said them.

Why is that better?

No one wants someone to get hurt. But if they are gonna be really stupid and not listen....Sometimes they have to learn from being hurt....MAYBE knowing that everyone thinks they are a saftey risk will keep them from doingt he stupid things.

If not, I hope the person who picked them buys beer.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334