billvon 2,400 #676 May 8, 2019 4 hours ago, Coreece said: And within 6 years or so GM is expected to sell a million EVs per year, which is still a very small part of the market, but even entry into that low level of mass market success/profitability will be due to reasons other than to "save the planet," and will need to be marketed as such.eliver it to your house for you? Definitely. And that's true of most technologies. No one buys a car with a catalytic converter "to save the planet" anymore. Quote Yeah, that market is also into essential oils, aromatherapy, himalayan salt lamps, detox foot pads, colon cleansing and refraining from eating anything labeled with ingredients they can't pronounce, like Dihydrogenmonoxide. And while that represents a strong niche of susceptible people willing to overpay for placebo, it's still makes up a very small part of the market. There are charlatans in any market segment, and gullible people willing to buy their stuff. Still, organic foods (not essential oils) are gaining market share rapidly. That's why even Wal-Mart and Costco sell organic foods - they want part of that revenue stream and don't want to be left behind. Quote To my original point, I think we'd be further along if it was not for the divisive politicizing of AGW that IMO has turned green tech marketing into a liability, so why take the chance? Because green tech has already taken off, despite divisive political attempts to demonize it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airdvr 197 #677 May 8, 2019 13 minutes ago, billvon said: No one buys a car with a catalytic converter "to save the planet" anymore. You say that like we were given a choice. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 212 #678 May 8, 2019 1 minute ago, airdvr said: You say that like we were given a choice. Or ever will be given that choice. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DJL 232 #679 May 8, 2019 8 minutes ago, airdvr said: You say that like we were given a choice. We DID have a choice and we decided we wanted them. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 212 #680 May 8, 2019 (edited) 4 minutes ago, DJL said: We DID have a choice and we decided we wanted them. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalytic_converter Looks like the EPA decided - not the consumer. ETA - EPA isnt elected - so no - we weren't given a choice. Edited May 8, 2019 by turtlespeed Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DJL 232 #681 May 8, 2019 Just now, turtlespeed said: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalytic_converter Looks like the EPA decided - not the consumer. We ARE the EPA. This is OUR government. We give them the power to make rules for our benefit. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Coreece 190 #682 May 8, 2019 20 minutes ago, billvon said: There are charlatans in any market segment, and gullible people willing to buy their stuff. Still, organic foods (not essential oils) are gaining market share rapidly. That's why even Wal-Mart and Costco sell organic foods - they want part of that revenue stream and don't want to be left behind. A couple weeks ago my regular unwashed and mutated dirty x-men celery jumped from $1.99 to 4.99, so ya, I bought the organic for $3.99. I don't particularly feel good about that. But the chicken noddle soup was good. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airdvr 197 #683 May 8, 2019 18 minutes ago, DJL said: We ARE the EPA. This is OUR government. We give them the power to make rules for our benefit. So you're a Nixon fan? Personally I question everything he put in place. Like most of our government it might have started out as a good thing but morphed into a giant, business eating monster. I think instead of term limits on the congresscritters we should have a limit on any department or program...say 15 years. Do we still need it? Do we still want it? https://dc.gov/directory Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,400 #684 May 8, 2019 45 minutes ago, airdvr said: You say that like we were given a choice. Sure you have a choice. There are emissions limits; you can meet them any way you like. EV's do not have catalytic converters. Hydrogen fuel cell cars (i.e. the Mirai) do not have catalytic converters. And if you could design a car that met emissions requirements without one, then you wouldn't need one with a gas car, either. There's absolutely no requirement to use catalytic converters on any car. It's merely the cheapest way to meet emissions requirements in most cases. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 212 #685 May 8, 2019 20 minutes ago, DJL said: We ARE the EPA. This is OUR government. We give them the power to make rules for our benefit. I wasn't given that opportunity. Someone made that decision for me - So - the answer is still - NO - we didn't. WE are also not the EPA - The EPA is the the EPA. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,400 #686 May 8, 2019 2 minutes ago, turtlespeed said: I wasn't given that opportunity. You decided to buy a gas car with a catalytic converter. You could have bought a car without one; you chose not to. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
