1.333 Wingloading with 160 jumps....

[packing_jarrett 0]

Wow this is still going on? Give it a break. I still don't understand how people can make such judgements without seeing him land in person. And I know you wouldn't be saying this kind of B.S. to him face to face!

I did find this a little amusing.

Quote

Honestly.. it's a little bit of a quick progression, but he's no packing_jarrett, is that guy still alive?

YEAH DUDE! Still alive and well. I probably lost a lot of people money for all the times they bet that I would die before my 16th b-day. Well here I'm 17 and knock on wood no skydiving/base jumping injuries (1000 skydives/ 100 base jumps). You think this guys progression is bad check out mine HERE

Na' Cho' Cheese

[billvon 2,400]

>what people should be saying to this guy is "BE CAREFULL, BE VERY
>F'ING CAREFULL, or it's going to really hurt."

Not to rag on you specifically, but this attitude, more than any other, is leading to canopy fatalities.

We have this culture of downsizing too rapidly, and compensating by "BEING REALLY F*KING CAREFUL." So Joe Wannabe gets his brand new Xaos-21 99, but it's OK because he's REALLY F*KING CAREFUL. He never turns below 500 feet. He always lands straight in.

And then one day someone cuts him off. He knows a collision will probably kill him. So he does the only thing he knows how to do - pull down a toggle. And he turns and hits the ground at 40mph. And afterwards everyone says "I can't understand it! He was so F*KING CAREFUL. How could this have happened?"

If you have to be really careful under a canopy, you should not be jumping that canopy. If anything, I would encourage people to NOT be careful. Try turning down low, small turns at first. Turn in the flare. Try a front riser landing. If you do it yourself, during a time you choose, one of two things will likely happen:

1) You will not screw up much and learn how to fly your canopy down low - and that might save your life later.

2) You might screw up and break your femur - and that might save your life because it will force you to upsize.

So to all those lowtime jumpers jumping heavily loaded canopies, I say wring the thing out. Get some instruction if you can. Don't land straight in 100 times in a row - try stuff, and learn how to push the canopy. If the idea of that scares the piss out of you, then get a canopy that does NOT scare you and do the same. The life you save may be your own.

[packerboy 3]

Lol... sorry to throw your name around there Jarett, but as far as I can remember yours was the most heated thread on this issue.

Before anyone goes digging, yeah yeah I'm sure I called him an idiot in that thread and now I'm blasting you for calling this guy an idiot. Hypocritical I know.

Jarrett was being much cockier and downsizing much quicker though, weren't you Jarrett?

I'm glad though that Jarett is still around here posting though and that noone made money of his bounce bingo pool.

Question Jarett... be honest. Since that thread, has there been any humbling moments that made you think back on your decisions and make you wonder in the slightest if it was the smartest choice? I'm just wondering because maybe this guy can and will deal and actually live through his purchase of this Sabre2, but you should let him know of your experiences and perhaps the unperceived situations that you have encountered by being in the exact same boat as him, what 2-3 years ago? Would you have any concerns whatsoever of someone following the same canopy progression as you have?

btw: Billvon, good advice on fucking around with the canopy and not playing it too tightass. You forgot to be nice and mention that he should do it when the ground is soft. And to be carefull that you are in your own airspace and not anyone elses while doing it!

Oh.. and go get yourself some good laundry detergent and a nice horsehair brush you can use to clean your rig.

Who's was the similar thread who later became a fatality? I'm curious to see what kind of advice he/she was given by the sky/forum gods and how they reacted to it.

--------------------------------------------------
In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock. ~ Thomas Jefferson

[crashtested 0]

Quote

Wow this is still going on? Give it a break. I still don't understand how people can make such judgements without seeing him land in person. And I know you wouldn't be saying this kind of B.S. to him face to face!

I did find this a little amusing.

Quote

Honestly.. it's a little bit of a quick progression, but he's no packing_jarrett, is that guy still alive?

