Green new deal equals magical thinking

[gowlerk 1,913]

1 hour ago, turtlespeed said:

I was around when the decisions were taken from us. - but I didn't have any choice about the converter.

Lots of things are mandated on cars. American law has shaped the design of cars around the world for decades. You choose catalytic convertors to complain about here? What about those expensive seat belts and airbags, or headlights and a horn, And tempered safety glass, who needs all this expensive shit! Where is my CHOICE?

Edited May 9, 2019 by gowlerk

[wolfriverjoe 1,340]

53 minutes ago, SkyDekker said:

So what?

You believe you should have a voice and a choice in every decision the government makes?

You think government is expensive and big now, wait till you think through what the requirements are to make that concept happen.

There's also the simple fact that the 'right' decision may not be the 'popular' one. 
The catalytic converter is a good example. It cost more. It required unleaded gas, and lead helped lubricate the valves in the car's engine.
Lots of people were opposed to it being required.

But the benefits of having them on every car are without question. Being able to breathe the air is a good thing. The air quality improvements since the emissions rules tightened up are striking. 

That doesn't stop some morons from removing or defeating the pollution control equipment, thinking that it gives better fuel economy. Stupid and selfish.

 

Of course, some folks are whining that "they didn't ask me".

Why should they have? Those folks have little or no clue what is best. They are shortsighted and aren't willing to do what's necessary to preserve the world for the future. That sort of thinking is pretty clear from what some folks on here are posting. 

Of course, those are often the same people who bitch about the 'government' making choices for them.

[turtlespeed 212]

1 hour ago, SkyDekker said:

So what?

You believe you should have a voice and a choice in every decision the government makes?

You think government is expensive and big now, wait till you think through what the requirements are to make that concept happen.

I believe you missed the point.

MAYBE - just maybe - we should be let to self govern.

[turtlespeed 212]

1 hour ago, gowlerk said:

Lots of things are mandated on cars. American law has shaped the design of cars around the world for decades. You choose catalytic convertors to complain about here? What about those expensive seat belts and airbags, or headlights and a horn, And tempered safety glass, who needs all this expensive shit! Where is my CHOICE?

It is such a shame that you are not being genuine.

I wholly agree with this:

""What about those expensive seat belts and airbags, or headlights and a horn, And tempered safety glass, who needs all this expensive shit! Where is my CHOICE?""

[gowlerk 1,913]

1 minute ago, turtlespeed said:

It is such a shame that you are not being genuine.

I wholly agree with this:

""What about those expensive seat belts and airbags, or headlights and a horn, And tempered safety glass, who needs all this expensive shit! Where is my CHOICE?""

If all those things are wrong in your eyes why bother worrying about the catalytic converter? How do you feel about the building codes that your home had to follow to keep you safer from fire and other hazards? Just how de-regulated do you want your world to be?

[turtlespeed 212]

Just now, gowlerk said:

If all those things are wrong in your eyes why bother worrying about the catalytic converter? How do you feel about the building codes that your home had to follow to keep you safer from fire and other hazards? Just how de-regulated do you want your world to be?

Very, Very, Very Deregulated.

 

I went well above the IBC when I built my house.  Designed it with a safety factor of 1.3.  (Both in structural, and Material flame spread types)

Metal Framing, Fire treated wood where blocking was needed.  Fire resistant wood in the trusses.   

I also installed a dry sprinkler system. (Not required, but really nice on the insurance) 

The only thing that I wavered on - was the insulation - I went with 100% sprayed foam insulation to complete the envelope.

 

That was my choice.  Rather - those were my choices.

Don't take my freedoms or my choices away from me, and we will get along just fine.

 

[gowlerk 1,913]

7 minutes ago, turtlespeed said:

Very, Very, Very Deregulated.

 

I went well above the IBC when I built my house.  Designed it with a safety factor of 1.3.  (Both in structural, and Material flame spread types)

Metal Framing, Fire treated wood where blocking was needed.  Fire resistant wood in the trusses.   

I also installed a dry sprinkler system. (Not required, but really nice on the insurance) 

The only thing that I wavered on - was the insulation - I went with 100% sprayed foam insulation to complete the envelope.