normiss 622 #687 May 8, 2019 7 minutes ago, billvon said: You decided to buy a gas car with a catalytic converter. You could have bought a car without one; you chose not to. I still miss my '66 Ford Mustang Fastback with a 400hp full roller motor. Interestingly enough, those, as well as many other, pre-Cat cars are actually available. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,400 #688 May 8, 2019 Just now, normiss said: I still miss my '66 Ford Mustang Fastback with a 400hp full roller motor. Interestingly enough, those, as well as many other, pre-Cat cars are actually available. Yep. We have a fair number of them here. You can smell them coming from a block away. They are expensive to maintain - but if you want one, they are out there. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 212 #689 May 8, 2019 (edited) 31 minutes ago, billvon said: You decided to buy a gas car with a catalytic converter. You could have bought a car without one; you chose not to. Nope - the choice was unavailable. Not in any reasonable way. Edited May 8, 2019 by turtlespeed Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
normiss 622 #690 May 8, 2019 19 minutes ago, billvon said: Yep. We have a fair number of them here. You can smell them coming from a block away. They are expensive to maintain - but if you want one, they are out there. Which is the part I always find somewhat humorous. People complaining about the cost of new green tech..... I sold that Fastback for what I could buy a new Tesla 3 for. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,400 #691 May 8, 2019 2 minutes ago, turtlespeed said: Nope - the choice was unavailable. Not in any reasonable way. The choices were quite available. You chose to not buy one because there were other vehicles you liked better. Your money; your decision. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 212 #692 May 8, 2019 1 minute ago, billvon said: The choices were quite available. You chose to not buy one because there were other vehicles you liked better. Your money; your decision. No - Actually when I had to buy one with a catalytic converter - where I was - it was unreasonable. The choices just weren't there. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gowlerk 1,912 #693 May 8, 2019 8 minutes ago, turtlespeed said: Nope - the choice was unavailable. Not in any reasonable way. Your world is full of choices. You just don't want to be bothered doing what it takes to run without a catalytic converter. Move to Mexico and you can do whatever you want. But you want the advantages of the USA, so you live there and moan about shit that really doesn't make a lick of difference to you. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,400 #694 May 8, 2019 44 minutes ago, turtlespeed said: No - Actually when I had to buy one with a catalytic converter - where I was - it was unreasonable. The choices just weren't there. BS. You didn't bother to get one because other choices were easier and cheaper. Blaming the government for the consequences of your own decisions - isn't that what you attack liberals for all the time? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,623 #695 May 8, 2019 3 hours ago, turtlespeed said: I wasn't given that opportunity. Someone made that decision for me - So - the answer is still - NO - we didn't. WE are also not the EPA - The EPA is the the EPA. You didn't have much say in the Constitution and Bill of Rights either. So let's hear some whining from you about that. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 212 #696 May 8, 2019 2 hours ago, kallend said: You didn't have much say in the Constitution and Bill of Rights either. So let's hear some whining from you about that. Sorry - I wasn't there when you were. Was Twardo around with you? I was around when the decisions were taken from us. - but I didn't have any choice about the converter. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,400 #697 May 8, 2019 3 minutes ago, turtlespeed said: I was around when the decisions were taken from us. - but I didn't have any choice about the converter. Of course you did. You sound like a cranky Medicare recipient. "Well, I have no CHOICE but to use Medicare! The government has taken my rights away!" Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Stumpy 256 #698 May 8, 2019 12 minutes ago, turtlespeed said: I was around when the decisions were taken from us. - but I didn't have any choice about the converter. Sure you did, but... That would make too much sense. It would also demand a small amount of personal accountability. Sooooo - you can pretty much throw that out too. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 212 #699 May 8, 2019 2 minutes ago, Stumpy said: Sure you did, but... That would make too much sense. It would also demand a small amount of personal accountability. Sooooo - you can pretty much throw that out too. Nope - It was not something I was able to vote on - I had no voice and I had no choice. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,122 #700 May 9, 2019 1 hour ago, turtlespeed said: Nope - It was not something I was able to vote on - I had no voice and I had no choice. So what? You believe you should have a voice and a choice in every decision the government makes? You think government is expensive and big now, wait till you think through what the requirements are to make that concept happen. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