YEAH DUDE! Still alive and well. I probably lost a lot of people money for all the times they bet that I would die before my 16th b-day. Well here I'm 17 and knock on wood no skydiving/base jumping injuries (1000 skydives/ 100 base jumps). You think this guys progression is bad check out mine HERE

Seen more radical stuff at a petting zoo

Seriously though when we going to go jumping
I'll Learn you a think or to. Might even get you on somthing that'll have your bollocks in your mouth

[airtwardo 6]

Anyone who just said "You're going to die, I'll be fine.."
and sits back, crosses their arms and watches it happen, should know that even if they couldn't stop the guy from jumping this canopy they still could have done something to increase the odds of survival.

Shit or get off the f'ing pot! The "You're an idiot, you are going to die!" argument is getting real old.

Quote

I think I can be credited with that line on this thread.


And yes... I'm an old gloom & doom fart.

But when I was learning the ropes, the biggest fear among the young guys was making sure you got both sides cut away at the same time and didn't hang the reserve up in the hardware.

Some where along the line we started losing more people to open canopies than pretty much all the other reasons combined.
When a major dropzone makes a policy in regard to landing patterns and places for specific 'groups' of jumpers to land, you should begin to understand just how serious this matter is.

Yeah I've been around the block a few times...and yes I understand the the sport changes, and small fast canopies are a big part of it, and are here to stay...

What I don't understand is why, as a safe and conservative sport jumper, I now have to be put at risk on many dives by people I don't even know, fucking around with parachutes that they don't fully understand, can't fly expertly 100% of the time because they are attempting things above their skill level, and have no business being on.

You say shit or get off the pot...
How exactly is someone supposed to help a person that pretends to ask for advise, but when that advise isn't what they want to hear...they not only disregard it but come up with a multitude of reasons that advise doesn't apply to them.

You can lead a horse to water...

Those of us that have been doing this for 20-30 years DO get tainted because we've seen it over and over...the young hotshot with 'mad skillz' last week, is laying there convulsing, blowing bloody foam bubbles out his mouth & nose this week.

I can't even tell you how many times the discussions at the dz following one of those trauma landings, begins with I tried to tell him...

Well...we're trying to tell him here, but from the tone and manner of his responses, it's likely just a waste of time.
(except for his last post.)

Do I seriously think or even hope this guy will die?

No, of course not...but as I said in a post back earlier in the thread, just 'maybe' if enough people that have matured past the 'look at me I'm cool, and bulletproof' stage, spotlight the the very real worst case scenario, it might sink in or at least spark some logical thought.

You said: ...but they didn't bounce and now have the knowledge and skills and hindsight to be able to help someone out in a practical sense. WELL F'ING USE IT!


BillVon has the expertise and took the time to outline some safe guidelines in regard to downsizing.
He's given his knowledge, but if it's ignored what power does he have to convince a person to do otherwise?

Want some advise from an old guy that's an expert an not getting hurt?
30 plus years skydiving and the worse injuries incurred were from the beer light...

1. Buy a parachute loaded @ 1:1 or less, and WEAR IT OUT.
- by the time you have 1000 or so jumps on it, you'll know what yer doing, why and how.

2. Drop down 20% and repeat step one.


Of course no one will seriously follow advise like that.
What do I know, I'm just an 'old guy'...that doesn't limp.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[packerboy 3]

Not getting the canopy was good advice in the beginning. Can't argue that.

However, it is advice that you and everyone else knew damn well that not just people with hotshot attitudes on the internet, but the majority of young jumpers today with the money to buy gear is not going to follow. You knew when he asked the question that he was going to do it. So you tell him not to do it.. good advice, needed advice.

So now he's gone and done it. Why bother even coming on the thread to say, you're stupid and you're gonna get killed? Who does that help? Noone. It helps your own ego, that's all. He hasn't followed your advice, now you have 3 options:

1.) Tell him that he is stupid and he is going to die.

2.) Tell him that he is stupid, but now that he has gone ahead and got the canopy, here is how he should go about trying to not kill himself or anyone else around him.