 

That was my choice.  Rather - those were my choices.

Don't take my freedoms or my choices away from me, and we will get along just fine.

 

Obviously you are well informed about building and made wise choices. What about those who really have no idea about this stuff. Without codes and inspections should they be left to fend for themselves? There is no shortage of shady developers and contractors willing to build fire traps for unsuspecting people to live in. Caveat emptor is good enough? Let the fire fighters deal with the fallout?

[yobnoc 142]

Yikes.  I halfway agree with you.  The half that doesn't says that your freedoms end where mine begin.  I should be free from having to worry about breathing the polluted air from the car that you just have to have because it's so friggen sweet.  And I don't want my kids to get hit by a projectile meat missile from a car accident if they happen to be near it because a car didn't have seat belts installed.  I don't want my neighbor's house that isn't up to code to have a gas explosion that injures or kills my kids while they're playing outside. 

That said: I don't agree with government regulation that tries to protect us from just being plain stupid or reckless.  Regulations should not exist to protect me from me; they should exist to protect me from you though.  I hope it's making sense.  Words are hard sometimes.

[gowlerk 1,913]

4 minutes ago, yobnoc said:

That said: I don't agree with government regulation that tries to protect us from just being plain stupid or reckless.  Regulations should not exist to protect me from me; they should exist to protect me from you though

And that is where libertarianism starts to get fuzzy. It's hard to protect me from you without protecting you from me. Laws are for society more than for individuals. But, although we are social animals we all have to look out for number one. And that is where the libertarian ethic breaks down for me. Want to be truly free? Try being a hermit. Otherwise you are part of a tribe and have to make some concessions to the group. How many, and will a King take advantage of you? That is our constant battle.

[yobnoc 142]

11 minutes ago, gowlerk said:

And that is where libertarianism starts to get fuzzy. It's hard to protect me from you without protecting you from me. Laws are for society more than for individuals. But, although we are social animals we all have to look out for number one. And that is where the libertarian ethic breaks down for me. Want to be truly free? Try being a hermit. Otherwise you are part of a tribe and have to make some concessions to the group. How many, and will a King take advantage of you? That is our constant battle.

Right, but I think we have entirely too many regulations that protect me from me.  That's where I get all libertarian.

[billvon 2,400]

1 hour ago, turtlespeed said:

I believe you missed the point.

MAYBE - just maybe - we should be let to self govern.

Absolutely.  You should have the right to govern yourself; you can stand around all day flinging your fists around if you want.  But your right to do that stops at someone else's nose (or lungs.)

For cars?  Seatbelts, OnStar type systems and airbags should be optional.  Brake lights, horns, emissions limits and brakes should not be, because they help keep you from harming others.  ABS and emergency braking?  Tough call.  Because while you have the right to risk plowing into a wall at 70mph, you do not have the right to risk plowing into a family of four at 70mph.

[gowlerk 1,913]

22 minutes ago, billvon said:

Absolutely.  You should have the right to govern yourself; you can stand around all day flinging your fists around if you want.  But your right to do that stops at someone else's nose (or lungs.)

For cars?  Seatbelts, OnStar type systems and airbags should be optional.  Brake lights, horns, emissions limits and brakes should not be, because they help keep you from harming others.  ABS and emergency braking?  Tough call.  Because while you have the right to risk plowing into a wall at 70mph, you do not have the right to risk plowing into a family of four at 70mph.

And while we are at it, why the hell should anyone be required to have a reserve parachute canopy to skydive?

 

Edit, I suppose you could make a strong case about falling meat bombs damaging other people and property......

Edited May 9, 2019 by gowlerk

[billvon 2,400]

3 minutes ago, gowlerk said:

And while we are at it, why the hell should anyone be required to have a reserve parachute canopy to skydive?

 

Edit, I suppose you could make a strong case about falling meat bombs damaging other people and property......

Yep.  But if you get a waiver and jump over an empty field, or you want to BASE jump in a deserted location, bombs away!