3.) Move on back to the bonfire where stupid questions need stupid sarcastic ass answering, and keep checking back to the incidents forum waiting for your chance to pop your head beck into this thread and say I told you so.

Which one is more constructive and follows the intent of this forum?

Who is being the troll?


All that being said.. the whole thing about you being OK when all was said and done WAS pretty funny.

--------------------------------------------------
In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock. ~ Thomas Jefferson

[ozzy13 0]

Quote

I would like to see a list of the canopy progression of some of the pro swoopers. I'd bet that sure there are some that are right off Billvon's list, but I'd also bet that a fairly large percentage of them were walking right in this guys shoes.


I know Marko personally and he is doing ok with this canopy. The problem I have is when he asked in this forum what do you think and then has a problem with what people have to say about it. He has not taken a canopy course and should.

With all the pro swoopers that you are taking about I dont think they posted here and asked what everyone thinks.
I think his progression is fast. If you take the right steps and be open to what people who were in the sport before you say and learn from it. Everyone is different and the equipment these days is better designed then say 30 years ago. That make a big difference if you ask me.

Never give the gates up and always trust your rears!

• Quote

[davelepka 4]

Quote

Anyone who just sais "You're going to die, I'll be fine.." and sits back, crosses their arms and watches it happen, should know that even if they couldn't stop the guy from jumping this canopy they still could have done something to increase the odds of survival.

You say that, but then you say..

Quote

I bet alot of these old timers that know what they are talking about

Which one is it? Is there anyway to mistake, "Your going to die" for anything but a disapproval of a situation? If a guy who knows what he's talking about disapproves of a situation, shouldn't you listen?

Quote

I'm willing to bet that if this guy were someone at your dropzone you would do your damndest to help him out, you wouldn't just write him off as dead. But why do people just HAVE to be dinks when they are on the internet?

If this guy was at my DZ, I would tell him the same exact thing. I would do him the favor of telling him the TRUTH. I have seen the end result of improper attitude and equipment choice, and it's not fun or nice or pretty. It's dirty and permanent and it sucks.

If a guy was about to step in front of a speeding bus, do you say, "Pardon me sir, there appears to be a bus headed your way"?

No you say, "STOP! LOOK OUT FOR THAT FUCKING BUS! STOP!". Why do you shout, and say it that way? Because it's important, and the message needs to be unmistakable in it's intent. The recipient needs to understand the gravity (no pun intended) of the situation.

Quote

Currency is the issue here IMO... 160 jumps in one summer would be one thing.

No, it would still just be 160 jumps. Currency does play a factor, but it in no way trumps overall jump numbers.

If you intend to push any limits in skydiving, you need both experience and currency on your side. Your limits will be pushed sooner or later, even if you try to avoid it. You'll have cutaways, you'll land off, you'll have close calls, all while trying to toe the proverbial line. This is the value of jump numbers. Once you are forced into these things, you learn from them.

To push too soon, to invite these situations to happen, is where you go wrong. If on that day, that jump where you really 'go for it' natural selection deceides that it's your turn for a mal, or a canopy collision, your fucked.

[dunderhead1 0]

8 pages with replies, what do all this pages tell us?? well, i got good news folks.......PEOPLE DO CARE!!!

[NWPoul 1]

Quote

Quote

Quote

What do you guys think about that?

What people think, what people say and what they do - is often quite different things:)
See this topic:
http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3044109;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unread

...What are you trying to prove and who are you trying to prove it too? Because no-one else really cares...

I don't trying to prove anything
Only trying to tell and only what I have wrote:
1. What pepole write here can be differ from what they actually think and how they actually do...
And those, who blame his WL@ his Jump## may made the same (or even more agressive) downsize
regarless of what is good and what is bad
2. Give the link, when he can see (roughly) what actually canopy progression and downsizing is among the modern population:)

Now the my wrong IMHO:
I don't have enough exp. to say that WL 1.3 @ 160 jumps is too high yet usually (when asked) advice to follow the +0.1/100 jumps rule...
but I just don't understand what the such outstanding difference between 1.1 and 1.3 WL
may be due to the fact that personally have such WL @ 50 junps and never was find that it's too agressive and wanted it lower (even when forest crash landing)
And I always was looking for exact facts of "1.3 at your jump # is bad" to support my point when I have say this to jumpers asking me for advice or forum's disscussion but I coudn't find it=/
nor in the statistic, nor in teory, nor in personal expiriense=/

Why drink and drive, if you can smoke and fly?

[happythoughts 0]

Any of my comments are based on two types of personal experiences.

First,

- Watching people hit trees, hangars, picnic tables, the ground, cars, vans, buses, tents, other people.
Sometimes, more than once in one day. (WFFC before some rules were made and enforced)

- Cleaning blood/parts off of all those objects.

- Personally seeing more injuries than I can remember or count. I actually don't know the number of people that I have personally watched break bones.
The last three femurs that I witnessed were all bad ideas that went bad.

- How many deaths last year from landing pattern screw ups and showoffs?


Second,

Some people learned. Thus, the value of the incidents forum.


So?

So, nobody has to listen to a single thing that I say.
However, I really dislike the theory that just because one person gets away with it (this year), they post it as a good idea.

[AggieDave 6]

Quote

How many of you Doom mongers have been on one i wonder?

Huh, I've taken Scott Miller's basic course twice, advanced course twice and have done 1 on 1 in air coaching with him. That doesn't including coaching from other top canopy pilots (and other local heros) I've done over the years.

Sort of like the person that linked to the downsize progression thread. As I've said before, I've made some really bad choices in my canopy progression. There is more then one instance over that progression that I should have died or been seriously hurt. Pure luck kept me healthy. Luck doesn't always work and I don't want to depend on it anymore. So my "canopy nazi" attitude has developed from my personal experience and from seeing too many friends buried 6-ft under for being 6-ft too low.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[crashtested 0]

Quote

advanced course twice and have done 1 on 1 in air coaching with him. That doesn't including coaching
Huh, I've taken Scott Miller's basic course twice, from other top canopy pilots (and other local heros) I've done over the years.
.

Well that makes one of you.. how about the rest!!

It CAN be a dangerous sport, and bad stuff CAN happen. It does not mean it will, if he is careful.
(pulling higher, having a bigger reserve, taking a course, jumping in sensible winds, checking out spots b4 jumping (and then telling the pilot to go around , rather him than me) He will reduce his chances of injury, which is the one thing we all can agree on>(no funnys)

Everyone in this sport takes risks, purley by participating in it, Jumping in winds which are to high, jumping with a rig which is 20 years old, not jumping with a cypress, not having a ditter, jumping with people not expericanced enough to be involved in your fs or 4 way, not wearing a crash helmet????(which i find more dangerous than 1.3 @ 160)
or even just spiraling down infront of me on my final as happened 3 weeks ago 4 times whilst state side. "Idiots".

i would continue............. however the sun has come out.. i'm off jumping, i'll leave this disscussion to you dedicated sport parachutists.

[The111 0]

Quote

But im definetly sticking with this canopy until i have around 5-600 jumps

Is this similar to how you bought a camera with like 100 jumps but weren't going to jump it?

And then you bought a camera helmet but weren't going to jump it?

And then asked for advice on how to jump your camera helmet?

www.WingsuitPhotos.com

[airtwardo 6]

Jumping in winds which are to high, jumping with a rig which is 20 years old, not jumping with a cypress, not having a ditter, jumping with people not experienced enough to be involved in your fs or 4 way, not wearing a crash helmet????(which i find more dangerous than 1.3 @ 160)

Quote

Comments like this reinforce the axiom someone posted in a different thread.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning-Kruger_effect

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

• Quote

[slotperfect 7]

In 1993 I was doing a demo in Concord, NH. I watched out the window of our jump aircraft as Ron and Karen Shelley, a father-daughter biplane/wingwalker team, crashed into the ground killing them both.