[headoverheels 291]

6 hours ago, turtlespeed said:

I wholly agree with this:

""What about those expensive seat belts and airbags, or headlights and a horn, And tempered safety glass, who needs all this expensive shit! Where is my CHOICE?""

The fact that they are mandated is what makes them so cheap for all of us.   

[kallend 1,623]

10 hours ago, turtlespeed said:

Nope - It was not something I was able to vote on - I had no voice and I had no choice.

Unless you were a member of the Electoral College, you had no choice of President either. The will of the majority of American voters has been overturned twice in the past 20 years by that outfit.

Edited May 9, 2019 by kallend

[kallend 1,623]

7 hours ago, billvon said:

Seatbelts, OnStar type systems and airbags should be optional.  Brake lights, horns, emissions limits and brakes should not be, because they help keep you from harming others.  ABS and emergency braking?  Tough call.  Because while you have the right to risk plowing into a wall at 70mph, you do not have the right to risk plowing into a family of four at 70mph.

But some poor bugger has the job of cleaning up your bloody mangled body parts, and the aftermath does incur real costs to society. So not wearing seat belts does negatively affect other people.

[turtlespeed 212]

10 hours ago, gowlerk said:

Obviously you are well informed about building and made wise choices. What about those who really have no idea about this stuff. Without codes and inspections should they be left to fend for themselves? There is no shortage of shady developers and contractors willing to build fire traps for unsuspecting people to live in. Caveat emptor is good enough? Let the fire fighters deal with the fallout?

I want the choice - 

I don't need a babysitter.

[gowlerk 1,913]

11 minutes ago, turtlespeed said:

I want the choice - 

I don't need a babysitter.

In the context of the questions I asked, that is not really an answer. It's more of a pout. I think maybe you actually do need a babysitter.

[DJL 232]

20 hours ago, turtlespeed said:

I wasn't given that opportunity.  

Someone made that decision for me - So - the answer is still - NO - we didn't.

WE are also not the EPA - The EPA is the the EPA.

But you also can't paint this as if a government agency isn't by the people for the people.

Edit: and to continue...

 

"Don't take my freedoms or my choices away from me, and we will get along just fine."

That's the meat of it and it's been covered above, if we, as a group decide on something it becomes "We" even if you don't like it.  We all want things to be cheap but Me individually doesn't want to be the only one paying for the thing that won't work unless everyone is on board.

Edited May 9, 2019 by DJL

[billvon 2,400]

3 hours ago, kallend said:

But some poor bugger has the job of cleaning up your bloody mangled body parts, and the aftermath does incur real costs to society. So not wearing seat belts does negatively affect other people.

So pay said poor bugger well, so that your foolishness results in profit for bugger.  That's a win-win.

[wmw999 2,122]

Turtle, there are many countries you can move to which don't mandate any sort of construction standards. You are welcome to build whatever quality you wish, as is everyone else. There are states in the US with fewer construction standards (NH comes to mind). Just like any project, you can pretty much have anything you want, as long as you don't mind the cost and/or schedule. Just as you can have whatever cost, you want, as long as you don't mind the product and/or schedule, etc.

But wanting what you want, when you want it, where you want it; well, that only works if everyone else gets it too. Which means the goobers get what they want, too (as long as they can pay for it -- this is the US, where the possession of money is the actual final arbiter of everything ).

Wendy P.

[normiss 622]

1 hour ago, billvon said:

So pay said poor bugger well, so that your foolishness results in profit for bugger.  That's a win-win.

Unless you want to pay him a decent wage. The outrage associated with pay rates .....

[SkyDekker 1,123]

15 hours ago, turtlespeed said:

MAYBE - just maybe - we should be let to self govern.

Why? All available evidence suggest you are not able to.

[SkyDekker 1,123]

3 hours ago, billvon said:

So pay said poor bugger well, so that your foolishness results in profit for bugger.  That's a win-win

PTSD doesn't go away with a higher salary.

[billvon 2,400]

13 minutes ago, SkyDekker said:

PTSD doesn't go away with a higher salary.

That's true for anyone who has to work in stressful environments - police, EMS, military, ER doctors.  Least we can do is pay them well.