The next morning, the airshow staff called an unscheduled briefing. The FAA Examiner onsite stood up and asked us to be "extra careful" that day so we didn't have any more tragedies.

Leo Laudenslager, another aerobatic performer at that show - an incredibly skilled pilot and all around fine human being - instantly objected. He said that every performer on site built safety into their routine to mitigate the already elevated level of risk. Being "extra careful" translated to "extra likely" to suffer the same fate.

Making poor choices and being "extra careful" will not make you grow old in this sport - making the right choices (and listening to those who provide experienced advice in surround sound) does. I know because I have been in both pairs of shoes.

Thanks Leo . . .

Respectfully,

Arrive Safely

John

[markovwgti 0]

i cant own a camcorder if i skydive and dont have over 200 jumps? i bought it for my own personal use...i bought a helmet....with a flat side...so i didnt have to buy another one with a flat side once i started jumping a camera

i waited till 160 though

[billvon 2,400]

>It CAN be a dangerous sport, and bad stuff CAN happen. It does not
>mean it will, if he is careful.

As I (and several other people) have explained, being "extra careful" all the time can put you at GREATER risk - because you're not learning.

> Jumping in winds which are to high, jumping with a rig which is
>20 years old, not jumping with a cypress, not having a ditter, jumping with
>people not expericanced enough to be involved in your fs or 4 way, not
>wearing a crash helmet???

If you wear a helmet, use a cypres/dytter etc then you will generally be safer than someone who does not. However, if you are using them so you can freefly at 50 jumps (i.e. you are using them to be "extra careful" because you're doing something dumb) then they are actually making you a less safe skydiver.

>or even just spiraling down infront of me on my final . . .

Are you sure he wasn't being "extra careful" to not get downwind of his landing area?

[Para5-0 0]

Marko,
Now that you have shown interest in the Coach Course and signed up for it later in the month, I am curious about a few things:

1. How would you answer the same questions, posed to you by students just off AFF/AFP?

2. If a student came to you for coaching and asked to jump a camera with under 200 jumps? How would you respond?

3. If a student wanted to jump a rental 170 that put him at a 1.33? or say he had 100 or so jumps, What advice would you give him?

Remember, Students are smart they will know the path you took. Mostly because when you introduce yourself, you will probably tell the student a little about yourself, to include jump numbers.

Q) How can you safely advise a student to do something that you either do not beleive in or refuse to see as being the conservative safe route?

If youare going to be giving advice that condones fast downsizing and disregarding USPA recommendations where exactly do we stand pre-course?

I think you should ask yourself why you want to pursue this rating and if you EARN it then what kind of mentor will you be. Maturity is an important aspect of teaching in this sport, honesty is a close second specifically with yourself.

This is not a do as I say not as I do sport. Most people who have been in the sport for years have either gotten lucky and learned from their mistakes or followed advice of people who had made mistakes. No need to recreate the wheel here.

[michalm21 0]

Quote

i cant own a camcorder if i skydive and dont have over 200 jumps? i bought it for my own personal use...i bought a helmet....with a flat side...so i didnt have to buy another one with a flat side once i started jumping a camera

i waited till 160 though

Dude, I think The111 is correct. You type one thing, then another, saying you won't do stuff but then doing it anyway. Stop BSing and looking for reassurance.

Let's look at this statement:
" i waited till 160"

let's look at this thread:

Para5-0 wrote:
Feb 11, 2008, 8:37 PM
Post #18 of 194 (1943 views)

Re: [markovwgti] 1.333 Wingloading with 160 jumps.... [In reply to] Quote | Reply
Am I retarded or am I reading this right? 164 jumps 100 of which are freeflying. That leaves 64 of which 40 are camera.

You replied:
markovwgti
Feb 11, 2008, 8:39 PM
Post #19 of 194 (1935 views)

Re: [Para5-0] 1.333 Wingloading with 160 jumps.... [In reply to] Quote | Reply
i combined 40 camera jumps with sitflying lol

so you say you had 40 camera jumps at 160, meaning you started jumping camera around 120 jump mark. So which one is it? You waited till 160, huh?

Next, let's see at you search for camera equipment.
In numerous threads you stated that:

markovwgti
Sep 8, 2007, 7:58 AM
Post #4 of 21 (512 views)

Re: [LouDiamond] Final Poll guys !!! [In reply to] Quote | Reply
well i going to hit about 200 jumps in the next two months or so...i want to get ahead on buyign a camera and getting used to the features it has...i like to get a little head start on things...so will anyone help with some reccomendations...im not plannign on throwing a camera on y head right now...id like to buy the camera now and get it paid off asap!

So that was a false statement

markovwgti
Jan 4, 2007, 11:09 AM
Post #1 of 20 (774 views)

Optik Illusion Helmet Quote | Reply
I Just got off AFP and starting to do solo jumps...i need to buy a helmet and was wondering if the Optik Illusion is a good one to buy , i want a camera based helmet since i will be doing video when i get to the 200 jump minimum for flying with a camera.....so is this a good camera based helmet to buy??

So it did not turn out to be true either

markovwgti
Jan 2, 2007, 10:35 AM
Post #1 of 8 (449 views)

So what kind of digital camcorder to buy?? Quote | Reply
I just started jumping and recently got done with afp, im not gona buy this camera to jump withit tomorrow since i know i cnat, but i wanna buy something now just to video tape a few car races we have and random things, but when i do get 200 jumps i woudl love to videotape jumps with it, which sony camera shoudl i get, pc1000??, money really isnt an issue since i will finance it from best buy or circuit city!! :)

Same thing again

Just stop saying what you're not going to do, because you don't have a good record of credibility here...
and I thought that credibility was a given for a future nypd "finest"

/edited for clickies

[Orange1 0]

Quote

2. Give the link, when he can see (roughly) what actually canopy progression and downsizing is among the modern population

No, he can't. He can see what the progression is among that section of the skydiving population that is on dz.com and that bothered to post in that thread, which is not the same thing at all. Why don't you count the # of people who answered vs. the number of registered skydivers across all countries' parachuting associations? I'm sure it's a very low %. And don't forget that dead people can't post.

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[pilotdave 0]

And the thread is in the swooping forum. Bet we'd see some very different progressions if it was posted in the general skydiving forum.

Dave

[davelepka 4]

Quote

And don't forget that dead people can't post

That's the best part of your post.

I'll just add that people who put themselves in wheelchairs might be able to post, but I doubt they frequent DZ.com since they sat down for the last time in their lives.

[JohnDeere 0]

You both have it figured out but this guy will not listen until he is a wheel chair. But he is to much of a sky god for that to happen.

Nothing opens like a Deere!

You ignorant fool! Checks are for workers!

[Mozencrath 0]

Marko it's chops what up? I hope you know you are getting away with murder here! (don't take that the wrong way)

...Keep this in mind: I've been in this sport 6 years longer than you, have more jumps, WORK at the DZ you jump at yet I still did not start flying camera until OVER 200 jumps, and currently have a LOWER wingloading than you...I actually got rid of my Stiletto to fly a Spectre instead...

This isn't because I had some old staff member at SDLI in my ear ORDERING me to do those things, it's because I hung around those guys all day long and LISTENED to there suggestions and I took them very seriously. I realized that there is a REASON for all these seemingly conservative guidlines...They know what they are talking about. Believe me, I wanna fly a fast canopy and start super-swooping ASAP too, but there is a right and wrong way to do it is what I think is trying to be conveyed to you in this thread....Ultimately, the choice is yours though...Please don't think I'm coming down on you, just constructive criticism from someone who knows you and your capabilities.

We are very lucky to have people like Rich to give us this advice. Many DZ's do not. He, of all people, knows his shit frontwards and backwards and would not steer you wrong.

BTW, I also have ALOT of your landings on tape if you want them. Just let me know.